Return to Transcripts main page

Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

NAACP Official's Parents Say She's White; Albert Woodfox Remains in Prison Despite Order for His Release; James Holmes Trial Discussed. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired June 12, 2015 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:30:41] ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Welcome back. So listen to this: Rachel Dolezal is a Civil Rights Leader. She's the head of the Spokane Washington Chapter of the NAACP and a teacher for African-American studies that Eastern Washington University and for years she has identified herself as black.

But according to her strange parents, she's white. And in fact this is a picture both pictures of her, first as a kid and now. Here's to look at her parents. You can see them in this picture from Dolezal's wedding. As you can see they're both Caucasian.

A CNN affiliate did some digging and here's her birth certificate listing them as her parents. But still Dolezal says she is African- American. Oh, really she considers herself black.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you identify yourself as an African American?

RACHEL DOLEZAL: Actually I don't like the term African-American I prefer black. And I would say that if, you know, if I was asked I would definitely say yes I do consider myself to be black.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: So the big question is why, why has she taken on? An African- American persona was it to get ahead, rip certain benefit of identifying as a minority, we just don't know her motive.

But look at this, when she applied for a job with a Spokane police ombudsman commission. She checked white and black plus her parents say she receive a scholarship to Howard University a predominantly African-American college.

And now her past is under investigation.

Joining me now to discuss, CNN Correspondent Stephanie Elam.

Stephanie you have been going through documents, you've been listening to different interviews. What have you learned about this woman?

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well this is a head scratcher of the day for sure on it, no doubt about it. And I should also just to be clear I'm a graduate of Howard University which is a historically black college based on Washington D.C. She went to the grad school there. And I -- she point out that the graduate schools are much more diverse.

And according to her parent's they don't believe that she was deceptive in applying for that. They said that she applied and has her father put it that probably eyes pop and jaws drop when she showed up.

That may or may not be the case. It is not against the rules to be a white person interested in African-American studies. It's not against the rules to be a leader of NAACP and not be black either in fact the NAACP coming out and supporting her today saying that they stand behind her, interestingly, you know, though in their note they say that she's enduring a legal issue with her family.

That doesn't seem to be quite clear of what that means. But her parents were saying that this is a case of she did want them around because she messed with their image. It's also very interesting story there. But there's also another issue that is worth pointing out, she is the child of her parents. But her parents also adopted four black children. And that is something that her parents I think may have played into it.

Take a listen to what they had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUTHANNE DOLEZAL: Rachel has always been interested in ethnicity and diversity and we had many friend of different ethnicities when she was growing up.

So I didn't start with the four adopted children of color. It was probably that added to her passion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ELAM: And the idea that she may have been decided to become at some people on Twitter have been saying become transracial and not just be interested in the culture. But then you decide that she was going to be black is the issue that people just don't understand because some people are pointing Ana, she may have been more effective. But she have just said that she was a white woman and cared about these issues instead of lying about it.

CABRERA: It is such a head scratcher.

Stephanie Elam, thank you so much for your reporting.

CNN did reach out to the NAACP for reaction. Here's just a portion of the organization statement. "Rachel Dolezal is enduring a legal issue with her family and we respect her privacy on this matter. One's racial identity is not a qualifying criteria or disqualifying standard for NAACP leadership. The NAACP Alaska-Oregon-Washington State Conference stands behind Ms. Dolezal's advocacy record."

[12:35:00] Up next much more on this Washington State NAACP leader who claims she is black while her parents say she is white.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: An investigation in to threats made against her uncovered the details about her ethnicity.

And joining me now to talk a little bit more about this is Gerald Hankerson he is the president of NAACP for this region, the Alaska- Oregon-Washington State area conference.

He is joining us on the phone. Thank you so much for joining us Gerald we appreciate it. What's your reaction to this news about Rachel Dolezal?

GERALD HANKERSON, PRES. ALASKA, WASH STATE NAACP: First of all thank you for having me. It's really unfortunate to have this conversation like now, strictly talking about the overall hundred (inaudible) she is. NAACP have there's been known as diverse organization that consist of leaders from all different ethnicities. Of course black, Hispanics, Asians, you know, Native Americans and yes even white, would historically have always been an organization that consist of other various group of people from all across America.

[12:40:07] And so unfortunate considering that, all the things that yell (ph) as a society that's going on today. We're having a discussion about the ethnicity of one of our leaders in Spokane Ms. Dolezal.

CABRERA: You know, some people might say, well her heart perhaps was in the right place, she is the great advocate for African-Americans.

Clearly she feels connected to the community. Does that make her deception however any less harmful?

HANKERSON: Well, for us, we are civil right organizations first, which means that we represent all civil right issues regardless of a person's ethnicity. And the quality of the work that she have done to elevate the issues of civil rights in other region, it's what we applaud. The fact of having a conversation and discussion about ethnicity, this not an important to us, it's about dealing with the issues of a deals of society that our leadership have projected from quality work that help i that region and as NAACP we have a civil right organization first and foremost, which we rendered in folks from all of different nationalities, so that's what we value as NAACP leadership, dealing with those issues and tighten (ph) for the quality life, for people all across America.

CABRERA: How do you see this controversy, so the speak impacting the work that you're doing in that region?

HANKERSON: We'll it's so unfortunate that this became the conversation about her ethnicity. But we're dealing with issues when it comes to police accountability all across that country.

The housing issues -- the civil rights issues that's we're dealing with in America, obviously it's a detraction, so I'm of all the real stuff that's going on the community, where a communities have been disenfranchise, change of side, for me it's more important that I'm dealing with today of our young student being able to graduate, who's been denied outs (ph) to the graduate because they feel it shall TE (ph). You know, those are the things that the work we do, another to be a detracted by that fact that someone's ethnicity is doing at the front of the senate here. But we don't know the genealogy of half the people in America and NAACP do not do a genealogy search on what a person ethnicity is when they becomes the leaders in our civil rights.

So it's unfortunate that this had become a trending conversation when there's a lot more important things that's going on in America that we should be better addressing.

CABRERA: All right Gerald Hankerson, the President of the NAACP again for that region in Washington, Oregon and Alaska, we appreciate your time.

I also want to bring in Marc Lamont Hill Commentator for CNN who's also a professor at Morehouse College, Marc what's your take on all of this?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And this is one of the most puzzling cases that I have seen in a very long time.

And yes, I agree that there are more pressing issues in the world, than one individual who decided to misrepresent herself. But it is part of the story and it is part of a broader conversation in this nation about race. You know, historically people have lied about their race to get away from social stigma, to get away social pain and social ministry they don't want to get lynched they want to get jobs, house and health care et cetera. This is somebody who's lying into marginalizations, someone who's lying in this social misery it were. So it's a curious case. But I don't think that we should reduce this to the level of her individual choice.

Other people were hurt by this, when you take job in an organization, we did tell thatn we are one race and you're not, you're misrepresenting yourself and not -- and you're denying people the right to make their own choices, when you take a faculty job at a school, that already has very few African-Americans.

You're taking a job from someone who might actually be black and who doesn't have the luxury of opting out of their blackness or opting into their blackness the way this privileged white women can.

If there a lot of curious circumstances, some of it is about her individual phycology and her own family drama, I don't want to deal with that, I don't want to deal with the substance of question of what is it mean to talk about race in this country as a social construct. But also it's something that's very real to people in the ground.

CABRERA: It certainly opened up the conversation about race. And I want to show you, a twit that really gets to the heart of what we're discussing and this is a quote. "There are white people telling black what race is and who can and cannot be black, that is what's happening right now #RachelDolezal." Marc does that resonate with you?

HILL: Oh it' absolutely does, I mean one of the things that I found troublesome about her response was, we're all from Africa race is very complicated in nuance, is that we as a world aren't smart enough to understand race sufficiently so that she can be black. The truth here is that she is a white woman, is exercising extraordinary privilege to try on blackness as some people to try on everything but the burden and to decide when and how she wants to be this thing that she can always walk away from, I can't walk out being black.

I can't walk out of the social demerits that accompany my blackness and say well she can. And so for her to control that ironically is an exercise of the very white privilege that she spent so much time in here professional career trying to dismantle.

So I reject her premise on its face. That's not to deny the work she's done, that's not to deny her character at the level of advocacy and activism, I'm not even saying she shouldn't be president of the NAACP at branch, I mean I don't play with white people who run NAACP chapters. My issue with her is that she lied and misrepresent herself and is now trying to convince us of something else it's just not the reasonable.

[12:45:07] CABRERA: All right Marc Lamont Hill, we'll have to leave it there, thank you so much for sharing your thought, good to see you.

HILL: Pleasure.

CABRERA: But why don't we gets bent (ph) in the James Holmes trial with jurors seen via aftermath of the massacre and hearing haunting testimony from his former girlfriend. That's next.

(COMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: It's been a climatic week in the theater shooting trial in Colorado with the jury getting a very detailed and disturbing look at the aftermath of the massacre inside the crowded movie theater a couple of years ago.

A video showed in court yesterday gave the jurors the tour of a horrific crime scene showing bodies thrown on the theater floor, some of the victims bodies were position as if they were trying to escape. And jurors also heard from James Holmes ex girlfriend, a fellow graduate student Gargi Datta.

And defense attorneys asked her about this g-mail message that Holmes wrote to her while they were dating. This is back in March that says, "You take away life and your human capital is limitless."

We were hoping the play some sound from here testimony unfortunately technical issues didn't allow that.

But joining me to talk more about case is CNN Legal Analyst Paul Callan and Criminal Defense Attorney Diana Aizman. [12:50:04] And I've been sitting in on this trial when I'm in Colorado my usual stopping ground. And I do know that, I mean she goes on to say, when she saw that message she didn't think much of it she thought he was may be joking. She recommended that he see a psychiatrist, a kind that it's almost as a joke back to him in her response.

What do you think, Paul, that statement has in this case as far as the evident, is that a lot of weight that the jurors will put behind that?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, Ana, when you see the prosecution offering this statement and you say, "Well, why would they do that? How does that help prove that he was sane?"

CABRERA: Because it doesn't even make sense, to some degree. So the defensive phase...

CABRERA: ...insanity.

CALLAN: But here's what they're going to say at the end of the case, they're going to say he killed these people with this bizarre thought in mind that he absorbs their human capital. I would say it's like absorbing their human spirit.

And if I were the prosecutor, I would say that's no different than in a robbery, stealing somebody's money and killing them. And you know what that demonstrates? You understand the difference between right and wrong. Except his robbery is of human capital as supposed to money than an ordinary criminal might do.

So, I think that's how prosecutors will say. He's not insane. He understands the difference between right and wrong.

CABRERA: Diana, do you agree?

DIANA AIZMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree, actually. Also, I think that it's very helpful that the girlfriend thought it was a joke, or she didn't take him seriously. She didn't obviously have concerns about his mental health. She suggested that he mentioned him to a psychiatrist.

To have that level of not understanding the difference between right and wrong, you would need such a high level of demonstration of mental illness that it would be something that would be very obvious to somebody that he's in an intimate relationship with.

CABRERA: We mentioned all of the crime scene video that they saw just yesterday. We're on the 7th week of the trial. These jurors have already seen pictures inside the theater. They've seen the riddled pleas (ph) in those photographs. They've seen autopsy pictures. They've heard from more than 50 victims who live through it. So the prosecution seems to continue to take those jurors back inside the theater.

Strategically, what is that do?

CALLAN: Well, it reminds me about the trial on the Boston Bombing case, the Boston Marathon Bombing case, where the carnage was so graphically shown to the jury. They're trying to just create a feeling on the part of the jurors that he should be convicted. He's very, very dangerous.

And I think, in reality, in insanity cases, a lot of times jurors really think the psychiatrics stuff a bunch of mumbo-jumbo. And in the end if its carnage and the guys are threat to the community, he's probably going to get convicted. And I think you're going to see that happen here.

CABRERA: Diana, earlier this week we heard from a second quarter point of psychiatrist who did the mental evaluation of Holmes, who agreed with the first psychiatrist in that the findings were -- he was sane at the time of this crime back in 2012.

So, if you're to defense at this point, are you just focusing on the death penalty versus life in prison in trying to spare his life?

AIZMAN: If you're the defense, your goal is to raise a doubt anywhere that you can. And the doubt has to be to the issue of his sanity. There's no doubt that he was in that theater. There's no doubt that he would -- the person who actually pulled the trigger.

So the only option for the defense is to place doubt in that minds of those jurors, that these experts got it wrong.

It's the only option for them to be able to prevail.

CALLAN: And it might be. They maybe citing the death penalty more than a...

CABRERA: Than trying to prove.

CALLAN: ...innocence. Yeah, at the beginning of the case.

CABRERA: Yeah, it's more on the focus on the sentencing...

CALLAN: Yes.

CABRERA: Maybe.

CALLAN: Exactly.

CABRERA: But just stick on in the next few weeks.

All right, Paul Callan, Diana Aizman, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it.

Well prison is that not enough, but solitary confinement is worst. Now, imagine a lifetime in solitary for a crime you're not convicted of committing. When we comeback, a long road to freedom that may be nearing an end.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:57:29] CABRERA: In Louisiana, a prison inmate, who spent 43 years in solitary confinement, that's right, 43 years to be a freeman just hours from now.

Albert Woodfox is the last of the so-called Angola 3 still locked up in a tiny cell by himself all day and night, with no valid conviction against him.

Well this week, a federal judge ordered the state to release Woodfox once and for all.

This might be the day.

CNN's Nick Valencia is watching from CNN Center in Atlanta. Nick bring us up to speed on how we got to this point in the story and what's going to happen today.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well in 1972, Albert Woodfox was convicted of the stabbing death of a Louisiana State Prison Guard on April 17th that marked 43 years that he's been in solitary confinement or some type of isolation. His fate now Ana is in the hands of federal appeals court.

On Monday, as you mentioned, a U.S. district court judge ruled that that man that you're looking at there should not face a third trial. His conviction has already been overturned twice.

On Tuesday, adding to the nuance and the complication, Louisiana state attorney general filed an emergency state that expires at 2:00 P.M. Eastern, so just in about an hour from now.

I just got at the phone with the Angola State Prison who said that they would be given a heads up either way if Woodfox is allowed to be set free or if he will remain in jail. They say they have not received that call, just about an hour left on that.

Woodfox is a part of so-called Angola 3. And one of those man was released back in 2013, died just a couple of days after his released.

Robert King is another one of those men called Angola 3, those men that you're looking at there on your screen. He wasn't charged or implicated but linked to the murder of that state prison guard.

And Robert King spoke to our Christiane Amanpour this week and said that Woodfox has been in this position before.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT KING, FORMER ANGOLA 3 INMATE: I spoke with Albert yesterday, I believe. He called me and we spoke. And I think he's just -- he's one of us before. But he is, you know, optimistic because, you know, we've been here before and we've been let down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: Now critics of his incarceration say that the only reason Woodfox is in jail is because his involvement of the Black Panthers. He, along with those two other man, were the founding members of the Angola Chapter of the Black Panther party. Ana? CABRERA: What a journey for them. Thank you so much, Nick Valencia. We appreciated it.

And thank you for being here on this Friday. I believed Ashleigh is back on Monday. Brianna Keilar takes it from here. Have a great weekend.

[13:00:07]