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Dallas Police Headquarters Attacked; Manhunt for Escaped Killers Follows 700 Leads. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired June 13, 2015 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:02] BRIAN FALLON, PRESS SECRETARY FOR HILLARY CLINTON: You know, we have a lot of enthusiasm right now that will watch and party for the speech. All across the country. Tonight Hillary Clinton will actually be dialing into an organizing meeting in Iowa so be there in person participating and then we will have similar meetings happening in all 435 congressional districts across the country.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: OK.
To energize those supporters of Hillary Clinton, and then coming on in the New Hampshire, South Carolina, Nevada, I think you will see high spirited, high energy events.
WHITFIELD: Fantastic. All right, Brian Fallon, thanks so much for taking the time. Press secretary for Hillary Clinton, appreciate it. Glad you stepped in front of the camera for us. Good to see you.
FALLON: Thank you for having me.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
WHITFIELD: All right. Hello, again, everyone. Thanks so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.
Much more straight ahead whether it be on the political campaign trail and then this topping our news right now. In Dallas police say the suspect in an attack on the Dallas police headquarters is now likely dead after being shot by officers. They have surrounded his armored vehicle in a lot right there. His blue armored vehicle is what you see in the distance there.
We just learned from Dallas police that two additional pipe bombs were found in that van, and police say they are trying for what they call a safe detonation of any explosives by using a water charge in the vehicle. There is a robot on the screen there.
Here's how all of this began in the early morning hours.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guys. Guys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's crazy. Holy (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: All right. This is how it started. At about 1:30 Eastern Time, a suspect right there in that blue armored vehicle with automatic weapons according to go police and explosives opening fire on the police department. Windows were shattered and walls were riddled with bullets, as you see right there, but officers shot back, forcing those inside the van to flee. Still unclear how many people in that van, but as we know right now at least one suspect, at least one gunman. There could be more.
Police then cornered that vehicle at a parking lot after this kind of a chase through the city of downtown Dallas there before that van was even seen ramming into a police vehicle and then apparently 18 miles and many minutes later, we understand a SWAT team was called in and shots were fired into the suspect's vehicle there.
The suspect in the van had told police earlier that his name is James Boulware and that he was angry because police took away his child and labeled him a terrorist. Police also saying they were familiar with that name because of other prior incidents largely involving a domestic problem.
And again, live pictures right now in Hutchins, Texas, which is about 18 miles or so outside of Dallas where it all began at 1:30 in the morning. Now many hours later that van is still there. There's a robot nearby to try to discern whether that vehicle could be booby- trapped since there were other pipe bombs that were found early on in the hours of this process. And then still unclear whether the suspect, whether it's one or more than one, and whether at least one suspect has been shot.
Nick Valencia is joining us by phone. He is in the Dallas area.
So, Nick, what's the latest on what they're trying to discover in this van?
NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Fredricka. The latest here is that there's still a blockade up, crime scene tape. We're staring at the scene, 300 yards away still. Police won't let us get any closer. So still very active in here, though. They say that the Dallas Police Department headquarters is no longer a danger. That facility has been cleared.
What we're starting to try to uncover here is this motive. And at this hour, it seems that that motive is still unclear. You mentioned that the suspect James Boulware, 35 years ago, he has a criminal history, extensive criminal history, arrested multiple times on assault charges back in 2013 according to local reports. At one point he was also charged with essentially choking a family member, causing bodily injury to another.
He had made threats in the past against his family and the community as well. And an initial conversations with police he told them that they took his child, and that they accused him of being a terrorist. The main concern after the shoot out and talk with police was of course those suspicious bags, at least four bags were found at the scene. Two of them self-detonated as the police were working with that bomb technician to remove those bags from the scene.
We're here now and as I mentioned it seems to be all clear. The police will not allow us to get any closer. They say the threat to police department headquarters is over at this time. What we're told is officers are still working with bomb technicians to detonate specific portions around that vehicle, that armored vehicle that he used at around 12:30 Saturday morning when he came to the police headquarters.
[13:05:21] Had a confrontation with police, began ramming his car into squad cars, eventually leading police on a chase and now what we're seeing the result of that. Bomb squad, bomb technician still working with police officers to figure out if that vehicle poses any other threats -- Fred.
WHITFIELD: And, Nick, initially there were conflicting reports. Some eyewitnesses thought there were at least four people in this van exchanging gunfire with police. Then later on police led people to believe there maybe only one suspect. That by the name of James Boulware that you were just describing. So as of yet, again, they have not gotten in the vehicle to see exactly who is there. But is there a more definitive feeling from police that they're only dealing with one person?
VALENCIA: Initially we were told as many as four suspects were involved. They didn't mention whether those suspects were linked some way or perhaps there physically. And just looking at the video from that amateur video shot from one of the high rises around here, it appeared that there were more than one -- that there was more than one person in that car, but at this time what we're told that it's likely one suspect, and that suspect is likely dead. That James Boulware, 35 years old.
We have yet to confirm officially if he has passed. He was killed by SWAT snipers but we're told now that it is likely one suspect involved in this very scary scene here over night in Dallas. Very tense situation over night. No one was injured other than the suspect. And for that people are very thankful especially the police officers who came under fire just about 12:30 local time -- Fred.
WHITFIELD: OK. And, Nick, quickly, do you know anything about these two people that we now see walking near the vehicle? For a very long time we weren't seeing any bodies near that vehicle, only the robot. Does this indicate anything different now? That --
(CROSSTALK)
VALENCIA: I wish that I could tell you. And I'm not able to see the video that everybody else is watching on their screens. But I wish I could tell you. I have no information on that, Fred. I'm sorry.
WHITFIELD: OK. Good. All right. Well, Nick, when you hear anything else as we're reporting there in Dallas, let us know. Thanks so much. We're going talk more about this with our panel now. Joining me from
New York, Jonathan Gilliam, a former Navy SEAL and former FBI special agent. Also in New York, former ATF agent Matthew Horace and here in studio with me CNN legal analyst Phillip Holloway. Plus we're also joined by criminologist Casey Jordan via Skype in New Milford, Connecticut.
All right, good to see all of you.
Hey, so, Jonathan, let me go to you first because earlier when we just saw that vehicle and that live shot. We saw the robot. You had talked about if there are indeed explosives in that vehicle. It's difficult to know, you know, the perimeter that would be set to keep people away from that vehicle because you just don't know the trajectory if indeed there were explosives.
What does this tell you now that you see two people walking nearby? Does that seem to you an all clear, no explosive likely in that vehicle?
JONATHAN GILLIAM, FORMER NAVY SEAL: Well, you see right there when they just panned out. That's an excellent -- right as you're making that point. I was actually looking up the different ranges for the perimeters. And for a van you're looking at a 200 -- basically a 200- foot perimeter for -- where it's extremely deadly and then you go to 2700 feet where you want to get all civilians back. Now the individuals that we see there, I can't tell from this shot if those are bomb techs.
WHITFIELD: Right.
GILLIAM: If they are bomb techs, they're going to have basically a suit on unfortunately it's more of a casket than anything because if it's a large bomb, it's just going keep the body intact. But smaller bomb, if they have pipe bombs, those suits are very effective at protecting the individuals on the inside. But I couldn't tell if those were bomb techs or not. I still see a robot out there right now, though.
WHITFIELD: Yes. And then, Matthew, is there anything that you discern? And I think we are seeing movement of that robot right now just to the right of that van. There we are. Yes, we are seeing it there. What do you discern from this image?
MATTHEW HORACE, FORMER ATF AGENT: Well, they're still trying to determine what is -- where is the suspect if he is in fact deceased or not. And that robot was able to do certain things over the course of the last several hours.
WHITFIELD: Like what in your view?
HORACE: Mainly peel back certain aspects of that vehicle and determine if there were explosives there. Remember, the negotiators indicated that he -- that the suspect indicated that he had C-4. C-4 is a plastic explosive, is malleable, it's adaptable, and it could have been C-4 in a car door, and a bumper anywhere. Now they need to determine what type of explosives inside of that car. Now one pound of C-4 could blow that vehicle up just as a reminder.
[13:10:04] WHITFIELD: My gosh. OK. So still very volatile.
HORACE: Yes.
WHITFIELD: OK. So, Philip Holloway also with me here. In your view, again, we don't really how many people are involved here. We heard initially witnesses thought there were four people. Police expressed that there might be four and then they dialed it back to possibly one. But in your view you still believe an operation like this has now spanned 18 miles.
It was very courageous and brave if not crazy as well to open fire on the police headquarters, and now you have this scene, this standoff. So you believe these are the hallmarks of more than one persons' involvement.
PHILIP HOLLOWAY, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, first off, I want to say I think the Dallas Police Department did an excellent job handling this situation. And we're very fortunate that no one other than the suspect was injured. Yes, I think that it's very likely that he had at least some degree of assistance. These bombs that detonated immediately when the robot made contact with them. That suggests that there might be some level of sophistication, Fred, that may go beyond what this person is capable of. That's sort of an educated guess but it's obviously something that investigators are going to be looking into in the very near future.
WHITFIELD: Dr. Casey Jordan, very little is known about this suspect expect what we have been able to report, James Boulware. Police say they are familiar with the name. They're familiar with other allegations of threats to family members and community. That he's roughly 35 years old and possibly, based on other reports, he may have made a purchase of this vehicle just days ago from someone in Georgia. But that still hasn't been confirmed.
So based on the little bit of what we know so far, how do access this individual, what motives if indeed this is the person and these are the facts about why this was carried out?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, from a tactical perspective, it may seem that there's more than one person, but from a criminological perspective, this man is acting alone. And he would be someone who actually failed at committing mass murder but that was his intent obviously. And his target was the police. But really he fits a profile of the family annihilator, a man who's had a history of domestic violence and here is the key, a loss of custody of that child is probably what put him over the edge.
I'd be very interested to know what's been going on in his life and the two years since it was brought up, and all of those assault charges, choking a family member. We get the feeling that he is extremely self-righteous. And he scapegoats. He blames the police and probably CPS for his losing his children or his child. Self righteous and he's what we call anomic. He's out of control because he has no more control. But also he's insulted. He says the police called him a terrorist.
This is a man who thinks he's right, is very upset with the police because they think he is wrong or bad. And he's going to prove to them who has the upper hand.
WHITFIELD: OK. Hey, Jonathan, I want to ask you something. Well, all of you in particular. But, you know, we're looking at this image still of this blue van and reportedly there was a van of very similar description that was sold out of Newnan, Georgia, just days ago. June 10th in fact. Just a couple of days ago.
And we understand Newnan, Georgia, police are now telling us -- and there's the vehicle which was also described as a zombie apocalypse assault vehicle. But Newnan police telling us here at CNN that they have not been contacted by Dallas authorities or anyone as it relates to what is unfolding in Hutchins, Texas.
So, Jonathan, is that unusual to you that even as a precaution that perhaps they would be contacted to see if there are any -- if any relation between a vehicle that was sold that fits that description looking very similar to this vehicle now in Hutchins, Texas?
GILLIAM: Well, I'm not sure where that information came from that that vehicle was sold. I don't know if that's something that a witness told the press or where that came from. But I'm sure that investigators as they get the -- basically the VIN number off that van, they'll be able to start really finding out the history of that vehicle and where it came from.
If he's destroyed the VIN number, once they clear the van they can go and get serial numbers off of the engines, off the axle, and inside the vehicle itself. There's all kinds of serial numbers that you can trace to see where that vehicle's VIN. So I don't think it's going to be long until they get to that point.
The other thing I wanted to say, when she was just talking about how this guy was blaming the cops, or calling him a terrorist, and -- I mean, it's now confirmed that the police were right for calling him a terrorist because this is basically what he's done, is inflicted terror on the community.
WHITFIELD: And so, Matthew, as investigators perceive, try to figure out who this person is, what the next step is, all of these investigations are taking place simultaneously. There are many investigations. It's not just one because we're looking at the live image of that van, Matthew.
[13:15:06] But describe for us the arms, you know, in this kind of investigation, what from federal to local authorities are trying to uncover to get a better understanding as to maybe the next step in this investigation?
HORACE: Well, Fredricka, what you see is a very unified system of command and incident command come together in a fairly, fairly short amount of time here. We need to find out what type of guns were used, where those guns came from. If he was a convicted felon, where he purchased the guns. What type of explosive was used. Where did these explosive material come from. What may have caused him to go over the edge like this.
But the things like you just asked about the vehicle, those are part of the investigative steps that the ATF, the FBI, the Dallas police, and other investigative agencies will go at as the days unfold.
WHITFIELD: And then, Matthew, how do they rule out the whole C-4 use of plastic explosive? Because you mentioned earlier, yes, that's a big concern. It could be in the door. It could be in the window. But now we're seeing, you know, a continuation of this live image and the two individuals are walking right up to the vehicle, so maybe does that tell you that the robot has ruled out any use of any kind of C-4 explosive? It looks like they're peering into the window there.
HORACE: Well, just because the suspect said that he had C-4, doesn't mean that he had C-4 because suspects lie all the time. The fact of the matter is, we had several pipe bombs. And C-4 is primarily used by the military. So we don't know at this point what type of access he had to the military and if so if he even know what to do with C-4. C-4 is a high explosive, it requires a detonator. It requires certain things to happen to make it blow up. Nonetheless C-4 is a very, very volatile explosive particularly if you're talking about pounds and pounds and pounds of it.
WHITFIELD: OK. Matthew Horace, Jonathan Gilliam, Philip Holloway, Casey Jordan, we're not done with the case, but we're going to take a short break.
Again we continue to watch the developments there in Hutchins, Texas, just outside of Dallas to see what comes of the investigation of that blue armored vehicle. We'll have much more.
Plus, we're also going to update you on the ongoing search for two escapees in New York and now this woman facing felony charges in allegedly assisting their escape. More when we come right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:20:23] WHITFIELD: All right. Right outside of Dallas, Texas, in Hutchins, a close observation of this blue vehicle, this van, what has been known to be an armored vehicle that was used by at least one suspect who opened fire outside of the Dallas police headquarters in an assault. That was the word from the Dallas police chief. An assault against the Dallas police. And then crashing into police cruisers and then leading officers into the nearby Hutchins, Texas, there.
And ever since, now all of this happened at about 1:30 a.m. Eastern Time, and now here it is 1:30 p.m. Eastern Time. And now investigators are still trying to figure out when it will be safe perhaps to get into this vehicle and ascertain whether indeed there is one suspect. Whether that suspect has been injured because police did open fire on that vehicle shooting the engine block of that vehicle. But still unclear what is taking place inside that vehicle. Let's learn a little bit more now about at least one named suspect
here. Identified as James Boulware, according to Dallas police. Authorities say he is a white male and there are reports that a man by that name had previous run-ins with Texas police. Police have not officially confirmed the identity however.
Joining me right now from Washington, CNN national correspondent Sunlen Serfaty.
So, Sunlen, what more do we know about this named person as it relates to this now suspect?
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, police, Fred, say that he has a history of domestic violence, he has a record with at least three previous family offenses, violent family offenses. He was in a custody battle involving his children, which the chief of police he referenced in one of his many phone calls this morning with police. He told police during one of the phone -- those phone calls that they took his child away from him, labeled him as a terrorist, and police describe his social media footprint as concerning.
Some postings with threats against judges on those Web sites. Police are of course now trying to get a full picture at what motivated him to do this. But as of now they say, Fred, there is no firm motive yet.
WHITFIELD: OK. And in terms of the history of this person, primarily the threats were to family and community, I mean, on the -- we heard our Nick Valencia talk about any personal, physical alleged assault of family members. Do we know whether there's anything more to it than that?
SERFATY: We don't know but we have to understand that police are investigating his past and violence there. But the big question is also is there any sort of connection to terrorism, and I can tell you that at this point the police chief saying that he does not believe there's a connection to terrorism. Of course the investigation does continue. The latest update coming just a short time ago from the police chief, confirming that this suspect's name did not appear on any of their terrorism watch list. Here's the chief of police, David Brown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF DAVID BROWN, DALLAS POLICE: We have been from the very beginnings coordinating with the FBI to ensure that if there were a terrorism nexus that we get that information quickly. We have yet to confirm any of his rants about being accused of being a terrorist. As of right now we don't have many nexus to terrorism with this individual.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SERFATY: And police of course are working with the FBI, putting all these clues together. Trying to get the full picture into his background, what motivated and what led him to do this -- Fred. WHITFIELD: All right. Sunlen Serfaty, thank you so much. Appreciate
that from Washington.
All right. Still ahead we're going to talk campaign trail for 2016. You saw Hillary Clinton just moments ago with a rousing crowd there in Roosevelt Island discussing her past, her present and what she sees in the future.
Much more straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:27:57] WHITFIELD: All right. Welcome back. I'm Fredricka Whitfield in the NEWSROOM.
On now to another big story we're following. More than 800 federal, state and local law enforcement personnel may have new information to help catch the two escaped killers. The arrest of prisoner worker Joyce Mitchell on charges that she helped the two break out of prison could now lead to details about the plot.
Miller was moved to a new jail today. Police are now chasing at least 700 leads and more keep coming in. We know the search is still concentrated around the Clinton Correction Facility not far from the New York-Canada border. But police as far as way as Texas are on alert because one of the two escapees has ties there.
All right, let's talk more about the search, how it's being conducted and now the woman who is facing felony charges for allegedly assisting in their escape. Let's check in with Miguel Marquez who is there.
So, Miguel, there have been a lot of leads but how is this shaping the investigation or the direction of the search?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I don't know the arrest of Miss Mitchell is going to shape the direction of the search much at all. I think it does give people in this area a sense that things are progressing here, though. One interesting note in the charges, very slim number of charges that were brought against her yesterday. One felony, one misdemeanor is that they give a little more detail about what she actually took in to prison for these individuals or what they say she did.
Hacksaw blades, chisels, a punch and a screwdriver bit, and other dangerous contraband in addition to helping them plan all of this, they say. Law enforcement sources telling CNN earlier that she had planned to pick them up after the escape and then changed her mind, checked herself into a hospital because she felt so nervous and then began saying everything, telling everything to police, cooperating with them until the charges were brought.
She will be arraigned formally on Monday. She has put in -- her lawyer has put in a provisional plea of not guilty. She's just been moved about two and half hours south of here. We also just took a drive through the area. A couple of miles that way, around sort of to the south through Saranac, through Dannemora where the prison is. [13:30:09] What is amazing about all of this is how much law
enforcement is out there. How vast the area is, how many houses, barns, shacks, areas that there are out there. How normal life appears to be for people out there, cutting their grass, doing yard work, getting on with life and how completely abnormal it is with very heavily armed state troopers, correctional officers, sheriffs, police lining the road along the way.
Holding ground basically, creating a perimeter whenever they get a tip that something may be happening. We may have just had something shortly because several state troopers just took out of here very quickly. They then descend on that area, try to figure out what they can find and search it as aggressively as possible.
It is -- it does have the feeling as though law enforcement is waiting for them to make a mistake. This -- this escape so far has gone seemingly all in their favor -- Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: All right. Miguel Marquez, thank you so much. We appreciate it and update us on any details.
Meantime a search for answers in Hutchins, Texas, outside of Dallas after a suspect believed to be -- believed to be at least one suspect in this blue van who helped open fire on the Dallas police headquarters over night. Much more straight ahead.
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WHITFIELD: All right. Mortgage rates inched up again this week. Have a look.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:35:04] WHITFIELD: All right. Welcome back. We're getting new details about what took place in Dallas in the middle of the night, at roughly 1:30 a.m. We understand that a suspect opened fire at Dallas -- Dallas police headquarters. There was an exchange of fire.
This is new audio that has just come in from Dallas dispatch about what transpired at that moment. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED DALLAS DISPATCH: Supervisor call down here to communications ASAP. We've got one of the shooters on the phone.
UNIDENTIFIED DALLAS DISPATCH: The suspect refuses to give his name and he's got the van rigged with explosives and he has (INAUDIBLE) so he can probably see on the Charlie side of his vehicle and all sides.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: All right. That's some of the audio that has just now coming in from Dallas dispatch now. Let's talk more about this as we also try to learn from authorities what is happening just about 18 miles away with a blue van that is surrounded by authorities and even a robot. It's believed the suspect in that shooting overnight is in that vehicle and there is the live picture. Actually we're now seeing a live picture of what we heard from former ATF agent Matthew Horace earlier described about how they would peel away the layers of this vehicle trying to get inside.
So as we watch this live video, let's bring in former ATF agent Matthew Horace and former Navy SEAL Jonathan Gilliam back with me now.
So, gentlemen, as we look at those images let's also talk about the audio we just heard, how that call came in.
Jonathan, what did you hear in that call that was particularly of interest to you?
GILLIAM: Well, I think that when it said it was inaudible, I think he was saying that he has cameras in the van so he can see all around the vehicle, which is interesting. I mean, this guy really went out of his way to make this vehicle and to an attack vehicle. I mean, he definitely had a plan. And I think that's one thing that the investigators are really going to start to look at is that this wasn't something that this guy just got angry with today or this morning, and decided he was going to do something.
This is a really well-thought out plan with this guy. And I think they're going to be -- you know, this is going to be quite an investigation as they dig into it.
WHITFIELD: OK. And so, Matthew, we have a few new things to talk about here. A, the live pictures right now, the peeling back the layers which is exactly what you eluded to earlier with the robot being used to find out how much of a threat this vehicle was especially since the suspect claimed that explosives he may have had, some military style explosives. And then we heard this audio, the call coming in.
And then now, gentlemen, we have new video that has just come in from this alleged attack on Dallas police. Take a look at the video showing the inside of a Dallas police car, riddled with bullets. You can see the driver's seat has several bullet holes. The car's windows also shot out and there are several bullet holes in the door. And we are told that there was an officer inside this cruiser who survived.
We heard from the Dallas police chief earlier who said miraculously in this hail of gunfire that hit cruisers, that hit inside the lobby of the Dallas police headquarters that no one was hit. No one was injured.
So, Matthew, I know it's a lot to digest everything from the video we're seeing here, to the audio to Dallas dispatch we heard and then the live image of the peeling back the layers. This is an incredible investigation, is it not?
HORACE: It really is, but you know, as much as there's a lot to digest is not a lot to -- there's not a lot to not understand. Coming from 27 years in law enforcement, these are the types of things that we prepare for but hope never happen. We're very lucky that no one was hurt or killed this morning on the law enforcement side of the fence. And, you know, right now while so many law enforcement actions are under scrutiny, this is another reminder that these are some of the types of people that we deal with day in and day out.
Now what you're seeing is very strategic leadership, tactical leadership and operational leadership on the ground to make sure that this thing is investigated, concisely, deliberately and taken their time. You're seeing everyone doing exactly what they were trained to do, and over the course of the next several days and weeks and months, you will determine and we will determine what happened here and hopefully why.
WHITFIELD: Yes, and you know, in contrast to a lot of incidents that have become very public by way of personal cell phone video we're taking the time, patience certainly was lacking. Here we're looking at a situation as events unfolded in a matter of 12 hours because we're now at the 12th hour so to speak of when this all unfolded.
And we are seeing an incredible exhibition of patients being paid whether it'd be following this vehicle. Yes, there was an exchange of gunfire, Jonathan and Matthew, and we're talking about an armored vehicle, we understand. But we're also talking about a level of patience in investigating who might be in this vehicle, how to so-call peel back the layers as we're now seeing and a real, I guess, patience in trying to discern what happened here. The sequence of events.
[13:40:11] Why has this resulted in a real different in an outcome of this kind of investigation which continues, Matthew?
HORACE: Well, I think what you're seeing is, you're seeing a phenomenal leadership from the top down. You're seeing organization and you're seeing seamless incident command. That is everyone at every level with every function knows exactly what he or her has to do when these sort of things happen. You saw it with the chief this morning. Listen. Four different points of reference. There could have been lethal gunfire today.
But there wasn't. They followed the vehicle. The vehicle got to a location. They surrounded it. They created a perimeter and now we're doing what's in the best interest of public safety by determining if there are explosives in the vehicle.
WHITFIELD: Yes, and, Jonathan, quickly your view. We still don't know anything more about the disposition of the suspect. Whether he is dead or alive. Whether there was more than one. What is in that vehicle right now that they are now finally entering here?
GILLIAM: Well, you know, from an investigator's standpoint, I can definitely tell you, even though it's not official, that he is no longer with us. I mean, they would not be around this vehicle right now and certainly if he was injured, there would be a little bit more frantic work around that vehicle. I just -- I don't think that he's alive inside that vehicle. So that 50 caliber rifle, you have to think about it, Fred. If they go -- it can go through an engine block, imagine what it would do when it flies through the window of a van. I mean, it's pretty powerful stuff. And one thing I do want to point out, though, as a teaching point for
everybody. All these people that are taking videos, when they're live -- there's live fire going around, bullets can ricochet and fly straight up in the air. They can go to the left, to the right. They can even come back at you. It's very, very important that when people hear things like gunfire, that they don't rush to the windows. They don't try to go take video because it's a recipe for disaster.
WHITFIELD: Right. Go low.
GILLIAM: A lot of people will be killed.
WHITFIELD: Duck.
(LAUGHTER)
GILLIAM: And especially if he's got explosives.
WHITFIELD: Right. All right. Jonathan Gilliam, great points. Matthew Horace, appreciate that. We're going to continue to watch the developments there in Hutchins, Texas, just outside of Dallas as we continue to learn and watch what investigators do there with that blue van. We'll have much more right after this.
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[13:45:56] WHITFIELD: All right. Welcome back as police try to get into that blue armored vehicle just outside of Dallas, Texas, in Hutchins, Texas. We still have lots of questions as to what happened starting at 1:30 in the morning when this alleged suspect apparently opened fire on Dallas headquarters and then 18 miles later it is now at this standstill here in Hutchins, Texas. Trying to get to the suspect, trying to figure out why this all happened.
Let's bring in my panel, license psychologist Erik Fisher and CNN legal analyst Philip Holloway and retired LAPD police sergeant.
All right, good to see all of you.
All right, so, Eric, let me begin with you because, you know, police want to eliminate the threat, but at the same time they're trying to figure out what would provoke someone to carry out an alleged attack like this on Dallas police headquarters based on what we know here? How do you access this?
ERIK FISHER, LICENSED PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, from doing some research and see what I could find, there's a lot of news that's out there on this. It seems that from police reports he had a history of aggressive behavior as well as possibly some mental health issues. The behavior we see would be potentially delusional so you're possibly looking at somebody who could be psychotic, who had delusions that involve anger and rage, were the results of that, and he acted out towards other people.
It would have been towards his -- again reported towards his mother and another family member. And he had made threats again according to Web sites on churches and schools. So this was something that had been brewing. He had also reportedly gone to another family home and taking some guns and ammunition at one time, too. The charges were dismissed in 2014 because he had followed all the court mandated recommendations. So here's a -- the difficulty, though, that you have in following somebody's history of how do you assess who could be a threat down the line and who's not.
WHITFIELD: Cheryl Dorsey, I want to bring you into this. This is a very different kind of police involved shooting that we're talking about today. You've been on this show a number of times in recent months to talk about the conduct of police officers. Now in your assessment, this is very different circumstance, but how do you assess the conduct of Dallas police handling this when they were allegedly the target of someone who police said was carrying out an attack on headquarters?
CHERYL DORSEY, RETIRED LAPD POLICE SERGEANT: Well, this is an example of what police work is really all about. And this is what police officers do by and large. And so I'm happy that people are having an opportunity to see what good police work looks like, what good communication, good tactics look like. And when you follow those rules and those principles and procedures, and do the thing that you practice day in and day out, you have a successful outcome as we did in this instance. No officers were injured, hurt or killed.
WHITFIELD: Still a lot of questions and we still don't know whether there was indeed one suspect. This suspect James Boulware or whether there were more.
Philip Holloway, is it still your feeling that this could not have been carried out alone, that there may be accomplices?
HOLLOWAY: I suspect that that is a distinct possibility that he had somebody that helped him plan this or carry it out or at least had some knowledge about it because it had sort of a sense of sophistication about that we don't really generally see when you have these mass shooting or attempted mass murders as what this was.
WHITFIELD: And certainly boldness.
HOLLOWAY: Correct. This guy was extremely bold and of course I agree with the psychological aspect of this. I see this in my own law practice. You know, you see people when their children get involved, they just absolutely can change the way that they view the entire world, and it can cause someone to change the behavior and do something that they would not ordinarily do.
WHITFIELD: All right. Philip Holloway, Erik Fisher, Cheryl Dorsey, thanks to all of you. Appreciate it.
We're not done with this investigation, this story, because it is ongoing. Again still a live unfolding situation there in Hutchins, Texas. Still unclear whether there was one suspect or more in that van and what is next for the police.
We'll be back in a moment after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:53:02] WHITFIELD: All right. Welcome back. You're looking at live pictures of that blue armored vehicle. Well, now Dallas police confirming with CNN that the suspect inside that vehicle is dead. However, Dallas police say they are unable to confirm the identity, even though we have revealed a suspect's name for the past couple of hours.
And Dallas police confirming that that was someone who did have a patterned trouble and other allegations involving domestic violence with Dallas police. But again, Dallas police now saying they will not confirm the identity of the suspect, but they will confirm the suspect is dead.
Let's ask legal analyst Philip Holloway, who is here in studio with me, and Nick Valencia is on the phone with us from the Hutchins area.
So actually, Nick, let me go to you first. About this confirmation from Dallas police that the suspect is dead. However, they are still going to look for answers in that van. Tell me what you know right now.
VALENCIA: Fredricka, can you hear me? I'm sorry.
WHITFIELD: I can hear you. It's very slight, but go ahead. All right. It looks like we're going to try and work on that audio.
So, Philip, let me ask you. You know, you're here in Atlanta, but you have had some history with law enforcement. You're a legal analyst right now. What are some of the answers they're going to look for in that van, even though they have a body, they're going to confirm his identity. What more are they going to learn from that vehicle?
HOLLOWAY: Yes. I processed a few crime scenes back in another lifetime, but I can tell you what they're going to be looking for is any evidence of planning. They're going to look for evidence of motive. They're going to see what type of fingerprints they might find, to see if there was another third party present at some point. There was some earlier reports that maybe somebody else tried to jump in the van, but couldn't get in the van in time and ran away.
We don't know if that's the truth or not, but they're going to look for evidence of third parties. And really, anything of evidentiary value that they can find. And the sky is the limit, Fred. It really could turn up anything --
[13:55:01] WHITFIELD: May reveal something more about planning stages.
HOLLOWAY: Or it could turn up nothing. It could be that he was simply lying about having explosives in the vehicle and things like that. Yes.
WHITFIELD: OK, very good. All right. Nick Valencia back with us now there in Hutchins, Texas. I think we've worked on your audio, Nick, so we'll be able to hear you better. So what are you learning there on the ground about this investigation and the next step forward?
VALENCIA: Well, the investigation is still a very active one. Crime scene tape has lined the area where the shooting happened at about 12:30 a.m. yesterday local time, 1:30 a.m. Eastern.
I've been speaking with eyewitnesses, Fredricka, and they describe a very chilling, haunting scene. One eyewitness I just spoke to said that she was on her way down to the lower level, a restaurant down on the street when she actually saw -- she actually saw a suspect. She couldn't get a very good, clear photo -- I'm sorry, a visual of him, but she did see that suspect using that armored vehicle, trying to smash it into police.
She saw the flashes from the muzzle. She said the whole incident, from what she could tell lasted about five minutes. We've talked to other residents here who were also within that loft. There's a group of lofts around the shooting scene around Dallas Police Department headquarters. One witness told me that it lasted about 20 minutes. She could hear heavy gunfire. She thought it was the television. She told her husband to turn it down. Only to find out, looking out the window, that it was an attack on the police department headquarters.
That suspect eventually taking police on a chase. And what we're told now, what you just reported at the top of the hour is that that suspect is deceased. They aren't confirming the name, though a name has been floated around among local and national press of a suspect who has a lengthy criminal history. Somebody who has had -- who has made threats to his community before. Has made threats to family members before.
We are working on trying to get that confirmation for you and when we do, we will hopefully have more on that suspect -- Fred.
WHITFIELD: All right, Nick, and just as you were beginning your talk, and I don't know what your vantage point is, as to whether you can see the van in line of sight right now, but just as you were beginning your discussion, there was like a plume of smoke right at that van.
Philip, perhaps you saw it. You're here in studio with me. Is it clear to you what that might have been, whether there might have been any kind of detonation of something, even after Dallas police are confirming that the suspect is dead?
HOLLOWAY: Yes, I think originally this morning the police chief said that they were planning for a -- a planned detonation. And I'm trying to look at the monitor as we speak to see what, if anything, I can discern there. And it may very well be that they set off some type of charges just out of an abundance of caution, even if they didn't find any readily identifiable explosives.
WHITFIELD: OK. And we also have two other legal experts very familiar to this show. Usually you see them in the noon Eastern hour. Our Avery Friedman out of Cleveland and our Richard Herman out of -- let's see, where are you today? Are you in New York?
(LAUGHTER) WHITFIELD: Got to keep up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There it is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wherever he is.
WHITFIELD: Wherever he is. We're glad you all are present to kind of join in on this conversation. Originally we were going to talk primarily about Joyce Mitchell and what's beginning on in the ongoing search for the inmates in New York, but we know that you all are very well-versed on just about any and all things.
So from your vantage point, let's talk about what's happening here outside of Dallas. And now police confirming that the suspect has been killed. But they're unable to confirm the identity. And then there have been discussions about whether this may have been planned by just one person or more, given this was a very bold alleged attack on Dallas headquarters.
Avery, you first. You know, give us an idea of how this investigation will go forward. There are many investigations under way. Who this person or who the people are. What the planning was in order to conduct an attack, an alleged attack like this. But how do you see it from your vantage point from Cleveland?
AVERY FRIEDMAN, LAW PROFESSOR: Well, I think you're going to have a multitude, different layers of investigation. You'll have FBI, you're going to have local authority, you're going to have the Texas Rangers, which is state law enforcement there. You're going to have that coordinated. But in terms of the individuals, I was actually intrigued by what was said earlier, that this might involve other people. Perhaps a conspiracy. I'm not sure of that. I think when you have someone who's as bold and maybe as psychotic as what was mentioned earlier.
It may very well be something that was just immediate. Something that -- a decision was made that we're going to get police headquarters, and someone's going to have to suffer for what the person believe was an offense to him. And I don't think there's a rational way of explaining that sort of behavior.
WHITFIELD: And then, Richard, we continue to look at the live pictures right now. All of this taking place right now. Even though police have confirmed the death of a suspect. We did see like a little plume of smoke. Still not sure what that really meant. But in investigators are now right up on that vehicle so perhaps this means the threat has been eliminated. But how do you assess all that's transpired in the last 12 to now almost 13 hours?
RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It's -- really it's an amazing story, Fred. Someone to step out like this and claim or we're hearing that because his child was taken away from him or because he lost his parental right.
