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Dallas Gunman Shot Dead by Sniper After Car Chase; Prison Break Manhunt Continues; The Race for 2016; Tamir Rice Shooting: Prosecutor Releases Investigation Results; NAACP Leader Accused of Faking Blackness. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired June 13, 2015 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:05] POPPY HARLOW, CNN HOST: 4:00 Eastern. I'm Poppy Harlow joining you in New York. And we begin with the latest out of Dallas, Texas. A barrage of gunshots, exploding pipe bombs, and a SWAT standoff.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)

HARLOW: Police are trying to determine what led a man to attack Dallas police headquarters in the heart of the city just after midnight. A man opened fire with an assault weapon and a shotgun and planted at least one set of pipe bombs in a bag outside that later exploded. A hail of bullets nearly hit everything in sight but amazingly, none of the officers or the staff inside police headquarters were hit.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF DAVID BROWN, DALLAS POLICE: Some officers say we're very lucky. I believe we're blessed that our officers survived this ordeal. There are bullet holes in squad cars where officers were sitting. There are bullet holes in the front lobby where our staff were sitting. And one staff member had just walked away to get a coke. If they had stayed there during the ordeal, they would have been shot, we believe, and killed based on the trajectory of the bullets. Looking at the front parts of headquarters, there are bullets and there's a police helicopter inside as a museum piece, it's shot up. The second floor has bullet holes in it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Police did return fire. This eventually led to a chase -- a 13-mile chase after an armored van rammed into a police car before speeding away. Officers followed it to a restaurant parking lot. That is where the man was eventually shot dead by SWAT snipers. And then a police robot set off explosives in case there were any more bombs in side of that van. In the end, the armored van ended up in (INAUDIBLE) flames after pipe bombs were detonated inside. This was the scene just over an hour and a half ago. Our Nick Valencia is on the ground in Dallas. He has much more on how today's events unfolded.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: One suspect is dead after what appears to be a coordinated attack on the Dallas police department headquarters. The incident began at about 12:30 a.m. local time when police say a suspect approached their headquarters in an armored vehicle and engaged them in a shootout. Witnesses tell me that he also used that car to slam into squad cars -- police squad cars -- eventually leading police on a high-speed chase about 18 miles away from here.

The concern for the police officers was explosives here on the scene. They found four suspicious bags. Two of them that self-detonated. Small pipe bombs were found within those suspicious bags. Eyewitnesses I spoke to said that the scene was terrifying. Some are still trying to make sense of what happened.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were walking out down the stairs and about to get on the elevator to go down to the street and visit a local restaurant and just started hearing rapid fire, didn't really quite know what it was or how serious it was. It was extremely scary. But then we heard someone in the stairwell saying, "They're shooting at police."

VALENCIA: In their initial negotiations with the suspect, police say that they were told -- he said, "They took my child away. You accuse me of being a terrorist." That's according to police. Right now at this hour though, the motive as to what would inspire somebody to carry out an attack on police and not only that but bring an armored vehicle here into the city to use that in their attack -- well, that seems to be the outstanding question that police are looking to answer.

Nick Valencia. CNN. Dallas, Texas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Nick, thank you for that. The question now is why. Why did this happen? What sparked it?

Well, we know that after the initial shootout, the suspect in this attack and this standoff told negotiators that his name was James Boulware. He said that he was angry over losing custody of his son. A family court found he had a history of committing family violence. His mother says that he's been in and out of jail.

Police (INAUDIBLE) calling judges early this morning, checking in to see if they had overseen any cases involving James Boulware. Judge Kim Cooks is one of them. She received a call about 4:00 this morning. She's a Dallas County family district court judge.

Thank you for being with me again, your Honor. I know we got cut-off on the phone last hour. But you were telling me a little bit more about this man -- James Boulware -- because everyone wants to know why would he do this. You said that he has a long history of mental illness. Can you detail that for us? What are we talking about here?

VOICE OF JUDGE KIM COOKS, PRESIDED OVER CUSTODY CASE INVOLVING DALLAS SUSPECT: Based on what his mother said that he had a long history of mental illness from his teenage years and through testimony, yes, he'd say he would hear voices and they would tell him different things. But he wasn't mentally incompetent to stand trial.

[16:05:05]

HARLOW: Was it clear if he was prescribed medication and if so, if he was taking it?

COOKS: I have no idea if he was prescribed medication.

HARLOW: You have said that he made threats against you in the past. What did he say to you?

COOKS: Well, that was after the jury came back with their verdict. Then he started making threats via Facebook, via email, and via the phone. He would tell me I'm going to pay for this, he's going to get me. Threats of that nature.

HARLOW: It must have been very, very scary for you. Did you have any protection from the police? Were you offered protection given that you were undergoing these threats from him - it sounds like multiple times?

COOKS: I did have protection from Dallas police department. They've done an excellent job. And also, because I'm a state district judge, it was more of the sheriff's department that were doing the protecting. HARLOW: So does that mean that they were surveilling him -- that they were watching over him? Because one question's how he was able to set up what seems like an elaborate attack -- an armored vehicle, multiple guns, et cetera, if there was any sort of surveillance?

COOKS: Well, I don't believe they ever thought that they would be the target. Just as I would never have thought that the law enforcement would be the target, specifically the Dallas police department. I always thought that I was going to be the target and it was a matter of when was he going to come and try to do something.

HARLOW: And just to be clear here, you say he was very angry when they jury came back with their verdict. What was that verdict?

COOKS: The verdict was for his mother to have the child.

HARLOW: OK. And we're talking about -- what -- a teenage son?

COOKS: Yes.

HARLOW: OK. Judge Kim Cooks, I'm glad you're alright. Glad all the officers that were under attack here are alright. Thank you for being with us.

Let's take a look at the story from the perspective of a police officer. With me now, CNN law enforcement analyst and retired New York City police detective Harry Houck.

Harry, what's your reaction to this?

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, as far as the attack's concerned, it seems like this man's mentally unbalanced and as the judge also said that she was afraid for her own life, for him coming after her. So I think -- I don't think the police would actually be watching him like they would be watching a terrorist. But -- so something like this happens. There's no way to find out something like this is going to occur.

Now, when they're going to conduct the investigation on this gentleman here, they're going to want to know what were the last 48 and 24 hours like in his life. What did he -- what did he plan? Who did he contact? Who did he speak to? All right. Once we find out a lot of that information, we'll be able to find out whether or not other people were involved in this attack with him.

HARLOW: But you say you don't think police would be watching over him or surveilling him like they would a potential terrorist. If you have someone who's making multiple threats against a judge, right, and someone who has a history of mental illness and who's been in and out of jail, someone who clearly was capable of buying an armored vehicle, multiple guns -- why isn't that someone who should be overseen?

HOUCK: Well, I guess it depends on the threat. I don't know what exactly which -- what kind of threat was that. Did he -- did he threaten the judge that he was going to kill her?

HARLOW: The judge told us just now that he said something to the effect that "I'm going to get you."

HOUCK: Right. Exactly. So I mean, there's -- for a judge like that, maybe they should have been watching him. I mean, I don't know. I mean, did the police think that he was an imminent threat or was this just a threat that people always say all the time when they're in court to people. You know? Because he was upset and he's mad. I mean, there's no way we could have probably known that he would have -- he would actually try something like this or the fact that his -- he's somebody that knows him would know that he's going to carry out such an attack. Now, the judge herself should have said, "Listen, I want 24-hour surveillance on this guy because I believe he's going to attack me" and then maybe would have been able to find out about this attack.

HARLOW: What did -- if you're a law enforcement officer in Dallas right now, having this just happened last night, miraculously no one was shot. What are you thinking?

HOUCK: Right. Well, we're really lucky that nobody was shot and killed here. Like the chief had said, I believe we're blessed here. So you've got to worry about all your other precincts and as a matter of fact, right after this happened, probably precincts all over the country probably put extra alert or extra officers on the precincts and extra security because at the time, we didn't know whether this was a terrorist attack, just a lone gunman like we believe it is now.

[16:10:01]

So as a police officer, it's another thing that get add on to the fact that police officers had been under attack for so long now and then something like this happens. It's a big concern and it could -- this could be a good -- a big game changer for law enforcement.

HARLOW: Harry Houck, thanks for the perspective.

Well, coming up next, as two convicted killers are on the run in New York, the woman accused of helping them escape is now sitting behind bars.

CNN's Miguel Marquez is there.

Miguel?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I'm in West Plattsburgh, New York where an intense search is underway right now just east of the prison where those two escaped. I will update you fully on what's going on out there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Right now, more than 800 federal, state, and local law enforcement officers are part of a huge manhunt for two escaped killers in upstate New York.

Police have now charged a prison seamstress for helping the two fugitives bust out of the maximum security prison eight days ago by providing them with hacksaw blades, drill bits, and chisels. Joyce Mitchell told investigators that Richard Matt -- the inmate convicted of beating a man to death and dismembering his body -- made her feel "special". But sources tell CNN, Mitchell also had a relationship of some sort with convicted murderer David Sweat.

Today, the manhunt remains concentrated pretty close to the prison where the two men escaped. The police as far away as Texas are on alert because one of the two escapees has ties there.

Miguel Marquez is on the ground. He joins us from the search area in upstate New York.

Are they, Miguel, still pretty convinced that the two of these guys are together?

MARQUEZ: Well, from our looking into that area just east of where we are between West Plattsburgh and the prison, yes.

[16:15:05]

The area where they picked up that scent a few days ago where they believed they may have slept for the night, where they found food wrappers and a shoe or boot prints out there. Also, near a gas station where there was a Subway sandwich shop. They believe that there might be some video tape on the surveillance video of two people rummaging through the garbage there. That may have been them. All of that in that same area. There's a very small pocket.

This is a vast, vast area here. So you can see how it is difficult for law enforcement to search everything. But they have concentrated on an area just south and east of the prison and a couple of roads called Bucks Corners Road and (INAUDIBLE) road just north of the number three -- the highway three. That area is still very much on lockdown. The area around it lined by police officers all along areas that they've searched. They tried the whole police officers with binoculars out there. ATVs everywhere. Helicopters up. Clear or infrared type technology is well being used on the air and on the ground. Just an all-out effort. But that one little area seems to be the place where they saw people going over a stone wall yesterday. They flood that zone. They are searching every single house, every barn, every outbuilding, every abandoned car that they can find to see if these individuals are in that area.

Poppy?

HARLOW: Isn't it the fact, Miguel, isn't it the case that out of more than 20 escapes from prison there in the state of New York - that no one has been missing for more than 24 hours?

MARQUEZ: It is shocking and terrifying to the people in this neighborhood, I think, in this area, across all of it. It is amazing to be back there and see that people are going on with their lives, mowing their lawns, doing their yard work, working in the barns and on their cars. All the while, you have this massive police presence surround them. Everybody on the lookout, we went into kind of the neighborhoods there. People have guns strapped to their belts, they're locking their doors. This is not the sort of place where you would expect this. It is a very, very rural and sort of ideal wilderness-like area and I think people are just in shock that they haven't caught these guys or don't have any better clue as to where exactly they may be this far on. Poppy?

HARLOW: It really is stunning. Miguel, thank you.

Coming up, those police under attack in Dallas. Why was the man who allegedly carried this out? Why does he do it? We're going to talk about that.

Also, Hillary Clinton delivering her first big official campaign speech. We will take you next to Iowa 'cause that is where the candidate is headed now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:20:01]

HARLOW: Right now, presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton is on her way to Iowa. She just wrapped up her first major campaign rally in New York just a few hours ago. The former secretary of state opened up about family struggles that helped her form her political beliefs. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My mother taught me that everybody needs a chance and a champion. She knew what it was like not to have either one. Her own parents abandoned her and by 14, she was out on her own, working as a housemaid. Years later, when I was old enough to understand, I asked, "What kept her going?" You know what her answer was? Something very simple -- kindness from someone who believed she mattered. The first grade teacher who saw she had nothing to eat at lunch and without embarrassing her, brought extra food to share. The woman who's house she cleaned, letting her go to high school so long as her work got done. That was a bargain she leapt to accept. And because some people believed in her, she believed in me. That's why I believe with all my heart in America and in the potential of every American.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: All right. Well, as the speech was going on, Bernie Sanders, another candidate for the White House, Democratic rival of Hillary Clinton is in Iowa at a campaign event. Our Jeff Zeleny, CNN's senior Washington correspondent caught up with him. Here's what he says.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: So, Senator, you have a new competitor in the race today -- at least, officially. She had her launch near Brooklyn, your hometown. What do you say about Hillary Clinton finally being in the race? Did you hear enough from her today or...

BERNIE SANDERS, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I thought she touched on some of the important issues facing this country. But I think the devil is what goes in the details. The question is who has the leadership capabilities to take on a billionaire class now whose greed has no end at the time. A 99 percent of all new income is going to the top one percent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Jeff Zeleny joins me now from the Des Moines. Jeff, great that you caught up with -- caught up with Bernie Sanders.

It's interesting, right, because he is about as far to the left as you can get, really running in this progressive platform, talking so much about income inequality and now, clearly, that is what we're seeing from Hillary Clinton. That is going to be a huge part of this campaign. Does he push Bernie Sanders even more to the left?

ZELENY: I mean, there's no question, Poppy, the front and center of the -- the Hallmark message of this campaign is income inequality is fighting for the middle class. And we heard those words in Secretary Clinton's speech this morning but you have to wonder is she being pulled a little bit to the left by Bernie Sanders, by sort of a shadow of Elizabeth Warren who decided or has so far -- we believe -- will not jump in. So there's no question that this is playing a role in her message but that is where the Democrat electorate is. That's where Hillary Clinton has to be.

HARLOW: So what's your strategy then? What is Bernie Sanders' strategy if their messages are looking even more similar now?

ZELENY: Well, I'm not sure they're entirely similar. I mean, Bernie Sanders believes that Hillary Clinton has not been nearly strong enough on trade, for example. He said that she needs to take a hard stand. He believes that the Clintons and the Bushes are part of this millionaire class in America. So he is appealing to voters for a grassroots movement to try something different.

[16:25:12]

He is speaking at a union hall inside here behind me right now and he has been drawing big crowds across Iowa, hundreds of people last night heard him, and he is -- he is urging the grassroots movement to be involved in this election. I asked him how much he's going to challenge here, how much he's going to press her. And he said, "We're going to have a lot of differences in this campaign.

So the reality is Hillary Clinton is the frontrunner for the Democratic nomination, without question. She's in the driver's seat, here, but she has to keep at least one eye on Bernie Sanders and Martin O'Malley, some other Democrats because she is not assured of the nomination. But Democrats want to see her fighting. Democrats want to see her out there, championing their issues. So this was kind of her moment in the sun. But Bernie Sanders was just fine to step into it a little bit.

HARLOW: Interesting. Great (INAUDIBLE) with the interview with Bernie Sanders. (INAUDIBLE) him on the same day and so was Clinton who made this speech. Thanks so much, Jeff.

Well, tomorrow morning, you're not going to want to miss this - Jake Tapper's interview with President Bill Clinton. It is on "State of the Union with Jake Tapper" which premieres tomorrow, 9 a.m. only right here on CNN.

We're keeping a very close eye on Dallas, Texas where police headquarters were ambushed overnight. We're going to tell you how it all went down, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Back to Dallas now where police were ambushed overnight. A man attacked the police station just after midnight. A gunman riddled the police headquarters' building and patrol cars before leading them on a 13-mile chase. You can see all the bullet holes there. He left behind bombs rigged to explode. That ended when police shot the man dead after he threatened to blow up his van that he said was full of more explosives. This is the van and it burned several hours after that chase ended.

Miraculously, no police officers were hurt. No one inside police headquarters or anyone who lived in the area was injured either.

[16:30:03] This is what it sounded like on police radio.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To all the knowledge, witnesses and everything else here, at headquarters, all suspects got into a vehicle and are currently in pursuit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got an airborne sniper, if you want it to drive down and cover you while you get those officers out of the parking lot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There have been round that hit the glass but did not penetrate. So, we have a .50 cal and we have rifles.

Make sure you advise them that if this person runs out of this vehicle and gets mobile into the neighborhood, that they need to provide cover for us at that point.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Supervisor call down here to communications ASAP. We've got one of the shooters on the phone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dispatch, they have a number. Let me give you his number. He's willing to talk.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need a phone number. The negotiator are asking for out here on the scene.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have that phone number, correct?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Call him with it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The suspect refused to give me his name, said he's got the van rigged with explosives and he has cameras so he can probably see on the Charlie side of his vehicle and all sides.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

HARLOW: All right. Let's talk about this man and why he may have carried this out.

CNN's Sunlen Serfaty was following the latest on him.

Look, we know, Sunlen, that he had, we're told, a history of mental illness. He had been in and out of jail. What more do we know about him that could have led to this?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it does seem likely, Poppy, that he was already at least on the radar of local police in the area. According to the police chief, he's had multiple run-ins with authorities in the past, a history of domestic violence on at least three different occasions.

It seems that his family problems also might have contributed in some way to this attack potentially. Police indicating that he was involved in a custody battle over his children and that was something that he specifically brought up to police this morning in the middle of that standoff, telling police that they took his child away from him and he was angry over that.

Police are, of course, now scouring not only his past offenses but his social media presence. They describe his presence online as concerning, including threats he made against judges online.

Police say at this point, there is no indication at this time that he was going to commit that sort of specific attack, though, against this police headquarters and they say, as of now, they can't say what the firm motive is -- Poppy.

HARLOW: I know they're still trying to figure out what the motive was. Clearly, he was very upset about this court's decision, Sunlen, the jury decision on the custody battle over his child. Do they know if anyone else was working with him, anyone else helped him plan this or do they think he was acting alone? SERFATY: Well, as of now they haven't said one way or the other. In

the early morning of this incident, there was word from witnesses on the scene that there could have been up to four suspects, and police of course were chasing that down.

Later, we found out according to the police chief that they believe that that information was coming from multiple witnesses that might have observed this at multiple angles. As of now, they are saying one suspect. Of course, this is an ongoing investigation, still a lot of questions remain over why he did this, if he acted alone. But as of now, they are saying one suspect.

HARLOW: Thank goodness. Thank goodness, none of those officers, anyone inside, was injured at all in this.

Sunlen, thank you.

Coming up next, it has been months and months. It has been more than 200 days and the family of 12-year-old Tamir Rice is waiting -- they are waiting for answers. They want answers in the investigation of why their child was killed.

Much of the evidence in the case just today being made public. We'll talk about it, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:37:07] HARLOW: A Cuyahoga County prosecutor's office in Ohio has just released documents laying out interviews and evidence collected in the sheriff's department investigation into the shooting death of Tamir Rice. Rice was the Cleveland 12-year-old who had a BB gun he was waving in a park. This happened back on November 22nd of last year.

A 911 caller reported that someone was waving a gun at people. They added that the gun was probably fake, but that message was not relayed from the dispatcher on to the police that responded to the scene.

A short time later, a rookie police officer seen on this video pulled up in a patrol car and shot Rice several times within seconds.

Earlier this week, a municipal court judge said prosecutors should move forward with charges against the officers. The prosecutor said if there are any charges, it will all be up to a grand jury. That grand jury has not yet been convened.

Let's talk about it with former NYPD detective Harry Houck. Lamont Marc Hill is with us, a professor at Morehouse College, also a CNN commentator.

And also joining me is criminal defense attorney Philip Holloway. He joins us in Atlanta. He's also a former police instructor.

Gentlemen, thank you for being here.

Philip, let me begin with you. Can you help us understand this Ohio law that allows a judge to say --

to look at evidence and say, yes, there is probable cause to charge here? I mean, one of the officers he is saying there is probable cause to charge them with murder and voluntary manslaughter, reckless homicide, negligent homicide. Why can a judge say that but it actually has no impact unless the prosecutor convenes this grand jury?

PHILIP HOLLOWAY, CRMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it's because there's a conflict in the law in Ohio. A lot of states, Georgia included, have these citizen warrants where a civilian can go to a judge and ask for the judge to issue an arrest warrant.

However, in Ohio, the judge's determination is not binding upon the D.A., and no warrant can be issued unless the D.A. seeks one. This case is going to grand jury and the judge who ruled that yesterday did not have the benefit of this -- these documents that were released today that give a lot of very significant information that in my opinion, would support the shooting as being a legitimate one.

HARLOW: What is some of that information that you think bodes in favor of the officers responding in this way?

HOLLOWAY: There is one key Supreme Court case called Graham versus Conner, from 1989. What it tells us, the United States Supreme Court says that in use of force cases, they are to be analyzed as objectively reasonable as seen from the perspective of the officer on the scene without necessarily the benefit of 20/20 hindsight like we have now.

There are documents -- information in these documents that tell us these officers were not told by the dispatchers that the gun was possibly fake or that he was possibly a juvenile.

[16:40:07] In addition, these documents say things like video surveillance confirms that as the officers rolled up on the scene, Mr. Rice, the young man, was reaching towards his waist band on the right side as if to pull out a gun potentially.

And so, when you have a dynamic and fluid and ever-changing situation and officers with limited if not incorrect knowledge having been given to them, that is the perspective that must be used, not 20/20 hindsight.

HARLOW: Marc, it has been 200 plus days and a grand jury has not yet been called. That is what I keep hearing over and over from so many people saying, why has this not been brought to a grand jury yet? Why does the family have to wait so long?

What is your reaction to that?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN COMMENTATOR: I agree with the family and I agree with the people not just in the area but really around the country and indeed the world who are saying we need some level of justice.

What does justice look like? Justice means a thorough investigation. Justice means a grand jury. Justice means getting to the bottom of this.

There are -- I read the report. The report is very helpful. It still doesn't answer certain questions for me.

For example, if you legitimately think that this child is such a threat, why do you pull up and get out of the car? There's no backup. You jump out urgent -- you jump out quickly to someone holding potentially waving a gun? The behavior didn't seem consistent to me with someone who thought they were in imminent danger yet their response was in terms of shooting him.

The report said between no more than two seconds, no more than two seconds after getting out of the car. It's troublesome to me and it warrants an investigation. I'm not saying let's do kangaroo court here. I'm not saying let's not give these officers a fair shake. I'm saying let's subject them to the scrutiny any other citizen would get.

HOUCK: He already has.

HARLOW: What's an interesting point, Harry. You are a former New York City police officer. Does marc have a point, why would you get out of the car if you feel like you're in imminent danger with no backup?

HOUCK: Because you are a police officer and that's your job. You get a call that there's possibly somebody there with a gun, all right, tactically that officer who was driving the vehicle came up too close, endangering the life of his own partner. But that's not criminal, OK? That's not criminal.

So when that officer got out of that car and saw that kid make a move for that gun, the only thing that officer had to do was fire that gun. He couldn't sit and wait to see if he fired first and if it was a toy or it was a real gun. That officer would have been dead, OK? So that officer and I read this whole report, too.

HILL: Well, you wouldn't have been.

HOUCK: And I believe -- I believe that this report here vindicates the officer completely.

HOLLOWAY: If I can jump in for a second, too, to follow up on Harry's point. You know, the officer did take cover. He fired two shots and immediately took cover. That is objective evidence that suggests that he felt that his life was legitimately in danger.

HOUCK: He didn't even know if he shot the guy. That's why he took cover.

HOLLOWAY: He wasn't sure. He fired two rounds which is typical police training, then he took cover and reassessed the situation.

And contrary to what some of the reports were, there is information in these documents that suggests that the officers were very anxious to get medical care for Tamir Rice very, very quickly. They even went so far as to tell the ambulance drivers to go ahead and step it up, you need to get there more quickly.

So, that shows that there's no conscious indifference for human life, there's no malice and other officers who rolled up on the scene and saw the fake gun. It wasn't until hours later that veteran officers realized it was fake. They all thought it was a real gun.

HOUCK: And, Poppy, let's remember also --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: I want to let Marc get in, too.

HOUCK: Listen, the call didn't come through it was a fake gun. The call came through that it might be a fake gun or it might be a real gun. The caller did not know. So, all I'm doing is hearing that the call came through that it was a fake gun. All right?

Even if the call did come through it was a fake gun, how does that caller know if it was real or fake in the first place? So, that officer can't wait for the first shot to come at him. That officer acted completely properly.

HARLOW: Final word to marc.

HILL: Just a quick correction. The call didn't say that it might be a fake gun. The call said that it was probably a fake gun. Those were the exact words from the document.

HOUCK: He couldn't tell if it was or not, Marc. I listened to it.

HILL: I listened to it as well. I was just correcting the point you made.

Back to the bigger point here, again, I don't -- I don't believe that the officers' intent was to go out there and hunt down a 14-year-old child. I don't think that's the intent of many officers.

So, the fact that he gave him medical attention to me isn't necessarily exculpatory. I mean, even the crazy guy in Charleston who planted evidence called an ambulance right away. I don't think that makes the case for him or against him. I don't think that's necessarily particularly relevant.

I think the question is what judgment did the officer use in that moment and would he have made a different judgment, were it a different child or a different person under those circumstances. To me, those are questions that a grand jury should answer.

Again, I'm not saying throw him in jail. I'm saying let's have a grand jury.

[16:45:04] HOUCK: We're going to have a grand jury. It's going to happen.

HARLOW: People are asking why the grand jury hasn't been called yet. Why it has been 200 plus days. HILL: That's my point.

HOUCK: It takes time, Poppy.

HARLOW: And just to be clear here, guys, I got to wrap it up, to be clear here. Martin Savidge on the ground there in Cleveland reporting for us, Harry, that it doesn't look like a grand jury is going to be called any time soon. We'll be watching and following it as well.

Harry, Marc, Philip, thank you very much.

HOLLOWAY: Thank you.

HARLOW: More ahead on that dangerous attack in Dallas, that ambush of the police officers there overnight. That is ahead.

But, first, the NAACP coming out defending a woman whose parents say that she is white and that she is just passing for being black. The story, next.

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HARLOW: A Spokane, Washington leader in the NAACP is in the headlines. Her parents have come forward and said that she is white, not black as she identifies.

[16:50:02] She's a 37-year-old named Rachel Dolezal. Take a look at the picture. She's a Montana native and her parents provided the picture on the left, that is her as a young girl. And on the right, this is her today.

The NAACP has issued a statement standing by her leadership role. CNN has been trying to reach her to get her side of the story. We have not yet been able to reach her.

Let's talk about this and the bigger picture implications of this with CNN commentator Marc Lamont Hill, also professor at Morehouse College.

Marc, why does this matter? Why can't she just identify how she wants to identify?

HILL: Well, on some level she can, right? It's a free country. I could walk in the room today and say that I am an Asian-American. The question becomes what's at stake when I do that. Whose lives are affected when I make that choice? And is it plausible.

She made it plausible through a whole range of cosmetic choices but she also made it plausible by saying things that simply weren't true representing an adopted son as her -- adopted brother, excuse me, as her son, saying that this man, random man was her father, by inventing an entire story and history that may have denied other people access to choices they would want to make.

You know, doesn't the NAACP hire her or excuse me, elect her president if they know she's white? Does she necessarily get the same advantages in terms of being hired at a university to teach Africana studies if they know who they're hiring?

I think these are questions people have a right to know.

HARLOW: So, the NAACP is saying one's racial identity is not a qualifying criteria or disqualifying standard for NAACP leadership. You do bring up her role as a college professor, though, and say, look, colleges looked to have a diverse faculty and this may have a bigger impact on that front.

HILL: Absolutely. Again, let me be clear. White people can teach African-American studies. White people can lead NAACP. The NAACP began at the Niagara meetings and they were white architects, people like John Dewey who started the NAACP or helped organize those meetings. I'm not saying white people can't do the job. I'm saying if you are hiring someone based on a set of experiences that they lied about, character comes into question.

I'm not questioning her race. I'm questioning her judgment and her character based on the stories that she's told and that's what's problematic for me. But it's also a bizarre sense of entitlement and privilege being exercised here. On the one hand she's a person who is very publicly and very adamantly said things like the black lives matter movement should only be led by black people, outsiders shouldn't be there.

You know, activists like Tim Wise, a white anti-racist activist has been told he can't come to a university and speak on race because she doesn't think white people should be doing it. She has assumed a kind of insider status that has disqualified other white people and made choices for other black people about what they should do and she's not black, either.

I think that's troublesome. I think it's actually pathological although I'm not a psychologist. I would love to find out what happened in her personal story and her family's story that led her here.

HARLOW: And just to be fair here, right, we can't walk in other people's shoes. We don't know what their family situation is. We have no idea.

When we do hear from her, which I suspect we will at some point, what do you want to hear from her? What's the big question you want answered?

HILL: I'd like her to say first of all, who she is. When that question was posed to her on three different occasions that I saw, she had this weird cognitive dissonance in her face. I couldn't tell if it was a deer in the headlights from someone who had been caught lying, or if it was someone who actually had a psychological break in her mind.

I want to know, does she think she's black? Does she think she's biologically connected to a black father? I'm not talking about how she self-identifies. I'm talking about, does she believe her own biography? I want to know that. I want to know why she made the changes she made.

At Howard University, she identified as white. At some point, in college she identified as white. At some point, she identified as black. I spoke to her parents yesterday over at "Huffington Post". One of the things she told me she has always been a child who was delusional. The language they used was she has always been a child who struggled with reality.

HARLOW: Did they say why they came forward with this?

HILL: Yes. I asked them that, because to be honest, I have been pretty skeptical of parents who decide to out their own children, most parents don't do that.

HARLOW: Right.

HILL: And I raised the question, I said is there a legal battle between you two? She said, no, there's no legal battle. She said there's no family business, there's no trauma. They said she had a happy childhood.

They said that the reason that they -- she's upset at them is because she just wants to distance herself from her real parents. She said the reason they came out was because people came to her first. She said there are a lot of reporters and media outlets that were telling this story anyway and they came for the parents and the parents are saying we just answered the questions from the media. We didn't see the benefit in remaining silent.

HARLOW: All right. Marc, thank you. Appreciate it. Important discussion to have. We'll see what happens if we do hear her side of the story.

Coming up next, live to Dallas, Texas, where police are trying to piece together what happened outside their headquarters. A witness will join me who saw and heard this entire ambush play out overnight.

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[16:58:38] HARLOW: Dallas police were stunned, caught off guard completely this morning by the attack on their headquarters downtown.

Rick Birt was also stunned. He served in the marines. He lives with his wife in a high rise right across from police headquarters. He saw this all unfold.

He heard a cracking sound, opened the window and began recording the shootout right outside his window.

He joins me now on the phone from Dallas.

Thank you for being here, Rick.

You were one of the witnesses to this. Take us into this scenario. What was it like? RICK BIRT, RECORDED AMBUSH ON POLICE: It was kind of shocking,

actually. The first sounds we heard were so loud. I did not expect that it would be gunfire. Usually someone would have a pistol or a smaller weapon and so you would think it would be much quieter than what we heard.

So I didn't want to believe it was gunfire. Then went over to the window and opened the window and then heard snaps overhead. So, being a former marine, I could tell that that was gunfire coming in our direction.

And we also heard echoing gunfire so you could tell it was coming from all aspects. I was just trying to show here that the police headquarters, all the alarms were going off in the police headquarters. Several vehicles responded. They are now chasing after the van northward in the video. And then we saw several police officers coming around the south side which is just to the camera right.