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Father Of Dallas Shooter Speaks Out; Exclusive Interview With Marc Benioff; Additional 450 American Troops Heading To Iraq; Aired 5- 6p ET
Aired June 14, 2015 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[17:00:00] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. 5:00 eastern. I'm Poppy Harlow. We begin in Dallas, Texas where the man who attack add police headquarters and then died from a sniper's bullet was at a breaking point. That is what James Boulware's father says about his son. Out of his mind with anger at the police and at the end of his rope. James Boulware's final thing planting pipe bombs outside of the Dallas police department, climbing in an armored van that he bought last week and starting a deadly chain of events that would end with him and only him dead.
Our Sara Sidner is following the story from Dallas.
Sara, you had an incredibly just emotional interview with this suspected gunman's father today. What did he tell you?
SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you know, first of all, we asked him if he recognized his son, if he recognized the van that we have all seen, that police ended up exploding and then an explosion went off inside that van because there was indeed some kind of pipe bomb in the van. And he said, yes. He recognized that that was his son and he recognized the van saying that he had gone to picked up that van. His son had left Texas, taken a bus to Georgia and picked up the van, brought it home.
And just a few hours before he went on the shooting spree, he was at his dad's house. He said he was angry about the police, saying he blamed them for taking his son away. He has been in the midst of a custody battle. But he also said that his son was acting pretty normal and that when he left, he said, look, dad, I'll be back in about ten days to mow your lawn again. He hangout with his dad. But then three hours later, he stormed the Dallas police department, shot it up and then threatened to blow up police and ended up dying himself.
Here's what his father had to say during our emotional interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM BOULWARE, JAMES BOULWARE'S FATHER: Told me he loved me and he was going back to west Texas. And I told him have a safe trip. He left from here. He mowed my yard yesterday. Told me he's going to be back ten days to mow it again.
SIDNER: Did you have any idea when he left -- BOULWARE: No, no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: He says he had no idea. He didn't even know that his son had guns, never mind explosives. He also said he found out when the phone started ringing in the morning. He had gone to bed. And then when the police, the ATF and FBI showed up at his door that afternoon after the shooting telling him that something had indeed happened to his son, that he'd been killed and that they wanted to search his house. He did let them search the house. He said there is just - the only explanation he could think of is that he was and had expressed anger towards the police. He was in the midst of a custody battle that he was losing with his own mother who was getting custody of his son.
And, you know, James' father said he adored his son and his son adored his grandson. So this is a family that has a lot to deal with. The mother also saying she's heart broken.
HARLOW: Absolutely. Think about the child in the midst of all of this, Sara.
We heard yesterday from the judge in the custody battle who said that he had made threats against her before. Now we're learning that this is a man with a long history of violence, arrests, jail time. What do we know?
SIDNER: There was some sort of altercation. And that some of this we got from the father himself. And we asked him. He said about in 2013, there was a fight inside of his mother's house. So James went to his mother's house, he got in some kind of fight over his son at his mother's house. There was another member of the family there as well. And there was an accusation that he had choked his own mother. And then she had hit him back.
He ended up leaving. The police were called. He was picked up in Paris, Texas. And there was some sort of threat she told police that he had a gun and he may shoot a school officer. They closed the school down as well according to his father. It turned out in the end that those charges were actually dropped. But still, the custody battle began. And he knew that he was going to lose that battle. And clearly, was very, very, very angry about that, Poppy.
HARLOW: Stunning what's being revealed in the wake of all this. We'll talk a lot more about it a little later this hour.
Sara, thank you for the reporter and that interview with his father.
Also stunning new details that I want to bring that we are getting about this, the plot laid out by these two convicted murderers to escaped from that prison in upstate New York. Authorities now say that Richard Matt and David Sweat planned their prison break meticulously, possibly sneaking out of their cell at night to practice how they would escape through network of tunnels and steam pipes and out of the manhole eventually. They also were not supposed to be alone in their life on the run.
Authorities say the prison seamstress accused of smuggling tools in to help them escape was actually supposed to pick them up and drive them to a location seven hours away. She backed out at the last minute. That leaves police still searching for where these two men could be on day nine of this manhunt.
This, just in to us as well. Schools in the area around the prison will reopen tomorrow. They will have been closed for obvious reasons. enhanced security and police presence.
Miguel Marquez is right in the middle of where the search has been taking place in Dannemora, New York.
Miguel, what about this new information about these fugitives picking somewhere, we don't know where, seven hours away, that's where the seamstress supposed to drive them. She never showed up. Does that change the search at all?
[17:05:37] MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Likely not because it's not -- if she could be so easily manipulated by - (INAUDIBLE).
HARLOW: All right, we seem to have lost our connection with Miguel. We're going to try to get him back on live with us, reporting from New York where these two prisoners escaped nine days ago now. They are two convicted killers who are still on the loose. And a prison employee is accused, as we said, of helping break them free. Why would anyone do that? We're going to talk to a criminologist next about the psychology behind all of this. Back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:09:27] HARLOW: All right, let's get back to our Miguel Marquez. He is joining us on the phone where this search is still underway in day nine of the search for these escapees, these convicted murders.
Miguel, exactly before the break, has this new information that apparently they were planning to drive seven hours away, has it impacted the search at all or are they still focused on a few miles around the prison?
MARQUEZ (via phone): Not likely to impact it because they don't know whether they were being completely honest with Ms. Mitchell. Most people believe, at least by folks I talk to here that, look, she was so manipulated by them. They're not sure how much they told her was true and how much was false and how much other help that they may have had, even from her, or from others outside the prison. The search, because they have no other real intense area to search right now is still going on very close to the prison itself.
We're just in a shadow of the Clinton correctional facility down a road called Ryan road. There are corrections officers all the way down it with (INAUDIBLE). They have shotguns and that is what residents are dealing with in this entire area. Then they have hundreds of other corrections officers go through the woods as individuals like this are sort of protecting the perimeter and making sure no one can get out of this small, probably three or four square miles of territory that they are concentrating on. They have been through the houses, whether there are people living in them or whether they are summer homes over and over again. Checking on residents making sure nothing has changed, nothing has moved. We came across an evidence team short time ago going into a small river below highway 374 here, pulling something out, anything that they can find that looks to be out of place, they are on top of -- Poppy.
[17:11:17] HARLOW: It's extraordinary. Miguel Marquez, thank you.
The New York state prison seamstress, who Miguel just mentioned, who is charged with helping these cold bloody killers escape from the maximum security facility is due in court tomorrow. Today, we learned that Joyce Mitchell allegedly to planned to drive these two men somewhere seven hours away from the prison, so we don't know where. That is until she backed out at the last minute because she said she did not want to hurt her husband.
According to sources, Mitchell told investigators that Richard Matt made her feel quote "special," but also that she had a relationship with both of the escapees. It is unclear what kind of relationship that was.
And as Tom Foreman Mitchell is not the first prison employee to develop a very close bond with inmates.
((BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At the Baltimore city jail in 2013, officials had never seen anything like it. A vast scheme to smuggle in cell phones, marijuana, prescription drugs and more all under the heavy hand of the black guerrilla family or BGF gang.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This situation unable BGF members to continue to run their criminal enterprise with any jail on the streets of Baltimore.
FOREMAN: Investigators say 13 female correction officers helped for who even got pregnant by the alleged jail mate ring leader.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are committed to ensuring that this activity does not happen again.
FOREMAN: Keeping inmates from enlisting help from those who are closed can be difficult.
In Oklahoma in 1994, the wife of a warden helped an inmate get away and go on the run for 11 years before they were found living together in Texas.
In Phoenix in 1997, a death row inmate had his wife shoot at guards while he ran out. She had been practicing her aim with her landlord.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She told me she was a good shot and that she loved to target practice. And would I take her out to a raping. FOREMAN: In the end, both were gunned down by guards as the prisoner
begged his love for a final way out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Him yelling, you know, shoot me, baby, shoot me. I'm sorry it went wrong.
FOREMAN: And Kansas authorities believe guard and (INAUDIBLE) developed a relationship with inmate Steven Ford at this maximum security prison.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ford was very familiar. And I have heard him mentioned that name many times.
FOREMAN: After she left the job, authorities say she returned and ran off with Ford and another inmate. All three were captured.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know my daughter. She's gullible. And when somebody has 24 hours a day to sit around and think of all the charming things in the world to say, they might charm me. I mean, you know, it's possible.
FOREMAN: And then there was the jailbreak in Brazil earlier this year. Two women dressed in a radical laundry showed up as a prison and seduced a pair of guards with spiked whiskey. The guard woke up in handcuffs to find the women had slipped away and so had 26 prisoners.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: Tom Foreman reporting there.
Well, the woman accused of helping these two escapees is also a wife and she is also a mother. So what would make Joyce Mitchell risk so much to allegedly help these two men.
Criminologist Casey Jordan joins me now to talk about it. Thanks for being here Casey.
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Always great to be here, Poppy.
HARLOW: Do you think the fact that these two men were prisoners plays into the psychology at all, perhaps feeling, I don't know, some guilt that she could leave at the end of the day and they were in this situation? What would drive her to do this?
JORDAN: Yes. We've been talking all week about this concept of hybristophilia (ph). It's paraphilia (ph), but it is not just sexual. It is also very cerebral and very emotional. When women become obsessed with these bad men, men, and to be hybristophilia (ph), they have to have done something really horrible and heinous, like the murders that these two are serving time for. And that's part of the attraction. The idea that they're alpha males. They are the epitome of masculinity and bravery and courage, that turns her on. But at the end of the day as you said, it's a safe relationship. She gets to just live in her head enjoying all of the (INAUDIBLE) of that incredible tingly feeling of being a teenager in love. But at the end of the day, she doesn't actually have to be in a relationship with him or have sex with him or go home to him. It is just a constant fantasy life. And that probably explains why she chickened out at the last minute because her delusion finally popped.
[17:15:36] HARLOW: That's exactly what I was going to ask. What does that say about why she changed her mind at the lost moment. We do know from some of our reporting that she apparently told the authorities at the last minute she felt bad, that she loved her husband and didn't want to hurt him anymore.
JORDAN: Well, I think that's convenient for her to say now especially since they are interviewing her husband and trying to figure out exactly how much he knew. I do think that she was conflicted. But make no mistake, she's going to minimize her culpability in every way now that she's been caught.
I think a few things happened. At the end, she said that they were going to get in this car and drive allegedly for seven hours, but they wouldn't tell her where. If that's true, it had to haunt her that she was willing to put her freedom and life on the line for these two but they didn't trust her enough to even let her know what the destination was. Maybe that was pinned that burst her (INAUDIBLE) and made her realize she wasn't in love with them or one of them, but they didn't really care that much for her.
HARLOW: And everyone wants to hear from her. Why? What drove this? She's making that court appearance tomorrow.
Casey Jordan, thank you very much.
JORDAN: Great to be here.
HARLOW: Coming up next, 450 more American troops heading to Iraq. We're going to take a look at how these American troops already on the ground are preparing Iraqi forces to fight ISIS. Also why the Iraqi say it's not enough.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:20:41] HARLOW: All right. We're getting word that the U.S. military has conducted a counterterrorism strike in Libya. It happened last night. Here is what we know so far.
The department of defense says the strikes were against Al-Qaeda associated terrorists. The military is assessing the results of this operation and the DOD says it will provide additional information when appropriate. Of course, a lot of details we still do not have. But that is the gist of it.
Former CIA counterterrorism official Phil Mudd joins me now from Washington.
What's your assessment of this so far?
PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Well, it's interesting, in the past few months, whether it is Iraq or whether it is Libya, we've been talking about advances from ISIS. And ISIS has made advances into Libya. But the Pentagon was clear in talking about a strike on Al-Qaeda. My only takeaway after a couple of minutes of looking at this is going back to Benghazi, we got to be looking not at how to support the Libyan factions in Libya, but how to respond to what happened in Benghazi a few years ago. I suspect this relates to the identification of specific Al Qaeda, not ISIS by Al-Qaeda targets who have been involved in terrorism operations against the United States.
HARLOW: I think this also shows us there's been so much talk and focus on ISIS, ISIS, ISIS. Clearly, though, this is a multi-faceted fight and clearly the U.S. government is incredibly still focused on Al-Qaeda.
MUDD: Yes. And I think one of the other important aspects of this is to build an intelligence package to go against the point target. That is not against a military organization, not a counter insurgency operations, but to go against specific individual or group of individuals can take a long time and to put hardware on that target from a U.S. air force aircraft can take months or longer. So my guess is that if this is an operation against an Al-Qaeda entity or individual who was involved in Benghazi, that this would have been in the works for quite some time.
HARLOW: All right, Phil, stay with me because I want to get your take on this increasing commitment of U.S. troops on the ground in Iraq. The Obama administration this past week noting that 450 more American troops will be deployed to Iraq to continue to train the Iraqis to fight ISIS. The role would be to advice and to train Iraqi forces. Also, though a real focus on training those Sunni tribe members.
Senior international correspondent Arwa Damon spent time with some of those U.S. troops already on the ground. Let's take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you get up, when you leave this position, you need to spread out.
ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The majority of these American trainers have been here before, multiple times. And like lieutenant Colonel John Schwemmer, did not think they would be back. This is now his sixth tour.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm up!
DAMON: This exercise, how to maneuver while under fire.
LT. COL. JOHN SCHWEMMER, U.S. ARMY: They're reacting on enemy position. On the left side, you see this was the element that came into initial contact with the simulated enemy we have at the end of the line.
DAMON: When the U.S. withdrew from Iraq in December of 2011, American leaders declare the Iraqi security forces competent enough to hold to the security aides (ph) at the time. It was not the case. Today, the Americans insist things are different. SCHWEMMER: On the job is one thing when you have to continue what
you're doing. But when you're out here, you can stop what you're doing, train and retrain those things.
DAMON: And so, if I came here in 2010 and saw a unit going through its fifth week of training, they would not be at this level?
SCHWEMMER: No.
DAMON: Why not?
SCHWEMMER: I think because we would have missed a lot of steps in between.
DAMON: The Americans making sure that does not happen again. This is one of the brigades of the Iraqi army's infantry division. Among them, a squad that had only been in Mosul for 12 day when ISIS assaulted and the men got orders to withdraw.
We are supporting each other, learning to work as one unit, that is the most important thing for us our officers, (INAUDIBLE) said.
His brother was in the army and killed in 2009 in Mosul. His cousin, one of the camp's spiker cadets massacred by ISIS. But training and motivation alone is not enough. The soldiers' lack the gun they want, much of their equipment is tied up in Iraqi logistical failures and bureaucracy.
If we get the weapons we want, we can win, the captain Saleh says. We want heavier weapons, but right now I have some troops who say if these are the guns we have, I can't fight.
Arwa Damon, CNN, Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[17:25:23] HARLOW: These 450 additional troops will be deployed to Anbar province. That is where the capital of Ramadi recently fell to ISIS.
So Phil, your take on this. Because as Arwa said, you know, it's not about just having the right weapons. It's about winning over the hearts and minds, especially of the Sunnis who have felt so disenfranchised from this government for so long. What's your take about this sort of incremental step?
MUDD: You hit the right word. This is incremental. This is a tactical adjustment.
Look. There's some advantages this will give to the Iraqis. One is not just the operational advantage of working in partnership with them and training. It's the sort of psychological advantage of saying we are there with you and we have been for more than a decade.
Another one is to provide rapid operational turnaround because the Americans are closer to the battle field. When the intelligence comes in, they might be able to accelerate airstrikes in support of the Iraqis.
But the bottom line here hasn't change at all. We keep trying to believe that modest adjustments in American assistance can change whether the Iraqi military can beat an insurgent force. Four hundred and fifty people on the ground, Poppy, is not going to change that story.
HARLOW: The chairman of the joint chief of staff, Gen. Martin Dempsey, says this mission in Iraq will include the use of these Lilly pad bases right near the front lines, much closer than before. Explain to us what those are and how they impact the strategy.
MUDD: You're looking at ISIS trying to take over isolated cities when they sense weakness. You can think of an insurgent force like water. They're going to go to the weakest point where they think the Iraqi military isn't present and try to take over the town, intimidate the town and then defend themselves as the Iraqis try to move back in.
What the Americans are saying is sort of like what happened to the Japanese in World War II. You go island hopping, in this case city hopping, to try to cut off the lines of support for ISIS from Syria. Instead of controlling an entire geography going from city to city, as you say Lilly pad hopping to try to slowly cut off that back door that the ISIS forces have going into Syria.
HARLOW: How do you win the hearts and minds? If you say, look, 450 more is pretty negligible in terms of being incremental in your opinion, then how do you win the hearts and minds that felt so disenfranchised from this government?
MUDD: Boy, the government, the Baghdad government, obviously, a Shia majority government has dug itself a big hole with the Sunnis. I'd say they got to take a couple steps and I question. I'm skeptical about whether they'll take any of these steps.
Number one, and this is an interesting aspect that the Americans will be able to pick, are the Iraqis going to take the risk of supplying more weapons to the Sunnis. Because, obviously, a Shia government in Baghdad use that as a risk.
Number two, what's going to happen over the long term with oil revenues? Is there going to be a deal with the Sunnis as there were the Kurds about how to cut oil revenues for Anbar province? And then you have the final political question. Are the Shia who took so long to defeat Saddam, remember Saddam was a Sunni. Are they going to say we'll give you more positions in Baghdad, more positions in the cabinet. Are we going to give you more of an opportunity to run our own politics. I doubt it. I think they all for three on economics military politics.
HARLOW: Yes. But that's what Haider Al-Abadi says that they are going to do.
Phil Mudd, thank you very much.
MUDD: Thank you. HARLOW: Coming up next, Hillary Clinton's campaign in full swing and
her husband, the former president, talked about her Republican competitors with our very own Jake Tapper.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: First of all, they have a lot of youth, energy, some significant diversity. And they're no dummies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: How the quote, "brand-new Hillary Clinton" plans to face both her Democrat and Republican contenders.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:33:25] HARLOW: We turn now to the 2016 presidential race. President Bill Clinton is speaking out about candidate, his wife, Hillary Clinton and her potential Republican opponents. He's complimenting them saying that Republican hopefuls are quote "impressive" and that they they've got a lot of energy. He spoke with our very owned, Jake Tapper -- watch.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST, STATE OF THE UNION: Hey, Poppy. We sat down with former president Bill Clinton. We got to ask him any question we wanted. He did ask that we asked about some of the issues that he is working on with the Clinton global initiatives such as the economy and urban America.
We, of course, had some big questions for him about his wife and about the Clinton foundation. Questions about donations made to the foundation. Questions made about her trustworthiness and her honesty. The American people, according to poll didn't have some concerns about those. The former president said that he was assured because he knew that the American people would learn the truth ultimately and he was, in a way, heartened by the fact that these attacks are coming so soon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: I think when people go to personal attacks this far before the election, it means they're scared of you and they should be. She'd be a very good president and I think she's proven to be a pretty good candidate. I'm very proud of that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Of course he has his biases. But he's one of the keenest political minds of his generation so we couldn't not ask him about his take on his wife's potential Republican rivals. Here's what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: I think they don't know. Do they need somebody who's new, do they need somebody who's seasoned? Do they need someone that a forward leaning on immigration or will it (INAUDIBLE) their people they stay in home? You know, they got all these decisions to make. But in the end, it's going to come down to who's the most electable candidate because they want to win.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[17:35:16] TAPPER: He also defended the contributions made to the Clinton foundation saying that nobody can point to any evidence that anything was done in exchange for them. Although when I asked him is it possible that people making the donations, governments, corporations, wealthy individuals, wanted something in return, he said, I don't know - Poppy.
HARLOW: Jake, fascinating interview. And congrats to Jake on the launch of "THE STATE OF THE UNION," every Sunday morning 9:00 a.m. eastern.
Well, the two presidential hopefuls consider their parties, respect their front runners are now front and center. Tomorrow, Jeb Bush will officially declare he's a candidate for the Republican nomination. Just yesterday, we saw Hillary Clinton step out for her first major campaign rally in New York.
Lest talk about all of it as Republican strategist Lisa Boothe, also with us Marc Lamont Hill, a CNN political commentator.
Guys, thank you for being here. I want you to listen to part of what Jeb Bush said to our Dana Bash in his European tour that he embarked on this week talking about how he realizes that he has to show voters who he is beyond being a Bush. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, Jeb is different than George. And Jeb is who he is. My life story's different. And I got to do that when I ran as governor. And I got to share my passion for service when I was governor and telling that story is going to be part of this. I don't have to disassociate myself from my family. I love them. But I know that for me to be successful, I'm going to have to show my heart and tell my story.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Really interesting. What stood out to me there, Lisa, show my heart, show my story. This is someone who says, hey, I'm an introvert. You are a Republican strategist. How does he do it best?
LISA BOOTHE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, you know, and I do absolutely think he needs to show his heart. He does need to tell his story because he does have to differentiate himself from the Bush dynasty. We saw him get a little tripped up with that, with the question about Iraq. But you know, Jeb Bush has been polling in the top three in every national poll we've seen. He's also led key states like New Hampshire which we have seen recently as well. He's also hired some of the best political operatives and likely going to post huge fund raising numbers. And you know, Jeb Bush has a strong economic record that he can point
to when he was governor of Florida. However, I think Republicans still have questions, especially conservatives on the issues of, you know, common core and immigration. And you know, as I mention too, you know, with his response to Iraq, it did show a glimpse of vulnerability there.
HARLOW: I want to play you, guys, part of this video. The Bush camp has just released this brand-new three-minute video. They are expected to play it tomorrow at the announcement. Let's watch and talk about it on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: The barriers right now on people rising up is the great challenge of our time. So many people could do so much better if we fixed a few things. My core beliefs start with the premise that the most vulnerable in our society should be in the front of the line, not the back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Marc, what's your take on the video? He talks so much about income inequality. You saw minorities in there. You didn't seen one white man speaking in the video other than him.
MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Income inequality and economic populism is what's hot in these Republican streets these days. Everybody's pushing that message. Even Mitt Romney had before he decided not to run was on that message. So this is actually an ideal position for Jeb Bush to take. The question is will hard line traditional Republicans buy this. Much of their concern on the last two elections has been we keep compromising. To Bill Clinton's point, we keep putting up the candidate that has the best chance of being electable even when we have compromised core Republican values. We did that with McCain. We did that with Romney. This time, they may want a hard core died in the wolf Republican and not just someone who they think polls better. And if that's the case, Jeb Bush is going to have trouble because of immigration and because of some other issues.
HARLOW: It is interesting last month, Jeb Bush in New Hampshire talking about Mitt Romney saying if you don't define yourself and exactly who you are, they will define you. Harkening back to that, I want you both to take a look at this. Hillary Clinton obviously made her big rally yesterday. Look at the front of the "New York Post," right? You've got Hillary Clinton there taking on income inequality sort of dressed as Robin Hood. Lisa, what's your take on that?
BOOTHE: I think it's quite laughable that Hillary Clinton is trying to drive this economic income inequality populous there because she lacks credibility on the issue. She has zero credibility on the issue. She calls for toppling the one percent, but she is the one percent. She says she's going to be a champion for middle class families, but she hasn't driven a car in 18 years.
HARLOW: Wait, Lisa, just on second. You don't have to be poor to advocate for the poor.
BOOTHE: I'm not and I understand that. And I actually agree with you on that issue. However, I think she's hypocritical on the issue because this is a woman who says that she's going to be a champion for the middle class. But she's said that having over $100 million in the bank account does not make her truly well off. Also, what we have not heard from her is her differentiating --
[17:40:13] HILL: Well, that's not what she said.
BOOTHE: Hold on, Marc. But we also have not heard from her differentiating her policies than what we've seen under President Obama. And what see under President Obama is middle class families are hurting. Their wages has diminish and their job prospects have diminished as well.
HARLOW: I thought it was interesting, Marc, she really took on Wall Street and took on some of these hedge funds in a big way yesterday.
HILL: She absolutely did. To Lisa's first point, if the argument as I just heard it is that to have extraordinary amounts of wealth, which Hillary Clinton does, disqualifies you or makes you less than credible on having a poor --
BOOTHE: It's hypocrisy.
HILL: Tight. But then that same hypocrisy would go towards Mitt Romney because he wants to address economic and inequality. It would go through the Bush dynasty which also was the top in economic and inequality. Every Republican candidate has said that. Most of them have into generation wealth. So I don't think -- I'll let you finish. Let me finish.
So I don't think that is the issue here. But Hillary Clinton has offered concrete policies here whether it's taking on Wall Street. And again, is it Elizabeth Warren style or Bernie Sanders style? No. There is plenty of room for Hillary. But I do think she is in her policy is what we should be looking at. Taking on Wall Street and advocating for a federal minimum wage. Even healthcare reform, all of these things are waste to get at these issue. If you don't like her policy, fine. But I don't think the hypocrite card should be played this time.
HARLOW: All right, got to leave it there, guys.
Marc Lamont Hill, Lisa Booth, thank you both. Appreciate it.
BOOTHE: Thank you, Poppy.
HARLOW: Coming up next, you heard it first on this show. A Texas judge who says the man responsible for yesterday's Dallas attack at police headquarters had a long history of violence and mental illness. Next we're going to take a look at James Boulware's frightening past.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:45:00] HARLOW: Well, a man with a history of mental illness and violence attacked police headquarters in Dallas on Saturday. That led police on a high speed chase. Eventually, the man was killed by a sniper shot. His name was James Boulware. And his father describes him as so angry of police that he exploded. His father saw him just a few hours before the shooting spree. And he said he had no idea anything like that was about to happen.
Sara Sidner is following the story in Dallas.
So you spoke with his father?
SIDNER: I did. His father talked about some of the issues that he recognized his son had. His son very, very angry and blamed police for his problems particularly when it came to getting custody of his son. He had custody at one point, then he realized he was losing custody to his own mother, the boy's grandmother. And he talked to me about what his son felt and what he talked about when it came to police.
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JIM BOULWARE, JAMES BOULWARE'S FATHER: I knew he was angry at police. He blamed them for taking his son. I tried to tell him, the police didn't do it, the police were doing their job to enforce the laws. If you want to get to that, you got to go back to the liberal people that put these laws in place to where CPS can grab kids away. They are just enforcing laws.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: And his father said that he argued with his son, James, over this issue and that his son, James, said that he would prefer anarchy to having the police in place. His father argued back and forth with him. He said, yes, he did say that, but he said he never indicated that he was actually going to take some sort of violent action against police. But if you look at the police department behind me and see the more than 50 bullet holes that we have seen in that window and the police car and then the explosion inside of his van because there were pipe bombs there, you know he had a violent plan - Poppy.
HARLOW: Sara Sidner, thank you for the reporting. It's a tragic situation all around.
Quick break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:51:33] HARLOW: Welcome back.
Realizing the potential of women is not just the right thing to do, it is the smart thing to do. Those words coming from republican presidential candidate Carly Fiorina speaking at the state of women in America forum this week. She says she wants to reclaim the word feminism, a word she says has been reclaimed largely by the left.
On the issue of gender equality, the former Hewlett Packard CEO says we came a long way, but not nearly far enough.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
We know that the status quo is a powerful force. Change is always difficult and slow whether it's in Washington, D.C. or in the nation. I experienced this reality firsthand and I know that unfortunately we still do not have a level playing field.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: A level playing field that is a concept of the billionaire of CEO of salesforce.com and throwing his effort in to. His name is Marc Benioff. And he told me this week, he wants his company to achieve a 50-50 ratio of men to women within five years. I sat down with him in San Francisco.
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MARC BENIOFF, CEO, SALESFORCE: Women executives in our companies, they want to know they are being paid the same as men.
HARLOW: Of course.
BENIOFF: Of course. And that there is a history in our industrial and in our country where that is not true, that women get paid less.
HARLOW: Do you not find that happening here?
BENIOFF: We have found a little bit of it. Fortunately, we haven't found as much of it as I worried we might have found. We did find that the 20 top women are paid more than the 20 top men. So that was nice. And - but we did find some inequality and we are correcting that.
HARLOW: I know you said this process might even take a few years, right? I mean, when do you feel like sales force will be at that point where there is full equality in pay?
BENIOFF: I would really like to achieve that within 12 months. That's my goal. And then I will tell you like I said that it's a few years to give myself some breathing room. But I would like to get that off the list and be able to say we have a quality at Salesforce for women and that we are committed to women having the same executive roles and all possibilities for them as well. And I also want to be able to say that the number of women that we are hiring is increasing. I think this is also really important for the tech industry.
HARLOW: If not a bigger problem.
BENIOFF: Huge issue. Huge issue. So when I started Salesforce, Poppy, I wanted to create a new technology company. I wish, honestly, that I could rewind time and go back and put that women's equality issue into the culture from the beginning. I think now looking back 16 years that was as big of an issue as the philanthropy issue for me right now. So that I really, we have a platform to say here's a great example of how to build a company. HARLOW: What would you say because so much has been made over the
past year especially of the lack of women in the startups on these boards. A lot of talk about sexism in Silicon Valley. What would you say to the young Marc Benioff out there starting these companies about women?
BENIOFF: I would say that leadership is easy. You decide what you want and you achieve it. But this is an important discussion because we have to create awareness that women's equality and women leaders and hiring women is important companies. Let's put it in right at the beginning. You can decide what kind of company you want to have and the leader you want to be. That's the power of being a CEO.
[17:55:19] HARLOW: Salesforce is 71 percent male, 80 percent of the tech jobs here are occupied by men and the leadership positions are 85 percent men. Where do you want those to be in five years?
BENIOFF: Well, I think we have to take the goal up to 50-50. And I think it's absolutely doable.
HARLOW: Do you think, though, there has to be a quota?
BENIOFF: I think there has to be a goal. I think you have to have a clear goal. Just as a CEO might have a market share goal, you know, or other type of leadership goal or EPS goal or revenue goal.
HARLOW: This should be that important.
BENIOFF: Absolutely. It has to be a metro-fet (ph) every CEO manages.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: Our thanks to Marc Benioff for that.
Much more of my interview with him on CNNmoney.com.
Coming up next, police armed with new details in the hunt for these two escape convicted? It has been nine days and no sight of them. Also we know more about the incredible plot to free them. That's coming up.
But first you will not believe these pictures. Where did this happen and why? We will explain, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:00:00] HARLOW: People are being warned to stay indoor after the deadly flooding destroy the enclosures in a zoo in Georgia's capital of Tabuli (ph). See, these are incredible pictures showing bears, tigers, lions, wolves on the loose in the city.
