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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Search For Prison Escapes Gone Cold; Source: Escapees Planned to Kill Prison Worker's Husband; Prison Worker Had Sexual Relationship with Richard Matt; Race and Identity; Stepping Down: Dolezal Quits NAACP Amid Charges She Lied About Her Race; Bush: I'm Running; New Details Released on Tamir Rice Investigation; 2 Teens Lose Limbs In Shark Attacks At Same Beach. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired June 15, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Their trail apparently cooling. The news surrounding their escape though, that is heating up tonight in a very big way. Late word that David Sweat and Richard Matt were planning to kill prison worker (ph) Joyce Mitchell's husband when they got out.
Now the big question, was it a bonus for her health or was it a threat if she refuse to help, or is it all seem sort of a red herring to divert attention from their real getaway plan whatever that might have been, a tangled web, no doubt about it. One that we'll try to untangle starting with Randi Kaye's reporting. She joins us now.
So what are you learning about this plot to kill Joyce's husband.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, this is new information coming to us from a source with direct knowledge of this investigation. This source telling that the two escapees, Richard Matt and David Sweat, did have this plan to kill Lyle Mitchell that is Joyce Mitchell's husband. The question is why were they planning to kill him, when were they planning to kill him, how were they planning to kill him. And what we also don't know is how much detail Joyce Mitchell actually knew about this plan to kill her husband. We knew that she was aware of it though, Anderson.
Also, the same source telling me tonight that Joyce Mitchell did have a sexual relationship, not just a friendship, with Richard Matt, one of those escapees.
Now, he's the escapee who's a very violent man. He killed and dismembered his neighbor. It's unclear, Anderson, how long that sexual relationship was going on or how they were able to carry it out in the prison.
COOPER: Well, all of this information, I assume now, is coming, I mean, you're citing a source but it's coming from Joyce Mitchell herself ultimately. So, the flaw in all of this is, if she is incorrect whether this may be sort of their plan B, as one of our guess in the last hour, suggested that maybe there was another plan that these two had and that they just kind of gave her a lot of information that she might end up giving authorities. KAYE: Right. I mean, there is a lot of question about were they really relying on her, were they setting her up, did they want to go with somebody else, do they really have taken her along with them? Maybe there was a plan to kill her. They're all trying to figure that out right now.
All the investigators are hard at work on that. They're talking to a lot of people as we told you, they're talking to Lyle Mitchell, her husband, but they're also talking to her son Tobey Mitchell, Anderson. They've questioned him by -- police have met with him at least once.
They wanted to know from him according to the District Attorney today telling me that police asked him what he knew about the man's relationship with his mom, Joyce Mitchell, what had she told them about the men, what had she told him about her plans with the men, and what he knew about her relationship with them.
COOPER: And what's the latest on the manhunt itself?
KAYE: Well, the trail is getting cold, so investigators right now are resorting to other means. I have right here, this is a motion detector and this is what they're setting up in the woods, they're attaching them to trees. They actually have cameras on them and sensors so if somebody were to walk by and the sensor picked up some activity, it could actually take a picture and that'd be one way of knowing if these guys were still in the area because they just don't know.
The bloodhounds are still out there but the scent has certainly grown weaker. Still, nearly 900 leads, Anderson, they have found nothing, they had searched and cleared more than 400 homes and still nothing. And the Governor today, Anderson, saying that they could be in this area or maybe they're in Mexico. That is the last thing that searchers here want to hear.
COOPER: Yes, a lot of ground between here and there. Randi, I appreciate it.
We are now in the possibility that not only did Joyce Mitchell not want Matt and Sweat to kill her husband, she was terrified that they might. That's an alterative idea.
Miguel Marquez joins us now has new information from his sources. What have you heard?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is a State source that is telling CNN that it is possible that Joyce Mitchell is saying that the relationship was developed between these two inmates that as she begin to help them. They then turned that relationship on her, telling her that if she didn't continue to help them that they would turn her in. She essentially got afraid for her own situation and was afraid to either back out of it, tell authorities or continue on, Anderson.
COOPER: And in terms of what her husband knew, do we know what the investigators are saying about that? MARQUEZ: This is where it -- the plot to kill him may come in. It may be that she -- that they basically told her, her husband Lyle also working in the prison, that they would kill him if she didn't continue to cooperate with him. So all of these became a very sort of tightly closed loop, all she had to do was to go to authorities but because she begin -- she got cold feet, she was talking to picking them up that night before all that happened, she couldn't go through with it and basically back out of it but then never told authorities either, Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Miguel Marquez, thank you.
Here to talk about where the case may lead, our Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin and Mark Geragos. Jeff's obviously a former Federal Prosecutor, Mark, as you've might have herd, is one of the better Criminal Defense Attorneys around.
So Mark, the new reporting that here was murder plot against Joyce Mitchell's husband, I mean, if she knew about that and was going along with it, I assume she could face additional charges for that, couldn't she?
[21:05:00] MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, absolutely. And I will tell you, although this is all speculation. This makes infinitely more sense than the previous reports that were coming out last week that they were looking at him and, at the same time, suggesting that there were some kind of a sexual relationship between her and the escapees. So this, at least, rings a little bit more true.
Look, she has got a -- she is in a world of hurt. There -- she has got virtually nowhere to go at this point. She is talk, and talk, and talk and they probably blend all the information out of her before she got lawyered up. And at this point, she is just got to get down and pray every minute of everyday that nobody gets hurt in the capture of these two.
COOPER: OK. Because as you pointed out, she'd be the -- I mean, if they hurt somebody, they kill somebody and they got killed, she is the last person standing.
GERAGOS: She is the last person standing and nobody is going to have any sympathy or empathy for her whatsoever. So we...
GERAGOS: ... and she will be the -- some creative prosecutor will charge her with some kind of a death case and it will -- her life as she knows, it will be over even though and probably he is right now.
COOPER: And, Jeff, law enforcement officials are also investigating whether these two men in some way threatened her, they forced her to help in the escape. If that is in fact the case, would that change the D.A.'s (ph) case against her, even if she had actually helped if she was under some sort of duress or treat? JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: She could claim that but if in fact she gave all of this equipment to them without going to the authorities and reporting them, I think it's very difficult. It's going to be very difficult to make any sort of duress defense.
Now, another thing worth keeping in mind in all of this is potentially just how devious these guys are. It is entirely possible that they told her that they were going to, you know, run off with her and they might have killed her. So, you know, she is at some level, a sympathetic figure but no prosecutor, no jury, no judge is going to feel much sympathy for her because she allowed herself to get manipulated, and she participated, and it seems in a very, very terrible escape.
COOPER: Mark, I mean, there's a cynical way of looking at it too which is that it would be, certainly, very convenient to claim that she was being forced to do this.
GERAGOS: Well, and that's what a lot of people are going to say and I guarantee you that's what some prosecutor is going to say. However, by all accounts and I hate to prejudge her but this does not look like the most sophisticated woman in the world. It looks like she was manipulated by a couple of, you know, sociopath for lack of a better term, and that she was bedeviled (ph) by these guys and who knows what they were telling her or what was involve. And it's pathetic, I mean, in a certain level...
GERAGOS: ... you -- there is a degree of sympathy or empathy just because she is such a pathetic figure in all of this. And at one level, she is a victim but she is unwitting conspirators at the same time.
COOPER: And Jeff, the district attorney said earlier tonight that he is not totally confident that Joyce Mitchell has told him everything she knows. Now, if that's true, could she, I mean, again, is it another potential charge of withholding information?
TOOBIN: I don't think they could charge her with withholding information at this point. She is not obligated to say anything at all. She has one thing to offer that might do her some good which is to help them find these guys.
But at this point, after all these days as Mark said, I think it's very hard to imagine that they haven't gotten everything they're going to get from her. The one thing they could do her some good, some judge might pay attention to in sentencing is, if she really did help the authorities catch these guys.
But look it's been a longtime...
TOOBIN: ... they've been speaking to her for a longtime and they haven't found them. COOPER: Yeah.
TOOBIN: So I just don't -- I think she has got very few options that are going to do...
COOPER: Right. If she had actionable intelligence you would think that it would been acted on right now.
TOOBIN: Days ago.
COOPER: Yeah. Jeff Toobin, thank you, Mark Geragos as well.
Coming up next, more with the local district attorney has to say about the degree of Joyce Mitchell's cooperation, I'm going to talk to him. And later the strange and totally, not only just confusing case of Rachel Dolezal, the whole unexpected debate in his part about race and identity.
COOPER: Again tonight, our breaking news, officials believe murder may have been part of David Sweat and Richard Matt's escape plan. Namely the murder of alleged accomplish Joyce Mitchell's husband Lyle. The question was, was it a bonus for her, was it a treat to her, or simply some sort of a diversion?
More now on her legal status, her relationship with the pair of fugitive, I spoke about it earlier this evening with Clinton County District Attorney Andrew Wylie.
COOPER: Mr. Wylie, just as this evening, we learned there was a murder plot against Joyce Mitchell's husband that these men intended to kill him. What if anything can you say about that?
ANDREW WYLIE, CLINTON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: There's been a determination that we will not comment on the -- this part of the investigation due to the severity of the allegations. We are continuing to work with Joyce Mitchell and she wants to continue to work with us.
COOPER: The fact that Joyce Mitchell had had a sexual relationship with Richard Matt, do you have any idea how long that was going on for her?
WYLIE: Any allegations of sexual relationship between Richard Matt and Joyce Mitchell, I'm not going to comment on.
COOPER: There was a report that she gave Matt gloves similar to boxing gloves along with glasses and batteries as far back as October of 2013, I'm wondering if you can confirm that, and if so, is there any indications she brought in other contraband between 2013 and the weeks leading up to the escape?
WYLIE: He brought those into him in late 2013. It was then later that she brought in the reading -- or glasses with lights on them and she was told by Matt that -- excuse me, they're using those to stay up late at night to paint pictures or to read, and that she provided batteries with them. I think subsequent to that when, you know, the investigation started picking up as far as our interviews with her that, you know, she advice us that obviously she was aware that there were probably using those to down in the tunnels to cut through the walls, in the pipes and the tunnels.
[21:15:00] COOPER: Earlier today, you told Randi Kaye that investigators found additional notes left with the fugitives. Do you have anymore information about those notes, where they were found, what they might have said?
ANDREW WYLIE, CLINTON COUNTRY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Not what they said but it's just indications as my understanding. They're almost like a roadmap on their, you know, their progressive daily, you know, search of a way out of the facility, to looking at those notes in helping them mark their way out when they finally made their escape.
COOPER: And finally, do you think Joyce Mitchell has given you everything that she knows. And at this point, given where it is, is she still cooperating, does she now have an attorney, is she still talking?
WYLIE: Right. She does have an attorney. She expressed that she wanted to continue to speak with law enforcement officers. She was brought to Plattsburgh for her (inaudible) parents today. And at that point in time, she continue to speak out relative to her involvement with police officers, with Mr. Bruno present. And I'm waiting to hear from Mr. Johnson to see if she wants to continue to speak with us. And if she does, we'll talk with her.
COOPER: And do you know has there been any communication between her and her husband has her husband visited her?
WYLIE: It's my understanding that he has not visited her since she's been taken into custody. And further, that they have not have any telephone communication.
COOPER: Andrew Wylie, I appreciate your time. Thank you.
WYLIE: Thank you sir.
COOPER: So that's the background that we know. I want to turn next to former U.S. Marshal John Cuff who headed up the service as Northeast Fugitive Investigation Division.
The news, John, that needs to may have had some sort of a plot to kill Joyce Mitchell's husband. Does it make any sense to you, I mean, does it -- we don't know if she was involve it, if it was the threat use against her or this is some sort of kind of a red herring, this was just like a plan B.
JOHN CUFF, FORMER U.S.MARSHAL: It doesn't make sense at all. I mean, on face of it, going back to when these guys before they escape. They'll exploit someone, they'll see weakness on someone. They will use whatever they can to befriend to many.
So I might have sorted out with somethings small like first they brought him maybe a sandwich or something like that, then it leads to different things. And once they have her, and I don't want to shift to her, OK? Then, they had this relationship where they'll tell her and anything they want to achieve their goal.
So along that way, maybe they had a conversation like that but is it really possible that they would -- as soon as they come out of that manhole, they going to go kill the husband.
COOPER: The idea is, if she had driven the getaway car for them, I mean, that she would have stayed with them that also doesn't seem possible.
CUFF: I think she would be expandable, or they got to where they were going to go. She would used...
CUFF: A liability, use her for whatever they need to use her for.
COOPER: The fact that there's no evidence yet of any vehicles being stolen in the area, no sign of cabin that's been broken, and to a story that's been broken into, supplies taken. What does that tell you?
CUFF: That indicates one of two things, either she was played all the way with this that she was going to be the getaway driver and maybe it's possible that there was a plan B another getaway.
COOPER: Because we know that cellphone was used so perhaps somebody else had been called.
CUFF: Absolutely, someone out there. These two escapees do not seem to have any type of support network out there any reach, any elaborate support base with safe houses...
CUFF: .. and so on like that. So very well -- maybe, so I hope -- I'm hoping that there's still up in those woods and that they apprehend them soon.
Law enforcement has to go before you, right. So what you were given the handy or that was this that they were up there, that she was suppose to have that getaway car.
But you got to remember too, there's a fugitive investigation going on. Law enforcement is not putting all of their eggs in this one basket.
COOPER: And the fugitive investigation is a much wider net (ph).
CUFF: Absolutely, they're going to go through from day one. They would have exploited any information that's on that prison, the visit records, the phone records, the associates...
CUFF: ... the criminal backgrounds. So it'll include, let's say, where they visit on the lower library, the inmate library to use computers, books what sites were they accessing, things with that nature, right, to include their jail property, personal property.
COOPER: Right. So it's a multiprong investigation?
CUFF: Absolutely. And those leads will develop and leads will pinned (ph) on around the country or around the world (inaudible).
COOPER: Well, watch you John Cuff, I appreciate your expertise. Thank you very much.
CUFF: All right.
For more on the story, (inaudible) of course we got cnn.com.
Just ahead, Rachel Dolezal stepping down from her post to the NAACP, she still hasn't answered the alligations that prompted her resignation, that for years she's lied about her race, and she was black, when her parents said she and they are white.
COOPER: Tonight, a lot of people are still waiting to hear from Rachel Dolezal. They want answers and explanation.
For days, the longtime civil rights activist has been in undergrowing pressure to address allegations by her own parents. In a very least, that she has lied for years about her race. She says she's black, her parents say she's white like they are. They've released photos of their daughter when she was young as well as her own birth certificate.
Today, Dolezal short-circuited some of the anger over the revelations. She resigned from her post at the Spokane chapter of the NAACP. Stephanie Elam has the latest.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rachel Dolezal still didn't answer the burning question about her race.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your parents, are they whites?
ELAM: The President of the Spokane NAACP chapter is stepping down. Writing in this letter, "I have waited in deference while others expressed their feelings -- absent the full story. It is with complete allegiance to the cause of racial and social justice that I step aside. I will never stop fighting for human rights". That resignation changing tonight's plan protest into a rally for healing. KITARA MCCLURE, SPOKANE NAACP MEMBER: We're going to make the
conscious decisions to forgive Rachel, forgive all the things that have happened.
ELAM: Yet, the National Conversation continues to brew, with Dolezal's adopted brother calling his sister's behavior "Black face". Here he is on ABC.
EZRA DOLEZAL, RACHEL DOLEZAL'S BROTHER: When she took me aside when I was over there and told me to make sure that no one found out where she was actually from and for me not to blow her cover.
[21:25:00] R. DOLEZAL: This is what we have. We have older white men on our current...
ELAM: But this revelation, it's giving fuel to some of her critics who now see Dolezal's actions as deliberate and calculating.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a hurtful thing for me because I believe some -- I believed in somebody that I thought was someone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Though Dolezal is stepping down, she says she's not backing down from her social activism, as then some Spokane honor despite their dramatic turn.
AYANNA KY FERNANDEZ, STUDENT: That didn't change how we feel about Rachel, and it doesn't discredit her work and everything that she has built and accomplished since -- as long as we have all known her.
COOPER: Stephanie Elam joins us now from Spokane, Washington.
So, you're at a rally outside the offices of the NAACP there. What's the latest?
ELAM: Yeah, let's just show you what it looks out there. It's rather relatively small, Anderson, but a small group of people out there saying that they want to show the world that they can forgive and move forward. At one point, one speaker actually going forward and saying that what really need to happen here, that everyone needs to pray for everyone here, for the organization and also pray for Rachel as there's this new change taking place here for this chapter of the NAACP, Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Stephanie Elam, I appreciate it.
A lot to talk about, joining me now is Senior Political Contributor and New York Times' Op-Ed columnist Charles Blow also, Cultural Critic and Writer Michaela Angela Davis.
Michaela, you and I talked last week, I'm just wondering your latest thoughts on this. Where you are now? Did she need to step down? What do you want to hear from her?
MICHAELA ANGELA DAVIS, CULTURAL CRITIC AND WRITER: I want to hear why. I think most people do. You know, ironically, a couple of years ago, I wrote an essay in an anthology called "Everything But the Burden", what white people are taking from black culture. What is odd about her is she wants the burden. You know, she takes on the struggle, the hair struggle, the identity struggle which also...
COOPER: But can she do that?
DAVIS: No. In my opinion, you cannot achieve blackness. Black, being black is something that you belong to. It is not something that you borrow. You cannot have the history, you can't own the history. You can't own the heritage. You can't own the complexities and go what it's like to be, particularly, light skinned black girl and having to defend your identity all the time is a very particular experience.
COOPER: Constantly, thing as what are you?
DAVIS: Yes, what are you?
COOPER: Where are you from?
DAVIS: Right, exactly. And this is what this is triggering for a lot of black girls out there and lot of black women. It's a very specific kind of scab that she's picking at with black woman who have had to defend their beauty, to defend their natural hair, all of that.
COOPER: And so, one of her siblings point which is saying that she's wearing black face. I mean, is she wearing some sort of toner on her skin?
DAVIS: Yeah. I think she has a very sophisticated expression of her performance her blackness. Like, I think that she is performing in the legacy of a Kathleen Cleaver or Angela Davis, that she has studied us. She knows that that foundation is closer to mixed race skin or skin like mine that has yellow undertone, (hot pink)...
COOPER: So, to make up in a sense of...
DAVIS: Yet, she's doing something very sophisticated because she doesn't -- you've seen her look kind of orange, where with that famous (nimb), orange is the new black with her face. She has gotten better at her performance of blackness. And it is very sophisticated down to her, announcing her twist out to have hair that performs like mine, that performs like, you know, mixed race people.
And so her physique is so detailed in her wanting to be inside of this body. It's so detailed and it is hurtful. And I feel like there needs to be some prayers for all the black people that she has hurt.
COOPER: Charles, do you see this deceitful?
CHARLES BLOW, NEW YORK TIMES OP-ED COLUMNIST: It was absolutely deceitful. I mean, it is, as you explained, it's an elaborate deceit, right. And as some of the people in the peace (ph) were saying, it doesn't necessarily take away from your talents and whatever you may have accomplished. But those accomplishments do not do, erase the deceit, right? And the deceit cannot -- it can buttress the accomplishments. I think those things are operating kind of in separate kind of spheres, then I think we have to keep that in mind. I don't...
COOPER: It is interesting because the NAACP, in their initial statement, they focused on her accomplishments.
COOPER: And said, look, you know, the NAACP has many white members and that's fine. But they seemed to completely ignore the whole question of a deceit.
BLOW: Right, and so does she, right? So, when she, in her letter that she publishes that says she's resigning, is all about the work and none of it is about deceit. None of it is about the interpersonal play that I am performing between myself and the people who trust and love me, and the people who have looked up to me. None of it is about that.
And I think that that's a personal thing. You know, my mom always says, if you tell the truth, no one remember what you say. This one then, it seems, is performing her entire life. She has to remember everything that she says and she is creating an entire bad story, I watched one video of her.
[21:30:00] Today, when she was talking about being 4 years old and having to negotiate between the brown crayon and the peach crayon...
COOPER: In fact, let's play that, let's play that video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RACHEL DOLEZAL: I think my first portrait that I drew myself when I was four years old, I think I was four and I -- all my portraits were like, you know, with the brown crayon. Brown crayon, black hair, you know, I look great. They're curls or whatever and the teacher saying that -- like taking away the brown crayon away and saying, "You need the peach crayon."
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So that probably didn't happen?
CHARLES BLOW: Well, if the pictures that her parents have produced are real, you can't have had the black hair if you had the blond hair, right? And also the negotiation between the peach crayon and the brown crayon, unless if she was having some sort of dissonance or if she was identifying with the adopted brothers that she had, and that she was kind of picturing herself even at four years old as being black, even though the image that she saw in the mirror was not black, maybe that some of those does happened.
We don't know what's happened -- psychologically what's happening --
COOPER: Right. So I believe those kids were adopted a lot later on?
DAVIS: Later. And you would think that her parents like, you know, this comparison to you know, transgender people... COOPER: Right. Somebody's -- and let me bring that up because some people...
COOPER: ... have said, "Well, look, if Caitlyn Jenner can decide she's Caitlyn Jenner, why can't this woman decide she is black?"
DAVIS: I am so not here for that conversation. It's not true. If she did struggle with those crayons as an early child, her parents would have seen that just like transparents also often see this mist, this didn't connect...
COOPER: Right. You talk to people that are transgender and they say, this is something they have felt...
DAVIS: That's right.
COOPER: ... from their earliest memories.
DAVIS: And they don't enroll other people and make them lie. They're trying to be their authentic self. The opposite is being authentic is deceiving...
COOPER: So you can't choose -- the notion that you can choose your race is that -- well, we says races in social construct. Why can't we...
BLOW: You need absolutely a social construct, you know, scientifically but I think, you know, we do have to make it demarcation in this gender race conversation, right? So you can perform gender in a lot of different ways. So you could -- perform gender 25 percent female and still claim masculinity.
In America, as we have constructed a race in this country, you cannot perform blackness 25 percent at a time and still claim to be white, right? Because we have this kind of racial -- racious (ph) architecture that says, one drop of blackness makes you black. And the reason that is racists is because the globe cannot be turned inside out.
DAVIS: That's right.
BLOW: You cannot say that one drop of whiteness in my blood makes -- allows me to be white. So, you know, it is starting from a privileged position and moving into the sphere of people who have not enjoyed that privilege...
BLOW: ... in the first place and that I think part of the issue that people having with...
DAVIS: If she was transracial, don't you think some of our ancestor would have chosen to be white, and not die, and not be hung, and not be denied school and not be denied privileges, and not be denied the right to vote. If that were a possibility, it doesn't work the other way around.
BLOW: And I also believe, I just wanted to say this. You know, races like you said, it is can socially constructed. However, the expression of blackness particularly in America is the culture that developed around that social construction. It is a response to oppression, it is the resilience and yet you have not experienced that resilience.
And that resilience is born in the blood and it is transferred, you know, generationally. And you cannot simply say that I could change my appearance and adapt the resilience that the story that my mother told me, my grandmother told me, all of that that has helped me to survive this existence. It doesn't work that way.
COOPER: I mean it's a fascinating conversation, (inaudible) talked about this for an hour because it's just incredible. We'll see. I'd love to talk to her. I know you all would love to talk to her.
DAVIS: I would love to talk to her.
COOPER: It's going to be interesting to hear her perspective whatever in mind is that -- Charles Blow, Michaela Angela Davis, great to have you on.
DAVIS: Thank you. Thank you.
COOPER: Florida Governor Jeb Bush jump into the presidential race today announcing his candidacy in Miami. New details tonight on the family discussions that led to his decision whether his family's name is more likely to be a blessing or a curse in the campaign trail.
COOPER: Today, former Florida Governor Jeb Bush finally made it official, declaring himself a candidate in the 2016 presidential race.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. JEB BUSH, (R) FLORIDA: The presidency should not be passed on from one liberal to the next. So here's what it comes down to. Our country is on a very bad course and the question is, what are we going to do about it? The question for me is, what am I going to do about it? And I have decided. I am a candidate for president of the United States of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, fair to say, very few of anyone were surprise by that announcement, has been quite to build up, Governor Bush is the 11th Republicans who jumped into the race.
And so, they made a point of saying, that hill after wind on his own merits not because of his family name. It will be possible though to set himself apart from his family and they're deep political root. Our political analyst, Gloria Borger digs deeper.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GLORIA BORGER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: What's in the name, plenty (ph). If you're Jeb Bush and you're running for president.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want George Bush. We want Bush. We want Bush.
JEB BUSH JR., SON OF JEB BUSH: After years of or I guess months now of deliberation, Dad decide to change his name Jeb Bush Bushaskie (ph).
BORGER: Jeb Jr. joke about it in an exclusive interview with CNN. But lineage of the serious issue as Bush attempts to renew the family's unusual long-term lease on the White House.
J. BUSH: Everybody knows that I'm a George's boy and Barbara's boy and that's a blessing. And everybody knows I'm W's brother and I can consider that a blessing as well. But I'm also my own person, I've live my own life.
GEORGE BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT US: On my orders --
BORGER: But now he's got to live with his brother's decision. And with the public that's not exactly clamoring for one more Bush it's tricky.
J. BUSH: My brother who I love more than life.
G. BUSH: The United States --
BORGER: Especially since Jeb can't quite bring himself to second guess to decision to invade Iraq.
J. BUSH: Of course anybody would have made different decisions. There's no denying that. Knowing what we know now, what would you have done, I would not engage, I would not have gone into Iraq.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George W. and Jeb and Marvin...
BORGER: It's complicated, says his other brother, Neil.
[21:40:00] The question is, oh this is just another member of the Bush dynasty, right. And that what do you --
NEIL BUSH, FOURTH OF SIX CHILDREN OF FORMER PRESIDENT GEORGE H. W. BUSH: Mom would kill you for using dynasty word but go ahead.
BORGER: Well, go ahead. Well, what's wrong with dynasty word?
N. BUSH: I don't have any problem with it. Jeb will inherit as my mom says or dad says all of his -- their enemies and half of their friends kind of thing. So it's not like it's automatically a benefit to have a famous names.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Happy birthday Mr. President.
G. BUSH: I'm glad my family is all with me here.
BORGER: Especially when you have to prove you're different.
G. BUSH: I think he'd be a great president.
J. BUSH: It can't be about my mom and dad or my brother who I love. I love them all.
BORGER: Actually, Jeb is a bit of a family renegade, trading the Yale tradition for U.T. and Houston Texas for Miami Florida, a state that made him governor.
J. BUSH: I, Jeb Bush...
BORGER: And eventually made his brother president.
ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR : He studied Latin-American studies in college. He lived and worked in Venezuela out of college.
UNKNONW: Ana Navarro is a friend and supporter.
NAVARRO: He's not just bilingual, he is biculture. I won't be able to break him to Spanish with him and maybe tell him some, you know, something that all only a Hispanic would get.
This is a guy who in high school went to do an exchange program in Mexico. That's where he first met Columba.
BORGER: Columba the daughter of a Mexican farmer whom he married 40 years ago.
J. BUSH: I felt madly in love. It was love at first sight. It was a head over heels in love. It was -- I lose 20 pounds in three weeks in love. I couldn't sleep in love. It was a transformative event in my life.
J. BUSH. JR: My mom still only speaks to me in Spanish. Unfortunately, I respond in English. You know, mom moves his country. She -- her English wasn't that great. You know, she really -- I think she probably met her in-laws the first time at the wedding chapel.
BORGER: Wow, that's hard.
Especially hard when your new in-laws are American political royalty, George and Barbara Bush.
J. BUSH JR: Mom hates politics. She's not a huge fan of it which probably makes her the only same person in the family. But she's, you know, she's got a servants hearts.
COLUMBA BUSH, JEB BUSH'S WIFE: Thank you all so very much for being here. J. BUSH JR: You know, so she's always the first lady of Florida and, yes, you know, I know she will be there to support dad 110 percent.
BORGER: How was this decision made inside the family?
J. BUSH JR: This past things given (inaudible) got together in Mexico. We had a kind of keeny (ph) conversation.
BORGER: What made her change her mind?
J. BUSH JR: I mean, I think it's just that of, you know, love for dad, love for the service. You know, she kind of had a famous line and this is something, you know, came out during Thanksgiving, and that allowing dad to potentially go and do this, was like taking away in his (inaudible) decision.
J. BUSH: Thanks for being here.
BORGER: The playing to the based has been hard for Bush. He is considered too soft on immigration and his plan for a common set of education standard had conservative brawling (ph) about big government and calling him out of touch.
BORGER: It seemed a little bit rusty.
NAVARRO: It's not like Jeb has been in a cave make you fire with sticks for the last eight years. He is a man who a very engaged. He loves technology. He loves technological innovation. He's into it. He talks about it a lot.
BORGER: Kind of nerdy?
NAVARRO: He's not nerdy but he is wisy.
J. BUSH: So talk about economic growth?
BORGER: Is there anything about your father that we don't know?
J. BUSH JR.: Well, his favorite movies (inaudible).
J. BUSH: Absolutely ma'am, I love this on your baby. Do you not going to want to watch for?
J. BUSH JR.: Which is terribly embarrassing but, you know, he's horrible gesture, the guys, you know, he has polo shirts that are older than me probably. You know, he's not focus on his looks so that mom takes care of him and not try to, you know, dress him up and make sure he looks I guess presentable. You know, he is a total grinder, he loves to work. That's the way it does.
BORGER: And what he does, as a Bush, is running for president.
J. BUSH JR.: He is going to be running toward his records. He's going to be running toward his accomplishments and also maybe less concern from his failures. But, you know, he's going to try to learn, you know, show people that he is a man and has ambition and use it to problem (inaudible).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Gloria Borger joins us now.
You know, if he does get nomination, I mean, there are going to be a lot of Republicans who is running against, who will say, "Look, if he gets the nomination we lose -- Republicans lose one of their greatest attackers against Hillary Clinton that she's a throwback of the past, that she is just a...
COOPER: You know, yet another Clinton.
BORGER: Right. He's already dealing with that because Republicans are already talking about him as someone of the past and relic. And he is an answer of that and this campaigns answer that is, that he is the most qualified to take on Hillary Clinton, that she's very experienced candidate, that he's a governor as he said today in his speech. He said, you know, I've had proven success as governor of Florida. I have foreign policy experience.
[21:45:00] And I my own man he adds, but he is the only one their campaign says who can take Hillary Clinton on kind of equal footing.
COOPER: Jeb Bush basically though has to win kind of a primary within a primary...
BORGER: He does.
COOPER: ... before he can -- I mean, against other establishment contenders of Chris Christie. I guess from -- who else?
BORGER: Well, you can...
BORGER: I mean, Rubio...
COOPER: ... Against Rubio before being able to even address some of the other challenges.
BORGER: Right. You know, and there are a lot of people who are positioning themselves right now. And they all have a foot in one camp. I mean, you know, Jeb Bush would say that he could appeal to evangelicals. He's very devoted Catholic. For example, he converted to Catholicism. And he would say that he can appeal to conservatives because he was conservative governor. And he is conservative on social issues. And he would also say that he can appeal to moderates because he's moderate on physical issues and foreign policy.
So Christie might say the same thing and Rubio might say the same thing. So I think they're all trying to sort of state their claims, it isn't going to be like this. It's going to be one Evangelical candidate and one moderate candidate. I think they've all realized that they have to build a coalition because after all, they're going to be like 16 candidate and each of them is only get (inaudible).
COOPER: Yeah, fast. And Gloria, thanks very much.
COOPER: Gloria Borger.
Up next, new details about what happen immediately before and after the shooting of 12-year-old Tamir Rice. What a new report released by prosecutors reveals, next.
COOPER: The Cleveland police officers shot and killed 12-year-old Tamir Rice told his partner quote, "He gave me no choice."
Rice, as you know, was playing with the fake gun that look real when the officer open fire killing him last November. Now, we've also learned that Rice was alert and speaking after he was shot. All of this new information coming from a 224-page report on the shooting that came out over the weekend, Martin Savidge reports
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Cleveland police responding to a 911 call come under fire from an unknown gunman.
[21:50:00] Nobody's hit but rumor spread police who killed someone triggering angry protests.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 137 shots, that's what we call it peace (ph).
SAVIDGE: It's the latest side of how the police shooting of Tamir Rice, continues to keep the city on edge.
CHIEF CALVIN WILLIAM, CLEVELAND POLICE: We are in a climate where people, you know, try to find reason to be upset.
SAVIDGE: Saturday, the Cuyahoga County Prosecutor released the investigation in the Rice's death. The report says, none of the witnesses interviewed hurtfully shall commend to Rice (inaudible) of shooting him contradicting police accounts.
DEPUTY CHIEF ED TOMBA, CLEVELAND POLICE: The officers ordered him to stop and show his hands, and he wended to his waistband and pulled out the weapon.
SAVIDGE: That weapon turned out to be a pillet gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's trying to fire on us (ph) us without the youth center or whatever.
SAVIDGE: A 911 caller said Rice's gun was probably fake but the information was never relayed to the responding officers. What the investigators ask the veteran's dispatcher why not the report says, "She refused for her attorney to answer".
The most compiling details come from an FBI agent arriving minutes after the shooting. He shot the two officers appeared to be in shellshock saying they wanted to do something but they didn't know what to do. The officer had no first aid training and no first aid kit using only a pair of rubber gloves. That FBI agent also a paramedic desperately worked on Rice.
"I spoke to him. I told him I was paramedic and I was here to help him". He says Rice actually turned his head and looked at me and acknowledge, a short time later the agent said as the 12-year-old life was slipping away, Rice reached for the agent's hand.
SAVIDGE: And you are wondering when is this case going to go to some kind of grand jury. And the answer is, probably not for a while yet. The prosecutor says they're still more in needs to investigate, still more to have to go over on this report on the grand jury even when they get the case, they have questions they could trigger even more investigation. Maybe in a month or two, some say not 'til fall.
COOPER: Wow. Martin Savidge, I appreciate the update.
Up next, two teenagers attacked by sharks less than 90 minutes far of the same North Carolina beach. Was it the same shark and why wasn't the beach closed after the first attack? We'll talk to an expert next.
COOPER: Shark attacks in North Carolina along the same beach barely 90 minutes apart have made a lot of people nervous. The victims, two teenagers, survived but each lost part of an arm. One of the victims also suffered bites on her leg.
Local officials believed the same shark attacked both the teenagers.
Now, we've all heard the statistics, shark attacks are incredibly rare and that's very true. So what should we make of two attacks so close together?
Joining me is George Burgess, Director of the program for shark research at University of Florida and Curator of the International Shark Attack File.
George, the fact that these attacks took place relatively close to each other both in terms of time and distance, is it possible you think it was the same shark?
GEORGE BURGESS, UNIVERSITY OF FLODIRA SHARK RESEARCH PROGRAM: It could very well be one shark, Anderson. We won't know for sure probably ever. But after examining the wounds, we'll probably get a pretty idea whether it was about the same size shark involved in both, of course getting the specie's identity is going to be more difficult.
COOPER: Based on the severity of the entries, do you have a sense of what kind of shark it could have been? BURGESS: Well, based on size and location and, of course, the type of injuries, the most likely candidates are bull and tiger sharks both of which get to larger sizes and are more aggressive. My personal guess would be that a bull shark is most likely.
COOPER: The time of day of the attacks, does that play into it all, I mean, is there a time of day where you see shark attacks more likely?
BURGESS: Generally between dusk and dawn of course are the times when most sharks are most active at feeding. It does seem that late in the afternoon even before it gets to dusk, are times where some of this larger shark particularly bull seem to be most active.
COOPER: Given the global slaughter of sharks what we have, you know, been witnessing now over the last many years. I do think it's important to just reemphasize how rare these kind of attacks really are.
BURGESS: That's absolutely true. The ratio between shark killing men and men killing shark is about 10 million to 1 in any given year, so. Last year there were three fatalities worldwide attacks to sharks.
COOPER: And as far as I understand, and correct me of I'm wrong here. Most of the attacks that occur and even the fatalities that occur, it's not the shark eating somebody whole, it may be more curiosity of the shark and the way they sort of satisfy their curiosity is they take a bite kind of get a sense of what the thing is and then they move off but the person tends to bleed out, they're not able to get help in time is that right?
BURGESS: Well, that's certainly is true with animals such as white sharks which you go with. But for other animals, it's probably simply mistaken identity situations in which they interpret the splash associated with the human foot or a hand on the water is being the movements of a normal prey and then they grab the splash only to find a human in their mouth.
COOPER: I used to be completely freaked out about sharks until I actually dove with great whites and one of the things I -- an expert in South Africa said to me which has sort of changed the way I think about interactions with shark is that most of us, and tell me if you agree with this, that most people have had a shark interaction they just don't know it. Most people have probably been an area where there has been a shark and because the shark, you know, most sharks don't attack people. The shark may have seen you but you probably didn't see the shark.
BURGESS: That's absolutely true. Anybody who's been in the water very much has been within five or six feet of a shark at some time in their life.
COOPER: Within five or six feet, really.
BURGESS: Yes, that's right.
COOPER: Well that, I mean, it certainly should -- I hope that doesn't freak people out. I hope that actually comforts people to know they've been that close to a shark and nothing has happened.
BURGESS: Yes. If sharks wanted to attack humans every time they saw one, we'd be doing this interview thousands of times.
COOPER: Well, George, I'm glad to talk to you. I'm glad that we don't talk thousands of times because it is so rare and I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you.
BURGESS: Good to be with you.
COOPER: Well, that does it for us tonight. Thanks for joining us. CNN Tonight, starts now.