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Prisoners Planned To Kill Husband; Two Shark Attacks; Rachel Dolezal Resigns; Death After Rikers. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired June 15, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:00:11] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me here.

Two violent prison inmates could be anywhere. There are now at least 800 law enforcement officers scouring the woods, peering into cars, popping open trunks. But nearly 10 days and 100 of tips later, they seem to be no closer to capturing convicted killers Richard Matt and David Sweat. Right now, some 900 leads are active with more and more coming in each and every hour. They range from sightings in Vermont, to just a mile from the prison, to as far flung as Mexico. Even the governor of New York suggesting this trail may be going cold.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D), NEW YORK: We don't know if they are still in the immediate area or if they are in Mexico by now, right. Enough time has transpired. But we're following up every lead the best we can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Police hoping that this woman helped get them out of prison, just maybe she has some information that could help catch them. Joyce Mitchell, the prison tailor, shackled here this morning, she faced charges for her alleged involvement in what we are now hearing was a thoroughly rehearsed prison break.

Joining me now, Brendan Lyons, "Times-Union" reporter.

Brendan, welcome back.

You know, we have a lot of scoop. You have a lot of scoops. Let's begin with your reporting here on what Joyce Mitchell allegedly told investigators on more of what she and these two killers planned involving perhaps her husband.

BRENDAN LYONS, "TIMES-UNION" REPORTER: That's right. Her - a law enforcement official told us on Saturday that during two lengthy interviews with state police investigators that Miss Mitchell had apparently outlined discussions that she had with one or more of these inmates about a possible plot to kill her husband. You know, we were stunned by this and did everything we could to verify because there's so many investigators now saturating that area and there's a lot of information flying around. But the source told us that they're pretty certain that these discussions did take place. It's not unprecedented for Mr. Matt - you remember he had a case in the early 1990s where another inmate in western New York had sought to solicit him to kill family members when - if he bailed him out of prison.

BALDWIN: So it just adds a layer to this as we're hearing, of course, she had a quote/unquote "change of heart," maybe that involved her husband here and his life as well.

Also, Brendan, we know that, hearing a little bit more about how - specifics of the plan, right? So she was to meet them, post escape, what, at a nearby power plant and then they would drive where specifically?

LYONS: Well, that's - yes, near a power plant, which is not far from the prison. So each day you're seeing the district attorney, Andrew Wylie, give a little more detail about the plot as it unfolded. And it's not clear from what he released the other day - he mentioned nothing about a, you know, a possible murder plot. But he also said that it was a seven-hour drive to get to this destination.

BALDWIN: Uh-huh.

LYONS: But he said that they didn't - they didn't tell Joyce Mitchell where the destination was either. It could be that was in Vermont. If you have to drive around Lake Champlain, you could spend that much time getting to Vermont even though as the crow flies it's much closer. But it could have also been, you know, west, past Buffalo, where Mr. Matt's from or, you know, who knows.

BALDWIN: OK.

LYONS: It's unclear where Joyce Mitchell, you know, really knew the true intent of these individuals either. Had she picked them up, of course, you know, there's been a lot of speculation about whether she may have been in danger as well.

BALDWIN: Right. She might have saved her own life by having this change of heart.

LYONS: Certainly.

BALDWIN: And then, as far as - as we talk about geography, you know, as I was reading about potential leads and you mentioned Vermont or maybe Buffalo or - I mean, to hear the governor of New York - and I don't know how serious he was in mentioning, you know, listen, these two could be in Mexico by now. I know one of them has, you know, ties to Mexico. Do you even know if there are investigators in Mexico looking for them potentially?

LYONS: I would think that they've got - with the U.S. marshals at their disposal and the FBI that they are certainly have heightened alerts down in the southwest and anywhere they might be. You know, keep in mind, it's not unusual historically for - in a manhunt like this, for the state police to be concentrated in an area like they have been for so many days only to find out later that the escapee they're looking for had been long gone. You know, it's not unprecedented for them to miss. I think they're going with this search in that area still because they have no information that they got out. So they have to focus. But our reporter up there is also telling us that she sees a diminished police presence today.

[14:05:16] BALDWIN: Really?

LYONS: You know, fewer - fewer streets blocked off and less officers on certain streets. So it could be that they're at the stage where they're going to start winding down this saturation.

BALDWIN: I cannot believe they have not caught them yet. We also learned, just quickly, as far as a price tag on this search each and every day, $1 million.

Brendan Lyons, thank you so much, with the "Times-Union."

LYONS: You bet.

BALDWIN: Always appreciate talking to you. Great reporting on this one.

Meantime, we are now hearing those frantic 911 calls from this beach in North Carolina as not just one, two teenagers were attacked by a shark over the weekend. These two teenagers include a 13-year-old girl and a 16-year-old boy, maimed on the very same beach in separate attacks. And you can hear the fear and the anguish in the 911 call.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DISPATCHER: County 911, what's your emergency?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh, there's another one! Another one!

DISPATCHER: Hello?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's another - someone's been bit by a shark. (INAUDIBLE).

DISPATCHER: OK. Where are you at?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) Oak Island.

DISPATCHER: OK. Ma'am, I need for you to calm down, I'm having a hard time hearing you. What access are you near?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're at 55th Street.

DISPATCHER: 55th?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma'am. His arm is gone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Oh, that just sent shivers up my spine. We don't have the names of the victims, by the way, but here's what we do know. These two attacks were fewer than 90 minutes apart. Both attacks happened near a popular fishing pier. These two young victims were both in waist-deep water just about 20 yards off the shore. Both had an arm amputated. Let me bring in Dr. Robert Hueter. He is the director of shark

research at the Mote Marine Laboratory there in Sarasota, Florida.

So, Robert, thank you so much for being with me. And I see you brought your props, which we can get to here in just a second. But when you first heard that you - that you have these two attacks within 90 minutes of one another in this kind of water in North Carolina, was that a shock to you?

ROBERT HUETER, DIRECTOR OF SHARK RESEARCH, MOTE MARINE LABORATORY: Well, I would say it's surprising. I mean this sort of thing is highly unusual for attacks to occur like this so close together in time and space. But we've got to not jump into the conclusion that we're talking about one shark, sort of the rogue shark that was famous in "Jaws." That - there's really no scientific evidence that that sort of thing exists. So this may have well been two totally disconnected incidents of two different sharks on these two unfortunate victims.

BALDWIN: Show me - what did you bring?

HUETER: Yes.

BALDWIN: What do you want to show me?

HUETER: Well, I wanted to make the point that in a lot of cases, bites on sharks on people in the U.S. are by fairly small sharks, something about this size, maybe a little bit bigger, a black tip shark like this.

BALDWIN: OK.

HUETER: If, in fact, this was a case where the limbs were cut through, which it sounds like, but we're not sure yet, then we may be talking about a larger shark, something like a bull shark or a tiger shark. And this is - this is the jaw from a bull shark, about 8 feet long, 8 1/2 feet long. And this is the jaw from a tiger shark, about 10 feet long. So these are very different sized animals.

We really talk a lot about not using the attack - the - this word attack too often because so many cases in the U.S. are little shark bites. But clearly in this case this was - this was a much more serious thing and my heart goes out to the victims of these incidents.

BALDWIN: Absolutely. I mean waist-deep water, 20 yards offshore. Let me play - this is the local fire chief.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF CHRIS ANSEIMO, OAK ISLAND, NORTH CAROLINA, FIRE & RESCUE: There's no way that we're going to stop people from going into the water. If they - if they want to go in the water, they're going to. I swim in the water. I would swim in the water today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I don't know if I would swim in the water today. Robert, would you swim in the water? I mean do you think - the beaches are open, by the way. Should they be shut down?

HUETER: Yes. Well, I would say that the local people know best. You know the fact is that the sparks have been there all along. They've been there for millions of years. The fact that this - these incident have happened doesn't really mean that the risk has necessarily gone up. But I would definitely be vigilant. I would - I would caution people. I'd be careful. And I would - I would wait a while before letting people just sort of do their normal thing at those beaches up there.

BALDWIN: You know, we talk a lot - I feel like there's a lot of - there have been attacks in the past, Massachusetts, Cape Cod, but this notion that they're off of - not too far from Wilmington, take note, I suppose. But, again, the beach is open.

Dr. Robert Hueter, thank you so much. Definitely feel for those two teenagers there.

HUETER: You're welcome.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, the NAACP leader accused of faking her race has just stepped down. Hear her explanation and what she's actually not mentioning in that letter.

[14:10:09] Also, he is one of America's most wanted terrorists and now questions about whether a U.S. raid hit its target.

And an emotional, chilling and infuriating story. This innocent young man, sent to one of the nation's most notorious jails, locked up for three years, two of those in solitary. He never got a trial. The case was dismissed. He is now dead. He took his own life. An emotional interview with two of his brothers and why this could possibly happen. Do not miss that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

[14:14:55] The NAACP leader accused of faking her race says she will never stop fighting for human rights, but she has stop fighting for her job. Rachel Dolezal just announced she will be leaving her post as president of the NAACP there in Spokane. She announced that via a letter on their FaceBook page. Dolezal came under fire after her parents came forth saying Dolezal is white. That's a piece of all of this.

In her lengthy post, Dolezal says the controversy has become a distraction. Let me quote part of this. "And yet the dialogue has unexpectedly shifted internationally to my personal identity in the context of defining race and ethnicity."

So, joining me right now I have filmmaker and educator Ali Michael, who recently wrote about once, quote, "disliking her whiteness," and also here is the author of this opinion piece in "The Washington Piece," "What Rachel Dolezal doesn't understand, being black is about more than just how you look." Osamuda James is a professor at the University of Miami Law School.

So, ladies, wonderful to have you both on here, to have both of these voices. But I have to begin with this. Rachel Dolezal's, you know, resignation letter. And, Osamuda, first to you because, you know, yes, it addresses what she has accomplished for her - a community and a cause, but I think what really strikes me is so much of what it doesn't say because nothing in here addresses her race, nothing in here addresses why she did what she did. Nothing in here says I'm sorry. What was your take?

PROF. OSAMUDA JAMES, UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI LAW SCHOOL: Yes, I thought that the tone of the piece, the resignation letter, was a little bit odd. It does not acknowledge that maybe there was a fraud that was perpetrated. That fraud might be harmful or hurtful to the people who were witness to it. And to the extent that it really talks about her race as this personal thing, she doesn't acknowledge that race actually does operate in a very public space. It's a social construct and so it is a public thing. We perceive it, we act upon it and people's lives are sometimes in danger as a result of it. And so I think it would have been ideal if she had acknowledged that in the letter.

BALDWIN: Ali, I want to dig right into this with you because obviously I read your blog and you wrote about - you call it your Rachel Dolezal phase in your early 20s, shaving your head, wearing head wraps. Why did you do that?

ALI MICHAEL, FILMMAKER & EDUCATOR: Well, that was a very short time in my - in the period of my history, but I - I can relate to this feeling of not wanting to be white. Feeling like there are no positive ways to be white. And once you've learned the history of racism in our country, which is so dire and serious and really casts white people so badly, you start to feel like, I don't want to - I don't want to be white. It doesn't feel like there's a positive way to be white.

And I think that's where that - that urge was coming from for me. And to be honest, it only lasted a couple hours, maybe a day or two. It wasn't a long period in my life. And yet I relate to her and I want to just name that - that feeling that like maybe it feels like white - there is no place for white people in the racial justice movement.

And I think that's the sad thing about her letter, that she doesn't - she doesn't own her whiteness. And it continues to perpetuate this idea that if you're white you can't work for racial justice. And I think a big learning for me has been trying not to be white is not what racial justice is about. Feeling guilty about being white is also not what it's about. It's about working towards living in healthy multiracial community. And in order to do that, we have to be who we are and we have to be responsible to who we are. So it's important for me to be able to name and own my whiteness, just as it's important for Rachel Dolezal to do and to recognize that I can also work for racial justice but not unless I'm aware of my own racial identify and recognize that maybe -

BALDWIN: And I think you make -

MICHAEL: Go ahead.

BALDWIN: No, I just - I think you make great points and I want to come back to you on sort of owning whiteness. But, I mean, if only we could talk to Rachel Dolezal herself because I would like to know if this is - if this is more about - more about identifying with being black or less about not wanting to be white. And I honestly - because I haven't been able to talk to her, I honestly don't know what the answer to that question is.

But, Osamuda, here's my follow-up because in reading your opinion piece, and I've seen other editorials echoing your thesis, which is essentially saying, you know, listen, the way in which she portrays her blackness is really more a stereotype. That was -

JAMES: Yes.

BALDWIN: Can you explain your point?

JAMES: I do. You know, I think she tried to - she tried to choose the most stereotypical or the images of black femaleness or womanhood that we most automatically associate with black women.

BALDWIN: Be specific. What do you mean?

JAMES: I thought her hair. I thought - you know, so then she tanned her skin color. I saw pictures where there was a lot of pouting to make her lips look fuller. Sometimes clothing. Even the way in which she styled her hair. All of those were things that, yes, you know, those are associated with images of black women, but I felt like she used that very limited notion to claim - to maybe make her claim to black as more authentic. But blackness is a much wider spectrum. It's not just your hair or your makeup or your clothes. And, you know, sometimes I thought to myself, I might have been less offended if she had just been herself and then said that there was a claim to blackness there because in the black community, there are people that look, right, that might pass for white but still have claim to the black community and there's nothing wrong with that. But she sort of went to the images that we automatically always assume are about blackness. They're very limited. She claimed those. And, to me, this was about making her claim more authentic. And that has nothing to do with social justice, right, or, you know, advancing inequality.

[14:20:29] BALDWIN: This story has so totally - I don't know if it's evoked so many emotions and so many people. I mean anywhere I went this weekend, this was all people wanted to talk about. I sat and I wondered and I actually read a colleague's piece on cnn.com, Lisa Resperse France (ph). And this is the lead line of her piece. She's - she's an African-American woman and she writes this. "In this day and age, who in the world willingly wants to be black? I jokingly said that to my husband when news about Rachel Dolezal broke." I mean is this, Osamuda, just staying with you, is this part of the reason why it's resonated with so many stories about race making headlines recently? I mean what do you - what do you make about her point?

JAMES: So, you know, I think - so she said it as a joke and I think that's right because I certainly understand why anyone would want to be black, right? Black people have a claim to an amazing history and legacy in this country and there are things she wanted to do, she could access that identity.

But I actually think the reason why it's gotten so much attention, especially from people of color, is because, in the context of a black lives matter movement, identity matters. The stakes are very high. And so it's difficult when people feel as if they're being killed for their racial identity, for a white woman to then pick up that identity and put it on, like a costume, and then maybe take it off later if it became too heavy, that's a really tough pill to swallow.

BALDWIN: But it's not a costume. It's so not a costume.

JAMES: Well, we are definitely - black women are definitely not costumes.

BALDWIN: No. I mean, and, Ali, just - I'm hearing you agree and nod. Just final - final thoughts from you on all of this.

MICHAEL: Well, I - you know, as a white person who's trying to live an anti-racist life, I feel like the first step for me is owning my whiteness and owning my responsibility in racialized problems. It's also about looking at people like Rachel Dolezal and saying, well, how am I also her, or George Zimmerman? How am I like George Zimmerman? How do I have fear of black men that endangers them and recognizing that, you know, this racism that really circulates in our society is not something that I'm immune from once I decide I want to live an anti-racist life. It's something I have to work against every day. And so recognizing that being white has meaning and it may not have meaning for people - for lots of people, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't have meaning in general and for -

JAMES: And Rachel -

MICHAEL: So for me to be able to see that and own that and work from there.

BALDWIN: I've got to go but I -

JAMES: I just want -

BALDWIN: I've got to go.

JAMES: I just want to know that Rachel -

BALDWIN: Quickly.

JAMES: As a white woman, really could have done that work in white communities. She didn't have to put on a farce to do that very important work and to help people understand that message.

BALDWIN: It's a great point. It's a great point. I have a feeling we have not heard the last from her. Ali Michael and Osamuda James, ladies, smart conversation, I really appreciate it, here on CNN.

JAMES: Thank you for having us. BALDWIN: You got it.

MICHAEL: Thanks.

BALDWIN: Today, thousands of schools across South Korea warning students and teachers to wash their hands and check their temperatures as they finally reopen after that deadly MERS outbreak. A sixteenth person has died from the virus. Five thousand people remain in quarantine, but health officials do say they believe the outbreak is slowing.

Next, the suicide of a young man who spent years at Riker's Island in New York in solitary confinement all because his parents could not afford bail, only to have those charges dismissed. You have to hear his story. His two brothers and attorney join me after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:27:52] BALDWIN: This next story will infuriate you, it will sadden you, it will make you ask questions, it will make all of us question what happens behind bars in our criminal justice system. Kalief Browder took his own life two weekends ago at his mother's home in the Bronx. He was only 22 years old. As a teen, he was sent to Rikers, one of the nation's most notorious jails. He was locked up for three years, two of those in solitary confinement. He was accused of stealing a backpack but he never even got a trial because his charges were eventually dropped. and that's not all. As CNN's Brian Todd reports, his time at Rikers Island included suffered at the hands of other inmates and even a guard.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Chaos inside New York's Rikers Island prison. Gang members assault detainee Kalief Browder, a 17-year-old who never should have been there. This disturbing security camera footage from 2010 shows the gang beating Browder, being held back, then barging into an isolation cell and beating him again. Corrections officers were powerless.

TODD (on camera): I mean this seems like "Lord of the Flies." What's going on here?

ARNETT GASTON, FORMER COMMANDING OFFICER, RIKERS ISLAND: Utter confusion. There is - there is obviously a lack of control. They do not have the capacity, and this is not to demean the officers, they are clearly outnumbered and they do not have the physical capacity to totally protect the inmate.

TODD (voice-over): This video was obtained by "The New Yorker" magazine, which first reported Kalief Browder's story. Two years after the gang beating, his video shows Browder being slammed to the ground, his head smashed, this time by a corrections officer, after Browder appears to say something to him.

GASTON: Verbal assaults don't count. If we in corrections responded to every verbal statement that was made that was derogatory in nature, we would be fighting every minute of every hour. That is commonplace. It is part of the culture.

TODD: Browder was sent to Rikers for allegedly stealing a backpack in the Bronx. He always maintained his innocence but was kept in prison for three years without a trial, two of those years in solitary confinement. He was ultimately released. The charges, dropped.

[14:30:02] KALIEF BROWDER (ph): No apology. No nothing. They just said, oh, case dismissed, don't worry about nothing. Like, what do you mean, don't worry about nothing? You guys just took over three years of my life. I didn't get to go to prom, graduation, nothing.