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Agent Attacked in ISIS Investigation; Attracted to Killers; Dolezal Compared to Jenner; 10-Year-Old Stumps for Trump. Aired 2- 2:30p ET

Aired June 17, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, here we go. Top of the hour. Breaking news here on CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Here's -- here's what we're learning. We are getting word of an attempted stabbing during a raid in an ISIS related investigation. Let's go straight to our justice correspondent Evan Perez who's got some news on all of this.

Tell me what exactly happened in this Staten Island home.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Brooke, this is what we know at this hour. An alleged ISIS supporter is under arrest in New York allegedly after he attacked an FBI agent with a knife. Now, terrorism investigators were doing a search of a home in Staten Island earlier today and that's when allegedly this man tried to attack an agent. Now, there were no serious injuries in this incident, but it is related to another arrest that occurred on Saturday.

If you recall yesterday we -- the FBI announced that they had arrested a suspect who was planning to build bombs and detonate bombs in the New York metropolitan area. And that suspect was arrested after he and someone else that he was with tried to attack agents who were following them. So that's what we know at this hour. We know that the suspect arrested today is due in court any time.

BALDWIN: OK. So we have the news today with this man in Staten Island that, as you point out, is connected to the man from Queens. Then you also have recently the new nugget coming out about what had happened a while back in Garland, Texas, and how one of those individuals apparently had a plan to target a Super Bowl. I mean I feel like we're hearing about this arrests, Evan, more and more so recently. Is that because, you know, the feds are really digging down on this or are there more instances?

PEREZ: Well, it's all of the above, actually. It's all -- everything that you just said is exactly what is driving this. This is certainly, according to law enforcement officials, summer in which they have seeing increased activity, increased threats, and that means they have increased the aggressive tactics that they're using. They're doing more 24/7 monitoring of these suspects, Brooke. They are -- they're following them more closely. And, frankly, that's what's causing some of these suspects to turn and try to attack law enforcement. That's what we saw in Boston recently --

BALDWIN: Right.

PEREZ: And right -- that's what we saw this weekend in New York, Brooke.

BALDWIN: That's right. That's right.

Evan Perez, thank you so much. As soon as you get more, we'll bring you back.

PEREZ: Absolutely.

BALDWIN: We'll stay on this, of course, in the next two hours.

Meantime, more than 1,400 leads and not a single one of them leading police to these two convicted killers. So, police say it is time now to expand the search for David Sweat and Richard Matt.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAJ. CHARLES GUESS, NEW YORK STATE POLICE: Today the search for escaped inmates Richard Matt and David Sweat will expand and shift to other areas surrounding Dannemora. Personnel are being redeployed to other areas based on information gathered during the investigation. People in the region should expect to see law enforcement in their community as the search expands.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: As the clues seem to dry up, their biggest asset as of right now is sitting in a jail cell. Aside from investigators here, the seamstress from this maximum security prison, Joyce Mitchell, who was accused of helping to spring these sociopaths from prison, has just had one visitor, her husband, Lyle Mitchell, the man she apparently planned to have killed. The prosecutor confirming just a short time ago that she arranged a murder for hire plot with these two inmates.

But, here's the question. Was her husband innocent throughout this whole thing? That's what's unclear at this point in time. A source telling CNN that Joyce Mitchell had actually told her husband about the inmates' escape plan and their plot to kill him. But we are also learning from the source that her apparent confession stopped there and that he never knew about her personal relationships with both men.

One of the other big questions is now, how a wife, how a mother gets into a relationship with not just one but two convicted killers, according to a source. And at least one of them was an alleged sexual relationship. That was with Richard Matt, a sociopathic killer who tortured and dismembered his boss.

But this bizarre phenomena is not unique. It's actually called hybristophilia. It is the subject of this disturbing documentary "Serial Killer Groupies: A Love Story." Here's a peek.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ON SCREEN TEXT: My boyfriend is on death row for raping, torturing and murdering women.

I can't wait to see him (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): According to a recent FBI study, there have been approximately 400 serial killers in the United States, and they've murdered nearly 4,000 victims. Once they're caught, they become America's newest celebrities. They are featured on magazine covers, movies are made about their lives and books are written.

Serial killers become household names, achieving rock star levels of fame and notoriety. And just like rock stars, they have thousands of female fans.

[14:05:05] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In order to understand the allure, the appeal of a serial killer, you have to understand where these women are coming from.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's talk about that. Joy Krause, that was her voice, she's the director of that documentary.

So, Joy, welcome.

And, you know, listen, I know that that was the open of your doc that was talking about serial killers, but let's just say killers in general for the sake of conversation here.

JOY KRAUSE, DIRECTOR, "SERIAL KILLER GROUPIES: A LOVE STORY": Sure.

BALDWIN: Why would someone ever be attracted to a killer?

KRAUSE: Well, there are many reasons. Some people like the fame. They -- you know, if you have a letter from Charles Manson, suddenly you're the life of the party. Others like the closeness with danger. And you mentioned hybristophilia and the definition of that is getting sexual arousal and excitement by being around danger or dangerous people and dangerous situations.

BALDWIN: That is an actual thing. That is a scientific term.

KRAUSE: Yes, absolutely. And it's more common than I realized when I became --began this work a few years ago. I had no idea how popular especially serial killers are. And if you look at how popular this story is now about these two escaped convicts, it has captured the nation's attention. Suddenly these two killers are like cultural heroes and everybody is following this story. It's like, you know, D.B. Coopers in the convict world suddenly. It's very popular. They're popular. And it wouldn't surprise me if they have fan clubs.

BALDWIN: I mean -- I mean I would -- I mean I guess to those people maybe they're heroes. Maybe they were heroes, you know, according to Joyce Mitchell. And I hear you on the, you know, being pen pals with Charles Manson and maybe in some circles that's seen as rock star status, but this is different, Joy, and this is -- this is a situation in which you have these two killers working in the tailor shop with this woman. So it's not like it was -- they were strangers. I mean this is all part of a --

KRAUSE: Right.

BALDWIN: It's almost like an odd community in this prison and I'm wondering if you're Joyce Mitchell here, would you sort of forgive, forget their past or is that part of the allure?

KRAUSE: Well, you -- allure is a very good word and these types of people, these sociopaths and psychopaths develop very manipulative techniques. They hone manipulation to a fine skill.

BALDWIN: How?

KRAUSE: And they will -- well, they read a person as a target, for instance. Joyce Mitchell became somebody that they needed. And they would study what she needed. And maybe in her case it was attention. Maybe it was to be told that she was appreciated. You know, you -- you can see where he -- this man, for instance, Richard Stamp would --

BALDWIN: Sweat.

KRAUSE: Sweat would say, you know, has anybody told you how pretty your eyes are? Oh, nobody's listened to me ever the way you listen to me. Or, if I had met you before --

BALDWIN: And she doesn't have that teeny tiny voice in her head thinking -- she doesn't' have that teeny tiny voice saying, wait a second, this guy dismembered his boss' body, chunked one half of it in a river, the head in a dumpster, but still, that's -- that's really lovely that he thinks I'm lovely?

KRAUSE: It's so bizarre how people can compartmentalize things. And whatever she needed to hear, he practiced giving her that. And a relationship formed. And as you said, it's a very contained society and environment. So, you know, most of us spend more time at work than we do with our families. So here she was all day and, you know, I can see how she would wait for his visit to hear what she needed to hear, to feel appreciated and eventually to offer to help or to be manipulated into helping. You know, suddenly he's a friend. Suddenly he's a lover. Suddenly she's excited by all of this stuff.

BALDWIN: And in a sense it's -- right, and in a sense it's like a workplace romance --

KRAUSE: Yes, absolutely.

BALDWIN: And all the while her husband is working at the same place.

KRAUSE: Yes.

BALDWIN: Joy Krause, it's fascinating. Thank you so much.

KRAUSE: Thank you.

BALDWIN: If you want to watch Joy's documentary, "Serial Killer Groupies: A Love Story."

Thank you.

Coming up next, we are talking about Rachel Dolezal. She says she can identify with Caitlyn Jenner. But my next guest is upset with that. Transgender and transracial people are in the same conversation. We're going to explore that and why she says it shouldn't be.

[14:10:09] Plus, Trump on the stump. A 10-year-old kid introduces The Donald to Iowa voters. He joins me live to tell us why he is such a fan. And -- look at those glasses.

And the teen attacked by a shark, losing his arm, is now speaking out about what happened. All of this as experts are just ripping officials who say they will kill sharks who get too close.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: She may have stepped down from her post, but Rachel Dolezal is not backing down about her race. In her latest interview with NBC News, the former NAACP chapter president said she, quote, "is definitely not white," despite the fact that her white parents have presented the pictures and birth certificate to prove that she is. Now Rachel Dolezal has put her mom and dad into question.

[14:15:04] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RACHEL DOLEZAL, FORMER NAACP LEADER: When somebody's asked, are you black, which I actually don't get asked very often, until recently, since a few days ago, then I say, yes, I do -- I am black. I know who raised me. I haven't had a DNA test. There's been no biological proof that Larry and Ruthanne are my biological parents, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You doubt whether those -- Ruthanne and Larry, who say they are your parents, you doubt whether they're your parents?

DOLEZAL: I have -- I don't -- I'm just saying, I can't prove that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's a birth certificate that has your name on it and their names on it. Why would you doubt something so fundamental?

DOLEZAL: I'm not say -- saying that -- that I can't prove they're not, but I don't know that I can actually prove they are. I mean a birth certificate is issued a month and a half after I'm born. Well, I definitely am not white. I -- nothing about being white describes who I am. So, you know, what's the word for it? You know what I mean? The closest thing that I can come to is if you're black or white, I'm black.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Dolezal was also asked if she considered her situation to be like that of a transgender person with a physical body that doesn't match what one feels inside. Dolezal replied that she had just read about Caitlyn Jenner, a transgender woman who used to be Bruce Jenner, and here was her response

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOLEZAL: And I cried. I cried. Because I resonated with some of the themes of isolation, of being misunderstood, especially in this very high pressure, high risk (INAUDIBLE) pressured stress, even borderline attacked experience.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I want to talk about all of this with Meredith Talusan, who is a transgender writer and advocate.

So, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it.

MEREDITH TALUSAN, TRANSGENDER WRITER AND ADVOCATE: Thank you.

BALDWIN: I mean you just saw her getting -- looked to me kind of emotional, right --

TALUSAN: Yes, absolutely.

BALDWIN: Talking about the -- and there have been many a parallel. I've had people come on my show saying, you know, yes, the notion that one could identify, as she does, with being a black woman she says like Bruce Jenner, you know, identifying more as female. But you say that comparison what, is false, isn't fair?

TALUSAN: I don't think that it holds a lot of water. And actually I wrote my article in "The Guardian" even before she was talking about the fact that she identified as black from a very early age and that she used the brown crayon, et cetera, et cetera. BALDWIN: Instead of the peach, right.

TALUSAN: And I'm actually coming out with a piece on Buzzfeed tonight that talks about the fact that even with all of that being the case, I do think that there are really, really important, significant differences between blackness and transgender.

BALDWIN: Such as?

TALUSAN: One of them, the biggest thing is the fact that -- is the fact that when we transition, I'm transgender myself, we lose all of this privilege, right, like that all of a sudden when I identify as a woman, people would say, you know, people -- and I would make arguments, for instance, that people would be much more likely to dismiss them. Whereas when we look at Rachel Dolezal, we're still looking at a person who is light skinned, we're still looking at these qualities, we're still looking at her blue eyes, which are very much coded (ph) for this type of innocence. You know, there's this whole entire package of race that she can't just let go just because and decide that all of a sudden she's black.

BALDWIN: I've had people say to me, Brooke, it is -- just because she identifies as black and she changes her hair and appears to darken her skin, she has not felt and grown up knowing what it feels like to be discriminated against as an African-American woman. If you flip that around, and I'm just using the Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner as an example --

TALUSAN: Sure.

BALDWIN: You know, he transitions to a woman. But I don't see as many people -- women out there, for example, saying, hang on a second, he hasn't had a lifetime of having to deal with looking over your shoulder at night when you're walking home alone.

TALUSAN: Yes.

BALDWIN: All issues that are associated with women.

TALUSAN: Yes.

BALDWIN: Why is there such a difference?

TALUSAN: I mean I think there have been people who -- you know, there was a really big op-ed in "The New York Times" last week, Eleanor Burkett (ph) made those, you know, made those assumptions and accusations and I think that --

BALDWIN: The voices aren't as low, perhaps.

TALUSAN: Yes. But I think like one of the major difference -- another really important difference is the fact that transitioning at -- transitioning from male to female takes as huge amount of commitment, right? Like it's -- there are all of these legal hurdles, there are all of these physical hurdles, whereas in Rachel Dolezal's case, all she needed to do was tan and get a weave and check a different box. And other people even made those racial assumptions for her and she didn't correct them. And so there's this wave --

BALDWIN: What about the notion of deception? Just, final question.

TALUSAN: Yes. Sure.

BALDWIN: Right, because you -- you wrote about that.

TALUSAN: Yes.

BALDWIN: Because, listen, she never -- she never has said I lied, right?

[14:20:02] TALUSAN: Yes.

BALDWIN: But a lot of people take issue with that. But -- but in a sense, as a man, would you feel like you deceived family, yourself, not maybe living your truth as a woman?

TALUSAN: Sure. I mean there were times when -- you know, there was a period of time when I was undisclosed as a transgender person and people assumed that I was born female and I allowed them to assume that. And that's kind of similar to the way that gay people, for instance, are in the closet and they could pretend to be straight. And so there's this way that she's asking us to empathize with her. You know, she talks about it being a matter of survival. But I think the really, really big difference is that -- that in a lot

of ways, like she continues to be really advantaged when she identifies as black, right, with her light skin, with all of the social and legal advantages and legal protections of being black infers. And I think that it really hurts the black community, you know, for that particular trend to happen, you know, if she claims that, you know, she needs to be subject to affirmative action laws, for instance.

BALDWIN: Right. Right. No, it gets quite complicated and sticky.

TALUSAN: Yes.

BALDWIN: And I really appreciate it. We've just talked so much around it and I just -- it's a pleasure to talk to you about it. So I really appreciate it.

TALUSAN: Yes. Yes. No, it's really my pleasure.

BALDWIN: Yes. Meredith Talusan, thank you so much.

Coming up next here on CNN, Donald Trump, he has officially jumped into the ring for the 2016 presidential campaign. But coming up next, we'll speak with his -- one of, certainly, youngest supporters. This little guy, 10 years of age, introduced, quite an honor for him, Donald Trump to the stage there last night in Iowa. We'll ask him why he is supporting Donald Trump.

And coming up next, much more on our breaking news about an attempted stabbing. A suspect drew a knife on FBI agents, we're just learning, during this ISIS raid, an investigation in New York. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:26:05] BALDWIN: Donald Trump took his presidential campaign on the road last night to Iowa and he did not disappoint. He launched more unfiltered one-liners against his opponents.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I watched Jeb Bush yesterday. He can't even put on a tie and jacket. He's running for president. Rubio, Rubio was really weak on immigration. His poll numbers plummeted. And all of sudden he said, oh, I'm very strong on immigration. Well, you know where he is. I think he's a highly rated person. And, by the way, I have better hair than he does, believe me, all right. And it is my hair.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Well, all eyes today are on 10-year-old Iowan native Shay Doyle. He cannot even vote yet, but this is a kid on a mission to get The Donald elected. There we go, he says. The soon to be fifth grader spoke at Trump's event last night. He wants his hometown to get behind the man he said is, quote, "the North American dream."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHAY DOYLE, WANTS IOWANS TO VOTE FOR DONALD TRUMP: And I am very excited to hear that Mr. Trump is running for president. Can you guys believe that or what? I have eight years before I can vote, so I'm relying on all of you to vote for Mr. Trump for me. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And Shay Doyle now joins me.

Shay Doyle, I was saying to you in commercial break, I said, you're such a little stud. What was your response?

DOYLE: I get that a lot.

BALDWIN: I rest my case.

Let's go back, though, to when you first met Donald Trump. Shay, how did you meet him and what is it about Donald Trump that, you know, you really love and admire so much?

DOYLE: Well, I first saw him on "The Apprentice" and he sounded like a really good guy. He had a great personality. So I started watching him and then I started studying him and then he quickly became my idol.

BALDWIN: Wow. Idol status. That's not nothing. When did you first meet him?

DOYLE: Werberg (ph) College. And it's --

BALDWIN: And when was that?

DOYLE: April 26th.

BALDWIN: And what was that like?

DOYLE: It was amazing. There -- he just gave me advice and there's absolutely no other feeling like it in the world.

BALDWIN: He gave you advice. What did he tell you?

DOYLE: Do what you love. Not what your mom and dad love, but do what you love and you will be happy.

BALDWIN: And what did your mom say about that?

DOYLE: She was almost crying. But that's about -- that's all I can say.

BALDWIN: So -- OK, so Donald Trump gave you advice. Here's my hard- hitting question for you, Shay. You know, listen, I understand he's your -- I understand he's your idol, but this guy is also taking some serious heat from fellow opponents, members of the media, as far as sort of, you know, that big speech he gave yesterday. What advice would you give Mr. Trump? DOYLE: What would I say to Mr. Trump? Don't take it personally. Maybe

-- it just happens in presidential elections. I mean Hillary Clinton got a lot of static last year. Jeb Bush is getting static from Trump. Hillary's getting static from Trump. And Hillary's giving static to Trump. And Jeb is giving static to Trump. It just happens.

BALDWIN: It does just happen. I mean it sounds like you're on a first name basis with all these people, so clearly you know what you're talking about with all this static. So, what do you want to do when you grow up, by the way?

DOYLE: I want to either be the president, a lawyer or a businessman.

BALDWIN: I am glad you're not holding back at 10 years of age. You have big -- big dreams and I wish you the best with that. Hey, since you mentioned you -- you got to know Donald Trump from "The Apprentice," can you give me your best, "you're fired."

[14:30:00] DOYLE: You're fired!

BALDWIN: Yes. Shay Doyle, best of luck to you, little man. We appreciate it very much.

DOYLE: You too.

BALDWIN: Thank you. I need all -- all I can get from you. Shay Doyle, ladies and gentlemen.