Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Bernie Sanders Gaining Ground; Donald Trump Under Fire; Manhunt Continues. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired June 17, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:02]

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: The search today was part of a broader case involving another ISIS-related suspect that was announced yesterday. And in that case, a 20-year-old aeronautics student from Queens was arrested and charged with plotting to build and detonate bombs in New York, Brooke.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And, again, as I have heard you say, but it's worth reiterating, you have the Queens case. You have what happened today. You have what happened in Boston a couple of weeks ago.

And to your point, this is a time in which the federal government are really digging down on potentially homegrown terror because, what, instances are up?

PEREZ: That's right, absolutely.

I was just meeting last week with counterterrorism officials on the West Coast. And they tell me that they have not seen as high a threat in any time in recent memory. And that's what got them concerned. You recall the attack in Garland, Texas, just a few weeks ago, in which two gunman tried to attack a Prophet Mohammed cartoon contest, Brooke.

And, apparently, that incident is now inspiring other people to try to carry out other attacks in this country. So the FBI is increasing its surveillance. We know that local law enforcement, big police departments are doing some of the same because they believe that one of these attacks could happen at any time. And they want to try to do what they can to stop it.

BALDWIN: All right. Evan Perez, thank you very much in Washington, D.C.

PEREZ: Absolutely.

BALDWIN: Let's broaden this out now with our CNN global affairs correspondent Kimberly Dozier.

And, Kim, today's search, as Evan pointed out, this is all connected to what happened over the weekend, a 20-year-old Queens man who was charged with conspiring to provide material support to ISIS. And I was just talking to Evan about it. It seems like he mentioned

the inspiration from what happened in Garland, more arrests. What's happening?

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, I was just at a conference of Muslim and Mideast scholars who are trying to figure out the same thing. Why are so many of their young people being attracted to ISIS?

And as near as they could figure out, it's that ISIS understands not only American and Western culture better than a lot of these scholars and Muslim leaders do, but that they also know how to tap into the anger against it.

One scholar said a lot of imams in this country, in the United States aren't too familiar with that Kim Kardashian-Kanye West culture. They don't know to advise their young people how to square traditional Islamic principles with that culture and how to advise them to fit in.

ISIS is telling them a very simple message. That culture insults your beliefs. Attack.

BALDWIN: Why are they so -- why is ISIS so familiar with Western culture then? Where did that come from?

DOZIER: Well, a lot of people have -- within the ranks of ISIS are foreign fighters who have come from other parts of Europe and some from the United States.

And that helps feed into this knowledge of, OK, this is what's going on in the outside world. This is what we're building a so-called caliphate against. And so that message is very seductive. It's not the message of, be patient, try to fit in, try to find where you belong here. It's, no, they're wrong, you're right and you should attack back.

BALDWIN: Kim Dozier, thank you. It's frightening.

Ten thousand square acres scoured, 1,400 leads, but not a single scrap of evidence here, no trace of two escaped killers. So now the manhunt expands.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAJ. CHARLES GUESS, NEW YORK STATE POLICE: Today, the search for escaped inmates Richard Matt and David Sweat will expand and shift to other areas surrounding Dannemora. Personnel are being redeployed to other areas based on information gathered during the investigation.

People in the region should expect to see law enforcement in their community as the search expands.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And as the search expands, police are now eying two people who could be key here to tracking down these two cold-blooded murderers.

You have the prison seamstress Joyce Mitchell, who is now sitting in that prison, a jail cell herself, and her husband, Lyle Mitchell, a source telling CNN that Joyce Mitchell warned her husband about the inmates' plan to bust out of jail and kill him. But his lawyer says he has no idea about her sexual relationship with these inmates and that he is not planning on testifying on her behalf.

But a huge revelation just into this CNN, this lawyer telling us -- quote -- "He is not denying the allegations against Joyce."

Joining me now, Art Roderick, former assistant director of the U.S. Marshals Office.

Art, welcome back.

ART RODERICK, FORMER U.S. MARSHAL: Hi, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Let me throw up on the screen the two pictures. These are they call progression photos. This is what these two would look like after 11 or so days -- here we go -- in the woods or wherever they are.

[15:05:00]

But, listen, wouldn't they then try to disguise themselves? How, in your experience, have people done that?

RODERICK: I mean, they have done it several ways.

As you can see, these progression -- these age progression photos have them in a beard. I mean, they could be clean-shaven. They could have dyed their hair. They could be wearing baseball caps, sunglasses, anything to cover their identity.

But it just -- it seems that this case at this point is entering a transition phase, where as they expand the parameter, it becomes obviously more porous. And I think at this point, the U.S. Marshals have been covering bases by not only alerting Interpol and our friends across Canada and also on the Mexican border, but also as the case gets outside of New York State, they already have a federal warrant to continue the investigation if that does occur.

BALDWIN: So, with a more porous perimeter, which would be good news for them if they're still inside, how do you combat that -- the porousness? And what would the strategy be here if you're expanding your search area because you're not finding anything?

RODERICK: Right. You're right, Brooke.

I mean, but what's happening is, we're into day 12 of this manhunt. And that's really an extended period to conduct a manhunt. Sometimes, you can do just as good from the investigative perspective with 10 or 15 law enforcement officials, as opposed to 800. So, very soon, I think you're going to see this intense manhunt break down a little bit. I think it's good that they still have it going, but I think we're

going to start seeing leads possibly come outside of the New York area, which means it's entering into the investigative phase.

BALDWIN: What do you mean leads outside? You mean potentially, what, Canada, maybe Mexico?

RODERICK: Yes, could be Canada, Mexico, could be New England states, could be -- you know, I see this case actually shifting to more of a national and international focus, as opposed to just New York State.

But I think they do have a good plan where they are covering all their bases by continuing with a manhunt, but also covering the domestic, the national and international leads as they come in.

BALDWIN: I mean, I cringe a little bit, Art, hearing you say potentially international. Everyone thought they would have been caught in a matter of days, and, as you point out, this is now day 12. How do you -- the question is obviously how they pulled it off. You can't answer that.

But I don't know. I'm just almost, you know -- you know, I'm so struck by the fact that it's day 12 and nothing, and beyond what -- let's say this gets into two weeks. Beyond that, doesn't the potential for them to stay out of sight increase?

RODERICK: It does, because, obviously, the -- I mean, you're talking about our frustration. Can you imagine the frustration that's going in within that law enforcement officials' camp?

BALDWIN: No.

RODERICK: It's got to be crazy in there. And I will tell you, as this expands out further, you know, it's almost impossible to keep this manhunt going and keep expanding the perimeter.

That just kind of -- when I look at this and see how big the -- the perimeter was fairly large to begin with. Now it's almost unmanageable. And it's also -- from a perspective of budget issues, it's almost unsustainable. But, of course, public safety is number one, and they will keep this going. But I think soon you will be hearing leads possibly coming from outside of the New York area.

BALDWIN: So, just quickly, how does this compare to let's say the toughest manhunt you were assigned to?

RODERICK: This is a very -- I'll tell you, this is definitely up in the top five. I did a lot with the Alcatraz escape back in the '80s, '90s and early 2000s.

Of course, those individuals were never found, possibly presumed dead, but, at this point, who knows this. This is very similar to that. Of course, we're only in day 12. But I think with the way we conduct fugitive investigations nowadays, that they will be arrested. It's just a matter of time.

BALDWIN: OK. Art Roderick, thank you very much.

RODERICK: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Next, Donald Trump offending just about everyone in his campaign kickoff speech, but one group in particular is firing back today -- why Donald Trump is being called racist for his comments about Mexico.

Plus, Rachel Dolezal launching a national debate over race and identity over her position as a chapter president in the NAACP, obviously now no longer. But my next guest is an African-American woman and she says no big deal in a sense. Hear why .

And a psychiatrist who listened to a monster before his shooting spree inside of a movie theater makes chilling revelations about what James Holmes told her about his desire to kill.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:14:10]

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Billionaire real estate mogul and Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump on the campaign trail in Iowa, but people are still talking about his rather unorthodox Trump Tower announcement that he's running for 2016. Critics are definitely taking issue with some of the scathing comments he made about Mexico, about Mexicans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems and they're bringing those problems with us.

They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people. But I speak to border guards, and they tell us what they're getting. And it only makes common sense. It only makes common sense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:15:01]

BALDWIN: Joining me now from New Hampshire, CNN senior Washington correspondent Joe Johns, where Donald Trump will be in a matter of hours, and also with me, CNN en Espanol senior correspondent Juan Carlos Lopez.

And, Juan Carlos, I mean, I just have to begin with you. Listen, I have heard a lot -- read a lot of adjectives today, everything from racist to absurd. I know Mexico's interior minister quoted as saying prejudicial and absurd, just to generate controversy.

What has the response been? JUAN CARLOS LOPEZ, CNN EN ESPANOL CORRESPONDENT: Well, along those

lines. There are those who don't take Donald Trump seriously or his comments.

It's not the first time he insults Mexico or Mexicans. And the interesting part here, Brooke, is that Mexican immigration to the United States is at its lowest rate in years. There are more Mexicans going back to Mexico. Most of the immigration through the southern border is people coming from Central America.

But, still, the Mexican government usually tries to stay out of U.S. politics. But they saw it necessary to respond to Mr. Trump.

BALDWIN: I mean, Joe, you have covered many a politician in your years in Washington. The notion of calling Mexicans rapists, people lose their jobs over words like those. And this is a man running for the president of the United States.

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: That's absolutely true.

And as you talk across the spectrum of Republicans, there is a lot of concern about these words from Trump. But I also have to point out to you the concern is sort of based on whether or not you take Trump seriously right now as a candidate.

So, National Council of La Raza called him a very silly man. But there were some other much more serious, I think, reactions out there. The bottom line with Donald Trump is, he's been saying this kind of thing again and again and again, and it appeals to a certain segment that is worried about jobs, worried about the security of the border.

On the other hand, the Republican Party has been trying to reach out to Hispanics, Latinos to try to get them in the tent.

BALDWIN: Yes. Yes.

JOHNS: And this doesn't help at all. It could put some other Republicans very much on the spot as we move toward debates, Brooke.

BALDWIN: But here's the thing. And, Juan Carlos, this is to you.

A lot of people like Donald Trump. They like that he speaks so candidly. He's still polling. I mean, what does that tell you?

LOPEZ: I mean, it tells me that he has a strategy, that he's making headlines. He's getting the attention he's always craving. So this is typical Donald Trump.

Now, as Joe said, will this translate in a boost to his possibilities of becoming the Republican nominee? Probably not. He's upsetting people who were not going to vote for him anyway and he's probably trying to get some people on board. But I guess the question is, is he seriously considering running for the presidency or for the nomination?

And with what we have heard yesterday and today, I think many can put that in doubt.

BALDWIN: Juan Carlos Lopez, thank you so much.

Joe Johns again there in Manchester, New Hampshire, about two hours away from Donald Trump's next event, we will be looking for you later this evening. Thank you both very much.

The Donald Trump name may be able to draw some crowds. But another candidate's campaign is definitely showing unexpected signs of life, Democratic Senator Bernie Sanders packing rallies with standing-room- only supporters. At last Sunday's event in Iowa, he was surprised about the size of the crowd, joked about knocking down some walls to make room.

The Vermont senator is also up in the polls, making gains on Hillary Clinton in one New Hampshire survey. A Suffolk University poll shows Sanders getting 31 percent of likely Democratic primary voters, compared to Clinton's 41.

So, David Chalian, our CNN political director and guru, I want to get to the polling numbers in just a minutes. But when you just look at like the sheer, the crowds at his events and the rallies, and it's just getting bigger, why is that happening?

(CROSSTALK)

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, Brooke, there is one element to politics that is sort of an untouchable. And that is enthusiasm, right?

And when you have a candidate -- we have seen this in the past. I'll speak to just Democratic contests in the past, just with a Howard Dean or other candidates that sort of surprise you and come from this more liberal base, wing of the party, and they get very enthusiastic about the candidate that has ideological purity, which Bernie Sanders has.

It doesn't necessarily always convert into a win. It did for Barack Obama, that enthusiasm.

BALDWIN: Yes.

CHALIAN: But right now Bernie Sanders is feeling -- it's where the energy is, it's where the excitement is, it's where the enthusiasm is for the folks in the party that are seeking that ideological purity.

BALDWIN: And is this what those numbers are all about in New Hampshire with Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton, that enthusiasm?

CHALIAN: I do think it is.

And, listen, that's a warning sign for Hillary Clinton. I don't think Bernie Sanders right now is posing some sort of mortal threat to Hillary Clinton's very formidable candidacy. But I do think, listen, he comes from neighboring Vermont. He's known in New Hampshire.

[15:20:00]

And he is getting that sort of -- the folks that were waiting and hoping for Elizabeth Warren to get into the party, he's now a vehicle, a vessel for that non-Hillary vote to all coalesce around and get really excited about.

But I will remind you, if you go back, Hillary Clinton to me is almost like an incumbent or almost like a sitting vice president, that kind of support from the party. And if you go back into 2000 and look at Bill Bradley vs. Al Gore, if you remember that contest, Bill Bradley did get 36 or 37 percent of vote in Iowa. I think he got north of 45 percent in the New Hampshire primary.

But he sort of exited the stage, and wasn't at the end of the day an enormous factor. We may see something similar here with Bernie Sanders. He's going to have an impact on Hillary. She's going to need to respond to him, deal with him in debates. But he may not be actually proving to be a mortal threat to her candidacy.

BALDWIN: OK. Well, speaking of Hillary Clinton, we just wanted to pop in some live pictures, Hillary Clinton speaking at an event in South Carolina.

David Chalian, thank you.

CHALIAN: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, major developments in the Colorado theater shooting, another juror dismissed here in the mass murder trial of James Holmes, this happening amid chilling testimony from the psychiatrist who worked one on one with James Holmes before his shooting spree.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:25:27]

BALDWIN: A fifth juror has been dismissed in the Colorado theater shooting trial of James Holmes.

Today's juror was dismissed for not telling the judge that they recognized a witness who testified last month. The other jurors were dismissed for conflicts of interest and exposure to media reports.

So the court now has 19 jurors remaining, 12 of whom will decide if James Holmes is either guilty or not guilty by reason of insanity. One of the issues these jurors need to consider here is this disturbing testimony from his psychiatrist, Dr. Lynne Fenton. During therapy, Holmes told her that he thought about killing people three to four times a day.

This is the same woman who Holmes mailed his journal to just days before the shooting in that theater, inside of that journal, pages and pages of plans and diagrams of the massacre at Century movie theater in Aurora, Colorado. Investigators found it in the department's mailroom four days too late. And although Dr. Fenton testified that Holmes spoke often of homicide,

these specific plans and targets were never mentioned. Fenton says that that is why she never called the police.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. LYNNE FENTON, PSYCHIATRIST: OCD symptoms were the worst they had been. And the solution to the -- quote -- "biological problem would be to eliminate the problem, homicide. But you can't kill everyone, so it's not an effective solution."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did that affect you.

FENTON: How did it affect me?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did you take that?

FENTON: Well, for one thing, I wasn't quite -- I really wasn't sure what he meant by the biological problem. But he seemed to be dismissing the idea of homicide as an effective solution.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can we call this homicidal ideation?

FENTON: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you had patients like that before?

FENTON: I have.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, does that instantly mean in your experience that they're going to go out and commit a crime?

FENTON: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, what do you do to determine how this homicidal ideation may be affecting this person?

FENTON: Well, I try to understand if they are making -- they have a plan, if they're making -- taking any steps to carry out any action that is related to these thoughts, and then, secondly, if the homicidal ideation is directed at any specific target.

QUESTION: And did you ask him those questions?

FENTON: I did.

QUESTION: And what did he tell you?

FENTON: No, to both.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I would like to bring in Dr. Dale Archer. He's a clinical psychiatrist who's written articles about James Holmes for "Psychology Today" magazine. So, Dale, welcome back.

And here's really my first question. You know, listen, I know laws vary state by state as far as when a medical professional needs to pick up the phone and call police. But how do you determine whether the person, your patient is truly a danger or threat to society?

DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: Well, first of all, there are two things in psychiatry 101 that you have to do.

You have to ask if the person has ever had thoughts of harming themselves or had thoughts of harming another. At that point, if you get a yes --

BALDWIN: We know he had both.

ARCHER: -- there, you go through what I call -- we do.

But then you go through what I would call thought, talk, plan, action. So you have thought about it. Have you talked to friends about it? Have you mentioned this? Do you have a plan and have you acted on the plan?

And the important point and the key point here is that you to pursue that doggedly sometimes. You know, in psychiatry, we would like to be able to take our time, build an alliance, get comfortable with the patient, have them get comfortable with us. But if you get a yes to one of those questions, that at that point goes out the window and you have to pursue that.

And sometimes it becomes very uncomfortable, but you still have to do it.

BALDWIN: That's precisely what I wanted to ask you about, right, because though you want that person to continue coming to see you, right, Dale, I mean, you have to establish this trust as well. And so -- and we know that this psychiatrist said she was so focused on building, her word, an alliance with James Holmes.

So, then how do you -- at the end of the day, what -- if you need to call it in, you call it in.

ARCHER: Well, at the end of the day, you have to put your priorities in order.

And the priority number one is don't allow a patient to harm themselves or to harm another. And you have to assess that risk no matter what. So, on day one, when they walk in, if they said, yes, I have had thoughts of hurting somebody else, then you got to start pursuing it right then at that time.

The alliance has to be put on the back burner, because you have figure out -- and, sometimes, you have only got that one session to be able to make that call -- is this person dangerous?