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Update on Joyce Mitchell's Involvement in the Escape of David Sweat and Richard Matt; Rachel Dolezal Accused of Faking her Race; Tens of Thousands of Haitian Immigrants on the Verge of Being Kicked out of the Dominican Republic. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired June 17, 2015 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00] DR. DALE ARCHER, WRITER, JAMES HOLMES, A PSYCHIATRIC ANALYSIS: The alliance has to be put on the back burner because you to figure out and sometimes you've only got that one session to be able to make the call, is this person dangerous. And literally you may be saving a life by making that decision. So alliance comes second at that point.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: I know we're not on the inside of it. You didn't at all meet, street James Holmes. But what, you know, you've paged through the journal, we know a bit of his history based upon on this trial. Would you have called police?

ARCHER: You know, I think with a patient that was talking and thinking about it three to four times a day, I would have been very, very on the trigger of calling the police with this guy. I would have questioned him for a full hour. I would have talked -- have you mentioned this to anybody. Have you talked to friend about it.

And one other thing I think that's interesting that the doctor mentioned was that she didn't understand some of the things he was saying. Now, that is a red flag right away. When you get that, psychotic thinking may be in place. And you've got to start reevaluating the assessment then because she had said that she thought I was dealing with his main problem.

But you start getting these bizarre statements and you can't figure out what they mean, often that is the beginning of a thought disorder and that leads to psychosis. So that's something that's very interesting. But you know what, if I had to make the call right now from what I know, I think that, yes, I would have called police.

BALDWIN: You would have called the police.

ARCHER: I think so, yes.

BALDWIN: We know that the prosecutor, you know, emphasized while James Holmes was showing up to his appointments on time, he was taking his meds, he was also buying weapons for this attack, doing this secretly. So again, just based upon what you know, does this sound like insanity or does it sound like intent?

ARCHER: Well, Brooke, here is the big question. OK? It sounds to me, as the therapy went on, he was getting sicker. Now the doctor said she thought she was getting to know him better. I'm not so sure about that. I'm not sure this wasn't a developing psychosis. We know he planned it. Look. He had the notebook. We've seen that. Now, he is talking about buying weapons while he was going to see the psychiatrist. So that's nothing new.

But the big question what happened in the week before the event. I would want witnesses to tell me was he behavior deteriorating. Was he becoming a weird and strange guy? Because that that would indicate to me that, yes, he had the thoughts. But until he had the psychotic break, he wasn't going to act on them.

On the other hand, if we have the testimony that says, no, he was the same old guy, didn't change, then I would be inclined to think, you know what, he was rational, he was coherent, he was not psychotic and this is just a very, very mean and vile individual who decided to go out and fill people. But that's the question. The week before is going to be the answer.

BALDWIN: Right. We'll continue having conversations. We'll see what happens there in the courtroom in Centennial, Colorado.

Dale Archer, thank you so much.

ARCHER: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, new details in today on the manhunt for the two escaped prisoners. Clinton County sheriff there is speaking with Jason Carroll just recently. We'll check in with him from the search zone next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:37:31] BALDWIN: I want to tell you the new details about this woman arrested for allegedly helping these two killers escape from upstate New York state prison. A source with knowledge of the investigation says Joyce Mitchell knew about the escapees he has planned to kill her husband and she warned him that his life could be in danger.

I want to go straight to Jason Carroll who is there. I know you just spoke with the sheriff here. You have more information. What did he share with you?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, yes. You know I spoke to the Clinton county sheriffs about Joyce Mitchell. He said that she's very composed. He also said that she's basically absorbing everything that's going on around her. He also told me, Brooke, that she's actually been watching the news reports, watching all of the coverage about the prison escape. And I asked him based on his interaction with her and based on all of the allegations and all of the accusations surrounding what she may or may not have done, if any of this is beginning to weigh on her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARROLL: Has she expressed any remorse, any regret at all? SHERIFF DAVID FAVRO, CLINTON COUNTY, NEW YORK: I think it's probably

a little early for that. There's an awful lot going on around her, as you can see just with the media attention. And I think she's just still consuming that and absorbing that to be able to express too many feeling.

CARROLL: I know you also mentioned that perhaps she's actually watching some of the news reports.

FAVRO: I'm sure she is. They have access to various types of media, newspaper, magazines, as well as television.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARROLL: And Brooke about that murder plot, I actually spoke to Joyce Mitchell's attorney this afternoon. That was just a short while ago. And as yaw know, and as you were saying that Richard Matt and David Sweat allegedly had some sort of a plot to murder Joyce Mitchell's husband, Lyle Mitchell. I asked Joyce Mitchell's attorney about that. Wanted to give him on the record. He said yes, his client did know about that, gave the warning to Lyle Mitchell but he said that was the extent of it. He said quote, "just because she heard something about it doesn't mean she was going to act on it. I don't believe she was involved in any attempt to kill her husband."

As you know, there were some reports and some allegations about that surrounding her involvement in that as well. So an investigation very much under way and in terms of if bigger picture, the search very much underway as well - Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right, Jason. Thank you so much in Dannemora, New York.

Now, really the one of the biggest questions is how a wife, how a mother even just gets into a relationship with not just one but two of these convicted killers, according to a source. And at least one of them was an alleged sexual relationship. That was with Richard Matt, a psychopathic killer who tortured and dismembered his boss. But this is actually a known term. It's actually called (INAUDIBLE). And it's a disturbing subject of the documentary entitled "serial killer groupies, a love story".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[15:40:18] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to a recent FBI study there have been 400 serial killers in the United States and they've murderers 4,000 victims. Once they're caught they become America's newest celebrities. They're featured on magazine covers, movies are made about their lives and books are written. Serial killers become house hold names achieving rock star levels of fame and notoriety. And just like rock stars they have thousands of female fans.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In order to understand --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So I spoke with a woman, you just heard her voice, she is Joy Krause. She is the director of that documentary. And just last hour she explained to me why anyone would be attracted to a killer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOY KRAUSE, DIRECTOR, SERIAL KILLER GROUPIES, A LOVE STORY: There are many reasons. Some people like the fame. You know, if you have a letter from Charles Manson, suddenly, you're the life of the party. Others like the closeness with danger. And you mentioned hybristophilia (ph). And the definition of that is getting sexual arousal and excitement by being around danger or dangerous people. And --

BALDWIN: That is answer actual thing. That is a scientific term.

KRAUSE: Yes. Absolutely. And it's more common than I realized when I became -- began this work a few years ago. I had no idea how popular, especially serial killers are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Joy Krause.

Just in days after stepping down from her role in the NAACP and being questioned and questioned about her race and identity, there is now word that Rachel Dolezal has been found guilty of ethics violations by her city. Hear why next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:46:34] BALDWIN: Got some news now on Rachel Dolezal, the former NAACP leader accused of faking her race. Now, is facing new trouble. This is what we've just learned. The city of Spokane, Washington says Dolezal violated ethics rules while heading a police oversight commission. The city says an independent investigation found that Dolezal revealed names of citizens who made complaints against police violating confidentiality agreements and now she may have stepped down from her post at the NAACP in Spokane, but she's not backing down when it comes to questions about her race and identity.

In this latest interview with NBC News, the former NAACP chapter president says she is quote-unquote definitely not white despite the fact that both-her white parents have presented the pictures and birth certificates to prove it. Now Rachel Dolezal has put her mother and father into question.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RACHEL DOLEZAL, FORMER NAACP CHAPTER PRESIDENT: When somebody asks are you black, which I actually don't get asked very often until recently, since a few days ago, then I say yes. I do -- I am black. I know who raised me. I haven't had a DNA test. There's been no biological proof that Larry and Ann are my biological parents.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You doubt whether Ruthanne and Larry who say they are your parents? You doubt whether they are your parents?

DOLEZAL: I'm just saying I can't prove that. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's a birth certificate that has your name

on it and their names on it. Why would you doubt something so fundamental?

DOLEZAL: I'm not saying that I can't prove they're not. But I don't know that I can actually prove they are. I mean, the birth certificate is issued a month and a half after I was born. I definitely am not white. Nothing about being white describes who I am. So, you know, what's the word for it? You know, I mean, the closest thing that I can come to is if you're black or white, I'm black.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's discuss with these ladies. I have CNN legal analyst Sunny Hostin with me and Keli Goff, columnist for "the Daily Beast."

So ladies, welcome. Still much to explore on this one. So let's go right in.

I read your piece in "the Daily Beast" where you sort of talk about how you are basically like this is not news. You're saying that white women have been, your words, stealing black women's beauty for years.

KELI GOFF, COLUMNIST, THE DAILY BEAST/THE ROOT: Well, yes. And let me just add that do I think the story has been over covered in terms of being treated like actual news? Absolutely. Am I guilty of covering it, absolutely because here I am.

BALDWIN: It's resonating.

GOFF: It is resonating. It's actually struck a chord. My first thing here is I have tremendous empathy because I think no one can listen to this woman being interviewed and not be convinced she's one slice short of a functioning pie. There's something off about what she's sort of saying and kind of trying to convince herself.

But I'm glad we're having the conversation. Because as I explain in my piece, it's very odd that when (INAUDIBLE) it is iconic and yet black women are still trying to figure out whether wearing cornrows will cost them a promotion. And so, the fact that we are actually - she was talking about that in the work that she was doing as wacky, odd and possibly offensive as her dishonesty is. I'm actually glad that we're having all these conversations about racial identity and beauty that all these things that we might not be having as much as we should nor not by the story.

BALDWIN: And I want you to chime in. But Bo Derek never said, OK, I think I'm black. I mean, this woman really believes she is.

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, I think that's the issue for so many of us. And I agree, I mean historically African-American women have worn cornrows. Historically, African-American women have not been embraced as sort of the beauty standard. And so, when you have a blond blue eyed white woman now aspiring or pretending to be African- American and sort of -- [15:50:22] BALDWIN: She wouldn't say she's pretending. I'm just

saying. She was sitting here.

HOSTIN: She believes that she's African-American. She identifies, I believe, as African-America.

BALDWIN: Identifies is the correct word.

HOSTIN: And just sort of dressing that way, that really is fascinating. But I think the problem that so many people are having, Brooke and Keli, is the deception, right? It is just not only the deception in terms of being -- saying that she's black, so therefore probably getting that NAACP leadership. But also being on this police oversight board, also teaching Africana studies from the perspective of a black woman. That in and of itself is not being authentic, not sort of having that authentic experience. That's troubling.

BALDWIN: On the notion of deception, I'm glad you brought that up. I had a fascinating conversation yesterday with a professor, Camille Gear Rich. And she wrote this opinion piece in "the Washington Post." And she said, you know, Brooke, and I want to play the sound bite, the second sound bite we have teed up, because she says, you know, so many people see this deception and lying but she talked a lot about identity and she has written pages and pages on this. Rachel Dolezal does not think she's lying. Listen to this professor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAMILLE GEAR RICH, PROFESSOR, USC GOULD SCHOOL OF LAW: I don't think she thinks she lied. I think she thinks that racial identity is something that you actualize in the way that you live, and the commitments that you have, in the family connections that you have. And that she did things that established herself as a member of the black community. So I think that's why she's resisting characterizing what she did as lying.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOSTIN: I don't believe that.

BALDWIN: Respond to that.

HOSTIN: And the reason I don't believe that is because she sued Howard University in 2002 for discrimination as a white woman. And that, I think, is the huge disconnect here. If she really believed that she were black, if she really believed that -- if it's true that she's been drawing with the brown crayon since she was five years old and that was truly her identity, then I don't think she would have sued based on the premise that she was discriminated against as a white woman. And that is where that argument, for me at least, falls apart.

GOFF: Look. Just because my mom tells me I'm pretty and I wake up in the morning and look in the mirror and say hey, Keli, you're a super model does not make me one. So this idea of identifying at something and not making it so as a real issue, what I will say is interesting about where this conversation have taken us is I interviewed some experts last year for a piece who talked about we're about 30 years away from our racial definitions being completely fluid. And people saying a multiracial people --

BALDWIN: Checking the boxes.

GOFF: Fastest growing in the country.

BALDWIN: Right.

GOFF: So we're only a decade away from someone saying I have a black grandparent. I look like Brooke Baldwin. But why can't I apply for the African-American scholarship? She has just forced us to have this conversation earlier. And I think that is an important one.

BALDWIN: It is an important one.

Keli Goff, Sunny Hostin, thank you both so much. I really appreciate both of you.

Coming up next here on CNN, back to our breaking news here. We just learned an FBI agent attacked with this weapon. This is first time we were able to put the picture up here. This knife while searching the home of a suspected ISIS sympathizer in New York. We have more on that. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:57:40] BALDWIN: Tens of thousands of Haitian immigrants are on the verge of being kicked out of the Dominican Republic. This government ordered deportations across the country's border supposed to begin tomorrow. But all kinds of controversy now surround this potential threat. Some of the people who could be deported there, Dominican Haitians, so legal citizens, they are born in the Dominican Republic, but of Haitian descent. Haitians claim people are being mistreated and targeted because of coloring of their skin. Critics say human rights groups have been definitely silent about this current crisis.

Here's more from our CNN senior Latin-American affairs editor, Rafael Romo.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RAFAEL ROOM, CNN SENIOR LATIN-AMERICAN AFFAIRS EDITOR (voice-over): They patiently wait in line, IDs on hand, hoping to get documents that will allow them to stay here legally. They are Haitian immigrants living in the Dominican Republic. Some migrated right after the devastating 2010 earthquake, but most have been in the Dominican Republic for much longer, even decades. Now their status is on the line as the deadline moves.

In 2013, the Dominican Supreme Court ruled that people born to noncitizens as far back as 1929 did not qualify for citizenship. Immigrants have until Wednesday evening to show documentation to legalize their status. The Dominican foreign minister announced that people without legal papers will have to return to their country of origins. Human rights groups fear massive deportations. Dominican immigration authorities say Haitians are the largest group of foreigners their country with about half a million in applying for residency hasn't been easy.

I've been waiting for 15 days here and I have yet to get any papers, this immigrant says. Haitian authorities are getting ready for what they consider imminent deportations.

This Haitian border official says his government is opening two repatriation centers along the border to receive the migrants that will have to return to their country. Dominican officials say all is not bad news.

On the positive side, he says, we will have more than 200,000 people who were in our territory without status and are now in the process of getting their documents. But there will also be at least a quarter million who don't have papers Haitians who will have to go back to their country, even though they have called the Dominican Republic home for years.

Rafael Romo, CNN, (INAUDIBLE).

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me. "The LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts now.