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Dr. Drew

New Pics of Caitlyn Jenner; Arizona Pastor Hopes Caitlyn Jenner "Dies and Goes to Hell"; Jenner to be Honored at ESPYs; The Man Who Regretted Sex Change Surgery

Aired June 17, 2015 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

[21:00:15] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight, new pictures of Caitlyn Jenner after her transition. Why some people hate what she is doing and

are not afraid to say so. And, a man who says he made a huge mistake by having had sexual reassignment surgery.

It all starts right now with the "Top of the Feed." A pastor in Arizona tells his congregation at Faithful Word Baptist Church, he hopes Caitlyn

Jenner, quote, "Dies and goes to hell." Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PASTOR STEVEN ANDERSON, PASTOR AT FAITHFUL WORD BAPTIST CHURCH: You know, this week, this filthy, sodomite picture is everywhere and people are

showing this transvestite or transgender or whatever this guy is, Bruce Jenner, has basically mutilated his body, apparently.

And I mean, this filthy pervert is just like on all these magazine covers and just everywhere. Literally, hundreds of millions of people are being

subjected to looking at a trans-freak. I have no love, no love, for this Bruce freak!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yes! Amen!

PASTOR ANDERSON: I hope he dies today! I hope he dies and goes to hell! He is disgusting. He is filthy. He is reprobate. But yet today, people

think I am crazy. Yes, you are right. I am crazy, because I think that every man should keep his privy member in place. I am nuts.

You say, "Well, you know, what do I pray for?" Pray for your needs and pray for Bruce Jenner to die and go to hell.

UNIDENTIFIED CROWD: Amen!

PASTOR ANDERSON: There is something to pray for. So, you got five nice things to pray for. Let us bow our heads and everyone have a prayer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Joining us to discuss, Vanessa Barnett, Hiphollywood.om; Emily Roberts, psychotherapist, author of "Express Yourself: A Teen Girl`s Guide

To Speaking Up And Being Who You Are," and Michael Catherwood, my "Love Line" and KABC Radio co-host.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: All right, Emily, you seemed to have had a strong reaction to that guy. What are you thinking?

EMILY ROBERTS, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It is shocking that he is talking to so many people about this and using the words "Die." I mean this is so

dangerous to be teaching people.

PINSKY: So, it could be ultimately inciting hate and violence?

ROBERTS: Yes.

VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely. But, let us be clear. He got like one amen and a half of a snap. Like, nobody was really feeling

his message. And, it is unfortunate, because as a Christian, when people speak like that, it looks bad on the entire community. But, we are

supposed to be promoting love, love for everyone. Even if we do not agree with certain choices, it is about love. God is love.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: No. No. So, using the bible to harm someone is misuse of the bible, right?

BARNETT: Look, we are all sinners. We are not supposed to take the bible and beat everybody with it.

PINSKY: Nobody. Nobody. It is you, Vanessa.

(LAUGHING)

BARNETT: It is not supposed to beat everyone with it. You are not supposed to condemn someone to hell. Like, who the hell do you think you

are?

PINSKY: And this is not the first time this pastor has been in the headlines for saying some wild stuff. In 2014, you said, quote, "If you

execute the homos like god recommends, you would not have all the aids running rampant." And in 2009, quote, "I am going to pray that he (Obama),

dies and goes to hell."

MICHAEL CATHERWOOD, "LOVE LINE" AN KABC RADIO CO-HOST: Is not that against the law?

PINSKY: He is not saying he is going to kill the president, he just wishes the president would die.

CATHERWOOD: In that last sermon, the one about Caitlyn Jenner, he kept saying it and we our kids, look around you, our children have to be exposed

to this. I honestly -- I mean this sincerely, I would much rather my child is exposed to transgender than that kind of language, wishing death upon

someone is really -- I mean that is a grotesque abuse of human interaction.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: Vanessa, what I keep hearing from Christian sort of establishment is that it is a world view that is being sort of taken down by people like

Caitlyn Jenner, but this guy is espousing violence and hatred. Is not that a world view that is coming apart?

BARNETT: And, I do not think anyone in the community would agree with him either. I think what happens is that, we do have a certain code that we

live by. We do live by the bible. We do believe with what the bible says.

But also, you cannot believe one-half of the bible without leaving the other and God loves everyone. Everyone is God`s child. So, when you speak

that way and want someone to die because of their choices.

You can say, I do not agree with those choices. I would never recommend those choices. I do not understand those choices, but when you say you

want someone to die and go to hell, that is not of God.

PINSKY: According to the church`s website, that pastor, quote, "Holds no college degree, but has well over 140 chapters of the bible memorized word

for word."

CATHERWOOD: Well, so what? I mean I memorized "Scarface" word for word. Does that make me capable of telling you about drug dealing?

PINSKY: In the audience, I have Aurora Persi - Persichetti, sorry, Aurora. Transgender YouTuber. And, I am wondering, and your brother also a

transgender, how do you guys react to this?

(LAUGHING)

AURORA PERSICHETTI, TRANSGENDER YOUTUBER: Well, it is hard -- where to even start, I do not even know.

[21:05:00] SASHA PERSICHETTI, AURORA PERSICHETTI`S TRANSGENDER SIBLING/BROTHER: Well, for me, I was just talking to my mom, actually,

about it this morning. I, personally, have gone through calling myself all of those things, and having that reaction --

PINSKY: Meaning -- Meaning wanting to harm yourself?

SASHA PERSICHETTI: Well, just, thinking I am messed up, I should not love myself. I am, you know, everything that everyone is saying bad things

about the transgender community, I have said it to myself many times and had to find a way to kind of breakthrough that in order to love myself.

So, it is kind of weird that I can find it so understandable that people would have that reaction, because I have been there, you know? And, I was

able to get passed it, because loving myself is the only thing I can do, you know?

INSKY: Aurora, can you relate to that?

AURORA PERSICHETTI: Yes. Well, that video was like -- absolutely ridiculous. I do not even know why that needs to be, like, discussed,

first of all, because that was like -- really?

PINSKY: Well, I will tell you why. I will tell you why. I keep hearing the transgender community feels attacked, feels like under, you know, being

judged, and your brother just said the same thing, that he was taking it on himself. I mean not only were other people attacking him.

He was attacking himself. I want to understand that. I do not experience that in my life, but where is that coming from, why do you feel that way?

And, then I hear something like that, it starts to make sense to me. But, that is not the average experience in the world, is not it?

AURORA PERSICHETTI: Well, I still, even though I am like, I am -- I say I am happy with myself. I look in the mirror, I am like, "You are

beautiful," or I hear people say, "You are so confident." I am like here on T.V., I still have such a hard time loving myself. And, I think that is

the case for everybody.

BARNETT: Right.

AURORA PERSICHETTI: And everybody is finding it hard --

CATHERWOOD: I also think it is important to expose and let this type of hatred be seen, because a lot of times, you know, the word transphobic or

homophobic or racist gets thrown around.

And, you know, in my opinion, a lot of times it is misguided. And, you need to show this kind of stuff to expose what real hatred is, what real

narrow-minded thinking is. And, to see, like, what -- that that truly exists. That is not mispronouncing pronouns. That is not getting your

language -- that is hatred.

PINSKY: Yes.

ROBERTS: The problem is, it is in a leadership role, and when someone is already feeling uncomfortable with the skin they are in, right? When a

leader comes there and says some things so damaging and so hateful, it can really impact other people.

Just like what you were saying earlier, it can reinforce something you are struggling with. And, that is so, so dangerous to somebody who is feeling

really insecure with who they are in the moment.

PINSKY: Joining me from the audience, I have James White. He is a director of "Alpha & Omega Ministries." And, James, you do not agree with

that guy, but you also do not agree with Caitlyn Jenner`s public, public coming out.

JAMES WHITE, DIRECTOR OF "ALPHA & OMEGA MINISTRIES": That is true. It is unfortunately that Steven Anderson is even getting the press time that he

is getting, because that is why he does what he does. Believe me, he has preached more sermons against me, personally, than everybody else combined.

So, unfortunately, in the Phoenix, we know a lot about this fellow.

But unfortunately, that also distracts from the real discussion, and that is, when we are talking about what happened in regards to the Jenner

situation, are we talking about something that is good for him and his family, and his grandchildren, or is there something that could have been

better? Unfortunately, that distracts from it.

PINSKY: What could have been better?

WHITE: Well, I am a grandfather like he is. And, I cannot imagine changing the relationship that I have with my wife, with my children, with

my grandchildren in doing what he did. I wish he could have found someone who could have encouraged him to see that there was a purpose in the way

that from a Christian world view --

A believing Christian world view, not the Steven Anderson world view -- that he was created by God for a purpose and that he could find that

purpose if he but pursue it and get the help to o so from the believing community.

PINSKY: And, let me switch over to you, guys, who have been before and after transition. What if somebody had approached you like that, either of

you? Would that made a difference? Would reinforced your negative feelings about yourself? How would that have been received?

SASHA PERSICHETTI: I think like with anything, it just comes down to you finding your way. No one -- It might be the way people have told you, it

is the best way, but until you come to it yourself, you are not going to go through it the same way.

And for me, I have tried every different -- I have tried to be really feminine and do this. I have tried the to do the other way. You know, I

have gone about a lot of ways that I thought was right or people told me to.

And, until everything clicked for me in the path that I have now, have I felt confident enough to take it. So, I do not know what the case is for

other people, but I know for myself, I had to come to it on my own.

AURORA PERSICHETTI: And, the way that we are created, trans people, I was born with a female brain. You do a cat scan of us, we were born with the

brain of a man, brain of a woman. So, we are not changing something, we are just making things right and externally becoming who we are inside.

PINSKY: Next up, Caitlyn Jenner is being honored at the ESPYs with the Arthur Ashe Courage award, and others are being thought of this, perhaps,

more deserving. We will get into that, after this.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

[21:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZOEY TUR, TRANSGENDER REPORTER: You are talking about somebody who had the best plastic surgery, the best makeup, the best photographer, the best

clothes, and the best Photoshop artist.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: This is saving lives, considering how many transgender people commit suicide.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: He is not a woman. God made men and women. He made men and women for a reason. And, Bruce Jenner is destroying what

God created.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: We are talking about Caitlyn Jenner and how some people have reacted since her transition became public. I am back with Vanessa, Emily,

and Mike. James White, who opposes Caitlyn`s transition in our audience.

And, James, you became upset last time you were on the show with us and you responded on YouTube to us. We are going to take a look at that. I have

not seen it yet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WHITE: Bruce Jenner is not a woman. My wife is a woman. Bruce Jenner will never be what my wife has been her entire life. And, I am offended

that anyone would compare him to her.

[21:15:00] It is not just homosexuals or people who mutilate their bodies or pretend to be a gender they are not or whatever else it is, it is all of

us. Every single one of us, abide under the wrath of God. That is what Jesus said. You simply have to say, I do not like Jesus.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: James, why does God care?

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

WHITE: Why does God care? Because in his --

PINSKY: No, but I mean, if these people are happy and not hurting anybody and living a productive life, you know --

WHITE: Yes. God cares about every one of us. He made us for his glory and he gave us direction in Jesus Christ as to how we are to live. So, he

cares so much that he actually came into his own creation in the person of Jesus --

PINSKY: But why does he care about transgenders, not about humans, but --

WHITE: Well, because, in Jesus` teaching, the gift of maleness and femaleness is just that. It is a good gift from God. And, it is central

to the aspect of how we are to relate to one another, how we are to have children, the foundation that we give to society.

PINSKY: And, so people that are ambiguous genitalia or XXY or XYY genetically, those are not God`s gift --

WHITE: You brought that up last time and yet no one that we are talking about is that.

PINSKY: No, but I wonder, why does God not care about those people?

WHITE: We live in a fallen world. And, there are obviously situations, very small number, and we are to stand with those people. But, that is not

what we are talking about here.

We are talking about actually saying that we as individuals can, in our minds, determine what reality is going to be, even when that is against the

reality that we see around us. We see it in the news right now with the transracial stuff. It is the same thing. Does man have the right to make

that kind of change?

PINSKY: Aurora --

ROBERTS: Do you have the right to tell people that they are not deserving of God?

WHITE: The question would be, does God have the right to determine --

ROBERTS: But I am asking you. I am asking you.

WHITE: Well, I am not taking the place of God, ma`am.

ROBERTS: OK.

WHITE: I am simply saying, if God has spoken with clarity, than we need to listen to what he has said. You are shifting that over to me.

ROBERTS: But my question is, what do you do with someone who is suffering inside? What do you do with someone like that comes to you and says, "You

know what? I do not feel good about myself right now. I do not feel safe with myself? What do you do?

WHITE: We introduce them to what the scripture say they have been called to be and you then tell them the spirit of God will assist a person who

desires to do God`s will to accomplish --

PINSKY: That is what -- wait, wait, wait! That is what the Duggars told their son, by the way.

CATHERWOOD: Right. But, also, I am curious -- I am curious if -- you know, I am asking out of general curiosity, if Christ could live, exist as

the father, son, and the holy spirit, why could not a child of God exist as a man or a woman --

WHITE: You do not understand Christian teaching because we do not believe the Christ is the father, son, holy spirit --

CATHERWOOD: I do not.

WHITE: He is only the son. He is not the father nor the spirit.

CATHERWOOD: But Christ can exist in the form to which you find him to be most effective, am I correct?

WHITE: Not from Jesus --

CATHERWOOD: I mean with some people`s view, paintings I have seen of Christ have varied greatly. I mean there is a tremendous variety of images

of Christ --

PINSKY: Let me -- I want to get some of the transgendered youth in here. I have got Jade Ponce. She is a transgender YouTuber as well. Jade, you

heard this conversation. What do you think?

HADE PONCE, TRANSGENDER YOUTUBER: I just felt kind of bad. I could not imagine living my life with so much hate in my heart. I am very spiritual.

I am religious. Ever since the beginning, I know God made me this way, and I still love God. Nothing has changed --

PINSKY: So, Jade, I want to interrupt you. So, from your standpoint -- Aurora, I will ask you the same question. So, from your standpoint, God

made you and you are and you are now more living more consistently with how God made you, as you see it?

PONCE: Yes, absolutely.

PINSKY: Hold on. Aurora, is that correct?

AURORA PERSICHETTI: I absolutely believe that --

PINSKY: Sasha, is that correct?

SASHA PERSICHETTI: Oh, yes. I was also going to actually comment on what he was saying, about how before I came to this, I was not nearly as loving

or I could not be as good of a person to anyone around me that I wanted to be.

PINSKY: Did you try? Did you try?

SASHA PERSICHETTI: I tried. Yes, I thought I was, and as soon as I really --

PINSKY: No, but did you try any spiritual or religious stuff --

SASHA PERSICHETTI: Oh, yes, yes, of course. I tried a lot of things and finally was able to, you know, come at peace with myself and then love

everyone now --

PINSKY: I guess -- James, as a clinician, that is my problem. Because I am into what helps people. That is my job. Not to live by any doctrine,

other than what is good for people, human beings living in this world.

And if this worked, what you were suggesting, just like with the Duggars, if that worked, great, good for them. It does not work. We know that as

clinicians. That is why doctors are participating in this.

WHITE: But Dr. Drew, it was fascinating that you were the one on the last program we did constantly bringing up the number of suicides --

PINSKY: Yes.

WHITE: -- that take place after this --

PINSKY: Yes.

WHITE: Which is an issue that has to be brought up. And, secondly, when we talk about loving, from the Christian perspective, the first person to

love is God. And, then we are to allow that reflection to identify who we are and how we are to be loving in his sight.

PINSKY: Hang on. Vanessa. Vanessa.

BARNETT: And, I do not think it is fair to say that this man has hate in his heart because he has a certain belief that you all do not agree with,

but that is not fair --

PINSKY: I agree. No, I agree. Well, Vanessa, help us understand.

BARNETT: Because I do not have to agree with everything that you do. Caitlyn Jenner might not like some of the things I do, but that does not

mean I have hate in my heart because I do not think that you should go around changing the body that God gave you.

[21:20:00] If god made you that way with certain body parts, who is to say that you are now supposed to go cut those off if God gave you the brain

that you say you have to live a certain life. It is not hateful, that is just not agreeing with you.

CATHERWOOD: And, I agree. And, to be fair, I agree with you, Vanessa, to lump Mr. White in with people who are being hateful, I think is unfair. I

mean he does not necessarily agree with the transgender community, but also I do not hear you espousing any hate. I really do not.

PINSKY: Jade, I think you have a comment you want to make.

PONCE: I just want to clarify a real quick. I did not mean that he had hate in his heart, I meant other people like that.

PINSKY: OK. Fine. OK. Another question from the audience? Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: I just wanted to say, it is more of a comment rather than a question, but I agree totally with you.

PINSKY: With Vanessa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Yes. As a Christian community, my personal belief is that we are created in the image of God and that God has a

purpose for creating us, whether a man or a woman. My heart breaks for transgenders and the struggle that I hear them describe. I am filled with

compassion and love for them. And I can only say --

PINSKY: Why do not you tell a couple that are here. See if they believe you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Yes. I honestly, do. Like, I can -- I am brought to tears at your struggle. And, I only wish that there were people

around you that could pray for you and help you feel better, because all I can say is that even in our own skin, those of us, we struggle too.

And, there are times where we are insecure in our own skin, too. And,there are times where we feel like, you know, the task before us is too great and

we doubt ourself and we wish we were more confident. So --

PINSKY: Would you like to respond, aurora? Go ahead, Aurora. You seem moved by that?

AURORA PERSICHETTI: Yes, we are -- We do struggle. There are definitely things day to day, that I am very -- that get me very depressed and very

upset, but this is really, for lots of us, it is a really happy time. We are realizing, like, who we really are and we are becoming who we have

always been. And so, there is a struggle, though. I think it comes more from other people.

PINSKY: Right, James, ultimately, you said it is a World View.

WHITE: Yes.

PINSKY: That the world view that you have, that you adhere to is deteriorating or changing or being adulterated or something.

WHITE: It is the World View that gave rise to our society and our laws. That is why we are having so many difficulties and so many struggles, is

because that World View is what gave the foundation for our understanding - -

PINSKY: I understand --

CATHERWOOD: But does not the majority of this world that we call Earth have the World View that Allah is God? I mean --

ROBERTS: Wait, wait, wait.

CATHERWOOD: The majority of Earth are Muslims.

WHITE: No.

PINSKY: Buddhists? Hindu? They are certainly not Christian, though.

(LAUGHING)

ROBERTS: Wait, wait. I have to say this is so psychologically --

CATHERWOOD: I am pretty sure. I mean if you --

ROBERTS: This is so psychologically damaging to think that somebody who is struggling on the inside cannot go to their church and be accepted. I

mean, that is got to really suck. I am so disappointed with the fact that I see all these suicides.

CATHERWOOD: Yes.

ROBERTS: Right? We see all this happening. Where are they supposed to go? Therapy? Yes, but you are supposed to trust your church and you are

supposed to trust your religion.

PINSKY: Next up? Please go ahead.

UNIDNETIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: So -- could pray for them and make them feel happier, but if being transgender is what makes them happier, then is not

that enough right there? Why cannot they just be accepted of that.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

Like, I do not understand, you know, if somebody lives as a transgender person and it does not affect you negatively, like, your personal life

negatively, then why does it matter? Why cannot people just live their lives and be happy?

BARNETT: And, if I do not agree with you personally, why cannot I be entitled to my own opinion? I love them with the love of the Lord. I am

not hateful. I want them to be happy. And, if this is how they want to live, I am not saying that they should not live their truth.

What I am saying is, in my -- in my beliefs, when you have any issue that you are struggling, you go to the Lord and ask him for help and he lays out

the guidance for you. And, so when you take that into your own hands, that is just not something I would do and how I would handle the situation. But

by all means, you are not me.

PINSKY: Last comment.

WHITE: Can I address the issue of happiness for a moment?

PINSKY: Please.

WHITE: See, from a Christian World View, happiness is not the first thing we pursue. I can guarantee you, nobody in those landing crafts on D-day

were happy.

PINSKY: Yes. That is right.

WHITE: But they were doing what was right and necessary.

PINSKY: Well --

WHITE: That is a --

PINSKY: Be careful.

WHITE: Unless you want to be speaking German today. What they were doing was pretty important.

PINSKY: Right, because the Germans felt the same way. You know what I am saying? Because the duty --

CATHERWOOD: The Nazis felt guided by God as well.

PINSKY: Yes.

WHITE: The point is, the character, integrity --

PINSKY: Yes, I will -- I will agree with you 1,000 percent and I actually -- I love the topic, and I generally feel we all need to get together in

this country. So, I am going to end this by agreeing with James on this point.

It is not about happiness. Happiness is not what makes a good life. Living a good and just life, living a certain kind of life. And you all

need to decide what that is. A certain kind of life, a good life.

We have lost track of it. We talk about leading the good life, which people mean as money and wealth, nonsense. It is a good life. The guys

that landed on D-day were living a good life, I say.

Next up, some people are taking advantage of Caitlyn Jenner is transition to sell magazines and newspapers. Zoey Tur is here to address that. Back

after this.

[21:25:00] (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AURORA PERSICHETTI: The struggle with coming out on a public stand like she did, I could not imagine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANET BOYNES, FORMER LESBIAN: God created him as a man and in the middle of it he is trying to say that he does not like what God created. The gay

community, transgender, bisexual -- You guys are trying to silence us Christians, when you take God out of the equations, that is why we have so

many problems that we have now

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: She is educating so many people about something that a lot of us do not know about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[21:30:04] WHITE: If god has made us in a certain way and we go against the way he has made us, the result is not going to be life and flourishing.

It is going to be destruction and death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: We are talking about Caitlyn Jenner and there are many who support the transition and others who vocally oppose. I am back with Vanessa,

Emily, and Mike. ESPN will honor Caitlyn Jenner with the Arthur Ashe Courage award at this year`s ESPYs.

Now, a lot of people on Twitter are not happy. They think other athletes were more deserving. Apparently, Noah Galloway comes up a lot. A double-

amputee Iraq war veteran; or Lauren Hill, who battled brain cancer.

Here are some tweets. "sThis is real courage, #NoahGalloway, not #CaitlynJenner." "An absolute joke over this guy. Caitlyn Jenner is no

hero, Lauren Hill is". Mike --

CATHERWOOD: Yes.

PINSKY: It is not like Caitlyn Jenner went lobbied for this award and is responsible for them --

CATHERWOOD: Right. Right.

PINSKY: And, by the way, it is consistent with previous awards they have given. She is the kind of subject that they have sort of -- do you

remember, I think it was an NFL player that came out as gay --

CATHERWOOD: Michael Sam. Yes, he got it last year.

PINSKY: Yes. He got the award -- this is consistent with their good awards too --

CATHERWOOD: I agree. And, you know, it is -- it is a touchy subject, because you are talking about something. When you are not talking about,

you know, the best picture at the Academy Awards. When you are talking about courage, that is a very subjective kind of adjective.

And, you know, people have a very strong feeling and very passionate feelings about things that are kind of ethically intertwined. Things like

courage, things like dignity. I just do not -- I mean really, it is the ESPYs. No, it is not -- you know what I am saying?

(LAUGHING)

We are not going to make her the secretary of state or make her the secretary -- you know, it is like, "Oh, well." And, you also have to

remember that ESPN, their main job is not to please the public. It is to get ratings. And, Caitlyn Jenner is way more famous than the other two

athletes.

BARNETT: They are just capitalizing off of this. They are looking for the numbers they want, people have tuned in.

PINSKY: All right.

BARNETT: And, I think it is unfair to what his legacy was as an athlete.

PINSKY: Well --

CATHERWOOD: I think it takes a lot more courage to live through being in the Kardashian family, maybe even going to Afghanistan.

PINSKY: No, look. The commercial enterprise that is Caitlyn Jenner, that is the Kardashian complex, I guess you can call it. I want to bring in

Zoey Tur, transgender television reporter.

Zoey, you have been critical of the whole, the masterminding of the presentation of Caitlyn Jenner and I guess, A. I would like you to address

that. And B. Is it OK that she gets this award?

ZOEY TUR, TRANSGENDER REPORTER: Well, this is a product rollout. So, this is like Madison Avenue, so they are rolling out their new product. It is

the Kardashian 2.0, you know, with the shiny wheels. So --

PINSKY: And, is that good for Transgenders so far? Look, we are having these big conversations about it.

TUR: No. We are talking about it, that is good. But there is a rebound effect. And, it is not just the transgendered community. It is the

cisgendered or the genetic female community.

They are now being held up to this high standard that this guy sitting there with a remote control at home. You know, they are 60, 65, years old,

and they are watching T.V. and they see Caitlyn Jenner come on and they look over at their wife, and they go, "Oy."

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: So, this is also --

TUR: But it is not fair.

PINSKY: It can also beg the issue of what is a woman -- what does it mean to be a woman. Is it just all that gloss that is on the cover of "Vanity

Fair".

TUR: No, being a woman is being told to sit down, shut up, and listen. That is something I experience a great deal now that I have transitioned.

It is loss of male privilege. And, it is not this gender tourism, where you keep all your parts and you get some parts, and you go back and forth.

PINSKY: Well, let me talk to the experts. Is this make sense? Does the actual --

ROBERTS: I think they are capitalizing on the media on this --

PINSKY: No. The male privilege issue. You guys experienced that.

BARNETT: Oh, yeah, I have heard that.

PINSKY: Do you experience it?

ROBERTS: Yes.

PINSKY: Do you experience male privilege? Do you understand what Zoey is talking about?

CATHERWOOD: Yes.

ROBERTS: Yes. Absolutely. I mean, we are looked at oftentimes as, what? sex symbols.

BARNETT: Right.

ROBERTS: I wish! But, no. No. But you are looked at as how you look. That is what we face. And a lot of times men can get away with -- I say

get away, you do this all the time, it does not matter how you look at times.

PINSKY: Let us Sasha join --

CATHERWOOD: I mean --

PINSKY: Hang on. Sasha, do you know what Zoey is talking about? Does that make sense to you?

SASHA PERSICHETTI: Yes. Totally. I mean for me, it is nice to not get looked at and get comments and yelled at, because it has been really weird

for me having that anyways, especially living in my head.

PINSKY: Have you started doing that to women?

SASHA PERSICHETTI: Oh, God no!

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: I am just saying. I am just saying. Zoey, if you were speaking to Caitlyn today, what advice would you give her?

TUR: Be careful. She is painted herself in a corner. I would say, Caitlyn, expect, you are riding a wave of euphoria right now, but at some

point you are going to have an existential crisis and you are going to wonder, "Where do I fit in, in the world? Will I be loved? Will someone

care for me? You know, will someone love me for myself, for the person I am really am instead of, you know, the gloss and the hype.

CATHERWOOD: Male privilege is a very real thing. I mean I am not going to deny that.

BARNETT: Absolutely.

CATHERWOOD: But you do not know what it is like to get a boner in public. It sucks. It really sucks. If you do not have anything to hold and cover

it up --

(LAUGHING)

TUR: Why are you looking at Dr. Drew when you say that?

[21:35:00] CATHERWOOD: Because I have watched and passed out from all the blood rushing to his massive --

PINSKY: Mike is the gay and straight man in America, just you know. Next up, a man who became a woman but went back to being a man, regrets the sex

change surgery. He is here with us and his story. Back after this.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: When it was Bruce, Bruce had suicidal thoughts. Think about getting a gun when this story broke.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALT HEYER, REGRETS SEX CHANGE SURGERY: But, I worry about the time when the lights go off and the shows go off, and all of a sudden, you know,

nobody is around.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGINV IDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: The people attacking the individual is not a cartoon character. It is someone who is a human being who is at high risk for trouble right

now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:40:04] PINSKY: I feel that is so important. We are talking about Caitlyn Jenner and the reaction to her very public transition. Back with

Vanessa and Mike. In our audience, I have Walt Heyer. He, himself, had a gender reassignment surgery, regretted it, reversed the procedure.

BARNETT: Wow.

PINSKY: He is the author of the book, "Paper Genders." All right, Walt, thank you for joining us. And, I am fascinated by your story and what you

have learned from it and does it cause you to be concerned about Caitlyn Jenner`s mental health?

WALT HEYER, HAD A GENDER REASSIGNMENT SURGERY AND REVERSED THE PROCEDURE: Yes. Absolutely, especially, when I saw the "20/20" show and he talked

about that time he came out of the clinic and the paparazzi were there. And that night he went home and said he paced the floor, considering,

contemplating suicide.

That scares me, because this population of transgenders has a rate of about 41 percent attempted suicide rate. So, when somebody is already talking

about it, at a time when things are really going well for them, you worry about when things go bad, what are they going to do.

PINSKY: Now, I notice you are using the pronoun "him," consciously, I am sure.

HEYER: Right.

PINSKY: When you went to becoming a female, you told us before that was a good experience for you. You felt great during that time.

HEYER: I did. It started out and I was very euphoric about it. I was excited about it and I lived at a female for eight years, but that euphoria

wore off.

PINSKY: Is that what you are talking about, Zoey? You are worrying about that letdown?

TUR: There is a letdown, but it is about managing expectations. Walt managed his expectations as a female to some degree, but after a while, it

ended. I had a conversation earlier, and it is -- it is different for everybody else. But the point is, the older you are when you transition,

the less effective it is. It should be done and treated at a very early age.

PINSKY: How old were you, Walt?

HEYER: I was 42.

PINSKY: 42. That is earlier than, certainly Caitlyn Jenner, who is 60- some.

TUR: Correct, but still there is a rebound effect. So, if you can take at-risk children, start them on puberty blockers and start on hormones --

PINSKY: That is a high-stakes game.

TUR: It is. It is. However, so is suicide.

ROBERTS: Exactly. I have actually done some research and we were talking about this earlier, which is, I think, 15 or 16 now is a better opportunity

for peopleto start accepting -- families to start accepting, not necessarily starting -- not the hormones just yet, necessarily, but

starting that transition. If they are feeling that way, because the suicide rate is so high.

PINSKY: Go ahead.

BARNETT: Because I feel so many times, you have pointed to the front backside of that thing and told me that the brain is not developed at that

age and so --

PINSKY: It is true. And, Walt --

BARNETT: That seems dangerous.

PINSKY: -- You are now a therapist, right?

HEYER: I am not a therapist, but I have studied a lot about that and about the brain and it does not really develop until 18 or 24 years old.

PINSKY: And, what would your -- given that the medical community is endorsing treatments that include gender transformation, because it seems

to work, what would your alternative be?

HEYER: Well, I would say, you know, right now, if you looked at my life early on, you would say it was working. We are looking at these kids now

and we are saying, it is working, but what about the long-term effects? That is more of a concern to me. And because we really do not have a great

deal of history with this over a long period of time. So, I think it is a big concern.

PINSKY: I want to talk to our audience. What do you got? Yes, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Hi, I just feel the need to express that I come from a family -- well, a very large Latin family. So, we have a very

big LBGT community within my family.

And, I have an aunt who is well over 60 now and who was born a man, and tried to be married and you know, that was in a time when it really was not

accepted. They used to get arrested for being at clubs, and just for being who she was.

But, again, she is well over 60 now and completely happy. And, I think that is one of the great things of living in America, is that, you know,

beyond religion or people`s opinions, that we all get to be who we are.

PINSKY: Mike is Latin too. Maybe you can help him come out.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

CATHERWOOD: I honestly, at this point in my life, I do not know if it would be my family of origin that would be more upset, it would probably be

my wife.

PINSKY: I think, probably.

(LAUGHING)

BARNETT: Yes.

CATHERWOOD: But, you know, what I am curious about is -- you know, you mentioned the high rate of suicide. It is very important. We cannot

ignore that. But Dr. Drew, how many times have we talked to young men who are family members of, you know, their brother or their sister killed

themselves because the straight lifestyle or the non-trans lifestyle was imposed on them by their family.

PINSKY: I know. It is really hard to tell what is what -- I am no expert in this. I am trying to understand it, just like everybody else. Yes,

sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: I have several thoughts on this matter. First of all, we are all souls and when we go beyond this world, we are neither

male or female, black or white, I believe, and so it should not really matter. But in this world, I know a guy that was 6 feet tall, Brazilian,

muscular, he did massages --

CATHERWOOD: Where does he live?

(LAUGHING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: He is now female.

PINSKY: Oh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: And, he used to complain that he was so well endowed that women complained about him.

CATHERWOOD: Yes. Drew gets the same thing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: Now he has solved that problem.

[21:45:00] PINSKY: Yes. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: He has solved that problem. He is a woman now. But, I think without getting into all the details, I think he was

kind of confused and I think that -- I say to myself, with all that he had going on as a man, why would he, you know, he still has a man`s physique --

PINSKY: Why make the transition?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: Yes.

PINSKY: Zoey, help him with that.

TUR: Because it is not about the physique. It is about what is between your ears. It is about gender dysphoria. You fight gender dysphoria, but

you are going to lose.

And, with respect to Walt`s story is that there is approximately 30,000 post-operative transsexuals in the United States with a failure rate or a

rate of people who do not like their decision of maybe 1 to 3 percent.

That is always going to be there. But if you are looking at a suicide attempt rate at 42 percent, maybe as high as 69 percent, you are talking

about vast numbers. So, you are talking about a very small population. Walt maybe have seen 200 people that wanting the transition.

PINSKY: See, I am getting back to Caitlyn. I am worried about her, because she was in a fatal car accident. She had suicidality. The

hormones can screw you up in terms of your mood.

CATHERWOOD: And being at the center of a level of scrutiny that we -- none of us can imagine.

PINSKY: Can imagine. Can imagine.

ROBERTS: Absolutely.

TUR: She cannot go to Starbucks, because without the makeup team in IOM and you know, that sort of, you know, post-Photoshop work.

PINSKY: Yes.

TUR: So, it is just she has painted herself into a box within a box.

PINSKY: Yes, sir.

ROBERTS: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: Dr. Drew, first of all, three of my grandfathers were pastors and none of them have ever taught anything

against being homosexual, being gay, or being transgender. They have encompassed and enjoyed every single person that came to their church.

They have never been against it. And, I am not against it either, even though my preference is for girls. I do not see why anybody in their right

mind should be against in letting people be what they want to be.

That being said, my question is this. Why is it, though, that transgendered girls never actually bring themselves out until you are on

the date with them or until afterwards.

PINSKY: Did something happen to you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: Yes.

(LAUGHING)

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: We got to go. I cannot answer it now. We got to come back, after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:51:26] PINSKY: Time now for "Click Fix," where my guests share what is trending on their Instagram, Facebook and Twitter feeds. Emily, what do

you got?

ROBERTS: Miley Cyrus is doing us a good service, I think. And, she is putting on insta, which she started on Monday, which she has actually just

started on my Instagram feed too. And, what she is doing is making an effort to increase social acceptance of transgender and gender accepted

people.

PINSKY: And, was not she saying she is sort of -- her sexual orientation is sort of fluid or something? I heard that -- I thought I heard that.

ROBERTS: I do not know what is going on with Miley here right now. But I do think what she is doing is providing, you know, a good service for

people. And providing some dialogue and conversation about, you know, the skin you are in.

PINSKY: There you go. Vanessa?

BARNETT: That is beautiful. It really is. No, it really is beautiful. I like Miley Cyrus. Mine is a little bit on that line. It is a young trans

girl. She is only 7 years old, and her mother writes about her experience on the gender mom.

Her mother`s name is Marla Matt. Well, this young girl got a chance to meet Laverne Cox from "Orange is the New Black." everyone loves her. She

is transgender herself. And, it was a great experience.

PINSKY: She is transgender or plays a transgender character?

CATHERWOOD: Both.

BARNETT: No, she turns -- well, yes, both.

PINSKY: I got it.

BARNETT: And, the young girl, of course, does not watch the show, but her mom has told her about her and it was a very beautiful experience for her.

She met her. She told Laverne, that I am transgender too.

And, she goes down -- Laverne goes down, hugs her. They have this emotional moment. And she is like, "Remember, honey, transgernder is

beautiful," and it was really sweet.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

ROBERTS: That is beautiful.

PINSKY: Mike, do not spoil the moment. What do you got?

CATHERWOOD: No. No. Actually, this is another beautiful story. This is from king T.V. Brooklyn Buenaventura was voted prom queen at her high

school -- Renton High School in Washington State.

Buenaventura was born in a male body. Her birth name -- She quotes, "My birth name is actually Bruce like Bruce Jenner." Buenaventura said. "Just

like Bruce Jenner, Brooklyn is in the process of transitioning. So, I think, you know, to get the prom queen to be -- you are getting exposure on

a different level than you would from any other high school student.

ROBERTS: We have to be careful with this. Just what recently happened was somebody else who was transgender, -- was, is actually true because they

killed themselves due to all the attention after being prom king or queen.

PINSKY: Well, it is going to be interesting.

BARNETT: Wow!

PINSKY: That generation is going to own this phenomenon. And, they are going to inform us on how they feel about it, how they incorporate it into

their religious and spiritual belief.

And, as I said earlier, how to lead a good life, not the good life. My "Click Fix" after this.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:58:03] PINSKY: Time now for my "Click Fix." It involves the "Washington Post," who took a look at the Twitter comparisons of Caitlyn

Jenner and Rachel Dolezal. She, of course, is the woman who was born white but identifying herself as a black woman. Do not giggle, Vanessa.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Over and over this story, we will keep getting into it Someone who identified Rigatoni Red said, quote, "Do not understand the controversy

or the damage. Why should not she be able to identify; however, she wants, much like transgenders. Also, third Coast P.A., said, "Caitlyn was

pretending to become a man while participating in the olympics. She is a liar, just like Dolezal.

ROBERTS: Oh, my gosh.

PINSKY: So, the big issue the author had was with about integrity and authenticity, leading an authentic life. And, a lot of what is rolling

around today is about leading an authentic life is necessary. Lead a good life. When you got sober, you had to be honest and live a certain kind of

life, right?

CATHERWOOD: Yes.

PINSKY: That is critical for people. And, so when people are taking issue, I know you are not so worried about Rachel Dolezal being black, but

lying and fraud, is not that a problem?

BARNETT: I am more so mad today than I was before her interview aired. I thought her interview, she was all over the place, she did not clear

anything up, now I am more mad. So, no, she cannot be black anymore.

(LAUGHING)

ROBERTS: She was never black. She was orange. She was orange, come on!

BARNETT: But, no -- get what you are saying. To want to be something else other than what you are makes me wonder why you hate what you are so much.

ROBERTS: Because some people --

BARNETT: And especially when it comes to race. I understand transgender is different. I am not saying they are exactly the same, but why does

Rachel hate being white so much? I want to know what is --

PINSKY" Sometimes the brain -- sometimes it is psychological and sometimes it is a brain thing.

CATHERWOOD: Hey, how many people said, "How could a guy like robin Williams with so much money and fame want to kill himself."

ROBERTS: It was a brain thing.

PINSKY: It is right here.

ROBERTS: Yes. It is a brain thing.

PINSKY: It is a brain thing. That is exactly right. One of these things. This is what did it, in most of these cases. DVR us then you can watch us

anytime. Thank you audience. Thank you all for watching. We will see you next time.

[22:00:00] (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

END