Return to Transcripts main page


Charleston church shooting suspect arrested; Still no deal on Greece debt talks; Thailand confirms its first case of MERS; UNHCR reports 60 million people displaced worldwide; Beloved pastor among victims in U.S. church massacre

Aired June 18, 2015 - 15:00:00   ET


[15:00:11] PAULA NEWTON: Tonight under arrest the suspect in the shooting death of nine people at a church in South Carolina is now in custody.

We'll have the very latest details.

Also European leaders fail to reach a deal on Greece's debt as the country veers for default. Plus Pope Francis sends a letter to every living person

on earth calling on the world to take action over climate change.


NEWTON: Hello, I'm Paula Newton, live from CNN, London and this is The World Right Now.

The suspect in the U.S. church massacre is now in police custody but there are still so many unanswered questions about the attack that so shocked and

horrified the nation.


NEWTON: Now authorities say 21 year old Dylann Roof opened fire inside an African American church in South Carolina killing nine people. Witnesses

say the gunman announced he was there to "shoot black people." Mourners gathered today for a vigil to honor the victim.

As you can see there it was apparently a very jubilant event although a civil rights group said of course there is no greater coward than a

criminal who enters the house of God and slaughters innocent people.

Now as the community grieves investigators are learning more chilling details.

A massacre in a place of worship. Witnesses say a white gunman walked into the historic black church in Charleston Wednesday night during bible study

class and started shooting. Nine people were killed while the gunman is now in custody the community remains in shock.

GREG MULLEN, CHARLESTON POLICE CHIEF: This is a tragedy that no community should have to experience. It is senseless and it is - it us unfathomable

that somebody in today's society would walk into a church when people are having a prayer meeting and take their lives.

NEWTON: Charleston's Emmanuel AME Church is one of the oldest and largest African American congregations in the South. Police say the victims were

killed because they were black. And federal authorities are now investigating the shooting as a hate crime.

BARACK OBAMA, U.S. PRESIDENT: There's something particularly heartbreaking about a death happening in a place in which we seek solace and we seek

peace in a place of worship.

NEWTON: Police say among those killed was church pastor, Clementa Pinckney, who was in the state legislator. Now witnesses say Pinckney was

preaching when he was shot. His cousin tells CNN he's still in a state of disbelief over the death.

KENT WILLIAMS: Senator Pinckney first and foremost he was a God-fearing man. He was loved by everyone, never heard anyone say a harsh word about

him, he was a peacemaker.

NEWTON: 13 people including the gunman were inside the church at the time of the shooting and according to Police the gunman sat with Parishioners

for about an hour before carrying out his massacre. Charleston's NAACP President tells CNN one of three survivors says the gunman told her he was

letting her live so that she could tell people what happened there.

REV. JOHN RICHARD BRYANT: Vicious not only tragedy for Emmanuel and not only tragedy for the AMB Church in Charleston but it is tragedy for the


NEWTON: Police say the gunman is 21 year Dylann Roof, he was arrested Thursday following a traffic stop in North Carolina. Authorities are now

working to bring him back to Charleston to face charges.


NEWTON: Now we are anticipating learning some new details on the Charleston shooting very shortly.


NEWTON: The County Coroner's office is said to host a news conference this hour and that should be getting underway any moment. We will continue to

monitor that event and bring it to you live as soon as it gets underway there.


NEWTON: And now we go live to Washington and we go to our CNN Justice Correspondent, Evan Perez. And Evan, we just heard from President Obama

there but I couldn't help but him you know state the obvious. Look this church was a pillar of black history in the United States from Martin

Luther King to the fight against slavery, he was clearly incredibly rattled by this event.

When we try though and look at the investigation, what does it mean that there's going to be a federal investigation at this point and that it

underscores the fact that they want to prove this is a hate crime?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well Paula that's exactly right. And the issue here is that this suspect is now going to face nine murder

counts, murder charges from the state of South Carolina, and that is state that has the death penalty.


[15:05:13] PEREZ: So for our international audience, our audience around the world, you know this means that the federal investigation which is in

addition to and parallel to the state investigation simply adds another dimension of the legal issues that he will face. Now from the Federal

Government's standpoint there's a couple of things that are important. The fact that this suspect, Dylann Roof, apparently according to law

enforcement entered this church, sat there for an hour then stood up and told people that he was there to shoot black people. That is the key point

here that's going into this federal investigation - into civil rights investigation and whether or not he will be charged with federal hate


And under U.S. law, under the federal law, African Americans I know they're protected groups, groups that have traditionally been subjected to

discrimination are protected by hate crime laws.

NEWTON: And if we look further down the road why is it so important that they underscore this in the sense that this investigation go on in parallel

to that state investigation.

PEREZ: Well there's a couple of reasons. One of the things that's happened in in this country in the last few years is there's been a rise in

hate groups, right wing, white supremacist groups.


PEREZ: There's a few studies that have been done in recent years it seems to be a response to some of the demographic changes that are happening in

this country and the Federal Government, the FBI, the Justice Department have been trying to respond to that and that's one of the reasons why you

would try to bring these types of charges to send a message really. Even though he's already facing nine counts for murder that this is also a crime

that goes above and beyond every other murder charge that you could bring.


PEREZ: And so that's the message they're trying to send. And again this is something that they've spent a lot of time trying to focus on these

groups, to try to arrest people who are involved in them.


PEREZ: And it's very rare for you to have a case like this where someone attacks a church, people doing bible study in the middle of the course of

an evening. And so that's what they're trying to attack here.

NEWTON: Absolutely chilling. Our Evan Perez there in Washington, thank you for that.

Now the South Carolina's governor was overcome with emotion when talking about the massacre saying it broke the heart and soul of her state. And we

now want to bring attorney Bakari Sellers, a former state representative in South Carolina.

And first our condolences to you on what must be an incredibly difficult day there. I know you were just at the vigil, I watched some video from

that. I really got Goosebumps as they were singing. It seems thankfully like a joyous affair, a celebration if you will. But if you could tell our

viewers around the world how this incident has hit to the core of your community there.


BAKARI SELLERS: Well you know our community is angry, our community is sad, our community is hurting. I found out about Senator Pinckney last

night about midnight and it was like a gut punch and each time they mention a new name you think about the fact that their mothers and fathers, and

sisters, and daughters, and grandparents, and it just hurts. Especially for our friend Senator Pinckney. His children will go into father's day

weekend without their father. So it sucks to say the least.

NEWTON: Yes, truly heartbreaking. You know we just heard from our Evan Perez the fact that you know obviously the federal government wants to

prove that this was a hate crime. Unfortunately it seems that the alleged perpetrator in all this made it clear why he was in that church.


NEWTON: You know this debate has been going on so long in the United States and I know it's a bit early but in these moments do you turn to the

issue of gun control and how it could have helped people in that church to survive if laws in your state and other states were different?

SELLERS: Well I think first and foremost we - the bodies have just hit the ground less than 24 hours ago so I'm not sure I'm in the right frame to

come and give you a dissertation on gun control just yet. But what I will tell you is that there is a serious discussion about race that has to

happen in this country.


SELLERS: I will tell you that Senator Pinckney and those eight others are now heroes and she roes, they are martyrs who were assassinated. And they

go down in the books with (inaudible) and with Jessica Simpkins. They go down with (inaudible) and (inaudible), and Jimmy Lee Jackson, and Henry

Smith, and Samuel Hemming and Delano Middleton. The blood - the soil of our country is stained red with blood of many heroes and she roes and

unfortunately I'm just 30 years old but I'm weary and I'm tired of so much death around us.


[15:10:17] NEWTON: And at this point who could blame you. I want to pick up on something you said. You know the fact that this is clearly a

conversation about race in your country. President Obama went out of his way just a little while ago to frame this debate that way. Many people

will be tempted to ask you is this not the act of one deranged person, or do you feel it must be recorded as being much more than that?


SELLERS: Well it has to be reported as much more than that. You know to assume he's deranged is actually giving him some benefit of the doubt when

he definitely didn't give anybody the benefit last evening.

This is not an isolated incident by any stretch. We have had (inaudible) African American who were gunned down and slain just recently 20 miles away

from here. You had a police officer from the North Charleston Police Department shoot an unarmed Walter Scott and he took a stance and hunted

him like deer. So no, this is not an isolated incident.

But what I can tell you is that in South Carolina we've been knocked down before. That church family, Mother Emmanuel has been knocked down before.

But we're very prayerful and we will get up again. Senator Pinckney would probably say at this moment that joy cometh in the morning and right now is

a time for prayer, and grief, and anger, and all those emotions bottled up just to come out. And I hope the world is wrapping their arms around South

Carolina today.


NEWTON: Yes, and Mr. Sellers, I know you have a very hopeful and strong community around you and I hope all of you there takes strength in that

this evening.


NEWTON: And now we want to bring you more details on this very story. We now have word that the coroner, the county coroner is speaking about this.

We're going to take you there live now.

COUNTY CORONER, SOUTH CAROLINA: . in no specific order but I will just go through them and the first name is (Cynthia Hurd), she was a 54 year old

lady who was currently employed in Charleston County as the Branch Manager for St. Andrew's Regional Library and obviously we're all shattered by that

and she'll be missed deeply.

The next individual is (Susie Jackson), 87 years of age. Another individual (Ethel Lance), 70 years of age. (Rev. DePayne Middleton-

Doctor), 49 years of age and reverend Middleton-Doctor retired from Charleston County in 2005 where she was the director of the community

development block grant program.

The next individual is Honorable Reverend Clementa Pinckney, 41 years of age. As many of you know he served in South Carolina Senate currently.

The next individual is Tywanza Sanders, 26 years of age. The next is Rev. Daniel Simmons Sr, 74 years of age. Mr. Simmons was the only individual

who did not die at the church but was rather transported to MUSC where he later died while being in the operating room.

The next individual is Rev. Sharonda Singleton, 45 years of age. And the last name is Myra Thompson, 59 years of age.

Obviously you've been following the investigation, I'm sure you are aware the suspect has been arrested and charged and of course the judicial system

will move to the normal processes from here forward.

In terms of (inaudible) end of the investigation we will be continuing our investigation through many means to include autopsy. Each one of the

individuals will undergo an autopsy which is important in cases such as this, particularly when we're talking about criminal cases. And while

those autopsies are not expected to provide us any real new information it's important to the process.

It is based on our immediate observation on the report of what happened. It is obvious that these individuals all suffered gunshot wounds and as a

result, those individuals died.

I do not have at this time any ideas about how the memorial services and plans by the families will go. As you can imagine they're still very much

in shock and deep grief over these losses. I've spent a great deal of time with them throughout the night as well as my staff, and I have to tell you

they're the most gracious group of grieving individuals I've had, I hate to the say the pleasure to serve, but it's been a pleasure to deal with such

strong wonderful people in the face of such a tragedy.

[15:15:36] COUNTY CORONER: For each one of them as is customary following autopsy each individual family will chose a funeral home or whatever their

wishes are in terms of disposition and they will make the arrangements for their loved one per their family's decisions.

At this time I have no information about any plans for anything other than that. That may be forthcoming but certainly I don't have, I'm not

knowledgeable about that at this time.

Are there any simple questions I can answer? And I say simple because the investigation is very complex, it involves many, many agencies. Not only

does it involve city police department, the sheriff's office of course has been a supporting agency there but a very large portion of the

investigation is being conducted by SLED and the FBI's been present since last night and when I left them to come here all these entities will still

very much involved in the investigation.

NEWTON: And you were just looking there to a press conference given by the County Coroner there in South Carolina. Of course we are referring to that

absolutely tragic event in the church in Charleston where nine people were killed.

She obviously pointed out to the fact that there wouldn't much be added in terms of the evidence from the autopsies but that it was needed for the

legal process. Unfortunately many witnesses have said that the gunman reloaded several times and that will also go obviously be implicated in the

legal process that is to come. Notable here though she said that the grieving families who she's spent hours with right now were what she called

the most gracious group of grieving individuals that she's ever seen.

Again a community there still in such pain.


NEWTON: And we will have much more you right after the break.



NEWTON: Now what was billed as a last opportunity to find a solution to the Greek debt crisis has ended with no deal in sight. What now?


NEWTON: European officials and the International Monetary Fund met in Luxemburg today to try and find a solution that would avoid a Greek

default. But because there was no progress the President of the European Council announced a summit on Monday to again urgently discuss the

situation at the highest political level.

[15:20: 09] NEWTON: Now meantime, IMF Chief, Christine Lagarde, says there will be no grace period if Greece fails to make a nearly $2 billion

payment by June 30th.

CHRISTINE LAGARDE, MANAGING DIRECT IMF: We can only arrive at a resolution if there is a dialogue and for the moment we are short of the dialogue. So

the key emergency in my view is to restore the dialogue with adults in the room.


NEWTON: There was very blunt talk there and there's a lot at stake. Right now I am joined by Valdis Dombrovskis, he is the Vice-President of the

European Commission responsible for the Euro and social dialogue, and he joins me now live from Luxemburg.

I mean the expectations were set very low for this meeting and everybody met those low expectations, you were in the room. I mean what was the mood

in there, was there a glimmer of hope, a path to progress?

VALDIS DOMBROVSKIS, VICE-PRESIDENT EUROPEAN COMMISSION: Well first of all as room - as a mood in the room more or less reflected a complicated

situation we are in.


DOMBROVSKIS: We are approaching the deadline of 30th of June by which the current program is extended. It's only a few days left and currently there

is no agreement. Even though from a institutions point of view we had been quite flexible towards Greece's side reducing very substantially primary

surplus targets being able to replace some of the program measures with others of equal fiscal value if the Greek side has difficulties with the

program measures, but so far we have not heard credible proposals from the Greek side which would provide from a strategy how Greece is going to exit

from financial instability and how it's going to return to the economic growth.


NEWTON: Now the Greek finance minister just wrapped up a very lengthy press conference, he said exactly the opposite. He said that look we have

presented a concrete path to reform, he says that those proposals are sound and he is asking the Euro Group to listen to them and to at least meet them

half way? Is that true? Did you see anything in there that gave you any hope?

DOMBROVSKIS: Well once again as there are still quite substantial differences between what was a proposal of - joint proposals of three

institutions, European Commission, European Central Bank, and IMF, and what has been in Greek counter proposals and according to our assessment this

doesn't amount to a credible strategy how to exit the crisis, call to restore financial ability and to return to the economic growth.

So it's not only about discussing figures or meeting somehow halfway, it's really a need for clear strategy for financial stability and economic



NEWTON: He was also asked if he could discuss a Grexit, he said he won't even contemplate it. Is Europe contemplating Greece getting out of the

Euro right now?

DOMBROVSKIS: Well European Commission has been insisting since the very beginning that by far the best scenario for both Greece and Euro area is

that Greece successfully completes the current program. And that is a scenario we are still concentrating on. But now it's really very important

that Greece engages seriously in negotiations and as I said it's a clear political will also from the Greek side to successfully complete the

program because time is running extremely short.

NEWTON: OK, but you say time is running short, we have this other emergency meeting on Monday. We have literally had dozens of emergency

meetings at this point with Greece. Are the chances of default and after that Greece leaving the Eurozone better? Are the odds not better this

evening than they were even just last week?

DOMBROVSKIS: Well it's very clear that those are the kind of scenarios we should be avoiding and that's why today it was a very clear signal from the

euro group to the Greek authorities if it's a last time to engage seriously in negotiations for the interest of Greece, for the interest of Greek

economy and for the interest of the whole Euro area.

[15:25:17] NEWTON: I'll take that as a yes. The odds are better tonight that they will leave the Eurozone.


DOMBROVSKIS: Well there were no discussions of this kind today, and we still work on a scenario for a successful completion of the program.

Of course (inaudible) are certain issues, in a sense we are only a few days from the deadline of 30th June. So if there is an agreement in sight, if

there is a new impulse to the negotiations coming from emergency summit next week, there is likely to be a need also to extend as a current program

actually to allow time to conclude the negotiations and also to complete the review of the program.

But once again for this scenario to be successful, it's very important that all sides and first and foremost Greece stick with their commitments.

NEWTON: Right, OK, well that sounds to me like another lifeline for Greece, we will continue this drama next week. Thanks so much for your

time, I appreciate it.

Now to the Vatican where Pope Francis is putting the heat on climate change deniers in a new 180 page letter called an encyclical.

Now the Pontis says the earth is beginning to look like "an immense pile of filth" and he puts the blame for climate change directly on you and me.

And the relentless pursuit of profit.


RICHARD GREEN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Here are some words you might not expect to hear a pope say; carpooling, melting polar icecaps,

mercury poisoning, but Pope Francis hit them all in his highly anticipated paper, his Encyclical on the Environment.

A sweeping document that draws from science as well as the bible and which makes the Pope's position unmistakably clear. The earth, our home is

beginning to look more and more like an immense pile of filth.

Our house is going to ruin and that harms everyone, especially the poorest. Mine therefore is an appeal for responsibility, the Pope had said on the

eve of the document's release.

Francis is not anti-technology. Who can deny the beauty of an aircraft or a skyscraper he asks. But he does reject the idea that technology can

solve the environmental crises the world is facing. A crisis which he says is manmade or at least largely mankind's fault. We are presently witnesses

a disturbing warning mainly as a result of human activity he says.

This pope us acutely aware that the world watches him and he's taking advantage of it. He says his letter is addressed to every living person in

this planet. Will they all listen to him even when he preaches things as simple as turning down the heat in your house, the United Nations welcomed

it praising what it called his clarion call, but other voices are less impressed.

JEB BUSH, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I hope I'm not like going to get castigated for saying this by my - by my priest back home, but I don't

get economic policy from my bishops or my cardinals or from my pope.

GREEN: Francis though will likely be (unvowed). One thing humanity cannot keep doing he says delaying the important decisions and pretending that

nothing will happen.

Richard Greene, CNN, London.


NEWTON: Now the latest world news headlines are just ahead.


NEWTON: And we will have the latest as well from Charleston, South Carolina as that city comes to terms with a massacre inside the historic

church, stay with us.




[15:30:44] PAULA NEWTON, HOST, AND CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Welcome back. And this is what's happening in the world right now.

The suspect in the killing of nine people at a historic church in Charleston, South Carolina, has been arrested. Police arrested Dylann Roof

in North Carolina, 40 kilometers from Charleston. Now, the church's pastor was among the dead.

European officials and the International Monetary Fund have failed to strike a deal on Greece's bailout program at a meeting in Luxembourg. The

next step now - European Council President, Donald Tusk, has called for another round of talks on Monday, as Greece moves one step closer to


Thailand has confirmed its first case of Middle East Respiratory Syndrome. Now, the public health minister says the man was diagnosed after traveling

to Thailand from a Middle Eastern country. MERS was first identified in Saudi Arabia in 2012. Recently 23 people have died of the virus in South


Now, the city of Charleston is still reeling after a massacre in an historic African-American church. The suspect, 21-year-old Dylann Roof,

was arrested in the neighboring state of North Carolina. He was spotted at a checkpoint almost 400 kilometers from Charleston.

Now, this picture from social media shows Dylann wearing a jacket with what appears to be the flags of apartheid-era South African (ph) and nearby

Rhodesia - a supremacist group - white supremacist group. Now, Rhodesia is now Zimbabwe.

A law enforcement source says Roof's father had recently bought him a gun for his 21st birthday.

The mayor of Charleston had strong words for the suspect.


JOSEPH RILEY, MAYOR, CHARLESTON, SOUTH CAROLINA: That awful person - that terrible human being - who would go into a place of worship and people were

praying and kill them is now in custody where he will always remain.


NEWTON: Now, authorities are investigating the massacre as a hate crime, and we wanna get the very latest from Charleston now. Holly Firfer joins

us now live. I mean they had an incredible vigil there. It seems to be an uplifting affair.

Certainly a lot of people in that community need strength right now. But what is the depths (ph) of what is going on there right now? I mean the

atmosphere, given the race relations on the ground, already weren't good for months before this incident.


HOLLY FIRFER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, you're absolutely right, Paula. You know, at first - we've been all day - and early this morning, when we

got here, there were some people from the community that came out. They came to support the parishioners of the church. They came to support the

families of the victims. And, they seem to be bonding together.

At one point, a spontaneous prayer circle happened just behind us. And he people of Charleston wanted to tell us that - that they have hope that this

can be resolved. There was a massive manhunt on at the time for the suspect, but they said they were holding out hope that he would be caught

and that the city would heal.

But I do have to tell you that you can see some of that anger coming. We've had a few people come by and they've been screaming angrily - angrily

talking about race relations. You know, some people had signs that said, you know, young people need to get rid of their guns.

So, you can tell there's gonna be some anger bubbling up once, you know, the questions are asked and hopefully soon answered. But everybody's

appealing for calm. They're saying let justice do its work - let law enforcement do what they need to and embrace each other to help each other

get through this.

NEWTON: You know, there are two very complicated issues at work here. One is race relations and the other is gun control. In this community now, in

terms of how raw the emotions are, I mean were - was there any progress here to describe (ph) before this massacre in this church?

FIRFER: You don't know. And a lot of people have been talking about this. There have been a lot of local politicians here - some state senators. We

met the Minority Leader, Todd Rutherford, here, and he said it's something that they're gonna have to address. They're gonna have to talk about it

all together. It goes hand-in-hand.

Racial issues, gun control, even religious issues which, you know, there may some undertones as well. So they said this is something they have to

look at seriously. And one of the things that they were happy about - if happy is the right word - is that the Justice Department declared a

criminal investigation so that they can look at - into this as a hate crime so that this could be prosecuted federally, which would mean a lot longer

prison term if this - this man is convicted.


NEWTON: Yes, long legal process ahead for sure. Our Holly Firfer there on the ground in Charleston. Thanks for that.

Now President Obama reacted to the shootings in Charleston, calling the murders senseless. He also suggested more gun control was needed in the

wake of the tragedy.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I've had to make statements like this too many times. Communities like this have had to endure

tragedies like this too many times. We don't have all the facts, but we do know that, once again, innocent people were killed, in part, because

someone who wanted to inflict harm had no trouble getting their hands on a gun.

Now is the time for mourning and for healing. But let's be clear. At some point, we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this type of

mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries.


NEWTON: Now, we wanna get more on this very complicated issue of gun control. And I'm joined by Larry Pratt. He's the executive director of

Gun Owners of America. And he joins me now live from Washington.


You know, this gun control debate is very, very old right now. It has basically well-trodden territory for everyone. I wanna ask you - when you

heard about this event in Charleston - something that I'm sure disturbed you - did nothing change in the way you view gun control and the access

that young people have to very powerful firearms in the United States?

LARRY PRATT, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA: Well, what I suspected when I first heard it was that this was likely a gun-free zone.

And, as I looked into it, I found that in South Carolina the law leaves that call pretty much up to the pastor. And, of course, this was a very

vocal, anti-second amendment pastor, who voted anti-gun in the state legislature.

So, the - the dirt-bag (ph) that carried out this atrocity had probably chosen quite consciously a place where he would expect little immediate

resistance. He found a gun-free zone and took advantage of it. And, indeed, I was right - my initial suspicion.

We have been facilitating what these dirt-bags (ph)s do. All but one of our mass murders in the United States has occurred in a gun-free zone, so-


NEWTON: I don't understand what you mean about that. You're actually suggesting that, if his weapon wasn't concealed, this would have been


PRATT: No. I'm suggesting that if someone else had been legally able to be in possession of a gun at the scene of that crime, that he very likely

would have met resistance before as many people were killed. That's happened -

NEWTON: But, Mr. Pratt -

PRATT: - in places in the United States where armed citizens have been able to stop one of the mass murderers. It's happened fairly often -

NEWTON: Mr. Pratt, this was a place - this was a place of worship. Surely people can understand that in schools, that in churches, in those places a

gun-free zone is what it says it is - that you should be able to expect safety there without having to be armed to the -

PRATT: No, not at all. Not at all. Christian doctrine teaches that man is fallen - that he's sinful - and our natural tendency is to do bad

things. So, especially in a church, we ought to be alert to the fact that there might be a dirt-bag (ph) on the loose - maybe not a member. This guy

was certainly not a member of that church. But to try to assume that no defense is a good defense is a lousy theology.

NEWTON: Mr. Pratt, people in the community there who have been absolutely wounded by this tragedy heart and soul are saying, look, to say that this

was just one deranged individual does not do justice to the issue at hand in that community. Nothing has changed for you, in your opinion, after yet

another massacre in the United States?

PRATT: Well, apparently, nothing is changed for you to ask the question in that fashion because, surely, we're gonna come to the point where we

realize that we've got to do away with gun-free zones.

NEWTON: So, how do you envision - how would it have played out in that church if someone did have a gun?

PRATT: Well, the dirt-bag (ph) could have been - if someone had a gun - could have been immediately confronted. And, whether or not they actually

were able to shoot him, would have likely broken off his attack.

That's what happened in the Clackamas (ph), when a dirt-bag (ph) started what looked like it was gonna be - a mass murder. And a fellow who was

carrying a concealed weapon - I might add against the law - was able to stop it. They never prosecuted that guy. I wonder why.

And in Darby, Pennsylvania, at a psychiatric hospital, a guy came in and shot his doctor - killed a case worked. And the doctor was actually able -

again carrying illegally - was able to shoot the dirt-bag (ph) at the scene of the crime.

NEWTON: Now, Mr. Pratt, President Obama and others have pointed that, you know, the facts against you in terms of the amount of crime committed in

the United States when you compare it to other developed countries. I'll have to ask you again - you know, you mind hasn't been changed at all by

the very tragic events in Charleston? You think the gun laws in the United States, state-by-state, are just fine the way they are?

PRATT: The amount of crime in other countries is something that is not necessarily a good comparison for the argument you're trying to make. The

fact of the matter is that in England, which is supposedly is as close to a gun-free place you can get, they had a mass murder in North (ph) England

that took over a dozen people's lives.

Charlie Hebdo was in a very, very gun-free country legally. That took some 17 people's lives.

NEWTON: Those are very tragic incidents which have no bearing on the statistics, both in France and in Britain.

PRATT: And England is probably the -

NEWTON: And in Britain, as you know, the murder rate, especially by gun violence, is incredibly low to the United States.

PRATT: But, you know what? In Britain the murder rate is higher than the county in which Gun Owners of America is located right outside of

Washington, D.C., where we're just loaded with guns.

NEWTON: And we'll have to leave the debate right here for the moment. But I'm sure this is something we'll continue. Mr. Pratt, I appreciate you

coming on (INAUDIBLE) debate with me.

PRATT: Nice for you to have me here. Thank you.


NEWTON: Next on THE WORLD RIGHT NOW - forced from their homes and unlikely to return. The U.N. reveals how many refugees have been displaced by

conflicts around the globe. Stay with us.


[15:45:23] NEWTON: There are more refugees in the world today than ever previously recorded. I mean just startling numbers there. And more than

half are children. Now, a shocking statistic, and it illustrates our harsh, new global reality. Now, the new report from U.N. Refugee Agency

says 60 million people were forcibly displaced into 2014. Thirty-seven point five million people were displaced ten years ago.

One person out of every 122 people on the planet is either a refugee, or internally displaced or seeking asylum. In fact, the U.S. says the total

number of refugees equals the population of country. It would be the 24th largest in the world - bigger than South Africa.

Now, Syria has, of course, driven the most displacement. But people are fleeing conflicts across sub-Saharan African too. And then, of course,

there's Myanmar in Central Africa. Forty-two thousand five-hundred people were driven from their homes every day last year. So, for more on this

report, we are joined by Antonio Guterres. He is the United Nations high commissioner for refugees and joins us now live from the Turkish capital of

Ankara. I thank you for joining us.


You know, you had indicated that these were the kind of -


NEWTON: - numbers that you were expecting. But, can you tell people around the world the significance of those numbers? What does it say to

you about the state of our globe at this moment?

GUTERRES: I think that, basically, three things. First, behind each one of these numbers there is a tragic story. There is someone suffering.

There is an obligation for us all to support those suffering so much.

Second is the staggering acceleration of displacement in the world. In 2010, there were only 11,000 people displaced per day by conflicts. In

2012, 14,000 - sorry 2010 - 11,000; 2011 - 14,000; 2012 - 23,000 (ph); 2013 - 32, 000; and finally, 2014, as you said, 42,500 people displaced per day.

This is a world in which conflicts are multiplying and in which old conflicts are never solved. This is a world in which large regions are

today a mess, and in which impunity and unpredictability prevail.

And finally (INAUDIBLE) message - we no longer are able - we humanitarians - to clean up this mess - to pick up the pieces. We do not have the

resources to respond because, unfortunately, as needs grow exponentially, we will have in 2015 less financial resources than in 2014, which means

that more and more people that desperate (ph) fled their countries will be left without support.

NEWTON: And the point that you make is, of course, some of the conflicts have been going on for a while. I mean, the one that we've been seeing

most is Syria, and it certainly tops the list.

But also, in terms of where these displaced people and these refugees are coming from, it's still Syria - and then, perhaps shocking to some -

Afghanistan and then Somalia. It seems that there's quite a hangover effect from conflicts that started quite some time ago. I mean, we still

have Palestinian refugees around the world.

Mr. Guterres, I have to ask you - you seemed hopeful at times throughout all of these reports and all of this research that you've done. What do

you want the globe to do? What do you think world leaders should do?

GUTERRES: Well, what you've just said shows that we have a mega-crisis - Syria, Iraq - 50 (ph) million people displaced by these mega-crises. Also,

that we have a number of new crises that have started in the last one or two years - Central African Republic, South Sudan, Ukraine, now Yemen

again, Libya again.

But that old crisis never die (ph). You mentioned Afghanistan and Somalia. You mentioned the Palestinian refugee problem. These have been there for

decades. And there is no hope - no light (ph) at the end of the tunnel.

What this demonstrates at (ph) the world needs to recover its capacity to prevent and solve conflicts. And when I see situations like Syria in which

all the efforts to bring the parties together have failed, it's clear for me that those countries that have leverage on the parties (ph) of the

conflict - those countries that have provided weapons or funds to the parties (ph) of the conflict - that (ph) they have influence in the region

need to overcome their differences - their contradictions - the fact they have different religions or different positions on several issues.

But (INAUDIBLE) need to understand that now these situations which everybody is losing. This is becoming a global threat for peace and

security. And those countries that have a capacity to influence the actors in each conflict need to come together and put an end to this madness - to

this senseless violence.

NEWTON: But the problem is a lot of countries see it as a threat to them - to their peace and their posterity. We have Europe squabbling over who is

to pay for take migrants. We have Australia not even denying that they paid smugglers to take migrants back off of their shores.

The problems continue to mount. Do you see any opening here? I mean, there - does there need to be some type of a global task force where a

leader, you know, takes these issues up and tries to solve some of these problems?

GUTERRES: To be honest, my hope is that people will understand - that political leaders will understand - that is no longer only a humanitarian

question. This mess that I mentioned became not only a threat to regional stability in the Middle East - in Africa and different parts of the world -

but became a global threat to peace and security.

There are fighters coming from all over the world to fight in Syria or Iraq. And they will go back, and they will become a threat in their own


So either people get together and understand that this is not just other countries' problem - this is the problem of everybody and make an effort

both to address the humanitarian problems, giving more resources to support refugees ad receiving more refugees in their countries and, at the same

time, contributing to solve this (ph) conflicts.

Either this is done, or I believe everybody will be at risk. And everybody will pay a very heavy price in a world that is becoming, as I said, at

world at war.

NEWTON: Mr. Guterres, I appreciate your time and it's well noted that you have noticed before that after World War II, of course, the world came

together and that problems were solved. We will continue to follow your efforts in the weeks to come. Appreciate you time.


NEWTON: Now, this is THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. Coming up, we look back on the life of a South Carolina state senator and pastor tragically killed along

with eight others in today's church massacre. Stay with us.


[15:51:28] NEWTON: And welcome back. We wanna bring you more now on our top story - the shootings in Charleston, South Carolina. Nine people were

killed - one of them, Revered Clementa Pinckney. Now, he was regarded as a pillar of strength in his community. CNNs Ashleigh Banfield has more on

his life, cut so short in the Charleston massacre.


ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR, "LEGAL VIEW": Reverend Clementa Pinckney lost his life doing what he loved - praying, preaching, praising - a

devoted servant who connected with those who came to listen.


REVEREND CLEMANTA PINCKNEY, PASTOR AND CHURCH SHOOTING VICTIM: God, we welcome and invite you into this place - your house. We thank you for the

spirit that dwells here.


BANFIELD: According to his church's Web site, Pinckney answered the call to preach at the tender of just 13. He became a pastor at 18. And by 23,

another accomplishment in his young life - entering public service by becoming the youngest black person ever elected to the South Carolina state


Today state Senator Pinckney's legislative seat is covered by a black cloth to mark his passing.


WILL WHITSON, STATE HOUSE REPORTER, WIS NEWS: Senator Pinckney was a giant of a man who took his job seriously, not only as a state senator but as a




PINCKNEY: And into this process -


BANFIELD: Recently, state Senator Pinckney, a Democrat, stood with South Carolina civil rights leaders in calling for police to wear body cameras, a

response to the shooting of an unarmed black man, Walter Scott, by a white police officer.


PINCKNEY: Every person in South Carolina needs to know that they will have equal protection under the law and that a badge and a gun does not give

someone superiority or will trump their constitutionally protected privileges and rights in South Caroline.


BANFIELD: At just 41, Reverend Pinckney leaves behind a wife and two daughters, along with a community of friends and colleagues trying to come

to grips with his loss.

Ashley Benfield, CNN, New York.


NEWTON: (INAUDIBLE) such a pillar of a community there. And, by all indications, had taken anyone into his church who needed safe harbor.

We'll underscore again they were in the middle of a bible study when that massacre happened.

This has been THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. Thanks for watching. "Quest Means Business" is up next.