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Racist Manifesto Surfaces Online; New Possible Sighting of Escaped Killers; Clinton Addresses Church Shooting; The Road Ahead of Charleston; Interview with New York Mayor Bill de Blasio; Shooting Renews Calls to Remove Confederate Flags; Aired 1-2p ET

Aired June 20, 2015 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:01] BRIAN MORGENSTERN, GOP STRATEGIST: Fred, I just want to make one other comment which is that all politicians, not just Secretary Clinton will have to walk the balance between, you know, cynicism and having voters take away the impression that they're never letting a tragedy go to waste and advocating for their policies that might not be, you know, directly addressing this horrible event that occurred.

And I think, you know, straying too far away from the point which is that we're all together in condemning this racist, horrible act, I think is not the way to go and I'm just happy that politicians across the political spectrum have come together to express support and the people in this community have been symbols of the greatness of the American people and I think that is what I hope all voters will take away from the aftermath of this incident.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Brian Morgenstern and Nia-Malika Henderson, thank you so much to both of you. Appreciate it.

MORGENSTERN: Thank you.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

WHITFIELD: All right. Hello, again, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. I want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world now. We have breaking news on the Charleston church massacre.

A Web site featuring a racist manifesto mentions Charleston being chosen as the target of an attack as well as several images that appear to be Dylann Roof, the 21-year-old who shot dead nine people earlier this week at the historically black Charleston church, Mother Emanuel Church.

CNN has not been able to authenticate the Web site or its content including who wrote the manifesto and when.

We are now joined by CNN's Martin Savidge and CNN's Alina Machado.

So, Alina, let's begin with you about this manifesto and all that is being said on it. ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this manifesto seems to begin

with information about the authors' upbringing. Again we cannot independently confirm that Dylann Roof is actually the author of this manifesto. But I want to read to you how this starts off.

It says, "I was not raised in a racist home or environment. Living in the south almost every white person has a small amount of racial awareness simply because of the numbers of negroes in this part of the country. But it is superficial awareness. Me and white friends would sometimes watch things that would make us think that, quote, 'blacks were the real racist,' and other elementary thoughts like this. But there was no real understanding behind it."

Now the manifesto goes on the say and talk about the Trayvon Martin shooting, saying, quote, "The event that truly awakened me was the Trayvon Martin case. I read the WikiPedia article and right away I was unable to understand what the big deal was. I was -- it's obvious that Zimmerman was in the right. But more importantly this prompted me to type in the words 'black on white crime' into Google, and I have never been the same since that day."

The manifesto ends with the following. "I have no choice. I am not in the position to go into the ghetto and fight alone. I choose -- I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks-to-white in the country. We have no skin heads, no real KKK, no one doing anything by talking on the Internet. Well, someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world. And I guess that has to be me." Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: So, Alina, give us an idea of what is going into determining whether he was the author of this, whether it's someone else or some other group writing this in his name. What kind of investigation are taking place right now to learn a little bit more about where this comes from and from whom?

MACHADO: It's tough. That's going to be the challenge because he is in custody and it's difficult to really authenticate and figure out if he is in fact the author of this manifesto but we know that the Web site appears to have been launch in February, but it just surfaced online, on social media today -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And then, Martin, you were there in Charleston outside of Emanuel AME Church, unlikely and unclear whether many of the people who have filed behind you walking or in cars have learned anything about this, but give me an idea in your sense, given the people that you've spoken with, et cetera, how this information just might hit people.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, a couple of things. You're right, this news has not really struck people here as yet. But it is likely to spread very, very quickly. And here's the point that I think many people are going to focus upon. In one of the dialogues that's been going on is where did this young man, and he is a young man, 21 years of age, where did he get this kind of influence?

Where did this kind of patriot come from? Where did this idea of the segregation, this attitude that he has? Who taught him that? What this manifesto, if it truly is linked to him, might suggest? He said he was made self-aware. That somehow it was something that triggered traveling around the Internet, and on the Internet is where he got these ideas, twisted, mixed and clearly full of hate.

[13:05:14] So it seems that rather than maybe some group he was a part of, and that may still be a possibility, the influence here was the Internet. And there are many times we have heard this kind of influence. You can talk about how people concerned about the same thing regarding the terrorist group ISIS. This was a young person who went on the Internet and found things that he apparently agreed with no matter how wrong those things are.

So I think the public reaction here is going to be focused on that church, the grief and putting the arms around those who have lost their loved ones. They will not want to hear the words of a manifesto. They will not want to hear the excuses of a mass murderer -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. Martin Savidge, Alina Machado, thank you so much.

We're going to allow you all to do a little bit more reporting, too, and talking to people. We'll check back with you. Meantime, we're going to try and delve further into this with some other experts.

Former FBI special agent, Michael German, who is now a fellow with the Brennan Center for Justice, Liberty, and National Security Program, plus former FBI special agent Jonathan Gilliam joining us.

So, Michael, as we're hearing this, trying to digest this information, and again, it has not been verified nor can it be confirmed as yet as to whether this manifesto was indeed written by Dylann Roof. But when you hear those words about almost like some clarification being offered at the very top, you know, not being raised by a racist family, but then out of frustration and searching the Internet this may have provoked this kind of action?

What do you examine here when you hear these words?

MICHAEL GERMAN, BRENNAN CENTER FOR JUSTICE NYU SCHOOL OF LAW: Well, I mean, they're interesting to another piece of evidence to -- for investigators to explore if indeed it is proven to be written by Mr. Roof. But it sort of shows an exploration of different ideologies and I found it interesting that there was a weighing of particular ideologies, not fully accepting any particular thing but actually putting his own take on it.

So it certainly shows some interest in the topics and personal animosity that is being sort of supported by these ideologies rather than necessarily that he learned his racial hatred from the Internet.

WHITFIELD: And you know, this really does make it very difficult, doesn't it, both Michael and Jonathan, because everyone wants to have a better understanding of things. Not an excuse for because this is a heinous act, it's horrific. Hurt an awful lot of people. But then when you hear of this manifesto possibly written by this gunman, there is some curiosity into where this sentiment comes from.

So, Jonathan, when information like this, you know, rises to the top or becomes investigated, what is it that investigators are looking for to see if indeed this is a legitimate, you know, manifesto, meaning legitimate written by this gunman. What may have provoked, who may have provoked. What is being examined?

JONATHAN GILLIAM, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Well, as Michael could tell you probably one of the first things that the bureau did in this environment when they came into this after this incident happened was they instantly started doing database scrubs. They started querying sources. And they started looking in to see if this individual, Mr. Roof, had any connections to white supremacy groups. And whether I don't -- you know, it's clear, it's starting to become clear that they didn't find those connections expect through the ideology.

Now I stand by my comments that I do believe that this individual has some psychopathic tendencies. But I will tell you, I do feel as though we need to start looking at this, the same way we would look at ISIS. If somebody is inspired by ISIS, and they become an operative for ISIS, just through the amount of information that's on the Internet, we would deem them a terrorist. And I do believe in this case, although it's not going to help in the end for the prosecution, it can help for a long term investigations if we look at this individual, how he was basically radicalized, where did he get his information, and follow that terroristic trail the same we would with fundamental Islam.

WHITFIELD: So we're also seeing some disturbing new pictures of Dylann Roof from this Web site showing him burning an American flag, standing on an American flag.

Michael, we're seeing this together right now for the very first time. What are these images say to you, and in concert with this alleged manifesto, and what we understand police to have said what he said when he was apprehended.

[13:10:09] GERMAN: So if you look at white supremacists and anti- government militia rhetoric they often talk about the Constitution and consider themselves patriots. But when you look at what they actually do, they're very against a constitution you and I would recognize. You know, they look at the Constitution as it was originally written which authorized slavery. So they're -- when they talk about it, it's not in the manner that we would. So what I saw when I was undercover within these groups it was that there was a lot of anti-American symbolism like burning flags, and other sorts of desecration of what most Americans would view as important symbols for our country.

WHITFIELD: And then -- and, Jonathan, we're talking about three days now since that massacre and of course lots of questions are still being asked, some questions are being answered. But what do you think about the timing now of that pictures would be made available, now that this Web site and this manifesto possibly written by him or by someone, would come to everyone's attention now? Does the timing say anything in particular to you? GILLIAM: Well, I absolutely think it does. And I'm not equating

politicians to this insane person, this racist, but I will tell you, there's going to be groups on both sides of this fight and this incident that are going to take opportunities to put their political views out there. And that's what you see happening whether it'd be a political speech or whether it'd be these hate groups putting their information out there. These are people that want to further their political views and they're using this tragic racial incident to further those things. So it's no surprise that these things are out there.

And I'll just tell you this, Fred. Anybody that's an enemy of this country is an enemy of mine. And I don't care -- you know, it's -- being American to question the government is -- that's fine. That's American. But going out and stomping on the flag and then doing incidents like this to try to cause a civil war and whether or not this guy was crazy, there's groups out there like this, they are an enemy of the state, they're a national security threat, just like anybody who's coming in from the Middle East to try to destroy us.

WHITFIELD: Jonathan Gilliam, Michael German, thank you so much.

GERMAN: Thank you.

GILLIAM: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: All right. Coming up, there may have been new sightings of those new escaped killers from a prison in upstate New York. But why is the information a week old? And how much might this still help in the manhunt?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:15:55] WHITFIELD: All right. We have breaking news in the two- week-old search for a couple of escaped killers. They broke out of a prison in upstate New York. The Clinton Correctional Facility has now placed a corrections officer on the leave as part of the ongoing investigation but it will not identify that officer or why he has been put -- he or she has been put on leave.

Prison worker Joyce Mitchell is in jail, charged in connection with the two escapees -- the two inmates escape, rather, and then there's this. New York state police are investigating two new possible sightings of the convicts, Richard Matt and David Sweat, near the New York-Pennsylvania border.

Jonathan Gilliam, a former FBI special agent and police officer joining me again from New York.

All right, so, Jonathan, prison is a very closed environment. So how likely is it that this corrections officer either helped in the escape or in some ways facilitated how this happened?

GILLIAM: Well, I think the -- it's going to -- the information is going to unfold about what his part was in this, if there was one. But I have been saying all along, Fred, that there has to have been some other help besides this woman just getting them some tools or flashlights and stuff in there. Especially -- I started seeing some reports where they're showing the distance that these individuals had to travel through these tunnels, through these pipes.

It's so elaborate the way that they got out, I just cannot help but think that they had to have some type of inside help and possibly help on the outside.

WHITFIELD: And, Jonathan, you and I are both saying he only because our Sara Ganim had reported earlier that it -- that through her reporting it was believed that that corrections officer is a he. However, the Clinton facility will not confirm whether it's a he or a she so just we're offering that clarify. So these two, you know, escapees, they're on the U.S. Marshals' list of 15 most wanted now.

How does that impact this search in any way? Does it offer an additional incentive for people. We already know that $100,000 reward is being offered for the arrest and apprehension of these two. But why does this make a difference now?

GILLIAM: Well, it always makes a difference in awareness, in getting the word out. You know, these lists are very important because the Marshals, just like the FBI's 10 most wanted list, they can put these up on a Web site, they can pump these pictures out of these two individuals and get the awareness out. And also sometimes, and I think a lot of times when you look at these specific individuals and their danger, the imminent danger may be a little bit higher. They may get more funds or more resources allocated to the search because they officially put them to this list.

WHITFIELD: And is it your feeling that these two would still be together?

GILLIAM: You know, anything is possible in this case. And this is the most incredible thing I have seen in many, many years from the breakdown of the prison system to allow this to happen. I keep harping on the green jumpsuits. It's like they gave them camouflaged before they even went out. And then, you know, there's been -- this search has been so concentrated on the small area that --

WHITFIELD: It's a 600-mile area, right?

GILLIAM: It's a 600-mile area but there's only certain places that they can search because it's that dense and they move slowly through these areas, so they're very dependent on leads. And it's just a shame that these particular leads didn't get to them quicker. And if they did get to them quicker, and they didn't get searched or it got passed over, which sometimes happens with task force. The leads don't get cleared or they don't get looked at quick enough. These are things they have to pay attention to.

WHITFIELD: And I guess people are really forgetting, too, that they had a head start. Remember it was many, many hours before anyone even discovered that they were missing. And that certainly is impacting things, too. GILLIAM: And if they can get on a train track or if they can get on a

power line, forget about losing the south, they've cleared out hundreds of miles, thousands of miles for these power lines. If they can get on those or a train track, it's just good as being on a road, it's even better because there's nobody watching them.

WHITFIELD: Right. And then reportedly there is going to be a stepped up effort now to look at more of the railroad tracks and the less travelled roads and railways and paths.

[13:20:08] All right. Thanks so much. Jonathan Gilliam, appreciate it.

GILLIAM: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: All right. Up next, Hillary Clinton addressing the Charleston church shooting just moments ago while in San Francisco. Straight ahead, more details on what she is saying about race, guns and the tragic massacre overall.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton talked a short time ago about race and gun control in the wake of the Charleston church massacre. She spoke in San Francisco at the U.S. Conference of the Mayors.

Joining me right now is CNN national correspondent Sunlen Serfaty joining us from Palm Springs, California.

So, Sunlen, Mrs. Clinton really took a stab at some very tough topics, gun control, race and how Charleston moves on.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Fred. And she spoke very bluntly and very emotionally about what the Charleston shootings highlight about the state of race in America. She says the hard truth is that race remains a deep fault line -- those were her words -- in the country. And she characterized the problem as coming out in small, subtle ways in America, giving the example of a cruel joke that goes unchallenged or the sight of a young man in a hoody, she says, that still evoke a twinge of fear in many.

Here's Hillary Clinton in San Francisco moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[13:25:13] HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Bodies are once again being carried out of a black church. Once again racist rhetoric has metastasized into racist violence.

Now it's tempting. It is tempting to dismiss a tragedy like this as an isolated incident. To believe that in today's America bigotry is largely behind us, that institutionalized racism no longer exists, but despite our best efforts and our highest hopes, America's long struggle with race is far from finished.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: And Clinton went on to call for more gun control in America while noting that the politics over this issue have been poisoned in the past. And certainly that debate is being reinvigorated on the campaign trail. Many Republicans stopping short of calling on Congress to do something, skeptical that the government is the solution to this problem.

Here's Rick Perry, Republican candidate, in Washington today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICK PERRY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think discussions are good things. And this is a deliberate hate crime. And I don't -- I think it is healthy for us as a country to have conversations and defend our positions whatever they may be, so I do have an issue that the kneejerk from the left is always we're going take people's guns away from them, when in fact there may be a host of contributing factors here.

But I think we must look at this and understand and respect that this was a clear hate crime that was committed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: And Perry meanwhile is in a little bit of hot water for comments he made yesterday when he called the Charleston shooting an accident. Many coming down hard on that word he used "accident" to describe these shootings. His campaign saying that he misspoke and he meant, Fred, to use the word "incident" not accident -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: OK. And then meantime, while in San Francisco, Mrs. Clinton, you know, did make reference, too, of President Obama saying that she agreed with him when he said we must tackle this challenge, talking about guns with urgency and conviction.

You're traveling with the president. He's on a four-day swing through California. Is he expected to address Charleston, the matter of guns, the matter of race again?

SERFATY: Well, he -- we've seen President Obama really take pains to mention the situation in Charleston and the tragic shootings at every stop he's made here on his West Coast swing, multiple times in San Francisco yesterday. He will travel here later this morning and land in Palm Springs shortly for two days of R and R. He is golfing this weekend. The White House says at this time there is no plans for the president to comment more.

But he's been very outspoken in recent days and continues to be updated about the situation, calling for more gun control but at the same time, Fred, really noting the political realities. A Republican- controlled Congress might be hard to get any movement, any legislation done any time soon -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right. Sunlen Serfaty in Palm Spring, thank you so much. All right. Coming up from heartbreak to healing. The city of

Charleston banning together to try to find comfort in prayer. Up next we'll talk about the road ahead for a place called the Holy City.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:30:33] WHITFIELD: All right. Mortgage rates dropped this week. Take a look.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: We have breaking news on the Charleston church massacre. A Web site featuring a racist manifesto mentions Charleston being chosen as the target of an attack and features several images that appear to be Dylann Roof, the 21-year-old who shot dead nine people earlier this week at historically black church in Charleston, the Emanuel AME.

CNN has not been able to authenticate the Web site or its contents including who wrote the manifesto and when. The Web site appears to have launched in February of this year but surfaced on Twitter and other social media today.

And it begins by saying this, quote, "I was not raised in a racist home or environment. Living in the south almost every white person has a small amount of racial awareness. In this part of the country but it was a -- it is a superficial awareness. Me and white friends would sometimes would watch things that would make us think that blacks were the real racists and other elementary thoughts like this but there was no real understanding behind it."

The author then goes on for several paragraphs talking why he dislikes various races and he ends it by explaining why he killed nine people at that Charleston church. And it reads, quote, "I have no choice. I am not in the position to alone go into the ghetto and fight. I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks-to-whites in the country. We have no skinheads, no real KKK. No one doing anything but talking on the Internet. Well, someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world and I guess that has to be me," end quote.

Again, CNN has not been able to authenticate this site and we'll have more on this later on next hour.

All right. For many in Charleston this week has felt unbearable. And that's why so many people were amazed when they heard the shooting victims' families express mercy towards the gunman in court yesterday.

Earlier today I spoke with two members of the Emanuel AME Church and asked them how they're cooping.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FELICIA BREELAND, MEMBER, EMANUEL AFRICAN METHODISTS EPISCOPAL CHURCH: It hurts everybody. It hurt me. I'm still shocked. It's unbelievable what happened. FLOYD BREELAND, MEMBER, EMANUEL AFRICAN METHODIST EPISCOPAL CHURCH:

Our doors of the church were opened every Sunday. I've been a member now for 56 years. And I just come every Sunday and we have visitors every Sunday, regardless to the race, regardless of age. This is something that the families is going through and we are here with you to grieve with the family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Joining me right now, Bakari Sellers. He is a former member of the South Carolina House of Representatives.

Thanks so much for being with us. Good to see you.

BAKARI SELLERS, FORMER MEMBER OF THE SOUTH CAROLINA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: Thank you for having me. Thank you so much.

WHITFIELD: So the Charleston -- the Charleston community and family, you know, are hurting terribly. And now you hear of this so called manifesto, again CNN has not been able to authenticate it. What is the news of that, the discussion of that even mean to you right now?

SELLERS: Well, it's another gut punch, Mrs. Whitfield. Wednesday night when we were here and the murmurs were around that I may have lost my good friend, Senator Clementa Pinckney. It was devastation. And then they began to release the names, and with each name they released it was as if a bit more of your soul was crushed.

And now we're learning that this man was more than disturbed, he was just filled with racist hate. And it's going to be a unique question that we all have to answer and look at ourselves in the mirror and wonder how can someone who was 21 years old, born in the 1990s have more hate than Bull Connor. That's troublesome.

But today, instead of worrying about anything that he may have written, I'm going sit back and think about my good friend, Clementa Pinckney. We're going to uplift all nine of these families. Hopefully tomorrow they will be worshipping in this church behind me. But if not, those nine angles are going to be singing praise from wherever we're worshiping in the morning in the south. I'm blessed and fortunate to have an opportunity to know them and we look forward to healing together.

WHITFIELD: And I know as a good friend of Mr. Pinckney and then of possibly a good friend of former Representative Breeland who I spoke with earlier today. It was his sound bite and that of his wife that we heard just moments ago when I spoke with them. And they talked about how they wish and hope that they could be worshipping in the AME sanctuary tomorrow, Emanuel -- Mother Emanuel tomorrow. But even if they don't tomorrow, there will be a place in which everyone can come together.

But what an incredible display there in Charleston of unity. What is the nation witnessing as this city hurt and as it tries to heal?

SELLERS: Well, unfortunately South Carolina is used to pain. Just a month ago we buried Walter Scott who was gunned down like a deer. An unarmed African-American male. We go all the way back to February 8th, 1968 when three young men were killed and another 27 were wounded including my father in what was known as the Orangeburg Massacre, and were gunned down by South Carolina state troopers.

So we're used to this type of pain. But we're also used to standing up and standing together. I saw a young white girl walk by me with a portrait of Jesus that she was going to lay in front of the church. I see black, white, Hispanic, Asian American. It doesn't really matter. Coming together. And today we're coming together and for the rest of this period we're coming together for a singular cause in a common good because this domestic terrorist -- we must call him what he is.

This racist, domestic terrorist hoped to strike fear in the hearts of many, and many African-Anericans throughout this city, this state and this country, I mean, we dare not be afraid. We dare not let him win. And I hope he's somewhere in his cell watching all of this unity on repeat, because it's refreshing to see this victory, those nine angles will be very happy that we'll together singing a joyous hymn of phrase together as one.

WHITFIELD: Bakari Sellers, thank you so much for your time.

SELLERS: Thank you for having me and God bless you all.

WHITFIELD: Thank you.

As Charleston begins this healing process we're also learning more about the man who confessed to these shootings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, he was just saying he wanted segregation. He wanted a race war. He wanted to be white with white and black with black.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: A friend of the Charleston shooter talking to CNN next.

[13:39:49]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right. It's a day of prayer and solidarity across the country as so many people come together to show support for those members of the Emanuel AME Church in Charleston days after that massacre.

In New York, hundreds of miles north of Charleston, people are gathering at the Greater Allen AME Church. Also among them, New York mayor, Bill de Blasio.

Our Cristina Alesci is there joining us from Queens.

Christina, what has the day been like there? CRISTINA ALESCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The day has definitely been one

of peaceful, mournful but yet uplifting rhetoric from both politicians and church leaders here, really evoking the history of the church that has been through many struggles. This is definitely one of its biggest. And here just moments ago Mayor Bill de Blasio wrapped up his public remarks and he's here with us now.

Thank you for making time for CNN.

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D), NEW YORK: It's good to be with you. I'm sorry it's such a tough day for everyone, though.

ALESCI: One thing that I'm curious about is, what have you heard from average New Yorkers? What's been their reaction? Obviously I've been talking to people out here all day. But what's been their reaction to this tragedy?

DE BLASIO: That we have to say exactly what it is. It was an act of domestic terrorism and it was an act of terrorism based on racism. That's the reality. And people in this city are -- you know, we are blunt people in New York City. We think it's time to have a blunt conversation. This was about the availability of guns. This was about mental health problems because so many times we've seen these horrifying massacres.

This one happened to take on a terroristic dimension because it was directed at black people at a black church by a man who clearly had racist intentions. We've got to come to grips with these issues and not sweep them under the rug. And people are feeling purposeful. They are angry, they are mournful but they're also purposeful that we're going to take this moment and change our country.

[13:45:14] ALESCI: So do you feel like this was a one-off or is this a symptom of something much uglier -- a much uglier trend happening in America?

DE BLASIO: I think the act may have been singular but it is clearly symptomatic of the pervasive racism we're still dealing with in this country, the fact that we have not had eradicated the strain of racism. It is clearly indicative of the gun problem, the fact that this individual, despite his obvious biases that could lead him to violence, despite what I believe are probably profound mental health problems, had easy access to a gun. And we've seen that time and time again.

I say to people we can all list the campus massacres and other horrible instances of gun violence. How on earth has this nation not addressed it? So after Newton, we thought we were going to see some solutions. We didn't see them from Washington. People are going to demand it now more than ever because this is the intersection of racism, guns, and mental health. And we've got to deal with it.

ALESCI: You're calling on Washington, but clearly you can do something here in New York on greater gun control. What are the plans on that front? DE BLASIO: Our state has made some steps forward, but what we do on

the ground is with our policing power and our close relationship with the community. We are every day trying to bring community and police closer. And one of the reasons is so that we can get after guns. In every community there are community members who can help the police to find where those guns are.

It's not just about aggressive policing, it's about deepening that partnership with the community. That's one piece of the solution. But without stronger gun laws, we're only going to get so far because every time you turn around the city and there's an act of gun violence, that gun came from a state where it was just easy, just plain easy to get a gun and send it up the East Coast and New York City. We need national legislation to change this.

ALESCI: What does this incident do to your mindset on any policy here? Do you think that we need greater security at AME Churches? Does it change anything for you?

DE BLASIO: I think it says several things. One, we have to have a blunt national discussion about racism. It is sadly alive and well. We've got to deal with it. We have seen so many types of attacks, biased attacks in this country to this day. We've got to have a different approach to changing our culture. We've shown before that we can move the American culture in the direction of tolerance and inclusion. We've got to do it again.

Second, it tells us we've got to with every tool we have address the gun problem. Third, it tells us we've got to now get the stigma of mental health to stop being a blocked to policy change. In this city, we've said very clearly, we're going to revamp our entire approach to mental health. Not just because it's the right and humane thing, but because so many acts of violence in this city, even in recent months have been committed by people with long mental health histories, with long problems -- long history of problems with mental health that went unaddressed because the services weren't there or the recognition of the problem was missed.

And so we are reorienting our entire approach to mental health because you can't separate most instances the mental health problem from the act of violence.

ALESCI: All right. Mayor Bill de Blasio, thank you so much.

DE BLASIO: Thank you.

ALESCI: Fredricka, back to you.

WHITFIELD: All right, Cristina Alesci and Mayor, thank you so much for that.

So this massacre this Charleston has renewed demands to take down the Confederate flags on the ground of the South Carolina state capitol. Straight ahead the arguments persists. Is this a symbol of hate or heritage?

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[13:52:44] WHITFIELD: The Confederate Battle flag still flies on the grounds of the state capitol in Columbia, South Carolina. Many see it as a symbol of racism. In the wake of the latest mass shootings, some have renewed a call to have the flag removed. But the issue is very controversial because not everyone thinks the flag represents something sinister.

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SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: This is part of who we are. The flag represents to some people a civil war and that was the symbol of one side. To others, it's a racist symbol. It's been used by people as -- been used in a racist way.

REV. CORNELL WILLIAMS BROOKS, NAACP PRESIDENT AND CEO: Some will assert that the Confederate flag is merely a symbol of the years gone by. A symbol of heritage and not hate. But where we see that symbol lifted up as an emblem of hate, as a tool of hate, as an inspiration for hate, as an inspiration for violence, that symbol has to come down, that symbol must be removed from our state capitol.

BEN JONES (D), FORMER CONGRESSMAN FROM GEORGIA: It's a harmless thing. I've seen it on bags of rice and on travel posters and things like that. It represents a spirit. And there are those, obviously, hate groups and white supremacists like these idiots, who have maligned it and desecrated it by using as a hateful symbol.

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WHITFIELD: All right. Joining me right now is David Goldfield, a professor of history at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte.

All right. Good to see you, Professor.

DAVID GOLDFIELD, PROFESSOR OF HISTORY, UNC CHARLOTTE: Good to see you, too, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Now this argument, this debate has been going on for a very long time, but does it feel different now particularly after this massacre at this church in Charleston? You have the White House, which is now saying it's time for the flag to come down. You even have former presidential candidate Mitt Romney on Twitter today saying it is time that that flag comes down on the grounds of the state capitol.

What is different or how might what happened in Charleston reshape the debate or argument about this flag?

GOLDFIELD: This might be a game changer in terms of the flag. I'm not very optimistic that it's going to come down.

[13:55:07] The -- if you look at the history, Fredricka, one of the things that strikes you is right from the beginning, in 1862, when the Confederate Congress debated what banner they would carry into the battlefield, the connection with white supremacy and a white man's government was very clear. In fact, the first iteration of the Confederate Battle flag was the so-called stainless banner. And that was mostly white.

And the connection with white supremacy was very clear from the delegates' comments. However, as you know, carrying a white flag on to a battlefield is not such a good idea since it's also a symbol of surrender. So hence we got this latest iteration, the Confederate Battle flag.

In the 1890s, when the -- when the Southern Congress decided to reorient their state flags, it was a spate of lynchings, the disenfranchisement, also racial segregation by law. It was a bitter time of race relations. States like Florida and Alabama redesigned their state flags to mimic the Confederate Battle flag. And they made those flags on white borders, again, connecting very clearly white supremacy with their state flags.

In 1956 at the beginning of the Civil Rights Movement, the state of Georgia redesigned its state flag to actually include the Confederate Battle flag. So it's not a flag that has been appropriated only by weirdoes, extremists, the Ku Klux Klan. It's a battle flag that has been appropriated by the leaders of the South, the political and economic leaders to trumpet --

WHITFIELD: So --

GOLDFIELD: To underscore white supremacy.

WHITFIELD: So the latest or one of the latest arguments right there in the state capitol in South Carolina about that flag, it was the year 2000, many people remember, you know, the rallies, the many people who came to the state capitol grounds there, the legislature was to vote on it. I was there covering it. And the message was or the compromise was, while take it off the dome, it still remained on capitol grounds.

And what's your interpretation of what that move meant? Because in -- in some circles, there was a conclusion that there was some appeasement or addressing of the concerns, but the same time, it was still upholding another side of the argument and its relevancy of why it should remain.

GOLDFIELD: I was in Columbia for a short time and to tell you the truth, I walked by the state capitol on numerous occasions and my eyes usually were straight ahead. They weren't up in the air looking at domes or tops of buildings. So the Confederate Battle flag was -- I knew it was there, but it wasn't something I saw every day. But now if you walk by the state capitol grounds, it's right in your face. So in many respects, some people call this a compromise.

I think the folks who wanted to display the confederate battle flag actually won out on this in a very public place. I have no problems with the Confederate Battle flag. It's part of our history. And it is part of our heritage as southerners. But it belongs in a museum, not in public view. WHITFIELD: All right, University of North Carolina-Charlotte

professor, David Goldfield, thank you so much our time. Appreciate it.

GOLDFIELD: Thank you, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. The next hour of the CNN NEWSROOM begins right after this.

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