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South Carolina Church to Reopen for Sunday Services after Shooting; Website and Manifesto Possibly Linked to South Carolina Church Gunman; FBI Director Denies South Carolina Church Shooting Terrorist Act; Security Experts Discusses Security Measures for Churches; Family and Friends of Church Shooting Victims Express Forgiveness to Gunman; Two Escaped New York Prisoners Remain at Large; Prisoner in New Orleans Kills Prison Officer and Escapes. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired June 20, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:00:29] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN breaking news.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello again, everyone, and thank you so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. This breaking news on the Charleston church massacre, a website featuring a racist manifesto mentions Charleston being chosen as the target of an attack as well as several images that appear to be that of Dylann Roof, the 21-year-old who admits to shooting dead nine people at historically black Charleston church Emanuel AME.

One of the photos shows Dylann Roof burning an American flag. Then he is pictured standing on the American flag, and in several other images, Roof appears to be holding a Confederate flag right there. CNN has not been able to authenticate the website or its contents, including the author of the manifesto, but the writings provide an inside glimpse, perhaps, into the mind of the author.

For more, I'm joined by CNN's Martin Savidge and CNN's Alina Machado. So Alina, let me begin with you and this manifesto, how it came to anyone's attention and how it's being authenticated or even verified to see if it indeed is connected to the gunman, the confessed gunman.

ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Fredricka, we know that according to a law enforcement official source, this manifesto is something that the FBI is taking a look at, and it surfaced online today, at least that's when we saw it on social media and talk about it.

I want to read you part of it, because it begins with talk about the author's upbringing. And it says, quote, "I was not raised in a racist home or environment. Living in the south, almost every white person has a small amount of racial awareness simply because of the number of negroes in this part of the country. But it is a superficial awareness. Me and white friends would sometimes watch things that would make us think that blacks were the real racists and other elementary thoughts like this, but there was no real understanding behind it." The site also refers to the Trayvon Martin shooting, and it says, in

part, "The event that truly awakened me was the Trayvon Martin case. I read the Wikipedia article right away. I was unable to understand what the big deal was. It was obvious that Zimmerman was in the right, but, more importantly, this prompted me to type in the words "black on white crime" into Google, and I have never been the same since that day."

And this apparent manifesto ends by saying, "I have no choice. I am not in the position to alone go into the ghetto and fight. I chose Charleston because it is the most historic city in my state and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks to whites in the country. We have no skinheads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the Internet. Well, someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me."

Now, it's worth noting that most of this apparent manifesto is full of hate. And it makes very inflammatory and disturbing comments not just about blacks, but about other minorities. We are not going to be reporting on that. But if, in fact, Dylann Roof was the author of this manifesto, the parts that we are addressing do shed some insight into what may have been the turning point for him, and, also, Fredricka, why he may have chosen this city as the target of his attack.

WHITFIELD: And, again, it has not been verified. It has not been authenticated as having a direct link, even though it alleges to be authored by Dylann Roof. And these photographs that we showed earlier, Alina, they are on the same website as though to infer that there is a connection between the written word and the pictures?

MACHADO: They are on the same website. There are a number of photographs that show Dylann Roof doing a number of things on top of spitting on the American flag, also burning the American flag, waving a Confederate flag. Those are photographs that are on this website showing Dylann Roof. But, again, we have not been able to authenticate the website, and we know that the FBI is still working to see if, in fact, Dylann Roof authored this manifesto.

WHITFIELD: All right, and Martin, you too are right outside the Emanuel AME church where people are paying their respects to the nine people killed. Last we spoke people there had not communicated to you their reaction to this so-called manifesto. Since that time, have people learned about this report and do they have any reaction? It certainly would seem like it's salt in the wound.

[14:05:12] MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we really have not heard any reaction. And, in fact, it doesn't appear that too many people, at least that are here, have either read it or are aware of it. That's no doubt going to change. Most of the people have been focused solely on coming to express their feelings, to share in common grief with the community, to see for themselves this place that now has become a touchstone not only for a community but for really a nation to a symbol of racial hatred and the terror attack that was carried out here. If that manifesto is truly directed and was written by Roof that tells

a number of things, Trayvon Martin, he would have been 17, 18, at the time -- I'm talking about Roof -- when this trial went on, so at a very young age. And apparently he did his research in some twisted way on the Internet and he was sort of made self-aware of these kinds of racial attitudes that he has.

So it begins to answer some of these questions. He says it wasn't his upbringing, it wasn't his parents or family life that made him the way he is. Again, we don't really know if these are his words, but it could begin to answer some of the things that have been nagging and lurking in the back of people's minds. But it is no way taking the forefront here today.

One last thing I should point out, Fredricka, the Charleston police have just announced that Emanuel AME church is no longer a crime scene. The police tape has been removed. It has been returned back to the parish. And a short while ago, we did see people begin to go inside. That does lay perhaps the hope that tomorrow this will become known again as church, house of worship, as it has always been, and a place where people could return and pray and grieve. Fredricka?

WHITFIELD: And that, I know, will come as great news to a number of people, many of whom we've spoken to and you have spoken to, who are yearning to go back into that sanctuary as early as tomorrow. We will see if that happens. Thank you so much, Martin Savidge and Alina Machado. We'll check back with you.

So let's talk more about this so-called manifesto, especially as, again, it continues to be verified and checked out by authorities. Joining me right now, retired chief deputy U.S. Marshal Matthew Fogg, former FBI special agent Michael German, and psychologist Jeff Gardere. All right, to all of you, even as it's being verified, it is troubling nonetheless. And so, Michael, if you could, while investigators are trying to figure out whether indeed this was authored by Dylann Roof, even if it wasn't, how troubling was it in your view that the opportunity would be taken, that these words would be shared, even if it was authored back in February. If not Roof, then it certainly helps exemplify a sentiment, a feeling out there.

MICHAEL GERMAN, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Right. You know, this has been a persistent problem in our society, white supremacy and anti- government sentiment. So it's nothing new. And it's broadly available. Even before the Internet when I was working undercover in Neo-Nazi and anti-government groups, the amount of written material, books, pamphlets was shocking to me as an agent to learn how easy it was to obtain this stuff. So this material has long been out there.

And, you know, I think, regardless of whether Roof wrote this document, there are enough indicators in this case to suggest that he was clearly attacking this church to intimidate and coerce the black community in Charleston and across the country.

WHITFIELD: Right. And so, Matthew, just as Michael was saying, regardless of whether Roof wrote this, it does exemplify, you know, that he has company. He didn't confess to the feeling, but he has company. In your view, to what degree, how pervasive, how troublesome is it in terms of the growth? I know the Southern Poverty Law Center has said within the past ten years there has been an increase in activity and sympathizers to that degree. What does this exemplify in your view?

MATTHEW FOGG, FORMER CHIEF DEPUTY U.S. MARSHAL: Well, it exemplifies to me that this, as a nation, that we have to really now begin to talk about this subject and put it out there. I mean, the fact that this guy went and bought a .45 Glock, that's a type of weapon that when you use a weapon like that you're going to really tear some some -- you're going to do some serious damage. And for him to go and buy a .45, a Glock like that, and they said these people received multiple wounds, he knew exactly what he wanted to do. He knew the terror that he wanted to inflict upon the community, the chilling effect. And he did exactly that.

And when you read the manifesto and you read how he looks at the black folks being inferior to white people, he talks about all of that in that manifesto. So you have got a person here who is just simply mimicking a lot of the data and rhetoric that is already out there. These groups, there are many of them out there now. And we've got to be concerned about this.

[14:10:16] WHITFIELD: And then Jeffrey, let's look at some of the language from this manifesto, whether it was written by Roof or somebody else using language like this, that he was not raised in a racist environment, and, you know, to Matthew's point, blacks are the real racists. "The event truly awakened me. The event that truly awakened me was the Trayvon Martin case." So, as you look at this language, look at these words, what do you interpret here?

JEFFREY GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, what I see, whoever wrote this manifesto is someone who was not psychotic, for sure, because this is not a psychotic manifesto. This is a manifesto filled with hate. We've read this before. We've seen these types of beliefs systems before. White supremacists actually preach all of these things. They talk about blacks, they talk about Jews, they talk about Asians, they talk about Hispanics.

You talked earlier about standing on the American flag and burning it, if this, in fact, was Roof who wrote this, and why are we protecting America if we're embracing blacks, and we need to embrace whites. So this is something that speaks of pure hate and racism and why we really just can't let these things happen and let them be written. As one of your guests said, we have to begin taking these things seriously, because they create hate, and when you have unbalanced individuals, they take it beyond just the rhetoric right to murder.

WHITFIELD: And then Matthew, take the next step there, because Jeff is saying you've got to take this stuff seriously. But at the same time, it is not a crime to think and believe any of these things. But it is a crime to carry out. But then, isn't that the problem, the huge gap between thinking, believing, writing a manifesto, and then actually carrying out a crime? At what point -- I mean, that's the problem that, you know, America is facing right now is how to prevent a thought from becoming a heinous, horrible act. FOGG: Well, he's speaking terrorism. This is what we're talking

about. We're talking about stuff that happens -- when these folks do this stuff, we talk about jihad, we talking about in this country terrorism and what seems to be the attributes that leads us to that. We look at certain things. When he's making the statements that he's making in this particular manifesto, if it is his, and the fact that he went and actually -- his parents, I mean, he went and got a gun when he had a felony hanging over his head. Somebody at that point should have said something then. They should have called authorities and said no, you will not have a gun. The fact that they allowed him to get this gun, and then he carried out this act, he's writing in the manifesto, he's talking about the confederate flag, which has always been an issue there in that state, a flag that represents terrorism for black folks, that represents every reprehensible thing you can think of for somebody black, and then to be running around with the flag and then doing the other things he did, to me, he carried it out. I mean, somebody should have spotted him.

WHITFIELD: So Michael, to underscore, you have spent time undercover with racist groups. And so based on what you learned and observed, what is needed to intervene once you see the activity, the hate, the meetings, the planning of eradicating or erasing people that these groups don't like, what is needed to make sure that the thinking is not carried over into an act of erasing, killing, murdering people?

GERMAN: So, first, what needs to happen is the federal government and state and local law enforcement need to really understand this problem. Unfortunately, even though we poured hundreds of millions of dollars into terrorism research, it is only focused on Muslim terrorism and doesn't really acknowledge the fact that there are other groups out there that are harming members of our community.

So I think we need to get the politics out of terrorism studies and actually look at this as a crime problem that needs to be solved so that we can understand how the criminal element within these groups actually operates.

And, you know, unfortunately, in the empirical studies of this type of activity, clear indicators of future violence are not very easy to find, but any time somebody makes a threat or obtains weapons once they've made a threat, that's clearly something that needs to be reported to authorities.

[14:15:00] FOGG: And Fredricka, if I may add, we have to be concerned about these groups, even from a perspective of even we have some law enforcement people that are associated with these groups. I mean, I remember back in the '80s we had them going to the good old boy roundups. So we have to look at this thing and take it serious in this country and realize race is a real problem in this country and we have to address it.

WHITFIELD: All right, Matthew Fogg, Michael German, Jeff Gardere, thanks to all of you gentlemen, appreciate it.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN breaking news.

WHITFIELD: All right, a few breaking news items for you right now. First off, in Charleston, days after that massacre at Emanuel AME church, our Martin Savidge who is there in Charleston is learning through his sources that now that Charleston police say that the church is no longer a crime scene, that indeed tomorrow will be the first church services, Sunday services, days after that massacre. Nine people killed at Emanuel AME Church, pictures right now inside the sanctuary.

Church members are very eager to get back to that sanctuary in that church. It has been a crime scene ever since that confessed gunman walked in to bible study, and then opening up gunfire after attending that bible study, killing nine people. And now our Martin Savidge is telling us Charleston police removing the crime scene tape, the designation of it being a crime scene, and now the church will be opening up tomorrow, Sunday, for services.

Also, another breaking news item we continue to follow now in the search for a couple of escaped killers out of upstate New York, after breaking out of a maximum security facility. The Clinton Correctional Facility has now placed a corrections officer on leave as part of the ongoing investigation. But it won't identify the officer. This is in addition to prison worker Joyce Mitchell, who is in jail, charged in connection with the two inmates escaped.

[14:20:08] And then this -- New York state police are investigating two new possible sightings of the convicts. Richard Matt and David Sweat near the New York-Pennsylvania border. CNN's Sara Ganim is in Dannemora, New York. So Sara, tell us more about how the investigation is going and the ongoing search.

SARA GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Fred. Yes, these two developments coming as authorities start their third week of searching for these two escaped inmates here. They remain searching. They are searching more than 600 miles of trails, more than 200 unoccupied homes and cabins.

But we are just now learning about two sightings that happened last weekend. On Saturday and Sunday, about 350 miles away from here, two separate people in two separate towns, one in Irvin, New York, and one in Lindley, New York, both near the border with Pennsylvania reported seeing two men who fit the description of these two inmates walking. Police didn't actually hear about this tip until Tuesday. They went down. They interviewed people. They actually were able to obtain surveillance video of two men walking in one of those towns on Friday. That was yesterday. But the video was too poor in quality for them to determine if it's, in fact, Richard Matt or David Sweat who are walking in that video. They now have sent that video to the state crime lab for further analysis and enhancement and hope to have an answer on whether or not this was a confirmed sighting or not very shortly. Fred?

WHITFIELD: All right, Sara. And then the concentrated efforts now reportedly, investigators will be looking a little closer at railroad tracks, at, you know, roads that aren't usually tread as heavily. But will that mean a change in resources as they do it?

GANIM: So they've scaled back those grid type of searches here in this area near the prison where they were having people walk through forest areas and, you know, searching grid areas. Right now what they're doing is going through trails, walking trails, essentially, and along railroad tracks that lead outside of town.

They've also upped patrols, car patrols for the state police in those two towns near the border where they have at least credible information that there could be a potential sighting.

I also want to give you a little bit more about that corrections officer who has now been placed on administrative leave. We don't know many details. We know that it is a man. And we know from talking to the district attorney over the last week or so that there was always a possibility that there were other people involved. This is a very obviously elaborate plan to escape, and they've always left open the possibility that more people were involved and have said that they will hold them all accountable. Fred?

WHITFIELD: All right, Sara Ganim, thank you so much from Dannemora, New York. More news right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[14:25:48] DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's Brian Taylor Urruela's job to motivate others as a personal trainer. But not long ago the 29-year-old needed motivation himself. In 2006 Urruela was in the army stationed in Iraq when his Humvee hit two roadside bombs. He survived the blast, but his right leg was severely injured.

URRUELA: My leg was completely useless. I would never run again, never bike, never swim. We fought for two. I had about 10 to 12 surgeries to try to fix it. They suggested selective amputation as an option.

GUPTA: After amputation surgery Urruela had a tough time adjusting to civilian life.

URRUELA: I was planning on a 20-year career, and that was over. That's when the PTSD just hit me hard, started just trying to drink the pain and way. I didn't want to die, but I didn't want to live anymore.

GUPTA: He got counseling, he hit the gym, and started volunteering.

URRUELA: It took the focus away from myself.

GUPTA: Urruela and two other veterans were inspired to start the non- profit Vet Sports.

URRUELA: We help veterans transition back into civilian life through team sports and community involvement.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's basically a sports system, another guy to my right and my left has my back just like on the battlefield.

GUPTA: It's a camaraderie that heals.

URRUELA: I'm finally in a place where I'm genuinely recovered and happy.

GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN breaking news.

WHITFIELD: And this breaking news now out of New Orleans, Louisiana. A police officer is shot to death as he was transporting a prisoner arrested from a previous shift, and a manhunt is now under way to find the suspect. You're looking at the picture of the officer there, at first you were, 45-year-old officer. Now you're looking at the picture of the suspect. Police are looking for this man, Travis Boys, who New Orleans police say shot and killed Officer Daryle Holloway, who is 45-years-old. He's a 20-year vet of the police force there.

And according to police Boys was able to get free from his handcuffs during that transport, grab a firearm somehow while Officer Holloway was driving the police vehicle. Police are saying the officer was shot and killed, and then Boys managed to escape in that transport vehicle.

Of course, we're trying to learn more information about the manhunt, about the circumstances of that shooting, but for now let's talk with CNN law enforcement analyst Tom Fuentes with the information that we do have right now. As a former assistant director to the FBI, Tom, your reaction to what we're learning?

TOM FUENTES, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: I think, Fred, this is just a tremendous tragedy, to have an officer killed this way. You know, it's really sad. We still don't know all of the facts of what happened here. And we'll have to see what happened, how did he get those cuffs off? Was he handcuffed improperly? Did he have a key hidden somewhere. Was he searched improperly? Did he already have a weapon? Did he somehow have access to the officer driving the van or the vehicle and take his weapon and use it?

But all we know is that we have a dead officer, and presumably this Boys is on the loose and armed, armed and dangerous.

Now, this will different from the New York manhunt because it's a sudden escape. There was no indication yet that he had any preplanning in this. And so now, you know, he won't have provisions and clothing and money and all of those things. And in this type of manhunt, oftentimes they return to see a parent, a friend, family member, neighbor, classmate, colleague, someone who can aid them, who can give them money, clothing, and help survive and then help them escape. WHITFIELD: And then, Tom, all those questions that you ask are great

and I know we don't have the answers to them, but all we know, according to this Nola police press release, which says that it happened earlier this morning. We don't know exactly what time. But now we are talking about potential lead time, right, because here it is, 2:30 eastern time, 1:30 New Orleans time, this ongoing search for this person, the picture being released right here of the suspect, and the few details that we have.

[14:30:11] Give me an idea of how the investigation goes forward in your view of this manhunt, of this search for this suspect. What are police likely to do first in trying to locate this person? Even though you underscored it's a difference circumstance than the New York prison escapees where there was some preplanning, but instinctively, where are officers going to concentrate their efforts?

FUENTES: Well, if Boys is from New Orleans or that immediate area, they'll be looking again at -- or even if he isn't, they'll be looking at family members, parents, brothers, as I mentioned, anybody that he might go to for assistance because he's not going to get very far.

And you're right, we don't know how much lead time he had. Presumably, if it's normal procedure, when the officer began the transportation of taking him to the police station, or if he was taking him to another jail facility, that he would have radioed in that he had this prisoner and he was en route. So what we don't know is did he just never show up and that's how they discovered what happened they start radioing and asking him where are you, what's going on? And then start to look for the vehicle, first and foremost, and then maybe they found the vehicle and found the officer deceased in the vehicle and that's how they knew what happened. And then that would be a starting point of presuming that that's where he began on foot.

But then we don't know, did he steal someone else's car? Did he do a carjacking? Did he do a home invasion? Or did he try to get directly back to a family member for support?

WHITFIELD: OK. All right, well, again, 45-year-old New Orleans police officer Daryle Holloway dead after being shot, allegedly by this 20-year-old Travis Boys, who now investigators continue to look for. This taking place, according to New Orleans police earlier this morning, that's the information we are now receiving, so now a very active search for this suspect. Tom Fuentes, thank you so much.

FUENTES: You're welcome.

WHITFIELD: All right, and now, also, this breaking news out of Charleston. Days after that horrible massacre at the Emanuel AME church, Charleston police have now declared it's no longer a crime scene, and now our Martin Savidge is about to join us to give us an idea as to how you have learned that now Emanuel AME, Mother Emanuel will be making plans for Sunday services now?

SAVIDGE: Yes, they will. That was announced a short while ago. We told you probably about an hour ago how the police had said that that was no longer a crime scene. They lifted the police tape as it was no longer needed for the purposes of their investigation. That seemed to open the door.

And then it was a short time later we heard from church officials themselves that said that service will be held tomorrow, Sunday, 9:30 in the morning. They are allowing a television camera to be inside, so they know there will be tremendous interest. You can imagine that this church will be everyone's church come tomorrow morning, and I would expect that the crowds would be huge and far beyond the capacity of the sanctuary to hold.

So many people want to be here. So many people realize that it's part of the healing process, maybe it's part of the grieving process. It's really just part of Charleston. They have to come and see it. They have to be with others there. They have to share this communal experience, share their common grief in the tragedy that struck the community.

But the really, really wonderful news is now, tomorrow morning, the church will reopen its doors and be available to all, as it has always been, and service is 9:30 in the morning. I suggest if you're coming, come early.

WHITFIELD: Come very early. I bet it's going to be welcome news, because I know, as you've learned, Martin, being there on the ground, people have expressed they can't wait to get back into that sanctuary. I've been talking on the phone the last couple of days with Ms. Felicia Breeland, the wife of former state representative Floyd Breeland. They're members of the church, have been for decades, for all of her life. And one of the first things she said when I initially spoke with her, and that was just the day after the shooting, she wanted to know, have you heard when the church is going to open?

So they need it. It is part of their daily routine, so many there. So in your view, who is likely to lead services? The pastor is no longer. He was one of the nine cut down. What is the conversation about who will lead?

SAVIDGE: We haven't heard that. We haven't heard that answer yet. That is on the minds of many, because of course, as you pointed out, the primary pastor was the first person murdered among the nine that were killed in this mass slaughter. So I imagine that there are going to be a lot of people, one, who will wish to be a part of this service, those who want to be in the congregation, but those who would also like to lead.

[14:35:00] I think in many ways this is going to be a community service, a service that is specifically Emanuel AME, but I think in a lot of ways, it could be a community that comes together and a community that shares in their faith and maybe different faiths. And there has been the expression of different faiths outside here. So we'll have to wait and see.

But it's great news. And it's news, as you say, that this community has been anticipating and hoping for. They thought maybe, I don't know, it may be too soon. They weren't done with the investigation. They are done, and you could feel that people were thrilled because they can get back to what that church has always been about.

WHITFIELD: Yes. It is definitely a centerpiece of healing, and certainly needed now more than ever. Thanks so much, Martin Savidge, appreciate that.

So when people go back to church tomorrow at Emanuel AME, they may also not only be grateful to be together again, but they might also be thinking about security. This is the church that had open doors because they had open arms. They allowed anyone to come to this church when they felt the need at any time. So let's talk more about how a church with this philosophy, how a church, any church in America wants to maintain that open door policy, but at the same time be mindful of security. To answer some of those questions, church security specialist Carl Chen, he's joining us from Denver. Good to see you, Carl.

CARL CHINN, CHURCH SECURITY SPECIALIST: Good to see you, Fredricka, thank you.

WHITFIELD: A lot of church members will say they don't want to be consumed with security and measures of keeping people out or even thinking that anyone would be up to no good. But it is now the sign of the times where a lot of churches have to think about keeping their place safe, keeping their parishioners safe. What is the advice that you would have for Mother Emanuel Church on how they can maintain an open door policy, but at the same time be mindful that it has to be protected?

CHINN: Sure. Well, the first thing that I would say to Emanuel AME church is that many of the things that they're doing are right on course. And I applaud them for that. A very good friend of mine who's earned the right to say this said the power of forgiveness is much more powerful than the power of a gun. And our brothers and sisters there in Charleston, South Carolina, are modeling that to the world.

And so, first of all, what I would say to them is you're doing well, as well as you can under the current circumstances.

The other thing that I would say is yes, I do believe and I go across the country trying to help others get a hold of this belief that the protection of our staff and our congregants is worth the actions of intentional security.

WHITFIELD: So then, Carl, there are a lot of very sizable, really big churches who a long time ago put in place magnetometers. And there were moments they felt conflicted about having it as well. But when you're talking about smaller, more intimate kind of church settings, how do you as a security adviser of churches go about, you know, conveying these are the measures you can put into place without losing, you know, the feeling of the church, the comfort that comes with this church because you have beefed up security or put security in place? CHINN: Well, first of all, when we talk about a church being an open

door, that's really not that much different than a Wal-Mart or a theater or a shopping center being an open door. Everybody needs people to come in. And I'm not so much on the magnetometers and scanners of different sorts and going to that level of extreme. What I'm mostly for is churches becoming intentional in their security operations, assigning some people who have protection in their DNA, getting them a little bit of the training that's applicable to that type of a culture, and having them ready for things that we in the industry call a DLR, "don't look right." These aren't people that look like men in black. They aren't people with guns --

WHITFIELD: But gosh, that DLR. That almost seems like the antithesis of what many churches don't want to embrace. That you don't look right, many communities want to say everyone looks right.

CHINN: Well, to a trained security operator, you can tell what does look right and what doesn't look right. There's behavioral pattern recognition. There's things about that young man that didn't look right. [14:40:04] So, yes, you're there in a culture where, yes, you want to

embrace everybody. But at the same time, especially in a large church, we see it all the time. We can recognize the people who are there with malice intentions.

WHITFIELD: All right, we'll leave it right there. Carl Chen, we appreciate your expertise. Thank you so much.

CHINN: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN breaking news.

WHITFIELD: All right, we're continuing to follow breaking news out of New Orleans now where a police officer has been shot to death as he was transporting a prisoner arrested on a previous shift. A manhunt is now under way to find the suspect. You're looking at the picture of Officer Daryle Holloway, a 20-year veteran of the force who was killed today at the age of 45.

Right now, police are looking for this man, Travis Boys. According to police, Boys was able to get free from his handcuffs, grab a firearm while Officer Holloway was driving his police vehicle. And then, according to police, Boys then shot the officer and Boys managed to escape that transport vehicle, according to police. We'll continue to bring you the latest updates as we get it on this ongoing manhunt in New Orleans.

And the Department of Justice is now investigating the Charleston church massacre, and in a statement the Department of Justice is saying "This heartbreaking episode was undoubtedly designed to strike fear and terror into this community, and the department is looking at this crime from all angles, including as a hate crime and as an act of domestic terrorism."

But FBI director James Comey says he would not label that crime terrorism.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: I wouldn't because of the way we define terrorism under the law. Terrorism is an act of violence done or threatened in order to try to influence a public body or the citizenry, so it's more of a political act. And again, based on what I know so far, I don't see it as a political act.

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[14:45:16] WHITFIELD: So the FBI's own definition of terrorism is this, quote, "The unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof in furtherance of political or social objectives."

So let's bring in HLN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney Joey Jackson. So, Joey, to hear Comey, as he puts it, and then to put that right up against the FBI's own definition of an act of terrorism, is there a conflict here?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Good afternoon, Fredricka. I think there is. You know, there's a way to talk about this, I think, practically in theory, and then in practice. And first, if you look at the definition, as I understand it, and it's not only what the FBI says it is. There's a federal law governing what domestic terrorism is. So if you engage in a dangerous act, which is against violation of any law in the United States and it's done with the intention to coerce a civilian population, that's terrorism.

And so, you know, the FBI will be guided by the director's judgment, but in terms of what the law says, there's no political component. The reality is if you engage in an activity, and the basis of you doing that, Fredricka, is to coerce and to intimidate, that constitutes terrorism, and that's a theoretical way to look at it, and that's, you know, what the law says.

Now, from a practical perspective, this terrorist, this particular sadistic person, this however you label him, you know, I think the label everybody wants to get to is the label of justice. And I think there are laws certainly in South Carolina to deal with him. He'll be prosecuted for those nine murders, potentially looking at the death penalty, and there certainly isn't any greater penalty than that. So no matter what you call it, as long as justice is done, I think that's the underlying thing that people are looking for.

WHITFIELD: And so Joey, while you're talking we are also showing new images that we just obtained within the past few hours, images that were on a website. Still unclear, you know, about the real verification of whether the source of the manifesto and these images are that of Dylann Roof, but these pictures appear to show Dylann Roof burning a flag, standing on an American flag, holding a Confederate flag. In what way do you see any of those images being used in the argument of hate, of domestic terrorism, et cetera?

JACKSON: Fredricka, it's disturbing. And our eyes show us what they do, and clearly this is someone motivated by hatred, motivated and targeting people for no other reason than they're African-American and that's something that is against his ideology. And of course, you see him with the Confederate flag and standing on the flag of the United States of America, which is a symbol of freedom. It's a symbol of democracy. It's a symbol of openness and opportunity. And so certainly it doesn't bode well for who he is, but I think the justice system certainly will be on top of it and justice will be achieved in this case.

WHITFIELD: All right, Joey Jackson, thank you so much.

JACKSON: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: And we'll be right back after this.

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[14:52:09] WHITFIELD: An amazing display of courage, faith, and love during gunman Dylann Roof's bond hearing. The judge allowed the families of the victims to directly address Roof, and everyone that we heard forgave him.

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BETHANE MIDDLETON-BROWN, SISTER OF REVEREND DEPAYNE MIDDLETON DOCTOR: And I do thank you on behalf of my family for not allowing hate to win. For me, I'm a work in progress. And I acknowledge that I am very angry. But one thing that DePayne always enjoined in our family is that she taught me that we are the family that love built. We have no room for hate. We have to forgive. And I pray God on your soul. And I also thank God that I won't be around when your judgment day comes with him.

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WHITFIELD: All right, I'm joined now by Reverend Ralph Warnock, senior pastor at Ebenezer Baptist Church here in Atlanta which was once led by Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. So Reverend, to hear those words, there were so many people who were just taken aback to hear the kind of forgiveness that these loved ones who were in such great pain were extending to the gunman.

REV. RAPHAEL WARNOCK, SENIOR PASTOR, EBENEZER BAPTIST CHURCH: Yes, I think it speaks volumes about the people of Emanuel. And they come from a great tradition. Let's not forget that there's a reason why Dylann, why Mr. Roof was able to come into that church. I presume from what I've heard he was the only white person there, but they didn't think it odd. He sat right next to the pastor. This is the spirit and the tradition.

WHITFIELD: And one of the family members said, you know, we enjoyed him. WARNOCK: I heard that. Yes. So it's a magnanimous spirit, openness,

spirit, forgiveness, grace. This is the grand tradition of the black church. And when we say the black church, because some viewers may not be aware having heard that phrase, it's never meant anything racially exclusively. In fact, the black church was born to bear witness to the fact that we are one people. It was the refusal to accept segregation and ugliness and hatred that created this great AME tradition. Ebenezer Baptist and others are a part of that tradition. And so it's inspiring, but I wasn't surprised, not really.

WHITFIELD: A place of comfort. And then tomorrow, now, we know that Emanuel AME, the doors will open for service tomorrow.

WARNOCK: That's right.

WHITFIELD: And we have seen over the course of days, whether it be in Charleston, even at your church as you mentioned a while ago to me, that it is multiracial. It is multidenominational. The outpouring of support, of grief, of comfort, and it is likely to happen again tomorrow in church services across America. But what do you envision at Mother Emanuel tomorrow?

[14:55:13] WARNOCK: Well, we have to remember that this is a church that has endured this kind of assault before. This is a church shaped in sorrow and suffering. They've learned after hundreds of years to transform their pain into power. This is a church that was burned down in its pursuit of liberty.

And so I think it carries on appropriately so in that spirit. And so it's dark now, but the darkness does not overwhelm us. It does not define us. The light shines in the darkness, and, as the scripture says, "the darkness overcometh it not." And so that's what it means to open the doors of the church on this Sunday like any other Sunday. That will happen at Emanuel. It will happen at Ebenezer Church. When we witness this kind of assault ourselves 41 years ago this month, the mother of Martin Luther King Jr. shot and killed while playing the lord's prayer on an organ, and yet we've gone forward in the pursuit of love and justice.

WHITFIELD: I talked to one church member who did not join us on the air, but she told me over the phone, she said, you know, the gunmen tried to shut us down. We will not close down. That will never happen. So if anything, you hear from church members who say, you know, they are stronger even now.

WARNOCK: Oh, I believe it. These are a strong people. And they're committed. I believe that the work will go forward.

Our hearts are saddened to lose someone of the stature and commitment of Reverend Pinckney. I did not know him personally. Many of my friends and colleagues did. But he really represents the best of the tradition. Here is a man whose pulpit was the world, whose parish was the whole community, who preached about love and justice on Sunday, and then sought to enact that in legislation during the week. And so the best way to pay tribute is to open the doors tomorrow and then to fight for the best of what America represents. WHITFIELD: Reverend Warnock of Ebenezer Baptist Church here in

Atlanta, thank you so much, appreciate it.

WARNOCK: Good to be here.

WHITFIELD: All right, we have so much more straight ahead in the newsroom. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. Thanks so much for being with me this afternoon. Poppy Harlow up next.

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