Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Emanuel AME Church Reopens for Sunday Service; Richard Matt and David Sweat Were Sighted. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired June 21, 2015 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[17:00:03] POPPY HARLOW, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. 5:00 eastern this Sunday evening. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.

We begin in Charleston, South Carolina at a house of worship once again filled with voices of faith.

An absolutely glorious Sunday morning there in Charleston. Hundreds filling the pews of Emanuel African Methodist episcopal church singing, praying, and remembering nine people taken in an act of horrifying brutality. One of the victims was the church's pastor. His usual seat crowded (ph) in the black cloth beyond honoring the victims, the service focused on action.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. NORVEL GOFF SR., 7TH EMANUEL AME CHURCH SERVICE: The blood of the mother Emanuel nine requires us to work until not only justice in this case but for those who are still living the margin of life, those who are less fortunate than ourselves, that we stay on the battle field until there is no more fight to be fought.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Outside of the church, bells tolled over a growing memorial of flowers and messages and churches across Charleston rang their bells in solidarity. In just a few hours, a unity chain will be held on a bridge connecting Charleston and the city of Mt. Pleasant. People plan to hold hands across more than two miles of that bridge.

Our Martin Savidge is live for us this afternoon in Charleston.

Martin, you were there. You were inside of the church for the ceremony. What was it like?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Poppy.

I have to say one of the most remarkable services I've ever had the opportunity to witness. The and the reason is that church services coming after a tragedy are unfortunately not that uncommon. However, a church service that is the site of that tragedy, it just elevated the emotions so many times over. You could tell it was packed. In fact, it was beyond packed. There were probably more hundreds more people than the church is normally capable of handling a lot of people who are standing. Security was extra tight. People were screened as they went in and uniformed police officers continued to circulate on the outer aisles.

You could also tell that there were the regular parishioners and then there were other people that had never set foot inside that church before but felt compelled. In fact, the couple next to me felt that way.

So, it was a normal service in a lot of ways. It was as if they touched on the tragedy, but did not dwell on the tragedy. But there was no way, any member of that congregation, could not miss those nine familiar faces that were no longer in the pews.

And one of the issues that was touched upon in the sermon was the fact that this tragedy is now raising a lot of other issues and a lot of other concerns. But the reverend said, it's not the time to talk about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOFF: There's a time and place for everything. And now it's a time for us to focus on the nine families. I know I'm right. Because at this time, we need to be in solidarity and praying for families and our communities around this state and particularly in Charleston.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAVIDGE: The church service could shift moods and do it very quickly. There would be times when the people were extremely joyous, up on their feet and dancing in the pews. There were other times you could see that there were members of the congregation that had collapsed and other fellow congregants gathered around them, put their hands around them, held them, loved them - Poppy.

HARLOW: One of your team members down there, Marty, one of our producers said that they heard a man in the crowd today say we are not black, we are not white, we are Charleston.

SAVIDGE: I think that's reflected in many ways. I mean, you see that, of course, one, if you looked at the congregation inside there, it was clearly not all black. If you look at the people who are drawn to come to Emanuel church, they represent every part of this community. They've represented every part of this country. And there are signs that are placed out there that people are signing by the hundreds if not the thousands that say that we are Charleston united.

So this is a communicate that has decided to respond to this terror attack, one man's apparent twisted notion that he could start a race war by unifying in a way that perhaps they had not even thought they could do and that's the answer they give to terror - Poppy.

[17:05:00] HARLOW: I think people will look back and they won't remember this shooter. This villain they will remember where they were the Sunday morning when those church bells tolled and the entire nation came together to celebrate Charleston.

Martin Savidge, thank you very much.

SAVIDGE: You are welcome.

HARLOW: If you would like to help the families of the victims of this tragedy, go to CNN.com/impact. We have a long list of ways you can help remember them and help the survivors. Again, that's CNN.com/impact.

Now to that urgent search for two very dangerous men. Two murderers who broke out of prison in New York state more than two weeks ago. Only in the past 24 hours have police been able to act on really anything close to a credible tip. On Saturday afternoon, the manhunt blasted into high gear when a tipster called 911 with a sighting two men who looked just like those killers walking along the railroad like. Police swarm, so far, though, they have come up with nothing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAJ. MICHAEL CERRETTO, COMMANDER TROOP A, NEW YORK STATE POLICE: We will continue to search this area until all leads have been exhausted. As we have in other areas of the state, we will search under every rock, behind every tree and structure until we are confident that that area is secure. While this is an unconfirmed sighting, the state police is asking residents who live on that area in the New York/Pennsylvania border to be on alert. If these men are spotted, please call 911 immediately. Do not approach as both are considered to be very dangerous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Alexandra Field is live for us in Allegheny County, New York.

Alex, what's the sense you get from the people on the ground there carrying out this search? Do they think that this is a lead that is going to finally give them a little more traction than any other one has?

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Look, any lead that seemed a credible lead is a good place to start at this point, Poppy. Because over the last few days, and even maybe more than a week now, we have been saying that the investigators have feared that the trail has gone cold.

So when you investigators saying that they believe they have something credible to go on, that does give some sense of search crew or give some optimism to the public at large. But keep in mind, that this is a tip that came in now about 28 hours ago. It seemed like a good tip because the caller seemed credible to authorities. The caller was able to give a good description of the two fugitives who are on the run, Richard Matt and David Sweat. This caller was interviewed extensively by authorities who then decided to really pursue this tip with the full weight of their resources. And that's when we saw some 300 law enforcement officers descend on this town 300 miles southwest of the prison that these two fugitives broke out of.

A lot of search mechanisms have been put into place. We've seen the canines on the ground, the choppers in the air, you got road closures where people are being stopped and homes that are being searched. At the same time, we heard from state police a short while ago, just about an hour or two ago, and I had the opportunity to ask them has there been another credible sighting since that tip came in around 1:15 yesterday afternoon.

And Poppy, that wasn't something that they were willing to comment on at this point. Instead, they reaffirmed to the people of this community and I guess the public at large, their commitment to seeing this search through saying that they will stick with it, they will keep the resources here until they feel they have definitively exhausted this lead.

HARLOW: Does this mean that they're not, Alex, searching as extensively at least up by the prison where they were focused before?

FIELD: You know, we heard from investigators outside the prison at the end of last week that they were in some ways shifting their focus. They were not in any way saying that they were peeling back on the search or reneging on any part of their commitment. They are saying that they had shifted from what was a grid search, sort of a tradition search that you often see where you set up a perimeter, where you move through it, where you clear the area. Instead, they were going to be looking at possible escape routes.

And one thing that's interesting here, Poppy, is that at the time, investigators said they that were turning their focus to trails that led away from Dannemora and also railroad lines. And Poppy, you will remember, you reported on this on your show yesterday, that this credible sighting, this credible tip that came in here in Friendship was somebody who is reporting that they saw the two fugitives walking near a railroad line. So that was something that seemed to give perhaps some extra credence to this tip.

HARLOW: Let's hope this is the lead they need.

Alexandra Field, thank you so much.

Coming up next, Charleston is not alone in mourning this weekend. Detroit, New Orleans, Philadelphia, three more American cities coping with the horrors of senseless gun violence. Are there any solutions on the horizon? We'll discuss next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:12:53] HARLOW: As this country tries to heal from the Charleston church massacre, there was an explosion of violence overnight in several major American cities. Ten people including three children were shot at a Philadelphia block party picnic last night. The victims are all expected to survive, thank goodness.

In Detroit, one person was killed, nine others injured when a suspect opened fire at a child's birthday party.

And earlier today, New Orleans police made an arrest in the shooting death of one of their own police officers. A prisoner being transported by officer Daryle Holloway on Friday was able to get out of his handcuffs, shoot and kill Holloway and drive away in his police van. The Charleston, South Carolina mayor says enough is enough.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR JOE RILEY, CHARLESTON, SOUTH CAROLINA: The country is just having a very difficult time dealing with the proliferation of guns. And we have to use this most recent tragedy to keep us working on that. We have to do that. It is insane the number of guns and the ease of getting guns in America. It's not -- it just doesn't fit with the other achievements of this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Let's talk about it with former FBI assistant director Tom Fuentes, also a police officer earlier in his career.

What is your reaction to what he said? That it is insane.

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: It is insane, Poppy. And I think that the problem is now, nobody wants to hear the inconvenient truth of what it will take to get guns out of people of the hands of people.

HARLOW: What will it take?

FUENTES: It will take stop and frisk across the police force. It will have them challenging people on street corners that are acting suspicious and take their guns away. This is what was going on for ten years in the community hates it and they wanted it stopped. But it brought murder rates down in New York city for example from over 2,400 a year to under 300. So there's only one way to get these guns off the street and law won't do it.

HARLOW: But you says the foolproof way? Because if you look at the Sandy Hook massacre in Newtown, if you look at what happened in this church, I mean, that wouldn't have been stopped by stop and frisk. I want you to take a look at what South Carolina Republican senator Tim Scott said this week on CNN. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[17:15:05] SEN. TIM SCOTT (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: He broke several gun laws in his committing of this atrocity, this murder. He has without any question broken several gun laws. So the question is, is there a law that could be put in place that would have prevented this from happening. My answer is no.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: He says no.

FUENTES: No, that's true. You won't be able to prevent everyone. You probably couldn't have prevented the shootings in Charleston. But we're -- you know, cities like Baltimore with seven murders a week and up and going up, those murders you could put a serious reduction in. The New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit.

So yes, this is going to happen. People that hate and get access to guns or other people that are mentally ill and get access to guns, like Sandy Hook, the kid getting his mother's assault rifle. But there's thousands and thousands of guns on the street and nobody's going to take them away from the people except the police.

HARLOW: What about the situation that just happened in Ohio? A police officer shot and killed when this guy called 911. And he called in and tip about some deranged man with the gun et cetera, et cetera. Turns out that deranged person was him. This is the officer that responded. On one side of your screen. He was shot and killed.

And look, this is the guy the suspect had mentioned to plan to commit suicide by cop. He wrote about it on Facebook. No one said anything. He spoke about this and this is the same thing with Dylann Roof. His friends say, yes, he did, you know, say these very troubling things. No one came forward.

FUENTES: No, that's true. People can stop that. Suicide by cop is a phenomena that's gone on for decades. And in this case, I mean, this is classic. You have this guy invite the police officer to come so that he can kill the police officer and the police officer can kill him which is what happened. That will happen, that will continue to happen.

But I'm not talking about the shootings like Sandy Hook or like Charleston. I'm talking about the seven almost daily murders of people on many streets, in many cities of this country. There are tens of thousands of guns out there that are out in people's hands who are on the street late at night. The police know they are out there, the riots have been smelled they are out there. Either you want the police to take those guns away or you don't. And if you don't, they're going to shoot each other with them. That's just simple fact.

HARLOW: The inconvenient truth --

FUENTES: The inconvenient truth, we don't want to hear.

HARLOW: Tom Fuentes, thank you very much. As always, I appreciate it.

All of you can hear all of Jake Tapper's interview with the mayor of Charleston. Fascinating interview. It's right up on CNN.com/stateoftheunion.

While so many people worry about Islamic extremism, terrorist attacks on that front, is what we witnessed in Charleston a much bigger threat to this country, a lone Wolf driven by rage, racism, determined to kill. We're going to talk about that with Peter Bergen next.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): We're just three months away from the Nautical Malibu triathlon. And the CNN Fit Nation team is going strong. Six-pack member, Chip Greenidge says his biggest challenge has been

time.

CHIP GREENIDGE, FIT NATION PARTICIPANT: I'm a very busy person. I'm very involved in scoot activities. I'm a PhD student at Georgia State University. But if you take the time out to actually do it, you see the results.

GUPTA: Swimming, biking and running over the last several months, Greenidge says his bad habits have changed.

GREENIDGE: I think the biggest change is really looking at the kind of food choices I do. A lot of times I would kind of really eat late at night and that's been a big no-no.

GUPTA: And he's getting results.

GREENIDGE: I sat back and said, wow, I'm not losing any weight, not losing any weight. And I got on the scale and I said, oh, my God, I lost 20 pounds.

GUPTA: Moving forward toward the race, he says his biggest goal is to take it all in.

GREENIDGE: I think my marching orders is to really, really enjoy it. Enjoy the time and learn from the experience, but also share it with lots of my friends and family members.

GUPTA: And as for any doubts he has about crossing the finish line --

GREENIDGE: I'm going to do it. That's what I put my mind to do. Anything I put my mind to do, I do.

GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:23:08] HARLOW: Tragic targeted, twisted, those are words that have been used to describe the massacre in Charleston this week. Many believe another word should be used, terrorism.

CNN national security analyst Peter Bergen wrote this op-ed on CNN.com this week, call it terrorism in Charleston. And in it, he writes, as a matter of the public safety, there is really no difference between terrorism that is purportedly committed in the name of Allah and killing committed that is committed for other political ends, such as the racist beliefs about African-American that have appear to have motivated the attack in Charleston.

The FBI director this week said that's not exactly the case as heinous as it is. He said this doesn't technically fall under the description, the terms legally of terrorism.

Let's talk about it with Peter Bergen. He joins me now from Washington.

Peter, we know that the police say this is someone who himself said he wanted to start a race war. Does the federal law need to be rewritten to classify an act like this as terrorism so there isn't even a debate?

PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes, maybe. I mean, you know, I mean, when a federal prosecutor looks at any crime, they want to, you know, not introduce -- they want to try it in the simplest possible way. And they are interested in conviction. And there's going to be very little controversy that he's already confessed to the crime, there were witnesses to the crime. And you know, it's easiest to try this as murder, introducing other concepts such as hate crime which is what the department of justice is thinking about or even terrorism could complicate federal prosecutors to hear. But that doesn't mean that, you know, of course, that we - that it's not something we should be talking about because clearly when you say you're calling for a race war, that's a fundamentally very political objective. And clearly, when you're killing civilians with a political objective, that is by any conventional definition, terrorism.

HARLOW: And don't you think it would perhaps cause us and lawmakers to go even harder after people like this, people like Dylann Roof. Who it appears from this manifesto online, et cetera, what he said to his friends, had talked a lot about this, talked a lot about extremist beliefs, he bought a gun, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, look how hard law enforcement goes after these extremist -- Islamic extremists for example and the fight against terror. Wouldn't classifying it as terrorism sort of increase the fight against this too?

[17:25:26] BERGEN: Well, Poppy, I think that's a very good point. And the fact is that police and the FBI are very conscious of the fact that extreme anti-government activists or extreme racists are quite violent. We've seen since 9/11, 48 murders taken place by people animated by these people, and 26 by jihadi terrorists. And so, certainly if you are in law enforcement - and by the way, many of the victims, all people animated with these extreme anti-government views are police officers or government officials.

So there's certainly an understanding within the government that it's a problem. It's less, I think widespread amongst the public. And of course,9/11 was a huge event, 3,000 people died in the course of a morning. That's the frame in which they continue to look at all things. But that doesn't exclude the fact that people motivated by other forms of political etiology other than jidahi are also killing people and they are all our problem. And we saw this in Charleston.

HARLOW: Because you wrote and I will just read part of it here, if this attack on the church in Charleston had been conducted by a Muslim man shouting Allah Akbar, what is already a big news story would have become even bigger. Does our thinking about this need to change as a society?

BERGEN: Well, you know, unfortunately, our thinking tends to be driven by events. And this terrible event I think will help people sort of understand that there are people still out there motivated by these kind of neo-Nazi beliefs who are basically going to, you know, commit acts of violence and that they are a problem just as much as jihadi terrorists are a problem. And we're not going to see a, you know, 9/11 attack in the United States by Al-Qaeda for all sorts of reasons. But we are going to see this people - lone wolf terrorist animated by either, you know, sort of neo-Nazi beliefs or by jihadi beliefs. And they're both a problem.

HARLOW: Peter Bergen, thank you very much.

For everyone watching, you should read Peter's columns, fascinating outline, these stunning numbers, call it terrorism. You can read it on CNN.com/opinion.

Well, after a tragedy like Charleston, many, many people talk about unity, coming together. Our next guest trying to make that a reality. Ahead, NBA all-star Dwight Howard joins me to talk about his campaign and why he went to Charleston to be with those families. We'll see you in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:30:50] HARLOW: He is an NBA super star, a stand out in this year's playoffs. The 6'11" center for the Houston Rockets is many things, but Dwight Howard is adding one more thing to that list, an advocate for change. He travelled to Charleston, South Carolina this week. He sat alongside members of families and others mourning the loss of nine beautiful lives. He tweeted a picture of the program.

An NBA all-star, Dwight Howard joins me now to talk about why he went to Charleston.

Thank you for being here, sir, I appreciate it.

DWIGHT HOWARD, CENTER, HOUSTON ROCKETS Thanks for having me.

HARLOW: I think this is the first time I will ever look taller than you, my friend because you look a little shorter than me in that camera shot. Thank you for doing this.

Let me ask you because you went to Charleston. What motivated you to go to Charleston and meet with some of these families?

HOWARD: Well, there was a series of events, you know, throughout the year and I wanted to be there so bad, you know. We had the season going on, we're in the middle of the playoffs. And this time, we had just got out and it hurt, you know, to see the things that had happened in Charleston. And you know, just broke my heart because I felt like it could have been me, it would have been my friends, it could have been my pastor. It could have been anybody. And I wanted to be there, show my support and just to show people that we need change in our society.

HARLOW: You have started a campaign called breathe again. Let's talk about that. What's your mission? HOWARD: Well, my mission is to really just change people lives, you

know. I think that all of us, you know, as a society, we need to breathe again. We need to step back and take a look at ourselves and our lives. And if we want change, we need to be that change. We've got to have hope. We need some type of hope. Some type of bright light to make us want to move forward. I just feel like there's so much hate going around in this world that, you know, needs to stop, you know. And I hate to see the things that have happened to our society because of, you know, hate. And hate cannot drive hate. Only love can. I want to spread as much love as possible to everybody around the world. And that's why I started this program.

HARLOW: I want to direct people you have a Web site, wewillbreathe.com for people to go and learn more about this. Because you said you want people to point to the solution instead of pointing to the problem. What we heard this morning from the reverend at Emanuel AME church, take a listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOFF: Lot of folk expected us to do something strange and to break out in a riot. Well, they just don't know us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: What's your reaction to that? He says, you know, people expected us to react differently than we did as a community.

HOWARD: Well, I think the way that we all need to react to different problems, you know. We have to react with love, you know. It's so easy to react with our fist, with riots and with guns. When we react with love, it just sends the right message. We saw people that, you know, violence is not the answer. And I know a lot of people are fed up with a lot of things that have happened. But we're not going to get rid of those problem until we face them head-on and we do out of love. That what you can call evil and hate, but when you do things out of the good of your heart and out of love, you know, things will happen and things will get better.

You know, I just want things to get better because there's so much stuff that go on in our society and it just hurts me to see how these kids have to grow up now with everything that's going on. We are, you know, those examples for our children. And I think we got to be a better example. And so these kids can see that love is the only way we can drive out all this hate.

HARLOW: It broke my heart to wake up Thursday morning to this news of what happened in Charleston, just like I think it broke the hearts of America. Are you hopeful?

HOWARD: I am. You know, but I think we all got to do it together. We got to stop pointing the finger. We got to look at ourselves and how can we change, you know. We want our society to be better, you know. We got to be that change, you know. For our kids, they have to see that change coming from us, you know. Our eyes are the windows of our soul. You know, what we see is what we become. If we see love and we see all the right things, then, you know, our society will change, you know. So I'm all about change. We're not -- nobody's perfect. But we can find a way to become better people and treat people better and treat people with love and respect, our world would be a better place.

[17:35:37] HARLOW: We certainly saw it play out in the beautiful services across Charleston this morning.

Dwight Howard, thank you so much.

HOWARD: Thank you for having me.

HARLOW: Good to have you on.

For all of you again, you can check out this campaign at wewillbreathe.com.

Dwight Howard, we appreciate it.

Of course, Charleston is far from the first mass shootings in America. Our next guest know the pain of losing someone they love so immensely for gun violence. For the Phillips family, was it in a Colorado movie theater. When I spoke to them, their fear was for the next family to feel their same pain.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If we don't do something in this country about the gun issue, we're doomed to see the same thing that happened in Aurora and the same thing will happen in Newtown happen again and again and again and again.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:40:05] HARLOW: This weekend, you are hearing and watching people in an absolutely heartbroken city try to digest the horror of the senseless and deadly shooting. It happened this week in a church in South Carolina. And it is one of the worse mass shootings in America's history.

But the legal wheels are turning right now on another horrific mass killing, the movie theater mass killing in Colorado three summers ago. The prosecution in that trial of James Holmes rested on Friday in the capital murder case. He is charged with killing 12 people that night. 24-year-old Jess Ghawi (ph) was one of them. I spoke with her parents on the one-year anniversary of their daughter's death.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDY PHILLIPS, JESSICA GHAWI'S MOTHER: It's difficult to think of any day without Jessie in it. And now here without Jessie in it.

HARLOW: Is there one message that you want to send?

S. PHILLIPS: Don't think that this can't happen to you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That was in 2013. Sandy and Lonnie Phillips join me now. Thank you for being here.

S. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Poppy. We're glad to be here.

LONNIE PHILLIPS, JESSICA GHAWI'S FATHER: Thank you very much.

HARLOW: I cannot imagine what you're going through and what's going through your mind this week. You've been in the courtroom in Colorado every single day for the trial of James Holmes. Prosecution rests and another mass shooting happens.

Sandy, what was that moment like for you?

S. PHILLIPS: Well, I was on the phone, actually, with a friend of mine talking about gun violence prevention and she let out a gasp and said you're not going to believe this, it's breaking on the news. There's been a mass shooting at a church in South Carolina, in Charleston. And I have to say, I took a deep breath and I went, I'm not surprised. Unfortunately, we haven't done enough as a country. We haven't stood up enough as people in this country to make change happen yet.

HARLOW: Lonnie, you both really wanted to be in Charleston this weekend with the families. I know you're working to make your way there this week to be with the families. What will you say to them?

L. PHILLIPS: Well, we were in Newtown not too long after that happened. It was probably about the same length of time, maybe a little longer. But what we found when we got there that a lot of the families, they suffer in different ways. Some are ready to talk right away and some need support. The fact that we've been through this and we know what they're going to go through, each individual again is different. But it's always good, I think, to have someone there that can talk to you and tell you what you can expect or not expect. And so we found by being in Newtown, it helped us as much as it helps them. And we had -- we formed a lot of friendships from there that we still nurture today.

S. PHILLIPS: I think that's very true. There's a commonality. Mass shootings are very rare in America, but when they happen, they are so dramatic and the loss is so shocking that having somebody else who has been through it and can just hug you -- if nothing else, just hug you and say, we know what you're going through and you will survive this and you will find a path that is unique -- uniquely yours. And that's what we want to help them with.

HARLOW: A path that is uniquely yours. It's a very good way to say it.

So everyone watching knows, you're actually both gun owners and you strongly believe in your second amendment right. We've talked a lot about that.

So Lonnie, to you, what is the change that you want to see? L. PHILLIPS: Repeat that, please?

HARLOW: I said that you're both gun owners. You are both strong believers in your second amendment right. You told me before we don't want to take people's guns away but you do want change. What is the change you want?

L. PHILLIPS: Well, you know, right after Newtown, we had a chance to pass background checks. And we had a big push to do that and we were shot down. So that was hugely disappointing. So the change that we're doing now is state to state. We're taking a page out of the NRA play book going state to state. We are having a great success. We've already got 16 states now that's got background checks. So things are happening beneath the radar people don't realize. And every day we have another mass murder. We have others join us. So it's going to happen. I hope I'm alive to see it.

HARLOW: Sandy, to you, before I let you go, I just want to show some pictures of beautiful Jessica, your daughter. I was re-watching some of the stories we did on her today. And you said it was her (INAUDIBLE) for go for gusto that you will always remember. Tell everyone watching a little bit about her.

S. PHILLIPS: She just had such an incredible amount of energy and a love for life and a philosophy of do it now, don't wait. Do it today. And if you fail, you fail. So what, you've learned something from it. But to not go for it, to not go for the gusto, every single day, is wasting -- wasting your life. And when she was in that other shooting at the -- at the mall, she wrote about it and said, every second of every day is a gift. And that is true. And most of us never live it fully. And she did. I just wish she was still here to be with us and live it with us.

[17:45:45] HARLOW: I do too. Guys, I'm so sorry for your loss. Thank you for talking to us.

S. PHILLIPS: Thank you.

HARLOW: Appreciate it.

L. PHILLIPS: Thank you for having us.

HARLOW: Of course, Sandy and Lonnie Phillips will always remember their daughter, Jessica Ghawi. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:50:16] HARLOW: Well, the Charleston shooting has reignited controversy over the confederate flag and where it should fly. It flew above the South Carolina statehouse for decades. It was moved onto a memorial right nearby in a compromise in the legislature in 2000, but for some the flag is about heritage. For others it is, it is a no brainer. They say it's about hate and you should take it down. Clearly it's not simple. It is something that is being debated among many in the state and across this country.

South Carolina state representative Doug Brannon joins me on the phone.

Thank you for being with me, sir. I appreciate it.

STATE REP. DOUG BRANNON, SOUTH CAROLINA (via phone): Thank you for having me, Poppy.

HARLOW: First of all, let me say I'm so, so sorry for your loss. You were friend of the Rev. Pinckney, the state senator there. And I am sorry for your loss.

BRANNON: It is an incredible loss for the entire state of South Caroline.

HARLOW: No question about that. You have, in the wake of the shooting you have introduced legislation or you will introduce legislation to remove the flag. I'm interested in why you think it needs to come down. And also, have you always felt this way or is this something you decided in the wake of this mass shooting?

BRANNON: Personally, I have believed for years it needed to be in a museum. In fact, the state has what's called the confederate relic room. I think that's where it needs to be, and quite frankly, Poppy, I apologize to the people of South Carolina. I've been in the house for five years. I should have introduced this bill five years ago. I should not have let my friend -- we shouldn't be having this conversation.

HARLOW: So let's talk about why you didn't do it sooner.

BRANNON: I didn't do my job.

HARLOW: Really? What was it that held you back, do you think, if this is what you believed in your gut?

BRANNON: You know, something, Poppy, I described it to somebody else. The confederate flag is like algae in a lake. Everybody knows it's there but it's kind of hidden below the surface of the water. I was the mayor of Landrum, a small town in South Carolina when the flag was moved from the capitol dome to the monument. I would like to say that I'm a friend of former governor David Beasley and I was proud of him for his efforts then.

I don't have a good reason why I didn't introduce the bill the first session that I served -- that I was allowed to serve in the House of Representatives. I don't have a good answer for that. But I do have an apology for that.

HARLOW: Do you think you have the support alongside you to make it happen when you do introduce this legislation, sir?

BRANNON: I would like to think so. I don't know that. I understand that this is a divisive issue, a politically divisive issue. But what I do know is I'm going to make people take a stand. You're either for the flag or you're against it. And I believe the vast majority of South Carolina wants the flag moved off the ground. HARLOW: Was it politics, sir? You say to me, did not do my job but I

knew in my gut it should come down. Was it politics? Did you feel you would lose too much support? Is.

BRANNON: No. Not at all. You know, it's something personally I believed, but I guess it had to be rubbed in my face. It was and now is the time that I'm going to act.

HARLOW: What the you want us to remember about your friend who perished in this shooting in all of those nine lives?

BRANNON: You know, Poppy, I didn't know the answer to that question until Friday. But I want you to remember is he was a mountain of a man. He had a smile that could light up the state capitol. He had a voice like I imagine God's voice would sound. But when I heard those people, those family members stand up in the bond hearing, I learned what an incredible teacher Clementa Pinckney was because he taught love. He taught forgiveness and he taught salvation. And his students stood up and looked that shooter in the eye and they spoke love, forgiveness and salvation. Remember, Clementa Pinckney was love, salvation and forgiveness.

[17:54:59] HARLOW: He was indeed. And as we talk, we are looking at the faces of the nine people, the lives that were lost in this senseless, senseless shooting. I heard the Reverend this morning in a beautiful ceremony at Emanuel AME church say a lot of people expected us as a city to riot. They expected something different from us. But that is not us. We are a people of faith. What does the reaction of your constituents, the people of South Carolina to this massacre say about your state and these people?

BRANNON: It says that we are cohesively or collectively a state of people of faith and people of love. And I can tell you this that in a time of weakness comes strength. And in this moment of weakness, the state of South Carolina, the people of South Carolina are showing their strength. It's amazing, and I am so proud of what I see and what I hear from the citizens of South Carolina.

HARLOW: Representative Doug Brannon, thank you so much. I am deeply sorry for your loss.

BRANNON: Thank you, Poppy.

HARLOW: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)