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South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley Calls for Removal of Confederate Flag from Capitol Grounds; Breaking News in Prison Escape Manhunt in Upstate New York; 3:30-4p ET

Aired June 22, 2015 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:08] POPPY HARLOW, CNN HOST: So are we demanding more of the Republicans than we are of the Democrats on this issue or are we just assuming?

BUCK SEXTON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I think so.

HARLOW: Because I don't think Hillary Clinton has directly addressed it. She gave that big speech this weekend in South Carolina.

SEXTON: I believe she may have said something back in 2007, I think. She may have said something -- she hasn't talked about it on this go- around. But the truth of the matter is that I think the Democrats are probably not going to be pushed as hard on this issue, for obvious reasons. And we'll have to see what ends up happen here in the press conference. I think the flag is coming down. I think that's the right decision. It is the decision of the people of South Carolina, their elected representatives. And I think the symbolism of this is good in this context. So I think it's good for people to realize that this is something that should be done because of what happen to Charleston to show our fellow Americans, our fellow African-Americans that this is something that we stand united on.

HARLOW: So the question is what happens in the other states? It's part of the Mississippi flag, too. So, is this the beginning of the --

SEXTON: I think the dominos will start to fall.

HARLOW: Buck Sexton, good to have you on as always. Appreciate it.

SEXTON: Thank you.

HARLOW: Straight ahead, we have new breaking news in the case, the manhunt.

And also the case in Charleston has reminded many, many people of what happened back in 1963 when the 16th street Baptist church bombing in Birmingham killed four innocent little girls.

Coming up, I'm speaking with the attorney who prosecuted the KKK members linked to that bombing.

Also, a major clue in the search for the two convicted killers still on the run, investigators say that they have found a DNA match pretty close to the prison where they escaped from, where they are focusing on, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:35:48] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

HARLOW: All right. This just in to us here from CNN source telling us that investigators are looking into whether tools used in the prison escape were hidden inside, get this, a frozen chunk of hamburger meat, those tools that they used to escape from a maximum security prison. We're talking about Richard Matt and David Sweat. And whether or not they were allowed to make -- they were able to make this break that way.

Also, authorities are analyzing the guest registries of hotels near the prison where they escaped 17 days ago. They are looking for anyone who knew Richard Matt or David Sweat and may have stayed there in the last six to eight months. This comes after the kind of potential breakthrough that investigators have been hoping for.

A law enforcement source telling our Deborah Feyerick that DNA from Richard Matt and David Sweat has been found inside of a burglarized cabin in rural upstate New York just about 20 miles from the prison. Also, witness on Saturday reported seeing someone running into the woods right near that cabin.

Let's talk about it. The DNA evidence and this new information we're getting in with Lawrence Kobilinsky, he is professor of criminal justice at John Jay College here in New York City.

This is like out of a movie, these tools in frozen meat? That's what our Jason Carroll is reporting that he is learning from the investigators. How could the tools get to the prisoners?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: It's just unbelievable. I mean, the rules that prisons have to work under were somehow bypassed. I mean, this is perfect for a new movie and I just don't think that these people, Matt and Sweat, are going to be the next movie stars. I don't think they can profit from a movie like this. But, it does indeed sound like a movie.

HARLOW: But what does this tell us about the security measures at a maximum security prison if, indeed, this is the case because also what Jason Carroll is reporting that we just got into us here is that officials are trying to determine whether that prison seamstress, who is now sitting behind bars, Joyce Mitchell, was able to convince another prison guard on the honor block where they were living to pass them the frozen meat because, remember, they were allowed to have food inside their cells.

KOBILINSKY: Yes. This is not the way prisons are supposed to operate. Frankly, any time a prisoner wants to give a gift to a corrections officer, the answer is absolutely no. There has to be a real division between the two entities. You can't just accept gifts and then not expect to be asked for something in return.

A lot of lapses here. How did they -- how was anybody able to place tools inside meat and get into a prisoner? There have to be safeguards and there are too many lapses in this maximum security prison.

HARLOW: Let's talk about the DNA evidence. This is by far the biggest boost for those hundreds of officers looking for these two men, is that the DNA evidence, we're told, inside of this cabin matches these guys. But what it doesn't tell us is how long ago they left it there. Was it yesterday or two weeks ago?

KOBILINSKY: Well, it's almost impossible to tell when DNA was left on an object or at a scene. You can't tell when from the science. You may have an eyewitness. This is not just a leader or sighting, it is a sighting combined with physical evidence, biological evidence. And I think people still don't know what exactly revealed their profile. Remember, they are convicted offenders. That means their genetic profile is already in the hands of law enforcement. So all they had to do was find an object.

HARLOW: Anything.

KOBILINSKY: Anything. Any biological, could have been clothing a tooth brush, a hair brush, could have been any kind of object with DNA and automatically they would automatically they would see if there was a match.

HARLOW: Lawrence Kobilinsky, good to be have you on the program, sir. So thank you very much.

We'll continue to follow the breaking news for this manhunt.

But a major development that we want to keep on top of for you at the top of the hour, at 4:00 eastern, in a moment about to take place you're going to want to see it live here on CNN. South Carolina Lindsey Graham expected to join the Republican governor of the state of South Carolina to call for the removal of the confederate flag from the state capital ground where it has flown since 1962. He is expected to appear with Governor Nikki Haley. We'll get reaction from Dr. Cornel West, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:44:31] HARLOW: Breaking news here on CNN. We have just learned that on Friday President Obama and vice president Joe Biden will travel to Charleston, South Carolina. They will be there to support the entire community and attend the funeral services of Reverend Clementa Pinckney, also a state senator there. And President Obama will deliver his eulogy.

This development follows what we have also learned today that at the top of the hour South Carolina governor, Nikki Haley, is expected to take the podium in Columbia, South Carolina, right alongside her will be her fellow Republican Senator Lindsey Graham. CNN is the first to report, according to our chief congressional correspondent Dana Bash, that Graham will call for the flag, the confederate flag to be removed from the state grounds. It lies right alongside the statehouse. Media outlets also reporting that Governor Haley will make that same

appeal. We have also learned that fellow Republican Senator Tim Scott is also calling now for that flag to come down.

Let's talk to Dr. Cornel west about it. Thank you for being here, sir. I appreciate it.

[15:45:26] CORNEL WEST, PHILOSOPHY PROFESSOR, UNION THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY: It's a blessing to be here.

HARLOW: What is your reaction?

WEST: Well, I think it's about time to remove the flag. I am not going to give a bowl of prize to anybody who remove the flag that signifies and legalize terrorism and legalized torture and exploitation of labor from decade after decade after decade. It's a long time for the flag to go. You know, in Europe they can't use the Nazi flag. Instead, they use the confederate flag. Can you imagine having a debate about a Nazi flag in the United States? It just shows how little weight black life and love and black life there still has in America even given to remove all the flag.

HARLOW: Although, sir, I can't imagine having a debate over the Nazi flag and that's makes me I ask you, why has it taken so long?

WEST: Because the issue of white supremacy is still shits so deep into our culture. And so many of our politicians, Republicans but also Democrats, they run away from taking that legacy as seriously as they ought to hit the issue of racism head on. I mean, our dear brother president, thank God, he is now weighing in. How long has it taken him to talk honestly about how deep racism cuts?

He said the other day, it's not endemic. Of course it is endemic. It is an issue that they don't want to come to terms and they only do it when they have to out of political calculation rather than deep moral conviction. That's what is sad.

HARLOW: It's interesting. You bring up the Democrats as well. And you know, there's been a lot of talk about sort of how a lot of these GOP members of the party running for president are responding. What do you want to see from some of these Democrats who are running?

WEST: Well, just to tell the truth and say, look, you can't talk about wealth and inequality, you can't talk about the credit education, you can't talk about massive unemployment and under employment and you can't talk about drones being dropped on people in other parts of the world without talking about white supremacy and its ways in which it operates. It doesn't have to be overt. The president is right about that. But too many black people are Nigerized (ph). I would say the first black president has become the first Nigerized black president.

HARLOW: What do you mean by that? WEST: A negerized (ph) black person is a black person who is afraid

and scared and intimidated when it comes to putting a spotlight on white supremacy and fighting against white supremacy. So when many of us will say, we have to fight against racism, what were we told? No, he can't deal with racism because he has other issues, he has political calculations, he is the president of all America, not just black America.

We know he is president of all America but white supremacy is American as cherry pie. We're talking about moral issues, spiritual issues. White supremacy has nothing to do with just skin pigmentation, it has to be with what kind of person you want to be. What kind of nation we want to be.

Democrats and Republicans play on both of those parties in terms of running away from the vicious legacy of white supremacy until it hits us hard. Thank God for Ferguson, thank God for the young folk of all colors, thank God for Staten Island and fighting there, thank God in Baltimore, now the precious folk in Charleston.

But keep in mind this and I want to end on this, too that when we talk about forgiveness, you notice how quick the white press wants to accent black people forgiving? Forgiving is not an utterance. It's a process. We are a loving people. We taught the world so much about love because we've been hated so. But to forgive a day or so after, something wrong with that. That's a twist of sympathy and a pathological empathy you forgiven as you have worked it through. You just make sure you don't hate. That's the key. Don't hate. Forgiveness comes later. But the press wants to accent forgiveness. We are fighting people as well as forgiving people.

HARLOW: Dr. Cornel West, there is a lot to unpack there, sir. I do want to have you back on. I have breaking news I have to get to. But I appreciate you joining me this afternoon.

WEST: Thank you. God bless you. Stay strong.

HARLOW: We'll be right back.

[15:56:43] HARLOW: Breaking news in the prison escape in upstate New York, investigators are looking into whether tools used for those two men to get out of the prison were actually snuck in and delivered to them, hidden in frozen hamburger meat.

Jason Carroll is joining me live now.

Jason, it is incredible what you have learned.

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. There's so many strange details that seems to keep emerging with the story and here is another one. A source telling me that's one of the possibilities that investigators are looking into, that a week before the escape that Richard Matt received a frozen chunk of hamburger meat that was passed to him by a security guard. That meat should have gone through a metal detector. I'm told it did not. That's a violation of prison policy. Both Richard Matt and David Sweat, as you know, were housed in the honor block segment of the correctional facility, so not unusual to get food and cook food, apparently, on the honor block. What is unusual is that once again investigators looking into the possibility that he received -- Richard Matt received this chunk of hamburger meat and that there may have been contraband hidden inside that chunk of meat.

We should also be noted that both of these inmates gathered contraband over an extended period of time, but it's just another interesting detail in the story that week after week seems to have one interesting detail after another. Poppy, at this point not only is Joyce Mitchell under scrutiny but several other people who worked at the prison as well -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Right. How on earth did those tools get to them? That has been the key question all along.

Jason, great reporting breaking that. As always, I appreciate it.

Also this just in to us here at CNN, we are learning that South Carolina Senator Tim Scott will be joining governor Nikki Haley and Senator Lindsey Graham in a news conference coming up in just a few moments. At the top of the hour, all three of them, some of the most influential politicians in that state are expected to call for the removal of the confederate flag from the statehouse grounds. Stay with us. Of course, CNN or Jake Tapper will bring you live coverage of that when it happens in just a few minutes.

Well, there's no doubt that the massacre of nine lives inside of that Charleston church that is triggered change in the state and in this country. And this just in, we know that President Obama will give the eulogy for one of those victims, Reverend and State Senator Clementa Pinckney. The president and vice president will travel to South Carolina on Friday we're told. The massacre has also triggered memories of another bloody assault on a church by racists. In 1963 a bombing in the 16th street at this church in Birmingham, Alabama killed four little girls and wounded nearly two dozen people.

Joining me now, attorney Doug Jones. He led the prosecution in the case, which would a cold case in that 1963 attack. It ended in the conviction of two former KKK members.

Doug, thank you for being with me.

DOUGLAS JONES, ATTORNEY: My pleasure, Poppy. Thanks for having me.

HARLOW: As we're learning more disturbing details about this case and the man that carried out this mass shooting, Dylann Roof, the manifesto that he appears to have written online, how key is that in the prosecution here?

JONES: Well, motive is always a key in any murder prosecution like this. This one is going to be especially so. But you got to remember that you have two phases in this case more than likely. You are going to have a guilt phase and a penalty phase. And this manifesto is especially important in a penalty phase, whether they're going for the death penalty or life without parole. That's where you'll see most of this, I believe. It is going to be interesting to see how the defense portrays if they did what the defense did in the Boston marathon bombings, and basically go through the motions of the guilt face and really focus on the innocent - I mean, penalty phase. [15:55:31] HARLOW: Having been such a key part of that prosecution in

that 1963 case, what did you think when you woke up last Thursday morning and heard this news?

JONES: My thoughts went back to the families that I dealt with a lot, the family there in Charleston, and really for the greater community. It's a shame that it took the deaths of these nine children -- I mean nine innocent people, just like the deaths of the four children, to really wake the conscience of America. And I think that that's what has happened here. And I'm always reminded of Dr. King's eulogy about the deaths of those four girls. And today we'll see, you know, hoping coming out of tragedy. And I think you are going to see that in the next few minute when is leaders are finally stepping up to the plate with regard to that confederate flag.

HARLOW: Yes. To believe this man wanted to begin a race war, and he has clearly done the opposite. You say waking the conscience of America, I know you have a take, a perspective of what it will mean if that flag comes down.

JONES: I think it's a huge step. I mean, people have been calling for that removal of that flag not only in South Carolina, but across the country, wherever it's shown. I talk about it constantly when I give presentation about the church bombing case. I show what was going on with Birmingham with that flag. It is a symbol of hate. It has been a symbol of hate. And it needs to come down.

The sad thing is that it's taken nine deaths for people to wake up and step up and exercise the kind of leadership, the courage leadership to tell people exactly what that is and to take it down.

My thoughts also were always with the greater Charleston community. One of the things that struck me about Charleston, which we did not see in Birmingham is the memorials services and funerals. In 1963, the funerals and memorials were almost black. The black community went out in force, but you saw only a smattering of white clergy.

Charleston is just the opposite. It is a diverse city full of living color and people of all walks of life, young and old, black and white, coming to remember these people and to call to the racial dialogue that we really need in this country.

HARLOW: Yes. Doug Jones, thank you so much. You have you have such a unique perspective on this having prosecuted that case against those KKK members of that horrific church bombing that took those four innocent lives back in 1963.

Sir, I appreciate you being on with me.

JONES: It's been my pleasure. Thank you.

HARLOW: Of course.

And stay with us. Of course, a big moment about to happen live here on CNN, where we are expected to hear from Governor Nikki Haley and Senator Lindsey Graham. Our Jake Tapper continues our coverage from here.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, welcome to "the LEAD." I'm Jake Tapper.

We have some breaking news, the South Carolina confederate battle flag could finally be coming down. South Carolina's governor Republican Nikki Haley is said in just minutes to come out and address reporters, "this Charleston post and currier" and other news outlets are reporting that it's expected she'll call for the rebel flag to be taken down and folded it up. It is a particularly saddened reversal for Haley, who said just Friday, it was too soon to have this conversation. Defenders of the flag say it is a symbol of southern heritage. Of course, its detractors say the only heritage it stands for is that of hate and slavery. Haley said that her state needed to do heal first after that horrific attack last week before having this debate. That racist terrorist, of course, last Wednesday defiling Mother Emanuel church in Charleston, slaughtering nine people in the terrorist attack.

Now reports say, of course, that Haley is instead of deferring this conversation, currently working with state lawmakers to figure out just how soon they can take the flag down.

Our Drew Griffin is in Charleston, but I want to start with Ana Cabrera. She's in Columbia South Carolina where Governor Haley is supposed to speak at any minute.

Ana, Charleston mayor has long call for the flag to come down. Now, we are waiting on Governor Nikki Haley reportedly to do the same. And she won't be alone in that call.

ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. This news conference which is expected to get under way in any minute now, I will step aside as soon as it starts. But she is expected to join these calls for the flag to come down. And of course, it comes amid the growing controversy and the growing fever or fervor over this flag flying outside of the state capital in light of the Charleston church massacre. And we are hearing people along with activists, we are also hearing some local state and even national leader saying it is time for that flag to go because for too many, it represents something so negative, of hate, segregation, slavery, and promotes racism.