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Dr. Drew

In Charleston, South Carolina, Those Most Affected By The Murders Of Nine Black People Say They Forgive The Killer; Dylann Roof Admits To Investigators, He Did It, Wanting To Start A Race War; A 2,000-Word Racist Manifesto On A Website Registered To The Roof; Dylann Became Fixated On The Idea Of, Quote, "Black On White Crime"

Aired June 22, 2015 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(21:00:15) DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: In Charleston, South Carolina, those most affected by the murders of nine black people say they forgive

the killer. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES GOSNELL, CHARLESTON COUNTY MAGISTRATE: What is your age?

DYLANN ROOF, A 21-YEAR-OLD WHITE MALE WHO MURDERED NINE BLACK CHURCH MEMBERS IN CHARLESTON, SOUTH CAROLINA: 21.

GOSNELL: You are 21 years old. Are you employed?

ROOF: No, sir.

GOSNELL: You are unemployed at this time?

ROOF: Yes, sir.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Dylann Roof admits to investigators he did it, wanting to start a race war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This as investigators are looking into a 2,000-word racist manifesto on a website registered to the suspect.

He became fixated on the idea of, quote, "Black on White Crime," after Trayvon Martin`s death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Witnesses told officials Roof stood up and announced to those in the church that he was there to shoot black

people, telling his victims, one pleaded for mercy, quote, "You rape our women and you are taking over our country and you have to go."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: All of the victims were shot multiple times.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NADINE COLLIER, MOTHER OF ONE OF THE NINE PEOPLE KILLED AT EMANUEL AME CHURCH: I will never be able to hold her again, but I forgive you, and

have mercy on your soul.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Joining us, Vanessa Barnett from HipHollywood.com; Crystal Wright, political commentator, Conservativeblackchick.com, Michael

Catherwood, my "Love Line" and KABC radio co-host.

Also with us, Rolonda Watts, host of "Sunday`s with Rolanda Watts," the podcast. Leeann Tweeden, host of "LA Today" on AM570 Radio and Areva

Martin, attorney.

Crystal, could you forgive someone who had done something like this to one of your family members? For the record, I do not think I could. At

least, I would have to say a few things before I did.

CRYSTAL WRIGHT, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No. I absolutely, could not. I have a little familiarity with this, because as you know I have spoken on

the show about my grandfather being gunned down in his dry cleaners by two armed black teens. And, when my mom went to the trial, the arraignment of

the two young boys that had done that, she had the same reaction. She -- my mother said that --

PINSKY: Forgiveness?

WRIGHT: Yes. And, she said, "Crystal, more hate was not going to bring your grandfather back." And, I said, "Mom, you are a better person

than me because I would have wanted revenge, blood curdling revenge."

And, my mother could not stay for the whole proceeding. She walked out. But, I mean, keep in mind, my father -- I mean my grandfather was

gunned down and massacred in the same fashion of those nine people in that church in South Carolina, in Charleston.

PINSKY: But, that was -- presumably, that was a robbery, right? Not just to kill somebody.

WRIGHT: It was robbery. Well, it is never just that. I do not know if -- does that justify to kill somebody?

PINSKY: No. No, I did not say justify. I mean just two, this guy just killed people, that is all he did.

WRIGHT: Well, look, my grandfather was being robbed. He was armed. He kept a pistol in the dry cleaner in Laundromat. And, they walked in

because he was -- you know, he added the Laundromat, so that he can make more money, dry cleaning, you know, was like drying up. I hate to be funny

about it. And, so, it was open late.

And, my grandmother did not like him working there. She said, "You know, Arthur, I am concerned. You know, the neighborhood was changing

over." So, you know, it was a gunshot wound to the chest. I found the death certificate recently.

PINSKY: It so awful.

WRIGHT: And, I want to cry for my mother because I look at -- I do not know how she can have pity in her heart. I mean to me, you know, an

eye for an eye.

PINSKY: Yes. Well, Vanessa, you and I spoke about this. I am hearing African-Americans talk about the idea of faith, of faith getting

out here.

VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely.

PINSKY: And, I do not understand that. I mean that does not sound -- to me, maybe it is faith in their leaders, faith in the pastor that says,

"You must forgive, that is the word of God." But, I do not understand this faith in either way.

BARNETT: It is faith in the word, but it is also that forgiveness, although it was said to Dylann, it is almost a release for them. And, it

is not for Dylann. It is not to say, "Dylann, what you did is right." It is to let go and not let the hurt and anger control your life.

And, as a Christian, God forgives us daily for the things and the wrongs that we have done. And, so, that is a part of the faith.

Forgiveness is a part of the faith. It does not mean they are not angry, they are not hurt.

It does not mean that they do not want to strike revenge, but they know that those are not the ways to rectify the situation and does not

honor the nine lives that were were killed. Hate does not drive out hate. You have to love.

PINSKY: Rolonda, do you think that if they reacted differently, things could have unraveled? I mean this is an example of kind of a

leadership I want to see in this country.

ROLONDA WATTS, HOST OF "SUNDAYS WITH ROLONDA" PODCAST: Well, there is no question that the faith that this people have shown in their

forgiveness, there is no question that, that is leadership.

PINSKY: Is that something you need in the African-American community? I mean --

WATTS: The faith says no weapon formed against me shall prosper. I think the first thing that came out of the church was the testimony that

this is a church that love built and nothing will take us down. That gave me strength, miles and miles away. And, I think that the forgiveness that

they shown is tremendous.

PINSKY: All right. So, given -- Areva, I see something --

(21:05:00) AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: No. No, I think everything you said is dead on. You have to understand the culture of the African-

American community and the culture of the African-American church.

And, I was not surprised that all to hear those comments. I expected those comments. And, as thousands of people gathered in black churches in

Sunday. That is what we heard. That is what our preachers talk about. That is what we stood in solidarity around that issue of forgiveness.

PINSKY: So, resilience and forgiveness, right?

BARNETT: Absolutely.

PINSKY: Those are the things, the resilience and forgiveness. Why then, are people so fearful to go and talk about these issues with the

African-American community? I feel like a lot of people are tiptoeing around, fearful of evoking anger. I see nothing but reliance and

forgiveness and willingness to talk about this things. Is not it time to have this conversation?

MARTIN: Absolutely, but these are tough conversations to have, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Well, let us start it.

MARTIN: Let us start it.

PINSKY: OK.

MARTIN: Let us start by something -- one of the producers said to me about a comment you made. And, this is a comment about Dylann and his

mental health issues.

PINSKY: Yes.

MARTIN: And, you noticed that a lot of people in the media immediately went to that and started talking about this hate-filled man

about mental health, rather than looking at the very deliberate acts that were taken by him.

Six months of planning. 120-mile drive. Sitting in that church for one hour, contemplating what he was going to do. Nothing that suggested

that he did not know the difference between right and wrong. You and I know that, that is the only thing that is going to matter in the courtroom

when you talk about legal insanity.

PINSKY: No.

MARTIN: Did he appreciate right from wrong?

PINSKY: He did.

MARTIN: There is nothing to suggest he did.

PINSKY: I agree.

MARTIN: So, why are we talking about mental health instead of racist actions by this man.

PINSKY: But, like I was saying -- Leeann, I know you have always taken me to task on this one too. I would say, he is sick, but as a sick

young man, he is expressing something about us. There is some research out there -- Listen.

Listen. I am not saying -- If he were a different culture, it would have been expressed in a very different way. I understand that when people

get delusions in this culture, their delusions take a certain form.

Where people have character pathology, their hatred gets focused in a different way, and that is about us. And, the weakest amongst us are

expressing the darkest features of our culture. And, that is what I will say, so mental health put aside, what is wrong with us, if this comes out

through people that are sick.

MARTIN : But, Dr. Drew, when you hear about the gang member in South Los Angeles or in the west side of Chicago, we do not hear you talking

about that African-American young male and mental health issues.

I have not heard those terms attached, though they talk about thugs, they talk about crime; they talk about the poverty that they grew up in and

the sickness, but it is not about mental health issue. So, we got to change the way we have these conversations if we are going to be fair to

everyone involved.

PINSKY: Mike, you heard it all the time. I would call it all mental health, right?

MICHAEL CATHERWOOD, "LOVE LINE" AND KABC RADIO CO-HOST: Yes, and also I think that when you are talking about a gang member in a different

neighborhood, a lot of times you are talking about, you know, it is part of the culture there in where they are worried for their own safety.

So, there is a difference in someone who willingly kills nine people for no reason and someone who may be concerned for their own safety and is

raised in a world that is, unfortunately, as equally violent as it maybe into some of the actions that they are doing.

And, also, look, there is no doubt in my mind, this man had hate in his heart and he was, without question, a very racist person. But, those

two things -- those things cannot exist mutually exclusive from the idea of also having mental health issue.

BARNETT: Well, mental health -- and you bringing that up when it is only -- it only seems to apply to white people as you were saying --

PINSKY: I do not say that.

BARNETT: But it is always brought up.

PINSKY: I just kind of like to talk about it.

BARNETT: In the media, we talk about this all the time, the media will go to that first. And, what it sounds like is an excuse, like, "Oh,

he did this because he did not have control of his mind or he must have been off. It is like anybody who can kill somebody is crazy.

PINSKY: It is crazy. That is right.

BARNETT: But, that is not mental health.

WRIGHT: Yes, but I think -- let us go back --

BARNETT: That is no curable.

WRIGHT: Yes, but -- but, adjectives are a good thing. Let us go to how Dr. Drew started this conversation. So, if a white person, he said why

cannot we have honest conversation about race in this country? White people who are doing the killings in Columbine and Aurora, they are

mentally ill.

It is different than thugs in inner cities like Baltimore who went out thugging and rioting in the name of, "Oh, I want justice, social justice.

So, I am going to go out and burn down Baltimore and burn down other blacks homes in the name of social justice." That is thuggary. That is not

mental illness. And, I am sorry -- no, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Let us --

(CROSSTALK)

BARNETT: Let us talk about the riots.

PINSKY: Hold on. Let us talk about it after the break. We are going to be right back. Vanessa, we will pick up right after this.

(LAUGHING)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. DR. NORVEL GOFF, PASTOR OF BABER AFRICAN METHODIST EPISCOPAL CHURCH IN ROCHESTER: A lot of folk expected us to do something strange and

to break out in a riot. Well, they just do not know us.

(21: 09:48) (CROWD APPLAUDING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FELECIA SANDERS, SURVIVOR IN THE EMANUEL AME CHURCH MASSACRE BY PRETENDING TO BE DEAD: We welcomed you Wednesday night in our bible study

with open arms. You have killed some of the most beautifulest people that I know. Every fiber in my body hurts, but as we say in the bible study, we

enjoyed you, but May god have mercy on you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NADINE COLLIER, DAUGHTER OF VICTIM ETHEL LANCE: You hurt me. You hurt a lot of people. But God forgive you and I forgive you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: How they find the strength for forgiveness, I do not know. Vanessa, before the break, you were making the comment about how we look

about African-American versus white and mental illness.

BARNETT: In the media, more so, you brought up the point about the thugs and Baltimore, and, yes, they are thugs. Thugs do bad things. But,

then on the flip side, you have riots in Chicago that just happen over the weekend. The Blackhawks won the hockey game, and it was majority white.

And, they tore down this neighborhood.

(21:15:00) They burned things. They did all sorts of things. Not made a media coverage. And, even there are pictures where there is a white

man grabbing a police officer by his throat, and he is still living. He is not shot down. He is not told he was wrong. So, it is the perception that

the media puts out there.

WATTS: And nor has he been described as a thug.

BARNETT: As a thug. They are excited. They are excited.

WRIGHT: My point is -- my point --

PINSKY: Like I said, those guys are not just thugs, they are maniacs.

WRIGHT: But, the point that I was making is --

PINSKY: They are worse than thugs. They are crazy.

WRIGHT: -- people do not want -- the reality is, just because we like a narrative to be one way, we cannot change it. The reality is, Newtown,

Aurora, Columbine, they were mentally sick white young men. They had a mental illness.

Now, you might not like that they were white and they had a mental illness, which motivated them. That was the reality. The reality, when it

comes to young black men is that in our inner cities, they do not have a mental illness. They are coming from broken homes and poverty.

(CROSSTALK)

WATTS: Well --

PINSKY: One at a time. Rolonda.

WRIGHT: Wait a minute. Let me finish. And, because they are black, somehow, if I was a white person sitting on this stage. I mean you guys

are already attacking me, because I am a black woman and I have the audacity to speak the truth. But, if we are going to have an honest

discussion about race --

WATTS: You are putting way too much importance to yourself. We are not attacking you because you are a black woman, ma`am.

(LAUGHING)

WRIGHT: If -- what I am saying is, if you are attacking me because I am not saying something that you think I ought to say because of the color

of my skin --

WATTS: I am going to correct your facts. That is what I want to do.

WRIGHT: My point is, I have facts. And, the point is, young black men are committing genocide on other black men in our cities. You tell me

what the face of Baltimore was. And, if a white person dares to say it, we cannot have an honest discussion about race, Dr. Drew. We never going to

be able to have unless we all agree that we have to lead with some facts. And, that facts are inconvenient sometimes when you talk about race and

time.

WATTS: Well, Dr. Drew, let us talk about the facts, because in Sandy Hook, that young man had autism.

PINSKY: Yes.

WATTS: He did not have a mental illness.

PINSKY: Oh no! He also did --

WRIGHT: He did have a mental illness.

PINSKY: He had boarded up his room with delusional --

WRIGHT: Yes. Yes. Yes.

PINSKY: -- and would not speak to his mom. And, his mom was like, "Oh, he will be OK."

WATTS: That young man --

WRIGHT: And, his mother would not --

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: That is what we call gravely impaired. He was held in a psychiatric hospital against his will.

WATTS: That young man also was on the autism spectrum

PINSKY: Yes. Also.

WATTS: Also. Yes, and that is important to know, because when we look at these young men, it is not important from a legal standpoint to

talk about their mental health issues. It is important to talk about whether they can appreciate right from wrong, because that is all that

matters in the legal system in terms of whether they should be held accountable.

PINSKY: Hang on.

WATTS: And, that is what we are talking about with respect to --

PINSKY: I get it. Leeann.

LEEANN TWEEDEN, HOST OF "L.A. TODAY" ON AM570 RADIO: I want to go back and talk about Dylann Roof --

WATTS: Roof. Yes.

TWEEDEN: -- the kid who shot everyone in South Carolina.

PINSKY: Yes.

TWEEDEN: When I was doing my research, and Dr. Drew, we have talked about this before. Family members have come out and said, "He was 19 years

old, did not have a job, a recluse, stayed in his house, shut the door; he did not have a drivers license." I mean what 19-year-old boy does not have

his driver`s license. You knew there were sign. People said, "I did not think he was violent, but he was an odd duck."

PINSKY: Oh, no.

TWEEDEN: He was a stray. So, we know that there were something not right. Again, everything that I talk about on this show comes from

parenting. We know he comes from a broken home.

We know he had a dad who beat his stepmom; who when she left, and it is written in court documents, she goes, "I know the life that he was going

to have that could be as normal as possible left when I walked out the door." Right?

And, his dad was a construction worker, gone four days a week. As soon as dad left town, he had no supervision. No adult that even cared

about him. You know, he dropped out of high school. He was able to do what he did. And, then his dad felt so guilty, when he turned 21, he

bought him a gun.

WATTS: I am sorry --

TWEEDEN: I mean that goes back to parenting.

WATTS: But he did not go into that church and say, "I am killing these nine people because my dad walked out the door." He said, I am

killing these nine people --

TWEEDEN: That is a part of the problem, though.

WATTS: -- but he said, he is killing the nine people because they are black.

TWEEDEN: I am sorry, this guy was -- his dad --

WATTS: We have to deal with the race issue. We cannot talk about the issue without dealing with his own admission. He made an admission why he

killed the people.

PINSKY: One at a time.

(CROSSTALK)

CATHERWOOD: I wonder if --

PINSKY: One at a time. One at a time. One at a time!

CATHERWOOD: Excessive racism.

PINSKY: I am going to kick everybody out of here, unless we do this one at a time.

CATHERWOOD: Would not excessive racism in and of itself, we look at a form of mental illness, though?

PINSKY: That is it.

MARTIN: No. You know that Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: I would say no.

WRIGHT: No. No. I agree with you.

MARTIN: You know that racism is not a psychological disorder.

PINSKY: Areva, let us talk about it. I agree with you.

MARTIN: Thank you.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: So, let us talk about it. Let us go on the assumption that racism is in all of us.

TWEEDEN: It is in all of us, Dr. Drew. It is in all of us.

WATTS: It is in all of us.

PINSKY: OK. All right.

TWEEDEN: Yes, it is.

PINSKY: The studies have shown, Lisa Bloom, sitting next to you --

WATTS: Prejudice is different than racism. Racism is domination of a race.

PINSKY: I agree.

WATTS: Superiority of a race.

BARNETT: Yes.

PINSKY: All right.

WATTS: Prejudice, yes. I walk into a room, I see a blond with big boobs, i think, "Wow, not too smart." I made a judgment without facts.

(LAUGHING)

CATHERWOOD: It is true.

PINSKY: All right.

WATTS: Racism is you are racist superior to mind. That is a very different -- that is very different.

WRIGHT: I disagree. I do not know how you are --

BARNETT: I do not think that is the definition.

WATTS: Very different.

PINSKY: Hold on. Crystal, go.

WRIGHT: I disagree. I do not know how you -- I disagree with your definition of racism, because there are black people I know who are

straight up racists. They do not want to be -- They say derogatory things about white people. "I do not want to be around white people." Look, I

read in the "Washington Post" today --

PINSKY: There are black people that are racist against black people, right?

WRIGHT: Right. Right. So, racism, you know, you have, I mean, I disagree with you on that. I do agree that dealing with --

(21:20:00) WATTS: -- but as black people we are raised -- we cannot dominate anyone.

BARNETT: And, if we are going to show our facts that is the definition of --

(CROSSTALK)

WRIGHT: What do you mean you cannot dominate anyone? Because black people dominate people -- Well, in D.C., I tell you certain neighborhoods

to watch in D.C., I see black people dominating neighborhoods with weapons.

PINSKY: Hold on. Wait. Guys, stop. Rolonda, you are boiling over with something. What is going on?

WATTS: Well, I just -- I do believe that black people can be racist. I do believe that. I think all of us are a little bit racist.

CATHERWOOD: Yes.

PINSKY: But, why do not we go forward from that? Why do we all just say, "OK, that is it. Why cannot we? Why cannot we move off that? Why

cannot we go forward?"

WATTS: Well, I think because we have not addressed the issue in so long. I think that is what is happening, even with South Carolina, we

start off with all of this, "Ahhh, and then eventually, we start talking more. I have had friends who are my white friends who have written me and

said anonymously, "I want you to know I am behind you. And, I do not want you to think this all black people, but I do not know how to enter this

conversation."

PINSKY: I think people are afraid of it because of what happens right here. They cannot figure out where the ground is.

WRIGHT: Right.

PINSKY: Why we just all go -- OK, there is this thing -- there is this horrible -- the president said in a shadow cast by history. You have

to agree by that. There is a shadow cast by history. We have been talking around the issue of trauma here. Trauma is what we are talking about. A

shadow, a horrible piece of our history. We cannot deny it. It is still with us today.

WRIGHT: Well, look , Dr. Drew, we cannot even say -- we cannot even say -- can I say this on the air? I probably cannot? Right? I cannot say

-

PINSKY: Please go for it.

WRIGHT: Can I say nigger on the air? I just did. OK. I probably got in trouble for it. But, what I am saying is that is part of it. The

president said that word today.

PINSKY: OK. All right. So, let us stop there.

WRIGHT: Right?

PINSKY: I want to pick that up right there. If you guys in the control room, we gone way off script into a free-willing conversation. I

want to start with where the president said that word. You are free to stay it, if you wish, I guess. I do not know whether it is policy for it

to air or not. But, hold the thought, we will be back right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(21:25:52) JAMES GOSNELL, CHARLESTON COUNTY MAGISTRATE: What is your age?

DYLANN ROOF, A 21-YEAR-OLD WHITE MALE WHO MURDERED NINE BLACK CHURCH MEMBERS IN CHARLESTON, SOUTH CAROLINA: 21.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: The cold-blooded trigger man captured on surveillance camera as he entered Emanuel AME Church. A young white

man, 5`9" slender, clean-shaven with sandy blond hair.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARAMO BROWN, SOCIAL WORKER: young, white male, sandy blond hair, skinny. I mean it is like we are on a dating profile.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARNETT: This man is disturbed and it is such a disgusting act of just pure hatred.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Lots of run-ins with the law. Lots of mental health issue, but nothing to point to mass murder

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SPIRIT CLANTON, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: And, this is what happens, Dr. Drew, when mental health issues meets racism meets poor gun control in this

country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Grandiose, possibly psychotic, filled with hate, sociopath. We can use all these labels but do they matter?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: I am having an extreme problem of talking about mental health when we talk about this animal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Is this an expression of something that is boiling and roiling within us as Americans or is this just one sick dude?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: We continue this conversation with Vanessa, Crystal, Mike, Rolonda, Leeann, Areva. Now, before the break, Crystal said something

provocative. The president himself used the N-word during a podcast interview with my friend, comedian, Marc Maron on the WTF podcast. I

suggest you listen to it if you want to hear the president. It is remarkable, but here is a little piece of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRES. BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: And, it is not just a matter of it not being polite not to say nigger in public,

that is not the measure of whether racism still exists or not. It is not just the matter of overt discrimination. Societies do not overnight

completely erase everything that happened 200 to 300 years prior.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Crystal, Thomas Jefferson said the same thing in the 1700s.

WRIGHT: I agree with everything President Barack Obama said in that interview today.

PINSKY: And, what I respect him for is not empowering the N-word, but as we were talking during the break, the N-word, white people do not have

permission to say it or have a discussion about it.

So, how can we ever get down to the 200 or 300 years of the history of the N-word if black people put parameters on who can say it. It is

repulsive and beyond disgusting when black people say, "Hey, "N," how you doing "N"? You know, "Let us go -- you know, "Oh, my `N,` let us go hang

out."

WATTS: I do not like that you use the word. And, there is no any reason to why you use that word other than to provocate people.

WRIGHT: I did not provocate. I used it because -- Were you angry President Obama said it?

WATTS: No, because he used it in a --

WRIGHT: And, I was using it in context --

WATTS: And, you worded it out for no reason.

WRIGHT: No, I did not. I did not, because we went to break and before we went to break, I actually specifically said used the N-word as a

point to Dr. Drew to say that is an example of people not having permission --

WATTS: No. You used that word.

WRIGHT: Right.

WATTS: I do not think it was appropriate.

WRIGHT: Why can I use the word?

WATTS: I do not think it is proper.

WRIGHT: I can use the word --

WATTS: And, I think you are being very provocative in a very negative way.

WRIGHT: I can use the word, because the president used the word. And, I guarantee you, if George W. Bush had said exactly what President

Barack Obama --

WATTS: I am not talking about George W. Bush. I am talking about you, Crystal.

WRIGHT: Why could not I say it?

WATTS: I am talking about you?

PINSKY: Rolonda --

WRIGHT: You know what? You do not need to point your finger at me.

(CROSSTALK)

WATTS: Listen, any you --

PINSKY: Rolonda. Rolonda.

WRIGHT: We are having a discussing.

WRIGHT: And, you know why -- wait, let me finish one thing.

PINSKY: Please.

WRIGHT: You know why people cannot have an honest discussion about race, because if you are black people and you step out of the box, you want

to be a republican, you call it "Sellout, an Oreo. Black people are the worst offenders in wanting to -- they say one thing and do another.

Because the reality is, the majority of black people -- it is true. Because, right now -- Yolanda is attacking me for saying --

(CROSSTALK)

WATTS: Pronounce my name correctly, my dear.

WRIGHT: OK.

WATTS: It is Rolonda.

PINSKY: Rolonda. Rolonda.

WRIGHT: Rolonda, I apologize.

CATHERWOOD: But, ladies, to be fair --

WRIGHT: But, I mean you are like -- you are assaulting me for saying the N-word and trying to have a discussion --

WATTS: No. You have no idea about assaulting.

(LAUGHING)

WRIGHT: And I mean I know it is the next thing. Well --

(CROSSTALK)

CATHERWOOD: Wait. But I mean, from an outsider`s point of view, I do not want to step in the middle of an argument --

WATTS: But, you are.

CATHERWOOD: It is reasonable to say that if African-American in front of the media were to express republican ideals, conservative ideas --

WRIGHT: Exactly.

CATHERWOOD: -- you are automatically in dangerous territory amongst the black community. It is not fair --

(21:30:00) BARNETT: Absolutely not.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: You are making gross generalizations and it is not fair.

CATHERWOOD: I am not trying to, but --

MARTIN: You just did.

PINSKY: Hang on.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: Senator from South Carolina is an African-American.

CATHERWOOD: Yes. Yes. Of course.

MARTIN: Did you know that?

CATHERWOOD: Yes.

MARTIN: And, I do not hear anyone on the stage, you know, making these remarks about him. There are many African-Americans who are

republican, who have their own views that they express. And, we do not -- African-Americans are no different than any other race. We are not

monolithic.

CATHERWOOD: Of course. Of course.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: So, to say that all African-Americans do anything is like -- it is a gross generalization.

PINSKY: We have to stop --

CATHERWOOD: It is overly simplified -- I was simply pointing out, that it does seem reasonable to say you are entering in dangerous territory

and you know that going in, that if you were going to express certain ideas or issues and they are contrary to the majority of what African-Americans

or Americans --

PINSKY: This conversation is not helping. It is not helping. Rolonda help me here. This is what -- come here. This is what people are

afraid they are going to step into. They are going to step into a pile of you know what --

WATTS: But, I thank you all, you have to always have respectful conversation.

PINSKY: But I am going to say something. I am not afraid of it. It is weird to me to be afraid. I mean I think it is kind of important that

we evoke these things. Get it out. Now, let us move on. We got to move on. We got to keep going forward.

Hang on. Something is wrong with us. Something is wrong with us that we cannot do that. Areva -- really, we need to move forward. Maybe you

have reasons why. But I am saying, unless we cannot be afraid of these conversations and not end them because we evoke heavy feelings this is

never going to end.

MARTIN: But, you know, I do not have a problem with invoking heavy feelings. And, I think whenever you have a sensitive conversation, people

are going to be uncomfortable --

PINSKY: But people are afraid of it.

MARTIN: And, there is nothing wrong with being uncomfortable.

PINSKY: I agree. I totally agree with that.

WATTS: You cannot grow without being uncomfortable.

PINSKY: I agree.

MARTIN: I think the reason that we are where we are with some of the reforms we are seeing with respect to the police and brutality is because

people took it to the streets and they marched and then made people uncomfortable. So, I think being uncomfortable is OK.

PINSKY: I am not ready to march.

MARTIN: So, let us be uncomfortable.

PINSKY: I do not want to march.

MARTIN: I welcome Crystal`s views.

PINSKY: OK.

MARTIN: And, I welcome Rolanda`s. Let us be uncomfortable.

PINSKY: That is right.

CATHERWOOD: But, TO POINT out heavy feelings and what is brought up in the wake of Charleston, you know, I cannot help but think of the fact

that we are sitting here arguing over whether or not the president should use a certain word.

And, I am thinking about heavy feelings. And, I mean this, and I am not trying to pander. I have never been more positively affected by

something in the media than what I saw from the family members` reactions - -

PINSKY: Hold it right there. Hold it right there.

CATHERWOOD: The victims of the family members` reactions.

PINSKY: You are right. And, in fact, when Areva was saying, African- Americans you cannot describe them as all one thing, I thought after that experience, I saw something that could apply to African-Americans I know,

resiliency, forgiveness, adaptiveness.

BARNETT: Not every African-American.

PINSKY: Not everyone. Not everyone.

CATHERWOOD: One of the most influential things --

BARNETT: I have a lot of friend that did not moved. I have friends that were mad. They said, "No, they need to show anger."

WRIGHT: Right.

PINSKY: I was that way, too. I was that way, too.

CATHERWOOD: That is an understandable take, but I am just simply pointing out, I have never been more positively influenced by something in

my life, maybe.

PINSKY: All right. I agree, Mike.

CATHERWOOD: That was one of the most influential things I have ever seen.

PINSKY: OK. I have done all kinds of things, I am not getting to. I had former skin head --

CATHERWOOD: Good times.

PINSKY: Yes. I want to hear how he sees what he was, whether that was a mental illness or not. And, we have to get into the confederate flag

and the fact that it is coming down now, finally. So, we will get into all that after this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOEY MEEK, DYLANN ROOF`S FRIEND: I took his gun and I hid it and the next morning, I did not want to get in trouble with him saying I stole his

gun, so I put it back in his trunk.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: How do you feel about that now?

MEEK: Terrible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(21:37:45) POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: The flag has been decried long known as a symbol for racism and hatred. It is now connected to the gunman

who killed nine people senselessly in that Charleston church.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A gun in one hand, a confederate flag in the other.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is a symbol of hate for many people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: It is so disturbing.

BLOOM: And all of these in a state that flies the confederate flag in a state house every day.

BROWN: That is exactly it is. That is exactly it is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: The flag represents to some people a symbol of war. And, that was the symbol of one-side. This is part of who

we are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: But where we see that symbol lifted up as an emblem of hate, as a tool of hate, as an inspiration for hate. As an

inspiration for violence. That symbol has to come down. That symbol must be removed from our state capitol.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: And, tonight, South Carolina`s governor is calling for the removal of the confederate flag from the State Capitol. Our Facebook poll,

asked what you think. Only 36 percent say take it down. 64 percent say leave it up.

BARNETT: What?

WRIGHT: Wow.

PINSKY: I am back with Vanessa, Crystal, Mike, Rolonda, Leeann and Areva. And it is striking. I am shocked about the poll. But, maybe it

will change as time goes on. But, why is it any different than flying a Nazi flag? Because it is part of some region of Germany`s history. If

they say they want to do that and there is some sort of state`s rights implied, what is the difference?

WRIGHT: It is the same thing. And, what I tweeted this today. You know, I do not know how you get through somebody`s thick skull that, to

black people, flying a confederate flag is not a front. It is a complete a front. It is a representative of hate.

PINSKY: Look at the flag.

WRIGHT: It says, "Hey, we think you, guys, should still be in bondage. You should be black slaved shadow owned by white people."

PINSKY: And, listen, you guys, look at the Mississippi flag. If you guys would show the Mississippi, it is embedded in their flag.

TWEEDEN: Yes, that is still part of their state flag.

PINSKY: It is. That is the Mississippi flag, guys. That is it.

WRIGHT: Right. And, sadly, I will say this, my party, the republican party, has shown zero leadership on this. I am quite ashamed of them.

And, what bothers me is that the flag we just saw, Hailey Barber, the former Governor of Mississippi, said, "Oh, the flag had nothing to do with

Dylann Roof going on his killing rampage.

(21:40:00) Really, Hailey? Did you miss the fact that he looked at the congregation and said, "All you black people are racist. You are the

problem. You are getting too much power?" This is the same person Hailey Barber who said a couple years ago or more than a couple of years ago, that

he does not remember segregation being a problem when he grew up in Mississippi.

MARTIN: I think it is also important to note, historically, that flag was not always flying above that state Capitol building. It was placed

there in 1962 as a tacit rebuke of the civil rights activists making headway towards the voting rights act.

So, when we think about the flag and all these statements about how much it is part of our history, that is not entirely true. That flag was

put there during a civil rights movement to say to African-Americans --

WRIGHT: Back off.

MARTIN: You are not going to win.

WRIGHT: Right, exactly.

MARTIN: Back off. You are less than, you will always be less than whites. And, so, now we see this flag embedded in this manifest.

WRIGHT: Right.

MARTIN: So, those that, again, who say there is no relationship, they are delusional.

WRIGHT: It just shows -- Right. And, I agree with you. This is something where we are all black people. You know, I do not know any black

--

(APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: Common ground. That is the point. Common ground is what we are looking for here. Listen, I am going to bring on the phone, a fine

gentleman name Frank Meeink, he is a former Neo-Nazi, author of "Autobiography of Recovering Skin Head.

All right, Frank, thank you for joining us. Do you have any insight into why somebody with a heritage not different from what you went through

would then think it was a good idea to commit mass murder?

FRANK MEEINK, FORMER NEO-NAZI: Well, when you are believing in the cause, I can see in some of the websites and some of the chat rooms, that

is the final cause. That is the final evidence of what he wants to do.

PINSKY: Wait, now, Frank, you almost sound as though this kid is part of a political movement, like an extremist movement of any other stripe.

Is that that the mindset or is this kid sick?

MEEINK: Racism is not a mental illness. Racism is learned. And, mental illness cannot be learned, and you have it. So, I would not

consider that. But, there are people in the movement who are definitely mentally ill.

PINSKY: So, how do you get out of this and how do you perceive what this affliction is that is a reflection of something within our society?

MEEINK: You know, what got me out of it was men of other races having empathy for me, giving me a job, just befriending me in ways. That was one

of the thing that is started my change. I started the empathy for other human beings, again.

PINSKY: Lack of empathy is a sickness, but that is something different. But, go ahead, Leeann.

TWEEDEN: Was your end game in all of that, when you were a skinhead to do violence upon other people that were not white or were not like you?

MEEINK: No. That is the final solution to everything. There will be a race war and we will separate from one another.

PINSKY: Wow.

TWEEDEN: That is scary.

PINSKY: I mean when you hear people say it so matter of factually. It makes me --

TWEEDEN: It is chilling.

CATHERWOOD: Well, Dylann Roof has been so open about the fact that was his ideal goal, not only to kill people, just start a race war. And, I

just find it so fascinating, and at the same time, heartwarming that apparently the opposite has happened. I do not know if I have seen more

outward showing of love and compassion by all races and genders than what is going on right now in Charleston, South Carolina.

PINSKY: You are right. But, there is two things this gentleman said that sort of strike my ear. One is lack of empathy. I am going to bring

my brain out again. That is one of the last things humans develop in the frontal midline area of the pre-frontal cortex.

They get the capacity to appreciate other people have thoughts, feelings, actions, agency like the rest of us. And, it requires closeness

to other people in order for us to develop that. That starts in our families.

People need to be educated, so they do not learn about racism. And, that they cannot imagine that it is a good idea. And, he also said another

thing. He said unemployed. So, jobs. It is another thing. So, I hear family, education, jobs.

TWEEDEN: He lack of love, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Pretty basic. But, we will talk about it after the break.

(21:44:20) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Is this an expression of something that is boiling and roiling within us as Americans or is this just one sick dude?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLOOM: 75 percent of whites in America test for moderate or severe implicit racial bias on a test developed by Harvard University researchers.

And, guess what? So, do about 50 percent of African-Americans had internalized racism against their own group. Many African-Americans are

aware of this. We have to deal with this virus, this toxin that is in so many of us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: There we go. Right? Any of us here racist?

WATTS: I am not and I do not agree with Lisa Bloom.

PINSKY: It is a fact. It is just a statement of fact. It is just a study.

MARTIN: Come on, Dr. Drew, you know how those studies are conducted.

PINSKY: Those studies have been reproduced many, many times. I have seen those in conservative numbers.

MARTIN: Those studies Dr. Drew can be tailored to get the answer you want. Let us look at a lot of studies. I bet if we did a survey of

studies over the years, we are going to find some that contradict that study. So, no, I do not agree with that.

PINSKY: According to Facebo ok, 60 percent of your audience does not think we should take down the flag.

(LAUGHING)

WRIGHT: Well, no -- Yes, I am probably a racist. I have racist views. On the flight coming out, an Arab couple got on the plane, the

woman had a head wrap, she did not the -- you know, she was not fully covered up. And, I got to say, I am not proud of this, but the first thing

I thought was, "Oh, are they part of some cell? Are they going to blow up the plane?"

PINSKY: Right. OK.

WRIGHT: Her husband was in a suit. Right?

PINSKY: Hold on. Crystal, stop. Your body react. Your amygdala fired up. Your body reacts.

WRIGHT: Yes.

PINSKY: That is what people do whenever they talk about racism. We have to stop doing that. That is very primitive, everybody.

WRIGHT: OK. Well, I do not want to be primitive.

(21:50:00) PINSKY: Stop doing that. We have to find a common ground. And, before the break, we said, "Jobs, empathy, faith, education."

MARTIN: Violence.

BARNETT: A mental like that is not necessarily racism, though. Maybe, that is stereotyping. And, then you are smart enough to talk

yourself out of it. You say that, you educate that --

PINSKY: Educated. She is educated. Right.

BARNETT: Dylann Roof is a racist.

CATHERWOOD: Yes. Right.

BARNETT: He has hate in his heart.

MARTIN: But, he have to make a distinction. He wanted to segregate the races --

PINSKY: I know.

MARTIN: And he wanted the white race to dominate the African-American race.

CATHERWOOD: Yes.

BARNETT: That is different.

MARTIN: You were wondering was the plane going to be blown up, but you were not concerned about separating the races or dominating a different

race. So, I think that is different.

CATHERWOOD: Nor do I think she thought --

MARTIN: So, I think that is different. You have to make that --

CATHERWOOD: You are right. That is a great point. Nor do I think you thought that you were better than them somehow?

WRIGHT: Oh, no.

CATHERWOOD: Yes. Yes.

BARNETT: Absolutely.

WRIGHT: I mean I really -- You talked about my primitive reaction. My first thing is I saw skin color, the way they were dressed, and I was

like perception.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Mike stop! Stop! Just limited time here. I want to get a comment where I want to get some solutions. One thing that keeps coming

off is jobs. Jobs, jobs, jobs. We need to get jobs. How do you make an employable person. We have a lot of African-American males running around

without jobs. Why are not they getting jobs? What makes them employable person?

BARNETT: Because stereotypes --

PINSKY: How do you make an employable person.

MARTIN: Education.

PINSKY: Education. And --

MARTIN: Investment and community.

PINSKY: Yes.

MARTIN: Investment in children. Investment in preschool.

PINSKY: Families.

MARTIN: 30 million less words by the time of kindergarten than a white child.

WRIGHT: What is the first thing you talked when you were talking about Dyllan`s family, father. You talked about his parents. I think that

is part of it. He is a crazy racist too. But, I think with young, black males, what is missing, we got a head start. Majority of blacks

participating. We have so many programs coming up, black Americans, it is not funny. It is the breakdown of the family. Young, black males.

MARTIN: That is not true.

TWEEDEN: It is true. Because -- it is very true.

MARTIN: No. There was a study that shows on father`s day that says black fathers are more involved --

BARNETT: Exactly.

TWEEDEN: OK. You tell me --

MARTIN: That study said African-American men are incredibly involved and they debunked the myth that black fathers are missing.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Hold on, one at a time.

CATHERWOOD: The article said statistically, African-American men are three times more likely to grow up without a father.

PINSKY: There you go.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: What about the African-American women that are raising kids that are raising incredible kids, professional kids, smart kids?

Incredibly professionally, successful kids.

CATHERWOOD: Listen, I see the same problem in the Hispanic community without question, though. What we have to get to aside from what about the

incredible women raising them --

TWEEDEN: Women should not be raising babies by themselves without men.

MARTIN: Come on, a woman chooses to raise a child by herself.

(CROSSTALK)

CATHERWOOD: Hold on. Hold on. Why are black children and Hispanic children less likely to hear that amount of words? Why are they coming to

a place where education does not seem to be put on a --

PINSKY: You are talking Mexican, Hispanic also?

CATHERWOOD: Yes. Without question. It goes down the line that my Hispanic friends and Hispanic family members compared to my white side,

there is simply is not a premium put on education the same way there are in other cultures.

I grew up in a majority Asian neighborhood. And, whether it was incredibly wealthy Asian immigrants or if it was people who had absolutely

nothing going for them financially, there was an overwhelming level of emphasis put on education that you do not see in my culture.

MARTIN: Look at the investment in poor schools. You go to poor schools in black communities, they do not have books. You look at the

quality of teaching --

WRIGHT: That is totally false.

MARTIN: That is not false. African-American children is far less.

WRIGHT: Oh please. You know how much money we spend in the district of Columbia? Oh, gosh.

(CORSSTALK)

PINSKY: I have to head towards the exit. Money does not necessarily correlate.

MARTIN: We are talking investment. Take the books out of white schools and see if they can read.

WRIGHT: An investment is marriage. And, that is what black people need. Black people do need any more money.

MARTIN: Crystal, you do not need to tell us what black people need.

WRIGHT: Because you just got on a soap box.

MARTIN: That is so offensive.

PINSKY: We are going to have to leave it right there.

WRIGHT: You have been on a soap box and perpetuated by a bunch of lies with poverty and blacks in America.

PINSKY: OK. I got to go. You guys can fight.

MARTIN: It is just not true.

PINSKY: I will be back and try to wrap it up after this break.

(21:54:46) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: They were 12 lives. They had gathered to study the word of God at Emanuel AME Church. They opened their doors.

They opened their bibles. They opened their hearts to a young man with evil in his heart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: This person is truly a mystery and has led to a tremendous heart break in this community and all the state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: While we had a rather free conversation tonight, and I am not sure we reached the consensus. I think the leadership shown by those

people in that church allowed us to have these kinds of conversations without shrinking from the tough issues.

Again, we heard of common themes, lack of empathy. You heard a skinhead say, he had no empathy. I am telling you, I spent my life trying

to get people to build an empathy. That is the most cherished of human capacities. People appreciate other people, jobs, education, faith. But

how do you make an employable person?

It can be as simple as that. Think about that. Put your minds to that. And, let us help people get there. At least then they will be

invested with the rest of us. Thank you all for watching. Thank you for my panel. We will keep this conversation going. I will see you next time.

(21:50:00) (MUSIC PLAYING)

END