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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Analysis of Charleston Church Massacre; Debate Over The Confederate Flag Flying Over South Carolina's State House; The Hunt For Two Escaped Convicts Continues; New HBO Film Delves Into The Gun Violence Of Spring 2014. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired June 22, 2015 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00] MICHAEL SKOLNIK, PRESIDENT, GLOBALGRIND.COM: I don't want to say that word, all right. But that word in the 911 call when this man called the police in Charleston South Carolina he uses that word, he uses that word in his writings in hatred, in bigotry and that word is simply the N result of a system has created this ugly, ugly thing that we call systemic racism that pears as the president said. And so many places and not just in one...

DON LEMON, CNN HOST, CNN TONIGHT: It's a symbol of hate like this that we've been talking about. And I would divide this in South Carolina. And my produce went in. And we felt like it was a like drug deal.

It was just weird to even, it felt really odd going and buying it, we're like "Oh, we're going to use the company car and how we're going to buy this because going to," I mean felt it just feels gross.

And so this is a symbol of hate for many people. And some people say, you know, it's a symbol of Southern pride, Southern heritage, I grow in the south, I live in Louisiana most of my life.

And so, you know, all of my life until I was in my 20s. And this is, there's not a lot about this that I think anyone should be proud of, quite honestly.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN HOST: Jamil, I heard you on a Sunday morning program saying that if anybody in this country thought upon the election of black president and the illation that so many people white, black every color felt that night that this was a turning point in race relations in the United States they were mistaken.

And I have to fit in a break. But I want you to go deeper on that, I want you all to go deeper on that notion if that wasn't, is this possibly going to be or what might it take, where are we headed, what needs to be done, who needs to say what and what can this president do in the last years of his occupying the oval office.

Quick break we're going to come back with those stuffs right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [12:35:21] BANFIELD: Yet another news conference. Official is taking to the mic to say take that flag off the state grounds in South Carolina, that flag being the confederate flag that couple with the news, the president using the N word and not saying N word in an interview it's making big headlines and it's barking a lot of conversation. Yet again, just before the break.

I went to my guest Don Lemon, Jamil Smith and Michael Skolnik.

And I asked that question of you particularly Jamil because you said it, if anyone thinks we had a milestone of the black president we're sadly mistaken, is that overstating it?

JAMIL SMITH, SENIOR EDITOR, THE NEW REPUBLIC: No I don't think it's overstating. I think what I said in that interview is that if we think that we've made it, we've achieved some sort of like racial, you know, post racial era by electing a black president they're sadly mistaken.

And I think, you know, we need to understand that we have come a long way. Now we're not, you know, I'm not a Blackman in the south in the 1950s. The president alluded to that in the interview.

I understand how far we've come that said I don't think that, you know, people give ours, you know, our racial situation enough, you know, perspective when they say that we've come so far and we don't think about all the room that we have yet to go.

LEMON: Yeah.

SMITH: And we need to really think about this is, and as Michael was mentioning earlier the systemic issues and also the everyday issues that we still have to confront. And, you know, and of course the issue of violence, the proliferation of right wing act, you know, terrorist and extremist in this country that seek to do what's harm merely for the fact that we have particular different shape.

LEMON: I also think I was a Blackman in the south in the 60s, 70s and 80s. And a little bit of the 90s.

And so yes, we have come, there is progress.

SMITH: Right.

LEMON: But as you said there's a whole lot further that we must go, there's no racial utopia now. But the thing is, is that what we have to learn to do is to communicate with each other, right. And to talk with each other as the people of South Carolina are showing us, they have -- the way they have handled this is just truly remarkable and truly amazing and we should point that out.

But I also think that the proliferation of this, we keep talking about let say (ph) the slide and you don't want to touch, right.

SMITH: You don't want to touch it.

LEMON: You don't even want to touch it.

BANFIELD: And yet you have the --

LEMON: I think the internet -- right. But I think the Internet is more powerful than this because that's where they're finding each other. Now it's easier to find each other. So we need to talk about whether or not the internet and the access to hate into these groups if that's increasing.

BANFIELD: Michael Skolnik, I want to talk about just something that happened moments ago in the news. Marlon Kimpson who's the South Carolina State Senator who checked to the microphone imploring his fellow senators, imploring the general assembly to stick it out a little longer and finish this last piece of unfinished business.

You know, he said two things, this is not going to end racism, I'm assuming this will be more than a baby step. And he also said that it's not going to solve the racial divide.

So, will they be able to do this with a need to two-thirds of the state house and the state senate. That is a massive undertaking to try to get that kind momentum. Will they be able to do it in South Carolina?

SKOLNIK: Well I hope they have the courage to do it in South Carolina because that thing is important to note that this young man were just radicalized two years ago after the death of Trayvon Martin according to his own words.

If your child, if you're a white parent in this country as I am. And if your child has a confederate flag hanging in their room or under truck or on a cab, have that conversation with your child, have that conversation and say, "Do you have any hate in heart, do you not like black people."

LEMON: Do you understand what this black means, yeah.

SKOLNIK: Do you understand what this black means, because these parents --

BANFIELD: The chances are if it's hanging in their room, there's a good chance they know what it means.

SKOLNIK: They may. But have that conversation -- or they may not. But that conversation because that child is not too far away from acting it and not they going to go kill nine people on a church, but acting on.

So that flag hanging over the state capital reminds people every single day who see it that either yes I'm white and I have privilege and I can fly whatever I want and no one can stop me. Or I am black and I am being psychologically oppressed by this horrible flag of hatred and constantly being reminded that I am less than them.

And so I hope the South Carolina legislature and the governor of South Carolina as she is going to speak this afternoon has the courage to stand up to hate. And to say this is it, this is over.

BANFIELD: So far Nikki Haley has not spoken pubically about this either way.

LEMON: But she supported the flag in the state capitol --

BANFIELD: -- the state capitol.

LEMON: Yeah.

BANFIELD: -- and that was moved in 2000 and now sits in the war veterans, the confederate veterans area, of the state capitol on the capitol grounds. And so --

LEMON: They still flies in the capitol just can't fly above the dome.

[12:40:00] BANFIELD: They can't fly above the dome.

LEMON: And above the dome, yeah.

BANFIELD: -- and this is what the mayor said this is everybody's, you know, this is everybody's terrain not just one group strange. So it'll be interesting to see what the governor says if she does win on either side of the stage due (ph) to see whether the general assembly can do anything about this make --

LEMON: If there's one America why do you need two flags?

BANFIELD: I, you know, what I --

LEMON: That's all I'm saying, if there's America why do you need two flags?

BANFIELD: I'm an immigrant, I'm an Canadian-American, very proud of my heritage of Canada. I fly an American flag only at my house.

LEMON: Yeah, but in America a capitol in the state in the United States of America why do you need to --

SMITH: And especially this flag. I hope Nikki Haley shows up with the pair of scissors.

LEMON: And maybe she's involved on this.

SMITH: You take that flag down herself.

BANFIELD: Don and Jamil and Michael it's great of you to join me. I appreciate you coming on so quickly too, we weren't expecting that press conference right away so I appreciate it you scramble in.

And we'll probably have more to talk about tomorrow.

LEMON: Thanks Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Thank you so much. With the new lead discovered DNA evidence. And hopefully dogs right now possibly on the trail of these two. How much longer can these murderers last out there on foot in the woods where everyday maybe right now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: At a news conference just a short time ago, we learned New York state police have chased more than 2,000 leads in their hunt for two escaped inmates.

Here they are Richard Matt and David Sweat. They've been now on the run for 17 days.

Police really didn't have much to show for those efforts to find them until this weekend.

[12:45:02] A credible sighting from a camp cabin in Franklin County New York on Saturday, a man who is checking on his cabin says "He saw a man running out of the back and into the woods."

Law enforcement sources tell CNN that investigators descended upon that cabin and lo and behold there was evidence. They picked it up, DNA tested it and that DNA tested -- testing was completed within 24 hours. And as it turns out, they got a strike. DNA from both fugitive found on personal items they collected. Personal items though they're keeping that under the wrap.

Keep in mind, this a pretty rural area, very few roles (ph), little sales service, it was not likely that the DNA was planted there, that's what they're saying.

I want to bring in Dr. Larry Kobilinsky , a CNN contributor and a forensic scientist and also, the chairman of the Science Department at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York. Also joining me is Tim Williams, the former chief inspector with the New York, New Jersey Regional Fugitive Task Force and former director of the U.S. operations at Interpol. Gentlemen, thank you.

Larry Kobilinsky first to you, the DNA that they tested so quickly and got back the match, is there any way to extrapolate the science to figure out how long those items have been there.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You can't really tell when DNA was deposited. But when you put it together with the sightings you've got, the gold standard DNA. Testing is very rapid now where they use in fact a cheek swab can be tested in 90 minutes. This kind of work is normally done in a day.

If it's a very, very top priority, which this case it is, and my guess is that the biological material that they were looking at could've been a toothbrush, could've been a hair brush or a comb. It could've been clothing, it could've been a spittle saliva, it could've been even fingerprints. Latent fingerprints which are in good for fingerprint purposes has DNA.

BANFIELD: Anything is a task. This is an old trick of the police passed down the cop, let the guy get to the water, you got the DNA.

KOBILINSKY: Absolutely. We could've had something to drink out of a can of soda, or a bottle of water or something of that sort, saliva has got an enormous amount of cells and you can get DNA out of the area. That's a sure -- That's not just a lead, that's a certainty.

BANFIELD: That's a certainty. Tim Williams I want you to jump in on this knowing that we can't age that DNA, it still has to be tremendously helpful but what will it do to these search teams specifically?

TIM WILLIAMS, FMR. CHIEF INSP. NY, NJ REGIONAL FUGITIVE TASK FORCE: Tremendous. My good friend Lenny Depol (ph) said in an earlier segment, it's a home run for law enforcement. This is the lead that everybody's been waiting for.

I think, you know, patience, attention to detail, certainly, you know, right now they are on a great track to catch these guys and, you know, they've been working as great -- as a team, the law enforcement agencies out there. It's been a really great team work and a little luck. This is -- Little luck comes in handy when this kind of thing happens. They will re-inform the state collect this to be made and hopefully we can take advantage of it and get this guy in custody very quickly.

BANFIELD: Can I ask you this, you know, our Deb Feyerick made some calls to her law enforcement sources and was able to get the information that there is no support network they believe these two have and that they are indeed on foot and combining those to fact. Do you think it's a certainty they will find them?

WILLIAMS: I think it is a certainty and I think law enforcement covered their basis work in case they did and have a little more elaborate plan either internationally or domestically. In United States they've been doing a great job and I think Deb's sources are right on. You know these guys are going to -- they're on the run now. Now, we just hope they're captured before any desperate acts are committed.

BANFIELD: Well, and they happened to mention that they said that they need provisions, they are desperate, the other thing they didn't mention I thought was critical was that they may have communication.

One quick comment to that, Tim, the fact that they may have actually got scanner or two-way radios to be able to monitor police traffic.

WILLIAMS: Well, that would be critical obviously and law enforcement will be careful of their communications and I think these guys are on a very short rope and we'll just hope the public stays aware of it because they are going to be the key again someone will see something unusual and be able to give law enforced that needed to.

BANFIELD: Tim Williams, Dr. Larry Kobilinsky, both of you, thank you for your input. We'll continue to watch and we'll call on you for your added guidance as well. I appreciate it.

KOBILINSKY: Thanks.

BANFIELD: Coming up next, the shooting massacre at the church in Charleston. This could happen to anywhere. The statistics on gun violence in this country are staggering. But it's the stories of the people behind the statistics that really makes the difference.

Everyone needs to see what we are about to show you next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:53:03] BANFIELD: If I told you today that we have breaking news, America has lost more than 32,000 soldiers in the fight against ISIS, I assume that would get your attention. I assume it would get tons of attention. Wouldn't Republicans and Democrats alike demand that we win that war if 32,000 Americans were killed on the battle field?

It's happening not quite that way, but that's how many Americans were killed in America last year from gun violence. And this weekend, the killing continued.

In Chicago the murder rate just topped 200 over the weekend, 31 killings in June so far. In Philadelphia 10 people including a 2- year-old child were shot during a cook out and a block party, including a 2-year-old child. In Detroit one person was killed, 11 people were hurt when somebody open fire at a birthday party on a basketball court. All of these just in the wake of the mass murder of nine people in that Charleston church.

In the news business we report on these murders and gun violence so much it's a little desensitizing, sort of just -- sounds like more statistical reporting. It is.

But tonight, our sister company, HBO is going to make it real. With the HBO documentary film called "Requiem for the Dead: American Spring 2014." Don't be surprised by the title. American Spring 2014 was not good.

You're going to see a snapshot of some of the more than 8,000 people. 8,000 people who were killed in the spring of 2014 on our soil. But you're really going to see the human faces on those statistics. Take a look at the trailer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[12:55:03] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, what's going on man.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our son in law shot my daughter. Get an ambulance, please.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (inaudible) is a guy I can't live without her, should nobody else was going to and he just took her from all of us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Extraordinarily powerful. I have with me now the co- directors and producers of this film, Nick Doob and Shari Cookson. Thank you both for coming in.

This is a remarkable piece. Look, we talk numbers all the time, this really tells the story of what's going on in America. Was that your mission?

SHARI COOKSON, DIRECTOR/PRODUCER "REQUIEM FOR THE DEAD": Yes. I think that we wanted to try to measure the lives that were lost in a single season. And when we started out we had lots of headlines, hundreds and hundreds of headlines and that was very numbing to see all those headlines one right after the other. Some of them didn't have pictures of the person.

It's like you couldn't really take it in. And then when we started to do a very simple thing of putting a picture to a headline and realizing that was a human being, that was, you know --

BANFIELD: A human story.

COOKSON: A human story.

BANFIELD: Gripping.

COOKSON: We read the headline again it feels different. And then we wanted to know more about this person and started looking what were their lives might have been like with the lives and times of these people were and looking at social media.

BANFIELD: It's important to note while we talk that you did not come at this with a bent in any way. This is not about gun control, this is about accidents, this is about suicide, this is about children being killed, this is about puzzle (ph) killings, this is about every kind of death when a gun goes off.

But the producing of it, it's just all through social media and police reports. So there's not -- There's no other track or actor's voice or anything.

NICK DOOB, DIRECTOR/PRODUCER "REQUIEM FOR THE DEAD": Well, we are with (inaudible) filmmakers we usually go out then we do just the opposite. We go -- We get as closer to the people as we can and we shoot, you know, hours and hours of footage and come back with a lot of footage to edit with.

In this case, we were looking for that same kind of certain authentic material and the way we found it was through social media. They were just wasn't another way to do it that people had been killed.

You know we started with the idea that, I mean there are mass killings going on in the spring of 2014. There was Isla Vista, there was Portland, Las Vegas, those represent less than or about 1 percent of the killing that happen every year.

BANFIELD: You have a ticker, almost like the death flock going throughout the -- it's the common theme that threads the entire piece together that this ticker of numbers realizing every click that is so fast you can't see it is a life and you're stopping every so often to highlight these lives and tell this in unbelievable stories like the military wife with the three children whose husband shot her and shot himself with the children in the house and it's told mostly through that 911 call that is so harrowing from the grandmother.

It's just -- What do you hope comes of it?

COOKSON: I hope that we can have a conversation in this country about the human toll of gun violence. I mean, it's hard to talk about it. And I think that's the reason we didn't want to go in a really, you know, political issue driven way.

BANFIELD: But have we forgotten that there are stories behind these people or do people just not care? What do you think?

COOKSON: I don't think we know. I mean, I don't, you know, these are stories that I didn't know. You don't see them in your paper, you know, it's almost like we're shielded, I think, sometimes from the truth of what's really going on around this.

And if you stop and look at it, it's staggering. And like you said if it was something happening somewhere else, we would be outraged.

BANFIELD: Do you think that this is the -- the issue is that people look at statistics and say that's another state or another city?

DOOB: I think so, yeah.

BANFIELD: It's not our place.

DOOB: I think it does insulate you in a funny way that in which we're trying in a way just to pull that insulation off. So with each number you see, you'd realize is that it's somebody's life, it's somebody's -- and someone whose got up that morning, not having any idea what was going to happen.

BANFIELD: Got up to get on your bicycle to ride over to your best friend's house and play.

DOOB: Right.

BANFIELD: It's just incredible these stories. I highly recommend watching this documentary. It certainly tells us who we are, what we're doing and by the way when you see these stories, they are you. They look just like me, they look just like you, they look like us, they sound like us that's why I think it hit me so profoundly.

Thank you. Excellent work. Thank you very much.

DOOB: You too.

BANFIELD: I look forward to the reaction to it. Nick Doob and Shari Cookson, thanks for coming in.

DOOB: Thank you.

BANFIELD: And thank you everyone. By the way, you got to check this out, HBO 9:00 Eastern tonight.

[13:00:01] it's not just statistics folks, its real stories.

Thank you for watching everyone. My colleague Wolf Blitzer starts right now.