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South Carolina Governor Calls to Remove Confederate Flag from Capitol; DNA Link Re-energized Search. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired June 23, 2015 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:01] RACHEL NICHOLS, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: The decision to come down today. Roger Goodell in fact can extend this hearing through the week if he wants to, and then he has sort of an unlimited time to make his ruling. Greg Hardy, who has also appealed his own suspension, his appeal happened a month ago. He still hasn't heard an answer yet.

So this could go on for a while, Carol. We could be back discussing this all summer.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: I always welcome your presence, Rachel Nichols. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

NICHOLS: Thank you.

COSTELLO: The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM starts now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: Happening now on the NEWSROOM.

GOV. NIKKI HALEY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: It's time to move the flag from the capitol grounds.

COSTELLO: South Carolina's governor says take down the Confederate flag. Now the sentiment spreads south. Will Mississippi demand changes next?

Also --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have developed evidence that the suspects may have spent time in a cabin in this area.

COSTELLO: They were here. The DNA says so.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He stressed the point, says, I'm not saying it's them, but he says, I know somebody broke in our camper and I saw one guy running away.

COSTELLO: As the manhunt heats up for two escaped killers, we're learning more about how they broke out in the first place.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Investigators are looking at the possibility that these inmates got tools into their cells through frozen hamburger meat.

COSTELLO: Let's talk. Live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

We begin this morning in South Carolina where in about an hour a rally is scheduled at the state House. The goal? To get the general assembly to remove the Confederate battle flag from the state capitol. And the rally comes just one day after South Carolina's governor, Nikki Haley, threw her support behind that action saying it does not represent the future of her state.

Wal-Mart agrees with the governor and is taking steps to remove all merchandise with the Confederate flags from its store shelves.

For more on all of this, I want to bring in CNN's Ana Cabrera, she's live in Columbia, South Carolina, this morning.

Good morning, Ana.

ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. We're seeing more action, more people arriving here at the state capitol in anticipation of that rally that's expected to get under way at 11:00 this morning, less than an hour from now, and those will be protesters calling on state lawmakers to take down the flag.

Lawmakers are also returning to the capitol today. The focus on their agenda today is the state's budget, and we're learning that it will require an amendment to current orders of business for them to add the flag issue back into their list of duties. That would require about a two-thirds majority to do so. So there will be a lot of eyes watching what happens in that chamber this afternoon.

All this coming as there have been more calls from national, from state, from business leaders to take down the flag and to take action now. We saw Wal-Mart as well as Sears now when we're talking about big corporations removing Confederate merchandise from their store shelves as well as from their online offerings.

And the governor, Nikki Haley, worth mentioning she was once a supporter of the flag being located here outside the state capitol alongside the Confederate War Memorial, but what we heard her say yesterday as she was joined by this bipartisan group of lawmakers as well as national politicians, is that this flag is a symbol that unites -- excuse me, divides rather than unites, and that's why she believes it's time for it to come down because it just means different things to different people, and for many people it means slavery, segregation, racism, and hatred, something that she says no longer has a place here.

But it is a tough issue, and there will be debate on this that we expect to happen today, possibly the next several days and weeks -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Ana Cabrera reporting live from Columbia, South Carolina.

South Carolina lawmakers will meet later this afternoon for that budget session, but the Confederate flag may well make its way onto the agenda, you heard Ana say it. The local newspaper "The Post and Courier" is turning up the heat. It started asking lawmakers how they would vote at 9:00 on Monday morning and the paper is keeping a rolling tally on what lawmakers will decide on whether to take down the flag or not.

Two-thirds of both chambers will have to vote yes to accomplish that. One of those lawmakers, Democrat Marlon Kimpson, who represents Charleston, says the flag debate is just one part of a larger issue.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARLON KIMPSON (D), SOUTH CAROLINA STATE SENATOR: Well, after we mourn and grieve for these families, we wouldn't have this discussion but for the fact of this unfortunate incident, but there are deep racial divides and I want to be clear about this to the nation. There is a deep racial divide in South Carolina.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: All right. Joining me now, Republican State Senator Mike Fair of South Carolina.

Good morning, sir.

MIKE FAIR (R), SOUTH CAROLINA STATE SENATOR: Good morning.

COSTELLO: You returned to work today --

FAIR: Under the circumstances.

[10:05:04] COSTELLO: I'm sorry, sir. You wanted to say something?

FAIR: Say again. Yes. Say again, please.

COSTELLO: I just noticed you're not disclosing how you feel about the flag in "The Post and Courier," and I wanted to ask you why.

FAIR: Sure. Fifteen years ago, you know, we had a similar kind of circumstance with the flag being atop the dome and in both chambers. And after a period of time with partisans of each position meeting, it was without controversy as we removed the flag from the top of the dome and took it out of both chambers and constructed the memorials to African-Americans and to the war dead.

Now this is a lot different. I think it's absolutely horrendous, the act that took place, as do all other South Carolinians. I don't believe that there is any desire on the part of anybody to -- within South Carolina to cause problems for other people because of their beliefs or their skin color particularly.

I will say about the specific question at hand, with the governor's support of taking the flag down from the monument, it probably will happen, but it still requires a two-thirds vote of each side. I think it's unfortunate at the very least, though, that we are taking it, it seems to me, taking advantage of the grief of nine families, one of our own from the Senate, Senator Clementa Pinckney, and his family, and it's unfortunate that it would appear to some that we're leveraging their grief and that this matter should be taken up --

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: Well, sir -- sir, let me --

FAIR: -- five months --

COSTELLO: Let me ask you about that. Sir, I want to ask you specifically about that because Reverend Pinckney's body will lie in state on the capitol grounds. His funeral is on Friday, and that Confederate flag will still be flying on the capitol grounds. Shouldn't it at least come down during his funeral?

FAIR: Well, yes, it should, and I think that would be something that perhaps the governor could cause to happen. In fact, many of us were asking why the Confederate flag was not flying at half-mast. It takes legislation -- I need for you and your audience to understand, it takes legislation to affect our monument, any of the monuments on the state grounds. So it's not as simple as a group saying let's do this and let's do that. It requires --

COSTELLO: Well, I understand that. I do understand that, sir. I understand that, sir, but Reverend Pinckney's funeral is coming up on Wednesday, his body will lie in state. So can at least South Carolina lawmakers hurry through some sort of legislation saying, you know what? We're going to just take this flag down during the services.

FAIR: Well, absolutely we should try to do that, and I believe you're right. I believe that we could get almost unanimous consent, and it's not because the flag in and of itself is wrong or bad because there's a group of South Carolinians who almost revere the southern confederacy, not slavery, but the southern confederacy.

In South Carolina, I know the southern states perhaps there's a differentiation made that some can't comprehend. Nevertheless, what you say is absolutely right. I agree with you. That because of the implications and the interpretations that people give to the flag, that it would show respect to Senator Clementa Pinckney as well as the other families to take the flag down if --

COSTELLO: All right.

FAIR: If indeed it's just for a few days to do that. I agree.

COSTELLO: All right. Republican State Senator Mike Fair of South Carolina. Thank you so much for being with me this morning.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, new details from upstate New York. Almost three weeks later search teams could be closer to finding the two escaped convicts. We'll talk about that next.

[10:09:18]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Checking some top stories for you at 13 minutes past the hour. Severe storms and tornadoes tore through Illinois last night trapping people in vacation homes and sending at least five people to the hospital with injuries. No reports of fatalities but more storms are expected tomorrow.

Maryland's governor has announced that he has cancer and it is both advanced and aggressive. The first-term Republican Larry Hogan says he will not step down. Hogan says he will undergo chemotherapy for his non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. LARRY HOGAN (R), MARYLAND: It's my hope that being candid and transparent about my battle will -- that I'll be able to help raise awareness that could ultimately benefit others.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Hogan says he beat the odds when he upset the Democratic incumbent last night and he vows to beat this challenge as well.

In New York new hope and renewed energy in the hunt for those two killers who escaped from prison just hours after a law enforcement source revealed the men's DNA was found inside a burglarized backwoods cabin.

[10:15:06] We're hearing more about the other central figure in this case. That would be Joyce Mitchell, the prison employee accused of helping those killers break out of prison. Her husband Lyle appeared on NBC this morning and knocked down reports that he vows to support her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT LAUER, NBC'S "TODAY" SHOW: When you left the jail, I believe it was Joyce's attorney who said that you were standing by her and you were supportive of her.

LYLE MITCHELL, HUSBAND OF JOYCE MITCHELL: I never once told her lawyer -- that's what made me so mad in this, sir. I never once told her I stand 100 percent by my wife. There's so many thoughts running through my head. Do I still love her? Yes. Am I mad? Yes. How could she do this? How could she do it to our kids? There's so much --

LAUER: Is she telling you the truth?

MITCHELL: Do I believe so now? Yes.

LAUER: But are you standing by her? Do you support her?

MITCHELL: As of right now, I don't know what to think. (END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: All right. Let's talk about the search for just a second.

CNN's Sara Ganim is in Owls Head, New York. Tell us more. Good morning, Sara.

SARA GAMIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. Law enforcement here on the ground say things are status quo right now in the -- in the search. I have to tell you it's on and off been pouring rain here which has been a hindrance for these searchers. Really giving them a hard time. Several different days during this 18-day search, the weather has just not been great. But --

COSTELLO: Boris, what? I'm so sorry. We lost Sara Ganim. And I'm so sorry. We'll try to get her back but that search is continuing in Owls Head, New York, and police have set a perimeter because that's where that cabin was located. They found DNA belonging to both inmates inside and they also found bloody socks and a boot. So let's go back to Owls Head, New York, and Sara Ganim.

All right, Sara, take it away once more.

GANIM: Hey, Carol, good morning. Sorry about that. So basically what's going on here is authorities on the ground say things are status quo. They're dealing with the rain. It's been pouring on and off, bad weather that they've been dealing with many of the 18 days that they've been out here in the Adirondacks searching, but we are literally seeing them trucking in four-wheelers and all-terrain vehicles so we know there's still a very active search out there in the woods.

What led all of this -- what led to all of this, Carol, was a witness who saw a man running from a burglarized cabin on Saturday morning, and once authorities moved in and deemed it to be a credible lead, they began to test items, personal items, found inside that cabin, and they found DNA evidence that matched both of those two escaped inmates. That's what a law enforcement source tells CNN. That's a very significant lead. Probably one of the best leads they've had in the last 18 days, so that's what's going on, on the search side.

Now on the investigation side of this, there's also some new details. We're learning that authorities are looking into the possibility that it was frozen meat that was used to smuggle in some of those tools that Joyce Mitchell was able to get to those two inmates. Law enforcement telling CNN that these two men, they've lived on something called the honor block where they were allowed to have hot plates and cook their own food and they're looking into the possibility that Joyce Mitchell put some of the tools into that meat, gave it to a guard, and there's a possibility that guard did not follow protocol, didn't put that meat through a metal detector before giving it to one of the inmates.

So that's the latest on the investigation and the search and just really quick, Carol, I want to point out to you these school buses, they're constantly coming back and forth. We've seen dozens of them trucking in and out searchers all morning -- Carol.

COSTELLO: And the rain comes down which, of course, is impeding the search.

Sara Ganim, many thanks to you.

Let's bring in former FBI assistant director Tom Fuentes. Good morning, Tom.

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: Good morning. I just want to focus a little on this frozen meat and there were tools hidden inside the -- how does that happen in a maximum security prison?

FUENTES: I have to admit, Carol, that sounds crazy to me that that could happen. And the more we hear about the prison and the honor block and what these guys could do and make their own clothes that would be dark green to match the forest outside. This almost sounds like an all-inclusive resort instead of a maximum security prison. So I don't know.

How do you get a big enough tool? You know, the frozen meat I buy, I'd be lucky to put a Swiss army knife in it much less the type of tools that they claim were used to cut these big holes so I don't get it, frankly.

COSTELLO: I don't get it earlier. I interviewed a former prison warden earlier this morning and he said it was very clever because I suppose you could smuggle the tools like a big giant lab of frozen meat and then it would go into the kitchen and then --

FUENTES: But that's the point. You'd need the whole cow to bring some of these. How could they bring that to a prison cell? Under what -- you know, do they have refrigerators in their cells, ovens, microwaves, large cutting tools? You would need butcher knives.

[10:20:16] I mean, I -- I just don't understand. I'd like to see that cell, a reconstruction of what they have in that prison and in that honor block, what they're allowed to do, what they're allowed to bring in, what others are allowed to bring in for them so they can cook their own food. I don't know. This becomes more confusing the more we hear about that prison.

COSTELLO: I know. I don't mean to laugh, but you're right. It's just so bizarre, and it just sounds so crazy.

So Lyle Mitchell, Joyce Mitchell's husband, was interviewed by Matt Lauer this morning on the "Today" show and I just want to play you a bit more of what Lyle Mitchell had to say about his wife's relationship in prison with those inmates. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAUER: You went to see her you mentioned in jail. Tell me about that meeting. What was it like? MITCHELL: I just asked her how things were. She said it's rough

because she's never been in jail before. And I said, are they treating you OK? She said yes.

LAUER: Was she emotional?

MITCHELL: Yes, crying bad, and she said I did not mean to do this, she said, but things happened, and I said, how can you do this? She said it just got out of hand. She said, you know, I was scared and I didn't know what to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So she said it just got out of hand. She also told her husband that there was no sexual relationship, but she did exchange kisses with one of those inmates, and he also talked about packages delivered to the home that FBI investigators wanted to search through. So bit by bit the story of Joyce Mitchell is pouring out. What do you make of this?

FUENTES: Well, I think, Carol, it's difficult to tell who is telling the truth at what time and what they're saying to each other. So, you know, he sounded very convincing that he believed, you know, what he was saying to be true. Now did she manipulate him? The two prisoners manipulated her? Everybody is manipulating everybody. He sounds like he's just a poor guy, you know, that got caught in the middle of this thing.

COSTELLO: Yes. Tom Fuentes, thanks for your insight. I appreciate it.

FUENTES: You're welcome.

COSTELLO: Tonight CNN's special report, the "Great Prison Escape," a deeper look inside the manhunt now in its third week. That's 9:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, are the GOP presidential hopefuls taking the easy way out when it comes to the Confederate flag or do they need to come out with a stronger stance? We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:27:08] COSTELLO: Some people are upset, very upset, over President Obama's use of the N word during his interview with comedian Marc Maron. And now the White House is weighing in on the controversy insisting that President Obama did not set out to shock anyone.

CNN's Sunlen Serfaty live at the White House with more.

Good morning, Sunlen.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. Well, the White House says that President Obama did not regret using that specific word even as you note there has been some fallout. The NAACP president saying he agrees with the broader context of the remarks but disagrees with the president himself using that specific word.

The White House says, though, that this was a result of a free-flowing casual conversation during the course of this podcast interview that was done in the garage, and the president's inclination was to go towards that way in the context of this casual conversation.

Now this was a nearly hour-long conversation for this podcast interview where there were many other additional points besides the use of the N word by the president. The president spoke about his evolution in deciding his identity as an African-American. Here is more of what the president said during that interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I am raised without a dad, an African-American but not --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. Yes.

OBAMA: Grounded in a place with a lot of African-American culture, and so I'm trying to figure out, all right, I'm seen and viewed and understood as a black man in America.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

OBAMA: What does that mean?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

OBAMA: I'm absorbing all kinds of stereotypes and ideas from society.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like Richard Pryor, got the box set right there.

OBAMA: Richard Pryor or Shaft.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's right.

OBAMA: Right? And so I'm trying on a whole bunch of outfits, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure. Hats.

OBAMA: Here's how I should act. You know, here is how -- here is what it means to be cool.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

OBAMA: Here is what it means to be manly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that when you start smoking?

OBAMA: Yes, that's right. Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Me, too. Yes.

OBAMA: You know. You start smoking, you start drinking coffee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure.

OBAMA: Right. You got a leather jacket.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: And this keeps in line with what we observed from President Obama in the last quarter of his presidency, seeming to lower his guard a little bit, talking with more emphasis about race, about these issues, definitely a lot more free flowing, Carol about his -- about his opinions on his issues -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Sunlen Serfaty, thanks so much. I appreciate it.

And good morning, I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

A defining moment for South Carolina and its Republican governor, Nikki Haley.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HALEY: We're here in a moment of unity in our state without ill will to say it's time to move the flag from the capitol grounds.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Haley's actions having an impact beyond her state, providing cover for 2016 candidates who struggled with the issue, among them Scott Walker who initially said this wasn't the time for a political debate. He tweeted, though, quote, "I am glad Nikki Haley is calling for the Confederate flag to come down. I support her decision," end quote.