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Manhunt for Escaped Prisoners; Confederate Flag Debate; Obama's Candid Interview. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired June 23, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:00:24] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me. You're watching CNN.

We are following some huge developments right now in this hunt to find these two escaped killers with word police may now be closing in on David Sweat and Richard Matt. The husband of the seamstress accused of helping them escape is breaking his silence in this explosive interview with NBC's "Today" show. Lyle Mitchell says his wife, Joyce Mitchell, told him about the inmates' plan to drug him, to kill him, but he does not believe sex played a role. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LYLE MITCHELL, JOYCE MITCHELL'S HUSBAND: She didn't know if I loved her anymore, she said. And they gave her a little attention, she said, and it just -- it went too far. She said he tried to kiss her a couple of times. She said, no. And she said in -- that's when he started to threaten her a little bit on things. And she said, I've got something else to tell you. I said, what's that? She said, their plan was they wanted to kill you. I said, what? They wanted her to come pick them up.

MATT LAUER, HOST, "TODAY" SHOW: So she admitted to you at that moment that once these two escaped from Clinton and made their way to that manhole --

MITCHELL: Yes.

LAUER: That she was supposed to be the one to pick them up and drive them away?

MITCHELL: She told me that Matt wanted her to pick them up. And she said, well, I never leave nowheres without Lyle. Never. And he said, well, I'll give you some pills to give him to knock him out and then we'll -- and you come pick us up. She said, I am not doing that. She said, I love my husband. I am not hurting him. She said, then I knew I was over my head.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The shocking revelations come as police hone in on their most credible sighting yet. A sighting backed by DNA happening -- let me show you the picture, the map here -- in a cabin in a densely wooded area of Owl's Head. There were fears that they may have gotten as far as Canada. Remember we even talked perhaps Mexico. But 18 days now after they tunneled their way to freedom it seems they may still be just a day's walk away from that maximum security prison.

So, let's go to Sara Ganim. She is live in Owl's Head, New York, for us this afternoon.

And, Sara, you know, there was news yesterday, this confirmed DNA that was found inside a cabin. But now we have a very specific nugget, a very specific something that was left behind. Tell me what that is.

SARA GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. A source that was briefed on this investigation told CNN's Deb Feyerick that they found boots and other provisions that the inmates took with them inside the cabin, that it appears they left in a hurry and left those behind. And that's significant because, Brooke, the terrain out here is really rough, really rugged, harsh terrain. I actually just spoke moments ago to the Franklin County sheriff, we're in Franklin County here, and he told me, he said, if boots were left behind and these inmates -- or at least one of them is maybe barefoot, he said they really would not last long. He said there are sudden areas where there's swamps, then there's cliffs, then there's really thick, heavy brush.

Now, I can tell you, we've been standing here all day. This is the road where they're bussing in the search crews. And we've been seeing them bus them in, in, you know, literally bus loads. But also literally trucking in al-terrain vehicles and other four-wheelers, pretty heavy machinery that they're using to comb through these woods. It's, you know, a very rural area. A lot of the structures that they are searching are unoccupied. They are hunting cabins. So you can imagine what's around them, what the area around them is like. And searchers are really focused on the things -- the areas that might be a little more cleared out, like old railroad lines, things that run along power lines. Also, hiking trails and biking trails. This is a Adirondacks. It's a wooded area, Brooke.

BALDWIN: To say the least. And we're going to talk to someone who knows the terrain very well. We'll see if he can even survive barefoot.

Let me follow up with, I know, Sara, you talked to a district attorney and he did share some insight as far as how these two men, you know, may be, as they clearly are, you know, one step ahead of investigators now that they've been on the run 18 days.

GANIM: That's right, it's been 18 days and it seems like they have been one step ahead. And we've seen that police have kind of scaled back the amount of information they've been giving us about where the search area is exactly, where the perimeters are. Yesterday they voiced concern that these two men may have some way of tracking or listening in to radio communications and hearing what police are talking about.

Last week, when I interviewed the district attorney, he told me that before they escaped, inmates inside the prison saw them with cell phones. They're not supposed to have cell phones. So there is that possibility that they took cell phones with them.

[14:05:00] Now, I can tell you from experience, Brooke, cell phone service out here is very spotty. It's not very good. But if they are, for example, going from hunting cabin to hunting cabin, there is the possibility that there are other ways of listening in to communications. One resident here told me that everyone here has satellite because the cell phone service is just not reliable.

I also asked the D.A. about -- you know, they're not from here, so how would they know where to go? He said, inside that prison, they did have a library and they did have access to computers. He didn't say Internet, but he did say computers and a library that leaves open -- open the possibility of maps, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Sure. I mean it's one thing to read about it. It's another thing to live it for 18 days.

Sara Ganim, thank you so much, in Owl's Head.

Let's talk a little bit more about this terrain. A man really that knows the area better than most. He is Jim Hall, former New York state Adirondack guy who lives there in Owl's Head.

So, Jim, thank you so much for joining me.

JIM HALL, OWL'S HEAD RESIDENT (ph) (via telephone): Yes. Thank you.

BALDWIN: I want you to be very specific. When we talk about the terrain, I mean I want -- I want you to tell me how dense is, what kind of animals these two men could encounter. Tell me.

HALL: Well, supposedly the area that they're in is up in what we call the great woods. It's -- it's pretty rough terrain, as you can imagine. It's closer to the high peaks of the Adirondack Park and the terrain, there's a lot of bogs. We've had a tremendous amount of rain up here in the past week. You know, there's ravens, cliffs, lakes, streams. There's a lot to encounter out there. very easy to get turned around and lost in that area.

BALDWIN: Can you imagine -- let me --

HALL: Also --

BALDWIN: If I may, just, you know, as you talk about terrain, can you imagine -- and you know this part of the country -- can you imagine walking around, not knowing the area and not -- being barefoot?

HALL: Well, you know, it seems to me that these men have been out in this area for a while. At least one of them must have some kind of survival training or something to be able to exist out there.

BALDWIN: We're being told they didn't.

HALL: Pardon? BALDWIN: We're being told neither of them had any kind of survivalist

training. You could read about it, I suppose, on the Internet from inside a prison, but that's about it.

HALL: Well, I don't know. It just doesn't seem to reason to me to be out in those woods for over a week, week and a half. You know, you have to eat and you have to know what and how to eat out there. You know, there's other dangers, too. Like I say, you know, they're in an area that is pretty much bears and wolves and stuff like that. But from what I understand, these men are armed also. That probably isn't a problem for them.

But the amount of bugs this time of year in the springs -- you know, in the spring, in the Adirondack mountains, you know, you're dealing with black flies, deer flies. The mosquitoes at night are pretty intense. I -- my own opinion only, I think they're just playing a game of hide-and-seek. There are a lot of areas in that, you know, in the area that they are supposedly in that they could hold up, you know, and then move shortly on to some other place. Eventually they are going to have to come out.

BALDWIN: And if they were to come out, Jim Hall, and if they were to appear at your front door stoop, what would you do?

HALL: Well, fortunately, I have very many of our great New York state troopers and our correctional officers on duty, standing in the roads, in driveways all over. I'm ex-military. I know how to use my weapons. I've been advised to, you know, keep them handy and keep my eyes and ears open and my cell phone and my landline clear, you know, to -- to gain assistance, if necessary.

BALDWIN: You got this is what I'm hearing from you, Jim Hall. Thank you so much. And please be safe. Thank you, sir.

HALL: Yes. Thank you very much.

BALDWIN: And do not miss the CNN special report, "The Great Prison Escape." It's airing tonight at 9:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

Coming up, we could be on the verge of a watershed moment here in America when it comes to race. Wal-Mart getting rid of the confederate flag. And right now there is breaking news out of South Carolina on the fate of this confederate symbol. Is there enough support to get rid of it?

Plus, as the families of the victims forgive this killer, one woman joins me live on why she says black America should stop forgiving white racists. Do not miss this.

And, President Obama sparking a national debate after he used the n- word in an interview. I'm going to play for you the parts of the interview you have yet to see.

[14:10:05] You're watching CNN. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Less than a week after a racist massacred nine African-Americans inside their church, the symbol of white supremacy touted by this man could soon be absolutely eradicated from South Carolina state grounds. Moments ago, members of South Carolina's house voted to debate whether the confederate flag should, in fact, be removed from the capital and the senate may do the same. More proof that the political moment could not be stronger. Governor Nikki Haley and both U.S. senators from South Carolina, Tim Scott and Lindsey Graham, are calling for its removal.

Let's go straight to the capital there, to Columbia, to Ana Cabrera at this anti-flag rally which just wrapped up.

[14:15:05] And so can you first explain to me, Ana, what happened, this actual vote on taking the flag down? That has yet to happen, correct?

ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's correct. It's important to note that what we're talking about happening inside the state capital today only has to do with whether the state legislature will take up the issue and potential legislation regarding removing the flag this session. So that's what they're voting on today, to add the flag issue to their agenda for this session. Meaning, they would work an extended session into the summer until they get this business done.

Now, we do anticipate that is going to pass. We know this amendment passed in the house, 103 for it, only 10 who voted against it. Now we're waiting to hear if and when it will pass in the senate. And then at that point, that sets up a chain of events in which we anticipate there will be a date set for them to come back and reconvene on this issue in which they'll eventually vote on whether to actually remove the flag. Again, it's up to the state legislature. The governor can't do it herself. And so it's going to be crucial to see what happens in the upcoming hours and days.

Also, it's important to note, in order for that flag to come down, it's going to take a two-thirds majority of lawmakers to agree to remove it. So there's still a little bit of an uphill climb here, Brooke, for this to happen but we've never seen so much passion here regarding this issue. There was that huge rally you mentioned earlier this afternoon where we attended and saw hundreds of people come out from near and far all across this state. People who are white, people who are black, people of all ages who feel very passionately that it's time for the flag to go, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Ana Cabrera, thank you so much.

And when South Carolina's governor spoke about removing the flag, she spoke with pride about how her state has responded to this. a response that includes what many say was an unprecedented event that happened on court Friday when the gunman appeared before this judge. Family members of some of those killed spoke to him and the word "forgive" was heard more than once. I want you to listen to just one of the voices that day. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NADINE COLLIER, DAUGHTER OF MASSACRE VICTIM ETHEL LANCE: I will never talk to her ever again. I will never be able to hold her again. But I forgive you. And have mercy on your soul. You've hurt me. You hurt a lot of people. But God forgive you and I forgive you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: With me now, Stacey Patton, a senior enterprise reporter for "The Chronicle for Higher Education" and the writer of "The Washington Post" piece entitled "Black America Should Stop Forgiving White Racists."

So let me just begin, Stacey, with your thesis for those who have not read your piece. Why do you -- why do you say this? Why do you believe this?

STACEY PATTON, WRITER, "BLACK AMERICA SHOULD STOP FORGIVING WHITE RACISTS": Well, I'm all for the family members grieving and forgiving and doing what they need to do for their own personal healing process. So I -- it's not that I don't find any utility in forgiving. But what I have a problem with is sort of this media spectacle that gets created out of this.

In the mainstream media, what we've been hearing is this language of healing and grace and absolution and forgiveness and it seems to osculate (ph) the -- that there's really righteous rage and anger out there and I believe that African-Americans, who are experiencing all kinds of serial degradation, whether it's police shooting, whether it's a racist like this, that we should be able to express a full range of human emotions when it comes to this. Quick absolution does not lead to justice.

BALDWIN: But is anyone telling these folks that they cannot be, you know, have -- express those range -- that range of emotions? I mean I've talked to a number of people about your piece and I think, you know, you mentioned off the top that forgiveness, you know, obviously sharing this notion of forgiving, it is about perhaps, you know, your own self and your own healing and it's what we're all taught, you know, if anyone goes to church, the power of forgiveness. But that doesn't mean forget.

PATTON: No, it doesn't. But what I'm talking about is something much broader here. You know, there's so much focus on black forgiveness and not enough on atonement and fixing these systemic problems. The people who have had an issue with my piece, you know, tend to say, you know, you know, evoke Christianity and saying that, you know, you know, God forgives, God wants us to do this.

But, you know, when it comes to white supremacy, if you believe that white supremacy and white nationalism and white racism are evil institutions that need to be destroyed, then you would agree with my statement that it needs not to be forgiven. Now, if you have a personal investment in preserving an institution that protects white privilege, then, of course, you would cringe at a statement like I've made.

[14:20:11] BALDWIN: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. You know, you talk about black forgiveness specifically and you mention names in your article of, you know, folks -- African-Americans who have been killed recently and I personally have -- I'm just trying to understand the bigger picture with you and I, you know, I've talked to people who have lost children in Newtown, Connecticut, and I've talked to people who have lost sons and daughters in the Aurora theater shooting and they themselves to me bring up forgiveness.

PATTON: Uh-huh. Yes. I mean, you know, it's -- it's -- it's a -- the language of forgiveness crosses race and class lines. Yes, it does. But my piece focused specifically on African-Americans in this moment. I'm talking about a collective group of people who are under siege right now and people who need to develop strategies, to protect themselves, to protect their communities. Again, I embrace forgiveness as an act, but in terms of talking about real strategies to save our lives, I think that we need to not put ourselves in a suicidal position in the face of pure evil.

BALDWIN: Stacey Patton, thank you.

PATTON: Thank you.

BALDWIN: For ways to honor and remember the victims in Charleston, South Carolina, please go to our Impact Your World site, cnn.com/impact.

Coming up in a few minutes, Montel Williams will join me here on set to share his thoughts on this entire confederate flag debate.

And next, older, wiser and fearless, this is the president's word. He speaks candidly about how he would make a better presidential candidate now than ever before. We'll talk to a former White House adviser about the evolution of the president. Stay here.

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[14:26:38] BALDWIN: I know so many of you know all about the podcast interview that President Obama conducted, mostly because of his use of the n-word when talking about race in this country. But you know what, the president said a lot more than that. He reflected on his tenure in the White House, and President Obama tells us his experience as commander in chief has taught him to be, in his word, "fearless."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I was talking to somebody the other day about why I actually think I'm -- I'm a better president and would be a better candidate if I were running again than I ever have been. And it's sort of like an athlete, you might slow down a little bit, you might not jump as high as you used to.

MARC MARON: Right.

OBAMA: But I know what I'm doing and I'm fearless.

MARON: For real? You're not pretending to be fearless?

OBAMA: Right, you're not pretending to be fearless.

MARON: That's exactly right.

OBAMA: Right. And when you get to that point --

MARON: Freedom.

OBAMA: Then, you know. And also part of that fearlessness is because you've screwed up enough times --

MARON: Sure.

OBAMA: That you know that --

MARON: It's all happened.

OBAMA: It's -- it's all happened. I've been through this.

MARON: Right.

OBAMA: I've screwed up.

MARON: Right.

OBAMA: I've been in the barrel tumbling down Niagara Falls.

MARON: Yes.

OBAMA: And a -- and --

MARON: Fearless.

OBAMA: You know, I emerged and I lived. And that's always the -- that's such a liberating feeling.

MARON: Absolutely.

OBAMA: Right?

MARON: Yes.

OBAMA: That's one of the benefits of age. It almost compensates for the fact that I can't play basketball anymore.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's talk about this with someone who definitely witnessed Obama's transformation to this fearless president. He is CNN political commentator and former top aid to the president, Dan Pfeiffer.

Dan, great to have you on.

DAN PFEIFFER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thank you, Brooke. Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: You know, listen, you were -- you were there. You were his chief coms guy during all of these Niagara Falls moment. I mean first question would be, what moments do you think he's alluding to?

PFEIFFER: Well, I think there are political moments, legislative moments. In the 2008 campaign when we won Iowa and then lost New Hampshire. When, you know, in the White House, whether it was the darkest days when his popularity was down following the debt ceiling debacle or when people thought the Affordable Care Act was going to go down and every time he bounced back. And every time he bounced back, it gave him more confidence and all of us, frankly, more confidence that each of these things were survivable and that we would learn from them and then be stronger coming out of it.

And you know this is -- I -- this conversation he was having on the podcast is a conversation that all of us had in the White House with him many times because it's like -- it's very -- this is the true Obama he had there in the garage that day.

BALDWIN: You know, when he was asked about one of the areas in which he's really improved as president, and you're so pertinent to this as his coms guy, he basically said, you learn as you go, not just enough to get it right, but to communicate it well enough that it's digestible and you can move the needle of public opinion.

PFEIFFER: Uh-huh.

BALDWIN: What do you -- just from your, you know, special perch at the White House, when you heard that, what did you make of that?

[14:29:35] PFEIFFER: Well, this is also a conversation I've had with the president many times over the last six years or so. In the early days, I think we were so focused on solving all the immediate crises of the financial crisis, all the policy challenges we had when we were coming in, taking over for a Republican president, that what the president would say is he lost the thread (ph) of his story. And over the course of time, he has realized -- he's been able to weave that story together better and also to see the power of slowly over time, even if you can't get legislative action, to move the country towards a better, more progressive end, whether that's on marriage equality or on more progressive economics or immigration.