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Dr. Drew
New Pictures of Caitlyn Jenner. Aired 9:00-10:00p ET.
Aired June 25, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:12] DR DREW PINSKY, HOST: Tonight, new pictures of Caitlyn Jenner after her transition and why some people hate what she`s doing and are not
afraid to say so.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And a man who says he made a huge mistake by having had sexual reassignment surgery. It all starts right now with the Top of the Feed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: A pastor in Arizona tells his congregation at Faithful Word Baptist Church he hopes Caitlyn Jenner "dies and goes to hell." Take a
look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVEN ANDERSON: You know this week there`s this filthy sodomite picture is everywhere and people are showing this transvestite, or transgender or
whatever this guy is Bruce Jenner has basically mutilated his body apparently. And I mean this filthy pervert is just like on all these
magazine covers and just everywhere. Literally hundreds of millions of people are being subjected to looking at a trans freak. I have no love -
no love for this Bruce freak.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Amen.
ANDERSON: I hope he dies today, I hope he dies and goes to hell, he`s disgusting, he`s filthy, he`s reprobate. But yet today people think I`m
crazy. Yes you`re right I`m crazy because I think that every man should keep his privy member in place. I`m nuts. You say well you know what do I
pray for? Pray for your needs and pray for Bruce Jenner to die and go to hell, there`s something to pray for. So you`ve got five nice things to
pray for. Let`s bow and have word of prayer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us to discuss Vanessa Barnett from Hiphollywood.com. Emily Roberts, Psychotherapist, author of Express Yourself a Teen Girls
Guide to Speaking Up and Being Who You Are and Michael Catherwood My Loveline and KBC Radio Co-Host.
Emily you seemed to have a strong reaction to that guy. What are you thinking?
ROBERTS: It`s shocking that he`s talking to so many people about this and using the word die. I mean this is so dangerous to be teaching people.
PINSKY: So he could be ultimately inciting hate, violence.
BARNETT: Absolutely but let`s be clear he got like one Amen and half of a snap. Like nobody was really filling his message and it`s unfortunate
because as a Christian like when people speak like that it looks bad on the entire community. But we are supposed to be promoting love, love for
everyone. Even if we don`t agree with certain choices, it`s about love.
(APPLAUSE)
PINSKY: So using the bible to harm someone is misuse of the bible right?
BARNETT: But we`re all sinners, you`re not supposed to take the bible and (inaudible) everybody .
PINSKY: I don`t know about - I don`t know about you Vanessa but .
BARNETT: You`re not supposed to beat everyone with it and you`re not supposed to condemn someone to hell. Like who the hell do you think you
are?
PINSKY: And this is not the first time this pastor has been in the headline for saying some wild stuff.
In 2014 he said "If you execute the homos like God recommends you wouldn`t have all the Aids running rampant."
Then in 2009 "I`m going to pray that he [Obama] dies and goes to hell."
CATHERWOOD: Isn`t that against the law?
PINSKY: He`s not saying he`s going to kill the President, he just wishes the President would die.
CATHERWOOD: Well I honestly
(LAUGHING)
CATHERWOOD: In that last sermon the one about Caitlyn Jenner, he kept saying it and we - our kids, look around you, our children have to be
exposed to this. Honestly I mean this sincerely I would much rather my child is exposed to transgender than that kind of language or wishing death
upon someone.
(APPLAUSE)
CATHERWOOD: It`s really, I mean that`s a - that`s a grotesque abuse of you know human interaction.
PINSKY: Vanessa what I keep hearing from Christian sort of establishment is that it`s a world view that`s being sort of taken down by people like -
by Caitlyn Jenner. But then this guy is (inaudible) violence and hatred, isn`t that a world view that`s coming apart.
BARNETT: And I don`t think anyone would in the community would agree with him either. I think what happens is that we do have a certain cult that we
live by. We do live by the bible. We do believe what the bible says
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARNETT: But also you can`t believe one half of the bible without believing the other and God loved everyone, everyone is God`s child. So when you
speak that way and want someone to die because of their choices, you can say I don`t agree with those choices I would never recommend those choices,
I don`t understand those choices.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BARNETT: But when you say you want someone to die and go to hell, that is not of God.
PINSKY: According to the church`s website that pastor "holds no college degree but has well over 140 chapters of the bible memorized word for
word."
CATHERWOOD: Well, so what, I mean I memorized Scarface word for word does it make me capable of telling you about drug dealing, it`s like.
PINSKY: In the audience I have Aurora Persichetti, sorry Aurora, a transgender YouTuber and I`m wondering - you`re brother also a transgender,
how do you guys react to this?
AURORA PERSICHETTI: Well it`s hard - where to even start, I don`t even know.
PINSKY: How do you .
SACHA PERSICHETTI: Well for me I was just talking to my mom actually about it this morning I personally have gone through calling myself all of those
things and having that reaction toward the community.
[21:05:01] PINSKY: Meaning wanting to harm yourself?
SACHA PERSICHETTI: Well just thinking I`m messed up, I shouldn`t love myself. I`m you know everything that everyone is saying bad things about
the transgender community I`ve said it to myself many times and had to find a way to kind of breakthrough that in order to love myself.
So it`s kind of weird that I can find it so understandable that people would have that reaction `cause I`ve been there, you know. And I was able
to get past it `cause loving myself is the only thing I can do.
PINSKY: Aurora, can you relate to that?
AURORA PERSICHETTI: Yes, well that video was like absolutely ridiculous, I don`t even know why that needs to be like discussed first of all. `Cause
that was like, really.
PINSKY: Well I`ll tell you why - I`ll tell you why. I keep hearing the transgender community feels attacked feels under you know being judged, and
your brother just said the same thing that he was taking it on himself. I mean not only were other people attacking him he was attacking himself. I
want to understand that. I don`t experience that in my life and where is that coming, why do you feel that way. And then I hear something like that
and it starts to make sense to me. But that`s not the average experience out in the world though is it?
AURORA PERSICHETTI: Well I still - even though I`m like I say I`m happy with myself, I look in the mirror I`m like you`re beautiful or I hear
people say you`re so confident and like here on TV. I still have such a hard time loving myself and I think that`s the case for everybody and
everybody`s fighting .
CATHERWOOD: I also think it`s important to expose and let this type of hatred be seen because a lot of times you know the word trans phobic, or
homophobic or racist gets thrown around and you know in my opinion a lot of times its misguided and you need to show this kind of stuff to expose what
real hatred is. What real narrow-minded thinking is. And to see like what - that that truly exists. And that`s not - that`s not mispronouncing
pronouns, that`s not getting your language (inaudible). That`s hatred.
ROBERTS: The problem is is in a leadership role and when someone`s already feeling uncomfortable with the skin they`re in right. When a leader comes
up there and says some things so damaging and so hateful it can really impact other people, just like what you were saying earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: It can reinforce something that you`re struggling with and that`s so, so dangerous to somebody who`s feeling really insecure with who they
are (inaudible).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me from the audience I have James White. He`s Director of Alpha and Omega Ministries. And James you, you don`t agree with that guy
but you also don`t agree with Caitlyn Jenner`s public coming out.
JAMES WHITE, DIRECTOR OF ALPHA AND OMEGA MINISTRIES: That`s true. It`s unfortunate that Stephen Anderson is even getting the press time that he`s
getting `cause that`s why he does what he does. Believe me he`s preached more sermons against me personally than everybody else combined. So
unfortunately in Phoenix we know a lot about this fellow.
But unfortunately that also distracts from the real discussion and that is when we`re talking about what happened in regards to the Jenner situation,
are we talking about something which is good for him and his family, and his grandchildren? Or is there something that could have been better?
Unfortunately that distracts from it.
PINSKY: What could have been - what could have been better?
WHITE: Well, I`m a grandfather like he is. And I cannot imagine changing the relationship that I have with my wife, with my children, with my
grandchildren in doing what he did. I wish he could have found someone who could have encouraged him to see that there is a purpose in the way, from a
Christian world view - a believing Christian world view, not the Stephen Anderson world view.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WHITE: That he was created by God for a purpose and that he can find that purpose if he would but pursue it and get the help to do so from the
believing community.
PINSKY: And let me switch over to you guys who`ve been before and after transition. What if somebody had approached you like that, either of you?
Would that have made a difference would it have reinforced your negative feelings about yourself? Or how would that have been received?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SACHA PERSICHETTI: I think with anything it just comes down to you finding your way. No-one - it might be the way people have told you is the
best way but until you come to it yourself you`re not going to go through it the same way and for me I`ve tried every different - I`ve tried to be
really feminine and do this. I`ve tried to do the other way. You know gone about a lot of ways that I felt was right or people told me too and
until everything clicked for me in the path that I have now, have I felt confident enough to take it. So I don`t know what the case is for other
people but I know for myself I had to come to it on my own.
AURORA PERSICHETTI: And the way that we`re created trans people, I was born with a female brain. You do a cat scan of us we were born with the
brain of a man, brain of a woman. So we`re not changing something we`re just making things right and externally becoming who we are inside.
PINSKY: Next up Caitlyn Jenner is being honored at the SBEs with the Arthur Ashe Courage Award and others are being thought of as perhaps more
deserving. We`ll get into that after this.
(APPLAUSE)
(BEGIN COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(END COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:14:30] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re talking about somebody that had the best plastic surgery, the best make up, the best photographer, the best
clothes, and the best photo shop artist.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is saving lives considering how many transgender people commit suicide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is not a woman, God made man and woman. He made men and women for a reason and Bruce Jenner is destroying what God created.
PINSKY: We are talking about Caitlyn Jenner and how some people have reacted since her transition became public. I`m back with Vanessa, Emily
and Mike.
James White who opposed Caitlyn`s transition in our audience. And James you became upset last time you were on the show with us and you responded
on YouTube to us, we`re going to take a look at that, I`ve not seen it yet.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WHITE: Bruce Jenner is not a woman. My wife is a woman. Bruce Jenner will never be what my wife has been her entire life. And I am offended
that anyone would compare him to her. It`s not just homosexuals or people who mutilate their bodies, pretend to be a gender they`re not or whatever
else it is. It`s all of us. Every single one of us. Abide under the wrath of God. That`s what Jesus said. You simply have to say I don`t like
Jesus.
PINSKY: James, why does God care?
WHITE: Why does God care?
[APPLAUSE]
WHITE: Because in his .
PINSKY: No but I mean if these people are happy and are not hurting anybody and maybe living a productive life you know?
WHITE: God cares about every one of us, he made us for his glory and he gave us direction in Jesus Christ as to how we`re to live. So he cares so
much that he actually came into his own creation in the person of Jesus Christ.
PINSKY: But why does he care about transgenders? Not whether he cares about humans, why does he care about .
WHITE: Well because and Jesus is teaching the gift of maleness and femaleness is just that. It`s a good gift from God and it`s central to the
aspect of how we are to relate to one another, how we are to have children, the foundation we give to society.
PINSKY: And so people that are ambiguous genitalia or XXY, or XYY genetically those are not God`s people?
WHITE: You brought that up last time and yet no-one that we`re talking about is that.
PINSKY: No but I wonder why does God not care about those people?
WHITE: We live in a fallen - we live in a fallen world and there are obviously situations a very small number and we are to stand with those
people. But that`s not we`re talking about here. We`re talking about actually saying that we as individuals can, in our minds, determine what
reality is going to be even when that is against the reality that we see around us. We see it in the news right now with the transracial stuff.
It`s the same thing. Does man have the right to make that kind of change?
ROBERTS: And do you have the right to tell people that they`re not deserving of God?
WHITE: The question would be does God have the right to determine what he has (inaudible).
ROBERTS: But I`m asking you - I`m asking you.
WHITE: Well I`m not taking the place of God ma`am. I`m simply saying if God has spoken with clarity then we need to listen to what he has said.
ROBERTS: OK.
WHITE: You`re shifting that over to me and that`s .
ROBERTS: But my question is what do you do with somebody who is suffering inside? What do you do with someone like that that comes to and says you
know what I don`t feel good about myself right now, I don`t feel safe with myself. What do you do?
WHITE: We introduce them to what the scriptures say they have been called to be. And you would then tell them the spirit of God well it`s just a
person who desires to do Gods will to accomplish.
(CROSS-TALK)
PINSKY: That`s what the (inaudible) told their son by the way.
CATHERWOOD: Right, but also I`m curious - I`m curious if, you know and I`m asking out of general curiosity. If Christ could live, exist as the
Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Why couldn`t a child of God exist as a man or a woman .
WHITE: You don`t seem to understand Christian teaching
CATHERWOOD: I don`t, I don`t.
WHITE `cause we don`t believe that Christ is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He`s only the son, he`s not the father nor the spirit, so I can`t
answer the question.
CATHERWOOD: But Christ can exist in the form to which you find him to be most effective am I correct? I mean some people`s view .
WHITE: Not from Jesus it`s not.
CATHERWOOD: The paintings I`ve seen of Christ vary greatly. I mean there`s a tremendous variety in images of Christ.
PINSKY: Let me - let me get, I want to get some of the transgender youth in here. I`ve got Jade Ponce she`s a transgender YouTuber as well. Jade
you`ve heard this conversation what do you think?
JADE PONCE: I just feel kind of bad, I couldn`t imagine living my life with so much hate in my heart. I`m very spiritual, I`m religious. Ever
since the beginning I know God made me this way and I still love God, nothing`s changed in that relationship.
DR. DREW: So Jade I want to ask you something. From your standpoint, Aurora I`ll ask you the same question, so from your standpoint God made you
what you are and you`re now more living - more consistently with how God made you as you see it?
PONCE: Yes, absolutely.
PINSKY: Hold on. Aurora is that correct?
AURORA PERSICHETTI: I absolutely believe that.
PINSKY: Sacha is that correct?
SACHA PERSICHETTI: Oh yes. And I was also going to actually comment on what he was saying about how before I came to this I was not nearly as
loving or I couldn`t be as good of a person to anyone around me that I wanted to be.
PINSKY: Did you try - did you try
SACHA PERSICHETTI: I tried yes. I thought I was and then as soon as I really .
PINSKY: No but did you try any spiritual or religious (inaudible)?
SACHA PERSICHETTI: Oh yes, yes of course. Like I tried a lot of things and finally was able to you know come at peace with myself and then love
everyone around me.
PINSKY: I got to say James as a clinician this is my problem, I`m into what helps people. That`s my job. Not to live by any doctor other than
what is you know good for people, human beings living in this world. And if this worked what you are suggesting, just like with the Duggars, if that
worked, great. Good for them. It doesn`t work. We know that as clinicians that`s why doctors are participating in this.
WHITE: But Dr. Drew it was fascinating that you were the one on the last program we did constantly bringing up the number of suicides .
PINSKY: Yes.
WHITE: That take place after this.
PINSKY: Yes.
WHITE: Which is an issue that has to be brought up. And secondly when we talk about loving from the Christian perspective the first person we are to
love is God. And then we`re to allow that reflection to identify who we are and how we are to be loving in his sight, not the other way around.
(CROSS-TALK)
PINSKY: Vanessa, Vanessa.
[21:20:07] BARNETT: I don`t think it`s fair to say that this man has hate in his heart because he has a certain belief that you all don`t agree with,
that`s not fair.
PINSKY: I agree. No I agree.
BARNETT: That`s not fair he`s been .
PINSKY: Well help us Vanessa help us understand.
(APPLAUSE)
BARNETT: (inaudible) in how he feels because I don`t have to agree with everything that you do. Caitlyn Jenner might light - not like some of the
things I do but I don`t - that doesn`t mean I have hate in my heart because I don`t think that you should go around changing the body that God gave
you. If God made you that way with certain body parts who`s to say that you`re now supposed to go cut those off if God gave you the brain that you
say he has to live as a certain type, that`s not hateful, that`s just not agreeing with you.
CATHERWOOD: To be fair I don`t think - and to be fair I agree with you Vanessa to lump Mr. White in with people who are being hateful I think is
unfair. I mean he doesn`t necessarily agree with the transgender community but also I think he - I don`t hear you espousing any hate, I really don`t.
PINSKY: Jade I want to go to you, Jade you had a comment you want to make.
PONCE: Oh I just wanted to clarify real quick, I didn`t mean that he had hate in his heart I meant like other people (inaudible).
PINSKY: Fine. OK. Another question from the audience, go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wanted to say it`s more of a comment rather than a question but I agree totally with you ..
PINSKY: With Vanessa?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. As a Christian community my personal belief is that we are created in the image of God and that God has a purpose for
creating us whether a man or woman. My heart breaks for transgenders and the struggle that I hear them describe. I`m filled with compassion and
love for them and I can only say .
PINSKY: Why don`t you tell the couple, they`re here, I mean to see if they believe you or if help somebody (inaudible).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I honestly do. Like I can - I`m brought to tears at your struggle. And I only wish that there were people around you
that could pray for you and help you feel better because all I can say is that even in our skin those of us you know we struggle too and there are
times where we`re insecure in our own skin too and there are times when we feel like you know the task before us is too great and we doubt ourselves
and we wish we were more confident. So .
PINSKY: Let`s let Aurora respond. Go ahead Aurora, you seemed moved by that.
AURORA PERSICHETTI: Yes, I - we are, we do struggle there are definitely things day to day that I`m very - that get me very depressed and very upset
but this is really for lots of us it`s a really happy time.
SACHA PERSICHETTI: It`s like the best year of my life.
AURORA PERSICHETTI: Exactly we`re realizing like who we really are and we`re becoming who we`ve always been. And so there is a struggle though.
I think it comes more from other people.
PINSKY: Right, and James ultimately you said it`s a world view. That the world view that you have, that you adhere to is deteriorating or changing
or being adulterated or something.
WHITE: It`s the world view that gave rise to our society and our laws that`s why we`re having so much difficulty and so many struggles, is
because that world view is what gave the foundation for our understanding.
(CROSS-TALK)
CATHERWOOD: Doesn`t the majority of this world that we call earth have the world view that Allah is God? I mean
ROBERTS: Wait, wait, wait.
CATHERWOOD: The majority of earth are Muslims.
PINSKY: Buddhist, Hindu? They`re certainly not Christian.
ROBERTS: I just think this is so psychologically .
(CROSS-TALK)
ROBERTS: This is - this is so psychologically damaging to think that somebody who is struggling on the inside can`t go to their church and be
accepted. I mean that`s got to really suck. I`m so disappointed with the fact that I see all these suicides right, we see all this happening. Where
are they supposed to go? Therapy? Yes. But you`re supposed to trust your church and your supposed to trust your religion.
PINSKY: Next up, please go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So this young lady said that she wished that you know that they had people who could pray for them and make them feel happier.
But if being transgender is what makes them happier then isn`t that enough right there? Like why can`t they just be accepted of that?
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Like I don`t understand you know if somebody lives as a transgender person and it doesn`t affect you negatively like your
personal life negatively then why does it matter? Why can`t people just live their lives and be happy.
BARNETT: And if I don`t agree with you personally why can`t I be entitled just to my own opinion. I love them with the love of the lord. I`m not
hateful I want them to be happy and if this is how they want to live, I am not saying that they shouldn`t live their truth. What I`m saying is in my
- and what my beliefs, when you have any issue that you`re struggling with you go to the lord and you ask him for help and he lays out the guidance
for you. And so when you take that into your own hands, that`s just not something I would do and how I would handle the situation. But by all
means, you`re not me.
PINSKY: Last comment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could I address the issue of happiness for a moment?
PINSKY: Please.
WHITE: She from the Christian world view happiness is not the first thing we pursue. I can guarantee you nobody in those landing crafts on D-Day
were happy .
PINSKY: Yes, that`s right.
WHITE: But they were doing what was right and necessary.
PINSKY: Well.
WHITE: That is a .
PINSKY: Be careful.
WHITE: Well unless you want to be speaking German today what they were doing was pretty important.
PINSKY: Right, because the Germans felt the same way, you know what I`m saying. So duty can go to a bad place.
CATHERWOOD: Right I mean the Nazis, the Nazis were guided by God as well.
WHITE: The point is the character, integrity, self, that`s where it comes from.
PINSKY: I will - I will - I will agree with you one thousand percent and I actually love the topic and I generally feel we all need to get together in
this country so I`m going to end this by agree with James on this point.
[21:25:00] It`s not about happiness, happiness is not what makes a good life. Good living are good and just life. Living a certain kind of life
and you all need to decide what that is. A certain kind of life, a good life. We`ve lost track of that. We talk about leading the good life which
people mean as money and wealth. Nonsense it`s a good life. The guys that landed on D-Day were living a good life I say.
Next up, some people are taking advantage of Caitlyn Jenner`s transition to sell magazines and newspapers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: (Zoey Tur) is here to address that. Back after this.
(BEGIN COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(END COMMERCIAL BREAK) AURORA PERSICHETTI: The struggle with coming out on a public stand like she did, I could not imagine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: God created him as a man and in the middle of it he`s trying to say that he doesn`t like what God created. The gay community,
transgender, bi-sexual, you guys are trying to silence us Christians. When you take God out of the equations that`s why we have so many problems that
we have now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s educating so many people about something that a lot of us don`t know about.
WHITE: If God has made us in a certain way and we go against the way he`s made us, the result is not going to life and flourishing, it`s going to be
destruction and death.
[21:30:09] PINSKY: We are talking about Caitlyn Jenner and there are many that support the transition and others who vocally oppose. I`m back with
Vanessa, Emily and Mike.
ESPN will honor Caitlyn Jenner with the Arthur Ashe Courage Award at this year`s ESPs and a lot of people on Twitter are not happy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: They think other athletes were more deserving. Apparently Noah Gallaway comes up a lot, a double amputee Iraq war veteran. Or Lauren Hill
who battled brain cancer. Here are some tweets.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This is real courage #noahgallaway not #caitlynjenner. An absolute joke over this guy, Caitlyn Jenner is no hero, Lauren Hill is.
Mike?
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
PINSKY: It`s not like Caitlyn Jenner went and lobbied for this award and is responsible for them giving it to her. And by the way it`s consistent
with previous awards they`ve given. She`s the kind of subject that they have sort of - remember I think it was an NFL player that came out as gay .
CATHERWOOD: Michael Sam, yes he got last years, yes.
PINSKY: Yes, he got the award. I mean this is consistent with their who they give the awards too.
CATHERWOOD: I agree and I, you know it is - it`s a touchy subject because you`re talking about something. When you`re not talking about you know the
best picture at the Academy awards. When you`re talking about courage that is a very subjective kind of adjective. And you know people have very
strong feelings and very passionate feelings about things that are kind of ethically intertwined.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CATHERWOOD: Things like courage, things like dignity. I just don`t know - I mean really it`s the ESPs, you know .
(LAUGHTER)
CATHERWOOD: You know what I`m saying we`re not going to make him Secretary of State. Or make her the Secretary. You know it`s like oh well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CATHERWOOD: And you also have to - you also have to remember that ESPN, their main job is not to please the public it`s to get ratings.
PINSKY: Yes.
(CROSS-TALK)
CATHERWOOD: Caitlyn Jenner`s way more famous than the other two.
BARNETT: They`re just capitalizing off of this. They`re looking for the numbers they want the people to tune in and that`s .
PINSKY: All right.
BARNETT: I think it`s unfair to what his legacy was as an athlete.
CATHERWOOD: I think it takes a lot more courage to live through being in the Kardashian family.
PINSKY: Well really
(CROSS-TALK)
(LAUGHTER)
CATHERWOOD: . maybe even .
DR. DREW: No look.
CATHERWOOD: Maybe even than going to Afghanistan.
PINSKY: The commercial enterprise that is Caitlyn Jenner that is the Kardashian complex I guess we could call it. I want to bring in Zoey Tur,
transgender television reporter.
Zoey right you`ve been critical of the whole - the masterminding of you know the presentation of Caitlyn Jenner. And I guess a) I`d like you to
address that. And b) is it OK that she gets this award?
ZOEY TUR, TRANSGENDER TELEVISION REPORTER: Well this is a product rollout. So this is like Madison Avenue so they`re rolling out their new product
it`s the Kardashian 2.0 you know with the shiny wheels and the .
PINSKY: And is that good for transgender so far? Look we`re having these big conversations about it.
TUR: No, we`re talking about it, that`s good. But there`s a rebound affect.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TUR: And it`s not just the transgender community it`s the cisgender or the genetic female community. They`re now being held up to this high standard
that there`s this guy sitting there with a remote control at home you know they`re 60/65 years old and they`re watching TV.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUR: And they see Caitlyn Jenner come on and they look over at their wife and they go oy.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: This is - this is - it also .
TUR: No but it`s not fair, but this
PINSKY: But this is not the issue of what is a woman, what does it mean to be a woman, is it just all that gloss that`s on the cover of Vanity Fair?
TUR: No, being a woman is being told to sit down, shut up, and listen. That`s something I experience a great deal now that I`ve transitioned is
loss of male privilege. And it`s not this gender tourism where you keep all your parts and you get some parts and you go back and forth.
PINSKY: Well let me talk to the experts? Does this make sense?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: I think they`re capitalizing on the media, I don`t think .
PINSKY: No, the male privilege issue
(CROSS-TALK)
PINSKY: Have you guys experienced that.
BARNETT: Yes, I have heard that because the narrative
(CROSS-TALK)
PINSKY: But have you experienced it?
BARNETT: Yes.
PINSKY: You experienced the male privilege, you understand what Zoey`s talking about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: Yes, absolutely. I mean we`re looked at often times as white sex symbols.
(CROSS-TALK)
ROBERTS: . no you`re looked at as how you look. That`s what we face. And a lot of times men can get away, I say get away with, you guys do this all
the time it doesn`t really matter how you look as much.
PINSKY: Well and Sacha`s gone the other way. Hang on, Sacha do you know what Zoey`s talking about? Does that make sense to you?
SACHA PERSICHETTI: Oh yes totally. I mean for me it`s nice to not get looked at and get comments and yelled at `cause it`s been really weird for
me having that anyways especially living in my head.
PINSKY: Have you started doing that to women?
SACHA PERSICHETTI: Oh God no.
PINSKY: I`m just saying - I`m just saying. Zoey but if you were speaking to Caitlyn today what advice would you give her?
TUR: Be careful. She`s painted herself in a corner. I would say Caitlyn expect you`re riding a wave of euphoria right now but at some point you`re
going to have an extratensial crisis and you`re going to wonder where do I fit in in the world, will I be loved, will someone care for me? You know
will someone love me for myself? The person that I really am instead of you know the gloss and the hype.
CATHERWOOD: Male privilege is a very real thing I mean I`m not going to deny that. But you don`t know what it`s like to get a boner in public, it
sucks.
(LAUGHTER)
CATHERWOOD: Do you have - if you don`t have anything to hold and cover it up and then .
TUR: Why are you looking at Dr. Drew when you say that?
CATHERWOOD: Because I`ve watched him pass out from all the blood rushing to his massive gong.
PINSKY: Mike is the gayest straight man in America didn`t you know.
Next up, the man who became a woman but went back to being a man regrets the sex change surgery. He is here with us and his story, back after this.
[21:35:16] (BEGIN COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(END COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: When it was Bruce, Bruce had suicidal thoughts, thinking about getting a gun when this story broke.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I worry about the time when the lights go off and the shows go off and all of a sudden you know no-body`s around.
PINSKY: But people attacking the individual, it`s not a cartoon character, it`s someone who`s a human being who is at high risk for trouble right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:40:06] PINSKY: I feel that that is so important. We are talking about Caitlyn Jenner and the reaction to her very public transition back
with Vanessa, Emily and Mike.
In our audience I have Walt Heyer he himself had a gender reassignment surgery, regretted it, reversed the procedure. He`s the author of the book
Paper Genders.
All right Walt a) thank you for joining us.
WALT HEYER: Thank you.
PINSKY: And I`m fascinated by your story and what you`ve learned from it and does it cause you to be concerned about Caitlyn Jenner`s mental health?
WALT HEYER: Yes absolutely especially when I saw the 20/20 show and he talked about that time he came out of the clinic and the paparazzi were
there and that night he went home and he said he paced the floor considering, contemplating suicide. That scares me because this population
of transgenders has a rate of about 41% attempted suicide rate. So when somebody`s already talking about it at a time when things are really going
well for him, you worry about when things go bad what are they going to do.
PINSKY: Now I notice you`re using the pronoun him unconsciously I`m sure.
HEYER: Right.
PINSKY: When you went to becoming a female you have told me this before that that was a good experience for you, you felt great during that time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEYER: I did, it started out and I was very euphoric about it, I was excited about it and I lived as a female for eight years but that euphoria
wore off.
PINSKY: Is that what you`re talking about Zoey you`re worrying about that let down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUR: There is a let down that you experience but it`s about managing expectations. Walt managed his expectations as a female to some degree but
after a while it ended. I had a conversation earlier and it`s different for everybody else. But the point is the older you are when you transition
the less effective it is. It should be done and treated at a very early age.
PINSKY: How old were you Walt?
HEYER: I was 42.
PINSKY: 42, that`s earlier than certainly Caitlyn Jenner who`s 60 something.
TUR: Correct but still there is a rebound effect. So if you can take at risk children start them on puberty blockers and then start on hormones, if
they are .
PINSKY: That`s a high stakes game it seems .
TUR: It is - it is. However, so is suicide.
ROBERTS: Exactly I have actually (inaudible) at some of the research and we were talking about this earlier which is I think 15 or 16 now is a
better opportunity for people to start accepting, families to start accepting. Not necessarily like starting - not the hormones just yet
necessarily but starting that transition if they`re feeling that way because the suicide rate is so high.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
BARNETT: Let me grab the rein `cause I realize so many times you`ve pointed to the front, backside of that thing and told me that the brain is
not developed at that age and so .
PINSKY: It`s true. And Walt do you
(CROSS-TALK)
PINSKY: And Walt, you`re now a therapist right?
HEYER: I`m not a therapist but I have studied a lot about that and about the brain and it doesn`t really develop until 18 or 24 years old fully.
PINSKY: And what would you - given that the medical community is endorsing treatments that include gender transformation because it seems to work,
what would your alternative be?
HEYER: Well I would see - you know right now if you looked at my life early on you would say it was working. We`re looking at these kids now and
we`re saying it`s working. But what about the long term effects. That`s more of a concern to me. And because we really don`t have a great deal of
history with this over a long period of time so I think it`s a big concern.
PINSKY: I want to talk to our audience, what have you got? Yes ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, I just feel the need to express that I come from a family - well very large Latin family so we have a very big LGBT
community within my family and I have an aunt who`s well over 60 now and who was born a man. And tried to be married and that was in a time when it
really wasn`t accepted. They used to get arrested for being at clubs and you know just for being who she was. But again she`s well over 60 now and
completely happy and I think that`s one of the great things of living in America is that you know beyond religion or people`s opinions that we all
get to be who we are.
PINSKY: Mike is Latin too, maybe you can help him come out.
CATHERWOOD: Honestly at this point in my life I don`t know if it would be my family origin that would be more upset, it would probably be my wife.
PINSKY: I think it probably would.
ROBERTS: Your wife, yes.
CATHERWOOD: You know what I`m curious about is you know to mention the high rate of suicide is very important we can`t ignore that. But Dr. Drew
I mean how many times have we talked to young men who are family members of you know their brother or their sister killed themselves because the
straight lifestyle or the non-trans lifestyle was imposed on them by their family of origin.
PINSKY: I know it`s really hard to tell what`s what. I am no expert in this and I`m trying to understand it just like everybody else. Yes sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have several thoughts on this matter. First of all we`re all souls and when we go beyond this world we`re neither male or
female, black and white I believe and so it shouldn`t really matter. But in this world I know a guy that was 6ft tall, Brazilian, muscular, he did
massage and stuff .
TUR: Where does he live?
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s now - he`s now female and he used to complain that he was so well endowed that women complained about him.
CATHERWOOD: Yes, Drew gets the same thing.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
[21:44:58]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now he`s solved that problem - he`s solved that problem he`s a woman now but I think without getting into all the
details I think he was kind of confused and I think that - I say to myself with all that he had going on as man why would he - you know he still has
the man`s physique so I don`t.
PINSKY: Why make the transition? Zoey help him with that.
TUR: Because it`s not about the physique, it`s about what`s between your ears, it`s about gender dysphoria, you fight gender dysphoria but you`re
going to lose and with respect to Walt`s story is that there`s approximately 30,000 post-operative transsexuals in the United States with
a failure rate or a rate of people that don`t like their decision of maybe one to three percent. That`s always going to be there. But if you`re
looking at a suicide attempt rate at 42 percent maybe as high as 69 percent, you know you`re talking about vast numbers so you`re talking about
a very small population. Walt maybe has seen 200 people that want to de- transition.
PINSKY: See I`m - getting back to Caitlyn. I`m worried about her because she was in a fatal car accident, she had suicideality, the hormones can
screw you up in terms of your mood.
CATHERWOOD: And being at the center of a level of scrutiny that we - none of us .
PINSKY: Can imagine.
(CROSS-TALK)
PINSKY: Can imagine.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CATHERWOOD: She can`t go to Starbucks without the makeup team and ILM and you know that sort of post Photoshop work. So it`s just - she`s painted
herself into a box within a box.
PINSKY: Yes sir?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dr. Drew first of all three of my grandfathers were pastors and none of them have ever taught anything against homosexual,
being gay, or being transgender. They`ve encompassed and enjoyed every single person that came to their church. They`ve never been against and I
am not against it either even though my preference is for girls.
I don`t see why anybody in their right mind should be against in letting people be what they want to be. That being said, my question is this. Why
is it though that transgender girls never actually bring themselves out until you`re on the date with them or until afterwards?
PINSKY: Did something happen to you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: We`ve got to go, I can`t answer it now we`ve got to come back after this.
(BEGIN COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(END COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:51:26] PINSKY: Time now for Click Fix where my guests share what is trending on the Instagram, Facebook, and twitter feeds. Emily, what have
you got?
ROBERTS: Miley Cyrus is doing us a good service I think. She is - she is putting on instapride, sorry on Monday, which has actually just started on
my instagram feed too.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: And what she`s doing is making an effort to increase social acceptance of transgender and gender extensive people.
PINSKY: And wasn`t she saying she`s sort of a - her sexual orientation is fluid or something, I heard that, I thought I heard.
ROBERTS: I don`t know what`s going with Miley here right now but I do think what she`s doing is providing, you know a good service for people and
providing some dialogue and conversation about you know feeling good in the skin you`re in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: There you go. Vanessa?
BARNETT: That`s beautiful. It really is. No it really is beautiful. I like - I like Miley Cyrus.
My story is a little bit on that line it`s a young transgirl. She`s only seven years old and her mother`s writes about her experience on the gender
mom. Her mother`s name is Marlo Mack. Well this young girl got a chance to meet Laverne Cox from Orange is the New Black.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARNETT: Everyone loves her, she`s transgender and it was a great .
PINSKY: She`s transgender herself or she plays a transgender character?
MALE: Both
PINSKY: She`s both.
BARNETT: No, she shares into her - and well yes, both.
PINSKY: I got it.
BARNETT: And the young girl of course doesn`t watch the show but her mom has told her about her and it was just a beautiful experience for her, she
met her, she told Laverne that I`m transgender too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BARNETT: And she goes out - Laverne goes down, hugs her, they have this emotional moment and she`s like remember honey, transgender is beautiful,
and it was really sweet.
ROBERTS: It`s beautiful.
PINSKY: Mike, Don`t spoil the moment, what have you got?
MIKE CATHERWOOD, DR. DREW`S LOVELINE CO-HOST: No, no actually this is another beautiful story, this is from King TV. Brooklyn Buenaventura was
voted prom queen at her high school - Renten High School in Washington State.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CATHERWOOD: Buenaventura was born in a male body. Her birth name - she quotes my birth name is actually Bruce, like Bruce Jenner Buenaventura
said. Just like Bruce Jenner Brooklyn is in the process of transitioning. So you know.
PINSKY: There we go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CATHERWOOD: I think - I think you know yes to get the prom queen. To be another - you`re getting exposure on a different level than you would from
any other high school student that (inaudible).
ROBERTS: We have to be careful with this. Just what recently happened was somebody else who was transgender was - it`s actually true because they
killed themselves due to all the attention after being prom king or queen.
BARNETT: Wow.
PINSKY: Well it`s going to be interesting. That generation is going to own this phenomena and they`re going to inform us on how they feel about
it, how they incorporate it in their religious and spiritual place. And as I said earlier how to lead a good life, not the good life.
My Click Fix after this.
(BEGIN COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(END COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:58:02] PINSKY: Time now for My Quick Fix. It involves The Washington Post who took a look at the Twitter comparisons of Caitlyn Jenner and
Rachel Dolezal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Dolezal she of course is the woman who was born white but identifies herself as a black woman. Don`t giggle Vanessa, we`ve been over
and over this story we`ll keep getting into it.
Someone who identifies as (Rigatoni Red) said "don`t understand the controversy of the damage why shouldn`t be able to identify however she
wants much like transgenders."
Also (thirdcoastpa) said "Caitlyn was pretending to be a man while participating in the Olympics, she`s a liar just like Dolezal."
ROBERTS: Oh my god.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So the big issue the author had was with about integrity and authenticity, leading an authentic life. And a lot of what`s rolled around
us today is about leading a good life, an authentic life is necessary to lead a good life.
(Inaudible) when you got sober you had to be honest and you had to live a certain kind of life right, and it`s critical for people. And so when
people are taking issue, I know you`re not so worried about Rachel Dolezal being black but lying and fraud isn`t that a problem?
BARNETT: I`m more so mad today than I was before her interview aired. I thought her interview was all over the place, she didn`t clear anything up
and now I`m more mad so no she can`t be black anymore.
(LAUGHING)
ROBERTS: But she was never black she was orange. She was orange come on.
BARNETT: But no, I hear what you`re saying yet I just to want to be something else other than what you are makes me wonder why you hate what
you are so much.
ROBERTS: Because some people want to .
BARNETT: Especially when it comes to race. I understand transgender is different, I`m not saying they`re exactly the same but why does Rachel hate
being white so much. Like I wanted to know what`s there .
(CROSS-TALK)
PINSKY: It`s a brain thing. Sometimes it`s psychological and sometimes it`s a brain thing.
CATHERWOOD: Hey how many people said how could a guy - how could a guy like Robin Williams with so much money and fame want to kill himself?
ROBERTS: It was a brain thing.
CATHERWOOD: It`s right here.
PINSKY: It`s a brain thing. That`s exactly right. It`s one of these things this is what did it in most of these cases. DVR us then you can
watch us anytime. Thank you audience, thank you all for watching, we will see you next time.
END
