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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Discussion of Supreme Court Decision on Affordable Care Act; Interview with Rep. Bradley Byrne; Another Prison Guard Investigated for Possible Involvemnet in New York Prison Break. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired June 25, 2015 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN HOST: These are the kinds of things that a lot of Americans are hearing as very good things. Why do you dispute that?

REP. BRADLEY BYRNE, (R) ALABAMA: Well because I listen to the people in my district and this thing is not working for them. They're having real hard time trying to meet the deductible levels. Some of them can't afford the premiums.

And people are finding they've got real restrictions on the health care that's available to them.

So everything I'm hearing in my district is people do not like this law. And they wanted to repeal and replace with something that works for them and empowers them and not some bureaucrat in Washington.

So we're going to continue to fight and I think we'll be successful.

BANFIELD: But 50 challenges already in and you have been part of that as well, it's not working, it's certainly not working the way you're trying to repeal it.

I've asked my colleagues prior to you coming on live, is the only way you can do, what you and many of your Republican colleagues are saying you'd like to do and that is repeal and replace, is the only way you can do that to basically, you know, win transvector, you going to have to have the White House, the senate and the house in order to do this.

BYRNE: We'll I think that's true, I think we've come to the conclusion now as a result to the Supreme Court decisions, I mean that have a different president. And so I think these issues are going to be font in setting a presidential campaign.

So in the meantime, we'll continue our legislative work here, then maybe somethings we can do here and there. But at the end of the day you can't fix this law, you got to replace it and we're going to continue that flight all the way through the presidential election.

BANFIELD: So Congressman Byrne, my colleague Gloria Borger put up a really good point earlier on CNN and that was this that many of your colleagues who perhaps feel the way you do, that certain constituents needs aren't being met by Obamacare would like to cherry pick the fixes. And instead it's become such a heated issue that there's no conciliatory language that will do, it's either repeal and replace and don't discuss the issue at all. Is that healthy?

BYRNE: Well I think it's OK to talk about the various parts of the law that aren't working here and there and talk about some type of piecemeal fissurate (ph). At the end of the day, I don't think a piecemeal fix is going to work.

I was going to work politically, I know the president is going to accept that. So at the end of the day we're going to have to vote this presidential election, elect a president whose want to sit down and honestly talk about the fact that this law was ill-conceived, it's not working and let's understand of what the Supreme Court said today was. It was rushed through so fast that they created an ambiguity in it for drafting.

Let's go back and take a look at the law understand that it's not working and put something in place that makes sense for the American people.

So when we try to do some piecemeal between here and the presidential election, maybe but I don't think it's going to work though, be the (ph) president going to sign it.

BANFIELD: Well if grammar matters and language matters and even one of the justices suggested as much the chief justice in fact that got to be more careful of how we write these things.

Thank you so much for being with us, I do appreciate it Congressman Byrne joining us live from the Rettendon (ph), thank you.

It's a Supreme Court job interpret the careful wording of the constitution and the laws before them. So is that exactly what they did today or did they instead repair a law that came their way.

It's not perfectly divided but these robbed nine certainly do not all think alike. Get deep down and dirty in the opinions in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:36:47] BANFIELD: Don't feel so bad if you follow the Supreme Court arguments on Obamacare and then you totally blew it when you assume you knew what verdict was going to be, because interpreting the justice's questions and predicting their thought process gauging their gamesmanship it ain't for amateurs.

And the pros get it wrong too, so I've called some pros who can now look back because you can't make a mistake when you look back and analyze.

You know, our Senior Legal Analyst and New Yorker Writer Jeffrey Toobin. And we're also joined by Constitutional Scholar and Law Professor Jonathan Charlie.

OK, you two, I have been dying to get to this point in the program to actually dig down into the opinion writing because it's sexy.

I know it's geeky but I really find the stuff exciting.

When Justice Scalia and his dissenting opinion wrote that this is interpretive jiggery and pokery, he was affectively accusing the majority of messing with language. I get it that he's a color character. But is this a direct job at anyone in particular or just at the process?

And I'll go with you Jeff Toobin.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: It's a direct job at Chief Justice Roberts he's the one who wrote the opinion. And what makes it especially greedy is that Roberts and Scalia are usually on the same sides, they are both generally very conservative.

So I think what made chief justice and what made Justice Scalia so angry is that he's affectively saying come on you're a smart guy, we agree most of the time, how could you be so stupid in this case?

I think Roberts has a very good response to that. But, you know, these justices they take their work very seriously. And when they lose especially when Justice Scalia looses, they get mad.

And that's a very mad dissenting opinion.

BANFIELD: Jonathan Turley I just want to read a little bit more from Justice Scalia. Its congress' responsibility to make the laws and this courts responsibility only to interpret them, "It is up to our country's elected lawmakers not to its unelected judges, to repair statutes that have unintended consequences or that do not work out in practice."

He makes perfect sense how can the justices particularly the chief justice and Scalia be so far apart.

JONATHAN TURLEY, LAW PROFESSOR, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIV.: Well, you know, this is a matter of jurisprudence that divides the justices and how you interpret a statute, if you remember this was not unanimous decision, a three justices felt the president was wrong.

The D.C. circuit ruling this was a panel I -- in a different case ruled essentially the way that the descent ruled here, the forth circuit. And now six justices ruled for the White House, this is something upon which good faith people can disagree.

What Justice Scalia saw was a deeply flawed statute which it is, since it was not crafted or written particularly well. And he felt that the court was whooping in, it's a save it from itself.

And I think part of the intention and part of the perhaps anger that you see in these words, is also from the earlier decision a few years ago, the individual mandate decision.

In that case it was Chief Justice Roberts that came in, gave the deciding vote and adapted a very broad interpretive of -- interpretation of the law to save it.

[12:40:06] And I think that both of those decisions are at play today. I think that what Scalia was talking -- Justice Scalia was talking about was a reference not just the decision today but a decision earlier by the chief justice.

BANFIELD: Jeff Toobin I want you to weigh in on something, I'm just looking over a brief history and I only pick three for time and that is Sandra Day O'Connor, Justice Roberts and Chief Justice Earl Warren, all of them appointed by Republican president, all of them shifting left on the court arguably they have said ending school segregation for Justice Warren is a leftward shift.

Two part question, the impact moving forward for Republicans as they look for appointee should they win the White House. And then also just out of curiosity, do democratic justices ever shift right?

TOOBIN: Occasionally it has happened Byron White who was appointed by President Kennedy certainly turned out to be by in large a conservative justice.

I think you can overstate this idea that Republicans are often surprised by their nominees, you know, John Roberts today engaged in a, you know, wrote a decision that is helpful to Barack Obama.

However he is also the author of the decision that gotted the Voting Rights Act, he has consistently supported Citizens United and all the decisions that are affectively deregulating American, deregulating American politics.

So John Roberts did not suddenly discover his inner liberal today. I think perhaps what today's decision illustrates is that this was maybe a pretty easy case. And in fact the theory that every single member of congress didn't understand the law that was passed because not one member of congress supported the interpretation of the plaintiffs at the time this law was passed suggest that, you know, maybe this law, maybe this case was really a reach on the part of the plaintiffs not the John Roberts is suddenly betraying the conservative cause because he is by in large a very conservative justice.

BANFIELD: Just quickly Jonathan Turley, should we be extrapolating forward to say "Oh I don't know the next big decision that's going to land momentarily, gay marriage on what we see today 6-3 or the advocates different don't jump ahead of the cart."

TURLEY: Well that's -- the really the question a lot people are asking, it's not just the same sex marriages and EPA case and enormously important case that involve statutory interpretation.

A lot of people will be looking whether Chief Justice Roberts adapts the same broad approach when environmental protections are at stake or whether he goes back to a more conservative textural approach.

But on same sex marriage people have largely counted Roberts with the conservative side of the court. But the expectations on the street is that the advantage rest with the same sex couples that Justice Kennedy maybe ready to cast that decisive fifth vote and cross the Rubicon on the issue of constitutional protection of same sex marriage.

BANFIELD: I'd like to protectively book you for tomorrow at 12 noon because you actually might land on our desk tomorrow.

So if the two of you have nothing better to do, it would be great to have you back.

TOOBIN: I work here Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: I know you have no choice.

Jeff Toobin, Jonathan Turley always a pleasure, thank you, appreciate it.

Coming up next the other big story this hour two escaped killers on the loose in New York State and another arrest from inside the prison from which they've busted.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:17:27] BANFIELD: So, these two gentlemen over my shoulder is still out there somewhere on the run and frustrating to hell out of the entire state police force who have to really start the search from scratch all over again.

In 20 days since David Sweat and Richard Matt busted out of prison in upstate New York. Oh, and by the ways, today is Mr. Matt's birthday, he turns 49. I don't think he's too comfy out there or celebrating. Or maybe he is.

There is something else to tell you about today though. You know the woman who allegedly helped Sweat and Matt break out? She's not the only one from the prison who is in big trouble today. Enter the picture Gene Palmer. And probably not the way he wants to enter this picture.

He worked as a guard at the prison for nearly 30 years, but yesterday, it was he in handcuffs instead of the guy using the handcuff. Today, he is charged with giving the two convicts tool that they used to make their escape from prison. You remember those saw blades that were hidden in the hamburger meat? He's the one who allegedly delivered them to Matt and Sweat. And then there's the case of the needle-nose pliers in the flat had screwdriver that he apparently let them use too. Oops!

He got on bail. Paid for by credit card, but he's going to be in court later today. And Palmer's lawyer, not surprisingly is saying that he's client is innocently caught up in the middle of this whole thing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDREW BROCKWAY, GENE PALMER'S ATTORNEY: He had no knowledge beforehand that there were any kind of tools inside. The only mistake he made was trusting Joyce Mitchell. He could've run up through him with the metal detector that was a mistake, Anderson, he didn't run in through the metal detector, he feels extremely guilty about that. He's regretful. He apologizes for that, but Ms. Mitchell was just as manipulative as these two inmates were.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: OK, well that would speak to the frozen meat story, but what about those other tools?

Jean Casarez is in Cadyville, New York not far from the prison and also here is legal analyst, Paul Calla. To you Jean first, there is that issue that he is alleged to have given this killer -- these killers access to the catwalk behind their cells to fix some of the electronics that would've help them cook their food easier and given them the tools too. That is not inadvertent and that's not trusting someone else like the other woman involved.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And that is part of the three felonies that he's charged with. You know, this is so ironic, but Gene Palmer is facing more years in prison, Ashleigh, than Joyce Mitchell who allegedly facilitated the escape.

[12:20:03] Now here is what we know from the complaint, first of all he's charged with promoting prison contraband, tampering with physical evidences just as you said. The complaint says that he introduced into the Clinton facility, that means he brought it in from the outside a screwdriver and pliers because Sweat and Matt says they have electrical issues behind the wall of their cell, they weren't able to cook their food.

We know from a source posted the case that he said he stood next to them as they did the work supervising it, took the tools when they were finished, but a search warrant executed at his home found those tools on his property.

Next thing, tampering with physical evidence, that has to do with according to the complaint taking paintings, plural, and burning them on his property that Matt and Sweat had given to them, their art work. And also digging and burying other paintings.

Now his attorney spoke out yesterday on -- last night on Anderson Cooper, the complaint says nothing about ground hamburger meat at all. And his attorney commented on his innocence and also a bit about that ground meat.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

BROCKWAY: My client understands and that this is public emergency. He wants to help out with any information that he has. He will give that over to the state police and the FBI. He understands that he made a mistake with the whole meat fiasco, but he will continue to cooperate. He's a very -- He's a man of integrity who made some mistakes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CASAREZ: So the next thing this afternoon, it is an adjournment hearing I am told. And whether or not the defendant will show up, we shall see, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: All right, Jean, hold that up for a moment. Paul Callan, what inmate, especially when they're violent, vicious murderers are allowed in the catwalk behind their cells even if a guard is watching them.

PAUL CALLAN, LEGAL ANALYST: Probably the same ones who are allowed to go to the honor block which is where these two were held, where they get the maximum number of privileges. And I think this guard, we like to think guards should be smart enough not to be dooped by prisoners.

I suspect he was dooped and he thought that they would help to fix this electrical problem. They had given him these paintings as gifts.

BANFIELD: Yeah.

CALLAN: And those are the paintings that he later destroyed when of course it would've shown he was -- had a relationship.

BANFIELD: That's absurd. They -- He is charged for doing that.

CALLAN: Yes, he is.

BANFIELD: Distortion of evidence, but could you see -- could you, as a defensive attorney say, "Look, the guy was scared. All of a sudden he gotten these gifts from these guys and he didn't want to be part of all this mess."

CALLAN: Oh, and that's the -- that we're seeing that defense today. He was dooped, he accepted the painting that he was afraid that he was going to get arrested for, so he just threw his evidence and of course he smuggled this stuff in and helped them escape maybe without even knowing it.

So I -- He's going to be an innocent doop but he'll pay a price, a serious price. These are very heavy felonies he's charged with.

BANFIELD: Look, I've never been a guard but I've seen them on T.V. you just don't do this stuff. You don't give dangerous killers things that are made of iron, steel, or metal like that. Call me crazy.

John -- Paul Callan, thank you very much. Jean Casarez, thank you as well, I appreciate it.

Coming up next, could day 20 be the end of the line though for these escaped killers. We've got the very latest on the search, the number of people looking for them and it can close them in.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:21:54] BANFIELD: Want to take you back to upstate New York in a now 20-day long search for those two escaped murderers. After a few unconfirmed sightings, at more than one spot in the state, Richard Matt and David Sweat are again under the category, "could be anywhere." CNN's Boris Sanchez is at the area of (inaudible) New York, its west of the prison where the search is now focused.

Boris, we all thought that news was tightening in that location especially after that cabin was burglarized. Is that lead running cold?

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ashleigh, officers have told us this is still the focus of their search not far from that area where that cabin and was broken into over the weekend. But as you said they haven't had a lead since that cabin was broken into a confirmed lead.

So the more time that passes, the more possible it is that the trail will go cold. However, officers have told us this is a relentless pursuit. They will not stop until these men are caught. There are about a thousand people right now going over more than 2,000 leads and they're exhausting every resource possible to try and catch these men.

In the past few hours, our crew tried to head south to an area called Mountain View and we were cut off by officers. They were setting up a search in that area at that time. It seem like something very routine and wasn't urgent, but again they were going through that area bit by bit to try to find any clues, any leads that might let them know where these men might be.

And again they're not turning away any resources either. We've seen helicopters and ATVs scouring this area clearly, Ashleigh it is still a full court press to find these men.

BANFIELD: So, I can imagine what it would be like to be living there and there have been these reports of residents leaving and waiting to return when it's safer. Now that we are at day 20, are they still leaving or are people starting to come back thinking that they're no longer there?

SANCHEZ: Well, frankly Ashleigh I have not spoken to anyone who has left or is planning to leave. All the residents I've spoken to say they are frustrated these men haven't been caught, but they are relying on law enforcement, they're trusting in law enforcement thankful that they're out there.

One lady told me she was just rattled that these men were still on the loose but she was thankful that there was an extra presence not far from her home.

BANFIELD: And then what about the numbers? A thousand law enforcement, that was a big announcement, is it still a thousand, because we've seen it wane before.

SANCHEZ: We believe it is still a thousand. The sheriff of Franklin County told us yesterday they are not turning away any resource so far so they are not holding back and committing more bodies to this search.

BANFIELD: All right. Well, hopefully those people can find some solace in those troopers out on the road, at least behind you. It certainly looks a like a good presence for us.

Sanchez, live for us thank you for that, I do appreciate it.

And thank you everyone for watching. Clearly, this has been a very busy day for the President and for Congress members and those 2016 hopefuls who watched as the Supreme Court handed down its decision on ObamaCare, it is the law of the land. The fallout begins now, the dominoes fall.

My colleague, Wolf Blitzer is going to take it from here with insight analysis on the news today.

[12:30:08] WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting from Washington. I want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world.