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Police Report Escaped Prisoner Contained in Wooded Area in New York; Activist Removes Confederate Flag from South Carolina State House; Terrorist Attacks Hotel in Tunisia; President Obama's Possible Legacy Examined. Aired 10-11a ET

Aired June 27, 2015 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[10:00:00] MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN ANCHOR: Have a happy Fourth of July.

CHRISTI PAUL, CNN ANCHOR: We're following three breaking news stories. Police tightening in on one of the escaped killers still on the loose in New York, swarming an area of New York hundred hunting David Sweat just a day now after officers shot and killed his partner, Richard Matt.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: The second story breaking now, more information coming out about the gunman responsible for killing dozens of tourists at a beach resort in Tunisia. Now witnesses are revealing the moment the student pulled a weapon from behind an umbrella and started shooting.

PAUL: Also the Confederate flag removed from the capital this morning in South Carolina. The state didn't do it. Someone else climbed up that pole and took it down. Two people are now in custody.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN breaking news.

PAUL: We begin in New York with you here where hundreds of officers are out this morning looking for this man, David Sweat. The escaped killer is still on the run three weeks after breaking out.

So glad to have your company. I'm Christi Paul.

BLACKWELL: I'm Victor Blackwell. Its' 10:00 this morning on the east coast, 7:00 out west. Thanks for joining us for Newsroom. We are starting with the helicopters and the search dogs, 1,100 law enforcement officers, a huge rush of resources. Police are now searching for escaped killer David Sweat. They believe they could have him, here is the word they are using, "contained" inside a perimeter. The search is going on near the upstate New York community of Malone.

We are covering this story across several angles, and from the area, they are live on the ground, we have got Jean Casarez and Polo Sandoval inside the perimeter. Let's start with Jean. Give us the latest on what's happening with this search.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the manhunt is in full force this morning. It's a beautiful day up here, so it is a good day for searchers. And you are talking about FBI, U.S. Marshals, U.S. Custom and Border Patrol, and also the St. Regis Mohawk Tribal Police are here helping authorities today.

Now, it was one week ago this morning, just about right now, fourteen miles away it became known that a cabin had been broken into. And New York state police told CNN that they believed conclusively that the inmates had been in that cabin. That's how it all started one week ago. And then late Wednesday night, another cabin right in this area. Police were informed there was a break-in. And that led to yesterday. About 2:00 in the afternoon, all of the sudden law enforcement is told shots fired.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO, NEW YORK: There was a civil complaint, civilian in the town of Duane. There was a gunshot that was fired at a camping trailer. The state police responded to investigate the complaint. They came upon a cabin. They went inside the cabin. They detected the smell of gun powder.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And then at that point, the tactical units of the U.S. Customs and Border Patrol came in via helicopter. There was a grounds search. At that point they heard a cough. So they knew they were not dealing with an animal. They were dealing with a human being. It was not long after that that tactical unit cornered Matt. They asked him to surrender, put your hands up. He didn't do it. He was armed. They shot him dead. And at his side, there was a .22 gauge shotgun -- a .20 gauge shotgun. And that was a shotgun, we understand, that went missing one week ago today from that original cabin fourteen miles away. Christie, Victor?

BLACKWELL: All right, Jean Casarez, thank you so much. We will get to Polo Sandoval here in just a moment. We have time to go to Polo or we're going to bring him later in the show? Let's go to Polo then. Polo, this rush of resources, as we said, 1,100 law enforcement officers there obviously helped by daylight now. They say they have him contained but they haven't actually seized this suspect who is still at-large.

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Victor, that's a very important point here. Just moment after Richard Matt was shot and killed we began to hear from law enforcement sources that believed that they had David Sweat contained and they were, in their own words, on top of him.

However, shortly after that, we heard from officials who publicly confirmed not only the death of Richard Matt but also that they really have nothing to confirm David Sweat's whereabouts. They do, however, have a potential strong lead. We are told there were several tracks that were located in and around the area of the shooting. They are not far from where I'm standing here in Malone, New York.

They are not sure who those tracks or at least who left them there. However, that is a strong lead that they are following, because at this point this is where all of those resources are being focused at this hour.

[10:05:07] We have seen all morning just these hundreds of state police officers, really not just them but local and federal investigators as well, they come and go in between shifts because this is a tremendous, a very tough task to track down this individual. They say if David Sweat is in the rolling hills of the Adirondacks, they will find him. However, as they move forward, Victor, they are doing it very carefully. They consider him armed, dangerous, and desperate.

BLACKWELL: Desperate indeed.

Polo, how are people that live in this community, because it is a community. We are not just talking about some forested area. How have the people that lived there responded?

SANDOVAL: Yes, this is a destination for people who are here for vacation. But we also have to keep in mind that there are also people that call this place home year-round. We had an opportunity to speak to a few yesterday after that major development happened, after Richard Matt was shot and killed. One in particular told me that there is a sense of relief or at least partial relief knowing one of these very dangerous individuals is no longer in the picture. But they are also very familiar with the fact and reality that this other very dangerous individual is still out there. They are still going to keep their doors locked, their lights on, alarms activated, which is what investigators are recommending. In fact authorities say if they have somewhere else to go, they may want to take advantage of that as the search continues to intensify not far from the Canadian border, Victor.

BLACKWELL: All right, Polo Sandoval, our thanks also to Jean Casarez. We will check back with both of you. Let's go now to Christi.

PAUL: All right, let's talk about this manhunt further with CNN law enforcement analyst Cedric Alexander. Also with us, Charles Stone, who is a retired special agent from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, and was part of the manhunt for the Olympic Park bomber Eric Rudolph. Thank you both, gentlemen so much for being with us. Charles, I wanted to start with you, because one of the things that's so different about this today than it has been in the last few weeks is the fact that the first time David Sweat is traveling alone. He does not have his partner in crime. Knowing that, do you think he has the wherewithal to survive?

CHARLES STONE, RETIRED SPECIAL AGENT, GEORGIA BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: It depends on his background, Christi, whether or not he has a lot of experience in the woods or not. Although his partner was killed, he is still out there by himself. By having just one person on the run, it can leave less sign in the woods than two people running together. So depending on his background, from what y'all have reported so far, I don't think he has a lot of experience being in the woods but has the right resources in the area. Particularly the patrol tactical unit, they are used to tracking people. So I think he will be apprehended in a short period of time. PAUL: Cedric, we have been talking about these two sets of foo

footprints, that's why they believe David Sweat was with Matt before he was killed. Do they have to change strategy now that it is one person as opposed to two? Help us understand what this tactical unit is doing this morning.

CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: What's going to happen, this unit is going to intensify their search. And I think from all indication, they have him supposedly within a certain perimeter, what you are going to continue to see throughout the morning and throughout the day, they are going to close in gradually on Sweat. It is just a matter of time. He is out there by himself. He is alone. He probably has very little food, very little water. He has got to be extremely fatigued. And of course nevertheless, I think we all know he is probably pretty desperate right now as well too.

PAUL: Right, I wanted to ask you, Charles, getting to that point, how does desperation change the game if at all?

STONE: Desperation will change the game probably to benefit law enforcement. He will get desperate and he'll take more chances. As Cedric said, he will be looking for food, water, and things of that nature. So the more desperate he gets, the more mistakes he is going to make, which will increase the chances of him being arrested.

PAUL: Which is interesting, because we have being saying for weeks there had been no robberies reported, there had been no car-jackings reported. Now we believe or authorities believe it was an attempted carjacking that brought them to Matt.

ALEXANDER: Here's the thing. That's a large area up there in upstate New York. I am very familiar with there. I lived up there in the mid-2000s. But I'm going to tell you, we don't know what cabins have been robbed or not yet. You understand what I'm saying? We only know what's been reported. So as his desperation increases, so does his dangerousness. And that, for law enforcement, as well, too, is going to heighten their level of intensity of the search as well, because he is desperate. He is very dangerous, and probably has vowed to himself not to go back to prison. But however he chooses for this chapter to end, it will actually be left up to him.

PAUL: All right, Charles Stone and Cedric Alexander, thank you so much. You're going to stick around with us, I understand, and thank you, because we do have some other questions that we want to get to you as well on that search and the impact as it continues as well. So thank you.

ALEXANDER: Thank you.

PAUL: Victor?

[10:10:00] BLACKWELL: Yes, we have also got to update everyone on the other breaking stories. Two stories we are following this morning. First, new details about the gunman who opened fire and killed dozens at the seaside resort in Tunisia. And this is happening as the tourists now understandably are loading onto buses and getting away from this area.

Also, a surprising scene in Columbia, South Carolina, there at the state house. An activist climbs the flagpole and snatches down the Confederate flag. This is the first time this has come down on state property, or state house grounds, in decades. We'll talk more about this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN breaking news.

BLACKWELL: And the breaking news this morning, one of the stories breaking, the new details we're getting on a gunman who attacked a beach resort in Tunisia. He was not known to be affiliated with any terror group. And his passport did not have any sign of foreign travel. ISIS is claiming responsibility for the attack and posted a photo of the alleged attacker. But witnesses say they cannot be sure whether this person is the gunman they saw at the shooting scene. The attacker killed at least 38 people, wounded 36 others. CNN senior international correspondent Nick Paton Walsh is outside that shooter's home. Nick?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Victor, Christi, I am outside the house in this far flung town, Carrefour, deep in the heart of Tunisia, outside the house where just day before he launched that attack on the hotel in Sousse. A man called Seifeddine Al Rezgui came to visit his parents and his uncle who live behind that brown door behind me.

[10:15:07] He, in fact, himself, lived here until 2011, before going on to college, and his uncle described to us how he came just on Thursday to see everybody, as he had done regularly, I'm sure in his heart knowing quite what was to happen next in his life.

And certainly, here in this village, as is often the case after atrocities like this, we are being told a picture of a relatively normal individual, a man described, Seif Al Rezgui the gunman in the Tunisian hotel, a man described as an introvert who liked football and even joined a dance club here. He showed no real signs of what he was about to become according to police. And I think many here are trying to look out quite how they can square the pictures seen in the attack claimed by ISIS and the images from the Imperial Marhaba Hotel in Sousse with what they knew about Seif Al Rezgui who spent so much of his life behind that door there here.

This, a very quiet, humble town, not a lot of an economy going on here. We are hearing of perhaps his brother perhaps having lost his life in 2010 to a storm attack here. Details slowly drifting out now about this gunman, age 24, specializing in electronics and his engineering masters. At the end of the day, the man who chose to take an AK-47 and walk through that hotel full of tourists, many of them simply in their swimwear on holiday, gunning down dozens of them. Victor, Christie?

BLACKWELL: All right, Nick Paton Walsh reporting for us this morning. Nick, thanks. PAUL: We're also following breaking news out of South Carolina this morning. All it took was an activist, bolt cutters, and a camera. And now two people are under arrest. For the first time in more than five decades, the Confederate flag has been removed from outside the state capital in South Carolina.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Serena Williams is the top ranked tennis player in the world. But she is not the reigning queen of the all England club. That would be Petra Kvitova. She won her second Wimbledon title last summer and now she could spoil Serena's hopes of winning her third straight major of the year. The 25 year old Czech handed Williams her first loss of the year at the Madrid Open back in May, snapping a 2y match win streak.

PETRA KVITOVA, TENNIS PLAYER: I had a great run in Madrid, but I'm glad I was playing well to beat Serena. It is not happening every day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kvitova won't have an easy path to the title. The world number two hasn't played since losing in the fourth round of the French Open at the start of June and she goes into Wimbledon without having played any matches on grass. She withdrew from a warm-up tournament because of illness. Kvitova, though, still has the mindset of a champion.

KVITOVA: I don't think I can be able to do it so easy. But that's how it is. And as I said, I think I should be lucky today. I'm going to defend the title.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:21:57] PAUL: It's 21 minutes past the hour. I want to get to our other breaking story out of Columbia, South Carolina. High drama over this morning over the Confederate flag. It is now put back up on the grounds of the state capital, we want to point out. However, an activist who calls herself Bree climbed up the flagpole just a few hours ago, here are the pictures of this as she was taking it down. She and another man were arrested. And authorities are releasing their names. Brittany Ann Newsome and James Ian Tyson, the hash-tag, "Free Bree" is going viral on Twitter right now. CNN's Martin Savidge is following this for us in Charleston, South Carolina. So Martin, we understand that Bree and this man are facing some charges. Do we know what those charges are, and do we know if they are still in custody?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We don't know if they are still in custody. The charges against them that were listed by the authorities were defacing a monument, which could get you up to three years in jail and up to a $5,000 fine. It happened around 6:15 this morning. And as you say, Bree was scaling up that flag pole unclipped, should be pointed out, the Confederate battle flag, brought it down and then both were immediately arrested. She had someone helping her on the ground. So there was a statement put up by this group saying, and this group

is called Ferguson Action. The statement said, quote, "We removed the flag today because we can't wait any longer. We can't continue like this another day. It is time for a new chapter where we are sincere about dismantling white supremacy and building toward true racial justice and equality." And as you point out, the flag was replaced within the hour.

Yesterday, the president spoke quite passionately and defiantly against the Confederate flag in his eulogy. Here is what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Removing the flag from this state's capital would not be an act of political correctness. It would not be an insult to the valor of Confederate soldiers. It would simply be an acknowledgment that the cause for which they fought, the cause of slavery, was wrong.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAVIDGE: And that was, of course, the eulogy for Reverend Clementa Pinckney. He was one of the nine people who were murdered inside Mother Emanuel Church in what was a racially inspired killing spree. There are three more funerals that are scheduled today at this church. Cynthia Hurd, her funeral will begin just about 35 minutes from now. And then there is Tywanza Sanders and Susie Jackson. Those will both occur at 2:00. And it should be noted that Tywanza Sanders, 26 years old, actually tried to protect his aunt, that's Susie Jackson. She is 87. Both were murdered. And it was Felicia Sanders, his mother, who was also in that church. She survived by pretending to be dead, lying in the blood of her son. It is unimaginable. Christie?

PAUL: That is exactly the word. It's just unfathomable. And you can't even put yourself in that position to try to understand. Martin Savidge, thank you so much. We appreciate it.

[10:25:06] BLACKWELL: Now, after the flag was removed this morning, there are some who are responding to this, calling this activist a criminal, others calling her a hero. We'll talk with at least one critic of the Confederate flag about this activist's approach this morning, also, how the fight over the Confederate flag is spreading beyond South Carolina.

Also, we're going to talk about this search, the breaking news that's happening in upstate New York, the search for David Sweat as Richard Matt has been killed. We have got teams on the ground inside the search area. We'll tell you the latest on what's going on there with 1,100 law enforcement officers inside the search.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN breaking news. PAUL: It's 28 minutes past the hour. I want to share this brand new

video we're just getting of that massive manhunt that is underway right now in the upstate community of Malone in New York. Over 1,000 officers, about 1,100, are forming a perimeter here. They are checking cars, as you see here. They are talking to drivers. All of this with the goal of capturing David Sweat. Here is the difference this morning. He is on the run alone there, as he is on the right, after his partner on the left there, Richard Matt, was shot and killed by border patrol officers yesterday. Officials believe they are closing in on him, although, they do admit, they haven't seen him yet. Jean Casarez is inside the search perimeter. And Jean, just wondering where this search stands right now.

CASAREZ: You know, a little bit ago, I spoke with a searcher, and I asked, do you still believe that you have David Sweat contained? I got a pause and the response I got was, "We hope so."

[10:30:00] But here is what's happening right now. It is an all-out manhunt by air and by land. By air, helicopters, of course, are still here today. We just saw ATVs in the area. We know there is law enforcement from the federal, state, and local division. Even the tribal police are here.

And I think we have a live shot up, you can see of the checkpoint. You see this area is blocked off. You can't just drive into the Titus mountain area in the upper Adirondacks. You have got officers, you've got stop signs, and you've got searches even if you live here. So they are taking all precautions.

But at this point the search goes on. On a positive note, it is beautiful weather. So that's for sure, to play devil's advocate, this is the largest wilderness area east of the Mississippi. It is huge area. It is desolate. We were told the other day that sometimes searchers can't see more than two feet in front of them because of all the foliage. And some of the logging hasn't been done here in years. Very few roads, even difficult for the ATVs to get here. But we are seeing ATVs. We're seeing law enforcement in force. They say they will not quit until they find David Sweat. Christie?

PAUL: All right, Jean Casarez, we appreciate the update. Thank you.

BLACKWELL: Now to another big story we are following this morning. U.S. authorities are warning Americans of possible terror threats centered around the Fourth of July holiday. This comes after three terror attacks across three continents in one day on Friday.

We just told you about an attack in Tunisia a few moments ago where a gunman attacked a beach resort, 38 people killed there. Officials say he was not known to be affiliated with any terror group. In Kuwait, security forces have tracked down the car used to drop off the suicide bomber who attacked the mosque. They are still looking for the driver of that car. At least 27 people were killed in that blast, Another 227 wounded. ISIS is claiming responsibility for that one.

Now, in France, authorities are questioning a man that drove a van into a gas factory and set off an explosion and then left the decapitated head of a victim pinned to the fence of that factory he attacked. Let's bring in Phil Mudd, CNN counterterrorism analyst and former CIA counterterrorism official. Phil, first, good to have you this morning.

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Thanks.

BLACKWELL: So let's talk about the timing here, because this comes after the request from al-Adnani to attack during Ramadan, all three happening on a Friday. Is the timing just a coincidence or do you believe they were connected?

MUDD: I think the timing of the three incidents together is a coincidence. I don't think it's a coincidence that people out across the Islamic world in places like Tunisia or Kuwait are listening to the ISIS-inspired people and saying and deciding, hey, if that's what the head leadership is saying, let me see if I can get my attack going on now. So I think the message of ISIS is resonating among people. I just think the fact that all three happened on a Friday is just coincidental.

BLACKWELL: So let me ask you about the recent focus of the strength or weakness of ISIS. It has been measured in square kilometers in Syria and Iraq. They gain a city. They lose a city. Is that focus misplaced?

MUDD: I think you have to think about ISIS in terms of two things. Number one is the group that controls territory. And my world of counterterrorism for decades, this is pretty unique. Al Qaeda never controlled territory in Afghanistan. The Taliban did. Al Qaeda focused, for example, on those attacks of 9/11.

What ISIS is trying to do is to accelerate this global revolution of people that want to turn to a purer state of Islam by owning geography. I think in the end this will be their defeat, this will be their Achilles heel. But that is unique in terms of their ability to own these cities.

But on the other hand there is something else going on that you are suggesting, and that is beyond owning this territory, this message they are transmitting to western Europe, to north Africa, to Yemen, to cities across America, that if you have never traveled to the Middle East, if you have never been to Syria, if you never met an ISIS member, just listen to our message and go out and do something. That's what I think you saw happen in the city in France yesterday.

BLACKWELL: Let me ask you about the warning connected to the Fourth of July holiday. This bulletin is coming from the homeland security department FBI national counterterrorism center. Without specific known active plots, and that's the guidance we are getting with this bulletin, what is this based on, simply the environment or something more?

MUDD: This is about vigilance, not intelligence. If you are sitting at that seat and I sat in that seat for a long time, we are sitting there saying we're seeing an environment over the past year or two has changed fundamentally. We are not looking at centrally coordinated plots from a group like Al Qaeda or ISIS. We are just looking at typically young men who are acting on their own.

In the past, you would not have thought that Al Qaeda would try to focus on an event like July Fourth to conduct an attack. What they would say is if they are ready to go, let's go. Let's not wait for a specific date.

[10:35:03] Now you are saying, and this bulletin is an example of that, hey there are a bunch of kids out there in cities in American and Europe who are deciding to go any day. To be vigilant, we had better warn local and state police and tribal police to look out on July Fourth. I don't think you would have seen that 10 years ago.

BLACKWELL: All right, Phil Mudd, always appreciate the insight.

MUDD: Thank you.

PAUL: An activist in South Carolina takes the Confederate flag issue in her own hands, and I mean that literally. She is arrested now after climbing a flagpole and pulling it down. Our pane is weighing in on this controversy that's just happened in the last few hours.

Also, speaking of the flag today, President Obama had some tough conversations this week addressing racism and hate, all amidst major Supreme Court victories. We are going to take you through all of it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: We've been following breaking news this morning out of South Carolina. Two activists arrested this morning for removing the Confederate flag from the South Carolina state house grounds there in Columbia. The flag was replaced about an hour later, put back atop that flagpole.

The backlash is not isolated to South Carolina, we know. For example, in New Orleans, protesters burned Confederate flags in front of the Robert E. Lee statue.

[10:40:00] Joining us now to talk about this, Yale Law Professor James Forman and Emmy winning actor Joe Morton, many know him as Eli Pope from the hit show "Scandal." You will get to know him as Dr. Charles Russell from the new TNT drama "Proof." Joe, James, professor, good to have both of you this morning.

JOE MORTON, ACTOR: Good morning, how are you?

BLACKWELL: I'm very well, very well. Joe, I want to start with you, because you made some headlines when you addressed this controversy as Eli Pope on "The Nightly Show" with Larry Wilmore. Let's watch a bit of that and then we'll talk on the other side.

MORTON: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MORTON: You lose the war and all you want to do is make my people pay for it. You think you love this country. What you love is that corruption of the red, white, and blue you call valor. What you love is the satisfaction that message brings with people who feel they need to give that flag some credence, like it stands for something more than hate, fighting whether to tear it down from atop your state building or not. You are a bigot, and I am disappointed in the way you treat my country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: All right, so how much of that was Eli Pope? I guess all of that. But how much does Joe Morton agree with Eli Pope?

MORTON: If you look at the history of the flag, it's a battle flag. It's not a flag of peace. It was originally sort of enduring the Civil War, used, one, so you couldn't confuse it with the union flag. But two, it came from the northern Virginia army. It was a flag that was very popular. And it was about bottle. In 1962, that same flag was put on top of the state building in South Carolina in defiant defense against what was happening in the south, which ways desegregation, which was integration. I mean originally, that flag, again, as I say, during the civil war, was anti-abolitionism and emancipation.

BLACKWELL: Professor Forman, that's an important point a lot of people don't take into consideration. It is not like this flag has been up since the end of the civil war. It went up in the '60s.

JAMES FORMAN, YALE LAW PROFESSOR: That's right. And I really learned that myself when I did some research in law school. I am from Atlanta. And back when I was a kid in the 1980s in Atlanta, the Georgia state flag was mostly the Confederate battle flag with a little Georgia state seal stuck on the end. And I had to sit in my high school, majority black high school in Atlanta after the civil rights movement, and I had to watch that flag go up every day outside my homeroom.

And when I got to law school, I started doing research, and I found out that that flag, which I thought had come from the Civil War and had started in the civil war, it wasn't changed to look the way it did in Georgia until 1955, 1956, in response to Brown versus Board of Education. So the dates changed. South Carolina was '62. Georgia was in the '50s. But the story is the same. The flag, which started out as a symbol of fighting for slavery, resistance against the union army, then became resistance to civil rights. And I think one of the things that's happened over the past really week is we have started to see the flag clearly for what it is.

BLACKWELL: Let's talk about what happened this morning, Joe, get your reaction to the breaking news this morning that an activist climbed to the top of this flagpole in the Civil Rights Memorial in front of the state house. We know her now as Brittany Newsome. She explained her actions. She said this, quote, "We can't wait any longer, and it's time for a new chapter where we are sincere about dismantling white supremacy and building toward true racial justice and equality." Your reaction to the way in which this flag came off state property for the first time, by our counting, in more than 50 years? MORTON: I think what we just witnessed is an act of nonviolent civil

disobedience. She clearly, purposely broke the law in order to bring attention to a point that we all need to be talking about. She will have to pay the consequences for it, which means, as Martin Luther King did, be put in jail. But in fact, what she did will bring attention and we'll continue this conversation about the flag.

Now, I think we should be clear that this flag atop of the South Carolina state building is a very different matter than having it in your own home or having it on your license plate. I think anything that involves the state should not have anything to do with the flag. I think anyone that wants to have it in their home or have it in their bathroom or have it wherever they want to have it is their right and their privilege. But when it comes to this country, that flag should not be atop of any state capital building.

BLACKWELL: Professor, I wonder what your response is or how you found the comments of President Obama during the eulogy for Pastor Clemente Pinckney this weekend.

FORMAN: I found his comments incredibly powerful for exactly the reason we have been discussing, because he said, listen, this isn't about a conversation about the valor of your ancestors. This is a conversation about what this war was over and what they were fighting for. And that is not something that we can celebrate.

[10:45:13] And I think the only thing -- the next step in this conversation where he didn't quite go was the connection between that history of slavery and present day reality in the United States, because that legacy -- I want the flag taken down. I want it retired to a museum. But I don't want us to stop talking about the legacy of slavery and how that impacts things like wealth disparities in America and how that impacts our attitudes, how we see black people. The whole idea of black lives not mattering, that's rooted in slavery. That's the source of it.

BLACKWELL: Yes, the activities of the last 10 days I've said definitely put an exclamation point on race relations not only in South Carolina but across the country. Over the next few weeks and months the sentence that proceeds that exclamation point will still be written by people depending upon what they do with this moment or if the energy just putters out and people go back to the way things were.

MORTON: We have to remember that this last incident, the shooting of the nine people in the church, are very much like what happened in Birmingham, Alabama, those four girls when that church was blown up, and that what gave permission for those things to happen I believe is because they all wore that flag. The flag is kind of the thing that moves them on to do what they want to do. So that's why it is important for that flag to come down.

BLACKWELL: Professor James Forman, I thank you so much, and Emmy winning actor Joe Morton, star of "Proof," the new drama on TNT as Dr. Charles Russell, I remember as Byron Douglas from "A Different World" a few years back.

(LAUGHTER)

BLACKWELL: I appreciate having you both with us this morning.

MORTON: Thank you.

FORMAN: Thank you.

PAUL: Thank you, gentlemen.

The president is having a big week with victories, some say in Congress and the Supreme Court, and bold moves on race relations. Is this the week, some people are asking, that defines his legacy? We're going to take a look at that after the break.

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[10:50:53] PAUL: We're continuing to follow breaking news on the manhunt for escaped killer David Sweat just one day after his prison break partner was shot and killed by police, which means David Sweat, for the first time, we believe, is running from police alone. These are live pictures where police have set up check points, hundreds of officers, 1,100, swarming this area in upstate New York. They say they have Sweat, and these are their words, "contained." We are going to bring you a live report at the top of the hours and keep you posted as things develop.

BLACKWELL: We certainly will. What a week for President Obama. Take a look at some of the headlines. You've got from the "New York Times" "Obama gains vindication and secures legacy with health care ruling." Huffington Post here, "With health care win, Obama cements legacy." "Politico," "Obama's health care legacy sealed. Yahoo! Politics, "The Obama legacy on race."

Let's talk about legacy. Joining me now is presidential historian Douglas Brinkley. Are the events of this week, and it's sometimes difficult to assess it in a 24-hour news environment while it is happening, but are these achievements great enough to be cemented 50 years from now this is what will be the standout in the Obama administration?

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: I think so. I think we can now say that President Obama is a transformative president. That's what he always wanted. He changed American society. And this was the payday week.

Mainly it's about Obamacare. It is a very important signature achievement. People talk about it in line with FDR and Social Security and Lyndon Johnson and Medicaid and Medicare. It's a living legacy for the president, meaning people 50 years from now, 100 years from now will be using the term "Obamacare" even if they're not carrying an Obamacare card with them.

In the race, you know, President Obama on race and gender has been a transformative president. Two of the Supreme Court justices are women appointed by Barack Obama. There have been a lot of racial flare-ups that we've been covering at CNN nonstop. But something turned this week with the Confederate flag coming down, and you feel a kind of white supremacy, if you like, in retreat. President Obama seems to be on the top of his game with a lot of momentum now as he is heading into the last 18 months of his presidency.

BLACKWELL: Yes, because he says he is in some way fearless. The week ended with a discussion about race. It started with a discussion about race on that podcast. Let's listen to part of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: I know what I'm doing and I'm fearless.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For real, you are not pretending to be fearless?

OBAMA: I'm not pretending to be fearless.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

OBAMA: And when you get to that point --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Freedom.

OBAMA: And also part of that fearlessness is because you have screwed up enough times that you know that --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's all happened.

OBAMA: It's all happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Douglas, I just imagine, if those words had come out of the mouth of George W. Bush, we would have having a very different conversation. If they came out of the mouth of Bill Clinton, we would be having a different conversation.

BRINKLEY: That's true. But when he says the word "fearless," he proved it yesterday by singing "Amazing Grace." It was good but the speech itself, it is brave to sing for any of us. But the speech he gave was a genius yesterday. He was able to move all of Charleston and all of the nation. He is I think now on civil rights fronts with the putting of the gay flag, the rainbow flag on the White House, gay marriage coming in. People are looking at America as a more inclusive country because of his presidency. And he is going to live on, President Obama, who said anybody can be president. I am not just first African-American, which he is, but I am also opening the way for women and Latinos and gays to get more involved in American electoral politics.

BLACKWELL: Very quickly, because we are running out of time here, you say that Obama is now clearly a transformative president. But his approval ratings are still pretty low. "The Wall Street Journal" poll says 53 percent of people do not approve of the job he is doing. How do we reconcile these two?

[10:55:00] BRINKLEY: I wouldn't worry about the polls at this moment. I think he is going to get a bounce from this week coming up, for starters. And those fluctuate a lot. But this is a president that has been able to have about a 50 percent approval rating most of the way. I know he has hit in the 30s or bounced back up. But he has pretty much stayed around 50 percent. He is a polarizing president, don't get me wrong. But he is not a mediocre president. He is going to be on that above average list of presidents.

BLACKWELL: All right, Douglas Brinkley, presidential historian, thank you so much.

BRINKLEY: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: We'll be right back.

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PAUL: We are always so glad to have you with us. We hope you make some good memories today. But don't go far.

BLACKWELL: Yes, don't go away. Much more ahead in the next hour of the CNN's Newsroom. We turn it over to our colleague, Suzanne Malveaux.

PAUL: Hello.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, nice to see you guys.

PAUL: You too.

(LAUGHTER)

PAUL: Always.

[11:00:00] MALVEAUX: All right, good to see you. It is 11:00 on the east coast. I'm Suzanne Malveaux in for Fredricka Whitfield. The Newsroom starts right now.