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Law Enforcement in Pursuit of Sweat; ISIS Attacks Again; Church Shooting Victim Laid to Rest; Wal-Mart CEO on Wages: We are a Ladder of Opportunity; Justices Sharply Divided Over Same Sex Marriage Ruling. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired June 27, 2015 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Top of the hour, 4:00 Eastern. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. We begin with our breaking news out of upstate New York. In hot pursuit and hoping the trail has not gone cold. 1200 law enforcement officers scouring the wooded area in upstate New York looking for one remaining convicted killer, a prison inmate still on the loose after three weeks.

A law enforcement source telling us at CNN there have been no new sightings of convicted murderer David Sweat and the bloodhounds have not picked up his scent. Sweat and fellow inmate Richard Matt escaped from prison as I said 22 days ago. He's a convicted murder, he shot and killed a sheriff's deputy 22 times. We have also just learned that Richard Matt's body after he was shot by police has now been taken to Albany for an autopsy.

Let's get straight to our Alexandra Field. She has been on this story from the beginning. She's in Malone, New York, where Alex, late yesterday, all of a sudden this breaking news that Richard Matt has been shot and killed and then the authorities thought that they were really on the heels of David Sweat. So what happened?

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. They certainly hoped that they were on the heels of David Sweat, mainly because they have been pursuing the theory that these two men have been traveling together since they broke out of that maximum security prison some three weeks ago and that means that they have to exhaust every conceivable lead in this area. That's exactly what they're doing today.

But yes, it's been almost a day now since Richard Matt was gunned down. They did find a second set of tracks in the area which they thought could lead them toward David Sweat. What they were able to do with that information was to form a perimeter that is significantly smaller than the previous search area, Poppy. That previous perimeter was some 75 square miles. This is a very tight perimeter of 22 square miles and it's a line of sight perimeter meaning that you've got law enforcement officers literally lined up no farther than the ability to see one another.

Within that perimeter they are executing grid searches. So what we are being told by law enforcement officers on the ground is that while there is no specific evidence necessarily that David Sweat remains here, they feel that if he is here, he will be caught. I spoke to the Franklin County sheriff a short while ago and he says that while this is just a number of miles away from that cabin that both fugitives were linked to a week ago, that this area is significantly different in terms of the kind of shelter or cover it could provide a lone fugitive on the run.

Listen to what he told me.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FIELD (on camera): Clearly the survival strategy for these men was to go cabin to cabin. Could David Sweat still be doing that alone within this perimeter?

SHERIFF KEVIN MULVERHILL, FRANKLIN COUNTY, NEW YORK: Yes, but I don't think the availability of cabins within this perimeter is the same as what they've had until they got to this point. Because of the area, it's not as back country as what the original cabin was. So any hunting party that goes into this particular area during hunting season doesn't really use a cabin. He uses a base. They can go from their vehicles. The perimeter they're in now doesn't pertain to the cabins or outposts, areas they have been through previously.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FIELD: Poppy, authorities linked the fugitives to a couple of cabins in these woods. Of course they were believing that the men were going from cabin to cabin, but what we have learned from the sheriff is that these cabins aren't terribly far apart from each other. The sheriff estimates that the men were likely moving one to two miles a day, if in fact they were still together.

Poppy, you know, that's a very small distance. He surmises that's because they had become increasingly aware of the law enforcement presence that had descended on Franklin County and they may have really been bumping up on that perimeter.

HARLOW: What about this camper, this RV that was shot at? The authorities are now saying it was shot at by Richard Matt from a shotgun he likely obtained from one of those cabins, but why?

FIELD: Yes. This is a pretty amazing confluence of events here, Poppy. Authorities had said from the beginning that in order to find these men in this sort of vast wilderness they would have to rely on tips from the public. The question we can't answer is why Richard Matt would be opening fire in the middle of the afternoon if he was targeting that RV, if he was targeting something else.

That's simply a question that law enforcement can't answer. But it's imperative here to understand that that's really what broke this case. Because there were a couple of things that happened all at once. You had those - a couple of reported burglaries at cabins which sent law enforcement to this area. Then you had this round of shots fired, a man who felt that maybe he got a flat tire while driving his RV. He was miles away when he discovered it was a bullet hole.

But we also understand that police were headed back to that area where the shots were fired even before those shots were fired because another person had called 911 saying that he noticed a liquor bottle was out on the table in his cabin where it hadn't been. So this was really about a lot of people coming together, noticing disturbances on their property and then the RV camper driver realizing that he had been hit and helping police to backtrack to the area where the shots were fired, and of course, we all know what happened next.

Authorities helicoptering in doing a sweep of the area and having that confrontation with Richard Matt.

HARLOW: Alexandra Field reporting for us live this afternoon. Alex, thank you for that. We will get back to you in just a moment.

[16:05:03]

I do want to talk more about this because David Sweat, the other convict, is now alone, he is desperate. He is on the run. What is his next move likely to be? How is law enforcement tracking him down? Now, how do they keep him from slipping through that intense dragnet?

Joining me to talk about it, CNN law enforcement analyst, former FBI assistant director Tom Fuentes. He's in Washington, with me here in New York is criminologist, CNN contributor Casey Jordan. Guys, thank you very much.

Casey, let me begin with you. When you look at this, how desperate is Sweat likely to be? Because the authorities still do believe these two men were together.

CASEY JORDAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Absolutely. Desperate again is just too soft of a word because if they had that initial plan a where Joyce Mitchell was going to pick them up in a car and drive them seven hours, they may have had a plan b --

HARLOW: It doesn't seem like it though. They are so close to the prison.

JORDAN: OK. But that's the point. They don't have a plan b or c that is working for them. So going to cabin to cabin, we could all come up with that. He is making it up minute by minute, day by day. But if he does find a radio in one of these cabins and hears on the news, it's very likely he knows what's happened to his buddy.

He has got to make some decisions. He's got to either pick up his pace and try to get to the Canadian border and get across or just continue to lay low and hope that if he can bide his time, I think he's figuring out as he goes. I don't think he really has a good plan at this point.

HARLOW: Tom, give us some perspective here of past prison breaks. I mean they are so rare, especially a confluence of events like this one. Have we ever seen a period in time where someone has escaped from prison, a maximum security prison in this country, and then actually been able to live a life under a different identity in the general public? Because obviously that's his goal here. TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Poppy, I'm not aware of one

where it's been successful over the long run. Don't forget, many of these prison breaks are just spontaneous decisions where they have a chance to jump over the fence, run out an open gate, jump in a truck as it's leaving the facility, something where they didn't plan or have a plan to do anything once they got out. They just burst out. Those kind of people are usually caught pretty quickly. Often in that case, the normal fugitive investigation where they have to go to a family member, a parent, a former colleague or friend or someone to get support, is what causes them to be caught, when they show up on somebody's doorstep that we expect them to go to.

But in this case, what's confounded us all along is if they spent a year on the plan to get out of that prison, is that their only plan, relying on Joyce when they popped that manhole cover? That's why we all just expected if they did that much planning to escape, they must have done an equal or close to an equal amount of planning what to do once they got out.

Because in retrospect, the first night they got out, they had an eight to ten hour head start. They could have walked to Canada then before anybody was looking for them. That's what we don't understand. They're this close after three weeks? You know, it's a question mark.

HARLOW: I'm wondering, Casey, when you look at a case like this and you look at the mindset, when you look at someone who has nothing to lose, this is someone who is already in prison for life for this murder, someone who may well be armed, is this someone you think will survive through being captured again, to be thrown back in prison under worse circumstances?

JORDAN: No, he's not going back to prison. It's really that simple. We do have cases where people have gotten away for many years, 17 years, that sort of thing, the Oklahoma case where the correctional officer's wife helped him. He was away for 17 years and did create a new life but he had help.

Now, if Mr. Sweat stays on his own, he is really going to unravel quickly and we have seen this again and again with just people on the lam in general trying to avoid law enforcement after committing heinous crimes. They start making huge mistakes towards the end. When they get really tired, when they realize that their buddy is dead, when they realize they have nothing to lose and it's almost not that they want to get caught but they just quit caring.

They just get a major sense of indifference as to whether they get caught. If he can't get away with it, once police close in on him, I really don't think he intends to survive that. You also have to wonder if subconsciously he's going to really start just messing up or staying in the same place to where they close in on him quickly.

HARLOW: Tom, the fact that the bloodhounds have not picked up any scent of his, does that surprise you, does that concern you, if they're working under this theory these two guys were together until late yesterday when Richard Matt was shot and killed? FUENTES: It surprises me a lot because yesterday when they said they

were in hot pursuit and they had just come from a cabin that they were both in, and they had two sets of tracks where Matt was gunned down, then I thought the only reason they're saying they're in hot pursuit is the bloodhounds are howling and excited and they're in the chase, in the hunt, and I didn't expect them to necessarily have a visual observation of these guys or of Sweat, I mean, in the forest, but that maybe the excitement of the dogs led them to believe we're close, we're right on and they were putting out statements, we're in hot pursuit, we're right on top of them.

HARLOW: Right.

[16:10:11]

FUENTES: And now they say the dogs didn't have a scent all along. But as you recall, I have been questioning the effectiveness of dogs on many of these situations.

HARLOW: All right. Tom, Casey, stay with me. We will take a quick break. When we come back on the other side we're going to talk about another aspect of this. Richard Matt's half brother speaking out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: One prison escapee dead, authorities believe they are hot on the trail of the other, but they have had no sighting of David Sweat, who is still on the lam. His fellow escapee, Richard Matt, was shot and killed late yesterday. His half brother says he is relieved.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WAYNE SCHIMPF, RICHARD MATT'S HALF BROTHER: It might sound bad, but I was in a way hoping this was the outcome. I still don't think of him as the Rick that I knew. I can only think of the man that threatened to kill me and killed other people and escaped. After my wife and I had testified, one of the last things I said to the detectives in the Niagara County courthouse was what happens if he escapes. They said that will never happen. I had said I don't believe it and will cross that when it comes to.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you find yourself there now?

SCHIMPF: It's my worst nightmare. There hasn't been a night that's gone by in 20 years even when he was in Mexico that when I put my head on the pillow I wasn't worried.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Casey Jordan, Tom Fuentes back with me now. Casey, what's your reaction to hearing that from his brother?

JORDAN: When your own blood is concerned that you would escape, he's probably been living in fear knowing that his brother is out there and might be coming towards family members to seek help. So I think it really just goes to the character of Mr. Sweat. I haven't heard one person, we never are (INAUDIBLE) when anybody dies but not one person regrets the outcome of this. He was armed. He was dangerous, he had murdered two people before and he wasn't going to stop.

[16:15:02]

I truly believe that the shot he fired at that camper was meant to disable the vehicle or shoot the driver so that he could commandeer the vehicle. That kind of shot, why do that? Why draw attention to him? I think we are very lucky that no one decide in the act of getting mr. Matt.

HARLOW: Absolutely. Tom Fuentes, you have these 1,200 officers on the trail right now, using helicopters, they're using planes with infrared devices, they're using bloodhounds. Do you still operate under the belief that these two men were indeed together as of late yesterday if they have zero idea, it sounds like, where Sweat is right now? No eyes.

FUENTES: Well, I think, Poppy, we just don't know for sure what they know. They have been very controlled in what they have given out publicly. If they are keeping all 1,100 officers on that perimeter, the helicopters land and plan their next set of grid searches for nighttime so that's probably ongoing right now, getting the dogs ready. If everything is all set and still in place at that spot, then that indicates to me that they at least have a good reason to believe that they have not - or that he has not gotten out of that perimeter.

HARLOW: All right. Casey Jordan, thank you so much. Tom Fuentes, thank you as well.

Switching gears here to a remarkable film you are going to see only here on CNN this weekend. In his farewell concert tour, music legend Glen Campbell joining forces with his family for the biggest fight of his life. His fight against Alzheimer's.

CNN's Elizabeth Cohen showing us how to reduce your chances of this horrific disease.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Sunday night, CNN is airing an incredible film about legendary country music singer Glen Campbell. He has been suffering from Alzheimer's disease and he's not alone.

Five million Americans also suffer from Alzheimer's. Let's take a look at some of the top warning signs that someone is developing Alzheimer's disease. Memory loss that disrupts daily life. For example, forgetting dates or events and not remembering them later. Also, challenges in planning or solving problems like keeping track of monthly bills.

Also, difficulty in completing familiar tasks such as driving to a familiar location and confusing with time or place and not figuring it out later.

Also, new problems with words. For example, forgetting the word for watch and calling it a hand clock. According to the Alzheimer's Association, Alzheimer's disease is the only one of the top 10 causes of death in this country that can't be cured or prevented or slowed down.

Now there is some new research that shows that you may be able to reduce your risk of getting Alzheimer's disease if you take these steps. Engage in regular exercise that gets your heart rate up. Quit smoking. Eat a healthy diet low in fat and sugar. Get enough good quality sleep. And stay socially active. We've got lots more information about Alzheimer's disease on our website at cnn.com/health.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:22:15]

HARLOW: Well, Friday's wave of terror attacks in France, in Tunisia and in Kuwait has law enforcement across the globe on edge. Barbara Starr reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dead and wounded tourists being pulled off a beach in Tunisia. Just one of three horrifying attacks on three continents.

At this seaside hotel on Tunisia's Mediterranean coast. A Shia mosque in Kuwait. An American-owned industrial plant in France. Dozens of innocents killed and injured. Growing worry ISIS affiliates and lone wolves are behind it all.

JOHN KIRBY, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON: There is a common thread here of extremists. I don't believe we have seen any evidence of tactical coordination.

STARR: But one U.S. official tells CNN "we are in a heightened period of concern." FBI and counterterrorism officials issued a bulletin to law enforcement across the U.S. warning of possible terrorist threats around the July 4th holiday, though nothing specific. But there are worrisome indicators.

It's currently the Islamic holy month of Ramadan. ISIS's official spokesman has called for fighters to "rush over to jihad and rise up," a call to killing. It's been a year since ISIS' leader, Abu Bakar al Baghdadi, emerged from hiding to declare his caliphate.

In Tunisia, nearly 40 people, many western tourists, killed when gunmen attacked.

UNIDENTIFED MALE: We went to our left and hid in the underpass with two people who work at the hotel. We were in a large room without lights. We stayed there for two hours.

STARR: The attackers had sworn allegiance to ISIS, the U.S. believes.

Next door in Libya is a failed state and already a new center of ISIS power. U.S. intelligence indicates ISIS money, fighters and training camps are here.

In Kuwait, a bomb tore through a Shia mosque, killing 25 worshippers, injuring more than 200. The perpetrators, U.S. officials say it was an ISIS affiliate based in Saudi Arabia.

And in France, at an industrial gas plant, an attacker who had been on a terror watch list beheaded his boss.

(on camera): Spain also increased its terror alert level. Many countries increasing their watchfulness.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: All right. Former CIA counter terrorism analyst Buck Sexton is with me in New York. CNN national security analyst Peter Bergen is with me from Washington. It's pretty astounding what's happening. There is so much news yesterday.

I think in the United States this didn't get as much attention as it perhaps did globally but Buck, to you first, in a span of just a few hours, terror attacks unfolding in Europe, in North Africa, in the Middle East, and you say that these three attacks represent different flash points now in this conflict against ISIS. How so?

[16:25:15]

BUCK SEXTON, FMR. CIA COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Really, the choice of targets shows you the different conflicts that are playing out now. And the Islamic State is deciding, for example, to exacerbate sectarian tensions in the case of Kuwait by trying to elevate the conflict between Sunni and Shiite and by forcing the government of Kuwait, for example, to even come in and try to calm things down. They say see, this government is in the pocket of the Shiite. This is playing out in Iraq, this is playing out elsewhere across the Middle East right now.

That's sort of another front of that conflict. What you see in the case of Tunisia is attacking westerners by jihadist interests and jihadist groups there in Muslim land. In the case of France you have what seems to be a home-grown radicalized individual who probably didn't have any direct contact with the Islamic state but the Islamic state's call to waging your own form of jihad in the west is something he took upon himself.

So these are the different layers of conflict that ISIS is constantly engaged in. Each one of these target sets really represents the different spheres of ISIS attack. HARLOW: So Peter, you just wrote this fascinating op-ed on cnn.com

about exactly that. You say "this underlines the diversity of global jihadist terrorism today." How has the picture changed?

PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, I mean, just sort of adding to what Buck said, if you look at the tactics in the three different attacks, I mean, they are representative, the tactics we're going to see going forward. The home-grown extremist in France with no seeming links to ISIS doing a relatively low impact attack that kills one person, a much more well-organized attack in Tunisia with people who undoubtedly had some form of training which ended up killing a lot of people, and a suicide attack in Kuwait which also killed a lot of people.

So it's not just the targets that Buck talked about, it's the kind of mix of tactics. It's bad news for countries in the Middle East in particular. We are unlikely to see these ultra well organized attacks in the west because getting people in is not that easy, but we have seen a lot of these home-grown inspired ISIS attacks in Ottawa, Copenhagen, in Garland, Texas. They don't kill a lot of people but they certainly are relatively frequent.

HARLOW: So to that point, Buck, yesterday this warning came out from Homeland Security, from FBI, saying extremists could launch an attack here in the United States on the fourth of July. Do you agree with Peter that if indeed we do see something like that, they mentioned by the way there are no active plots that are known, this is just a warning, but we are looking at potentials for more one-off situations with less casualties such as what we saw attempted in Garland, Texas, rather than these big attacks like what we saw in Tunisia?

SEXTON: Yes. Historically, that's been the case. It's much more likely just based on statistics that if there is an attack here in the homeland, of course, 9/11 and some others notwithstanding, that they tend to be lower level casualty attacks, not always the case. We tend to see individuals who self-radicalize and don't have the kind of training as Peter said that was on display with this person who had some tactics and techniques he used in Tunisia to shoot a bunch of people on a beach and unarmed. But he obviously had rehearsed some of this and had some understanding what he was going to do. He didn't just grab the nearest sharp object and try to stab somebody, something we have seen on U.S. soil but whether it was the CIA or NYPD intelligence division, there is always a sense of heightened risk when there's a big holiday this time of year. That they have no specific threat planning, means exactly that.

It is a period because it is Ramadan and jihadists say that's Ramadan is a time that there should be an enhanced effort of jihad. It is also near the one year anniversary of the declaration of the caliphate by the Islamic state. You have those sort of propagandists, reasons why there might be more likely to be an attack now but again, it's mostly even if there were an attack it would be along the smaller scale. At least we hope so.

HARLOW: Peter, you wrote in your op-ed what we saw unfold on Friday, just a remarkable three terror attacks in the span of hours, that's what we can expect going forward. Why does this have to be the new norm?

BERGEN: Well, I don't mean that we are going to see multiple terror attacks in three countries on a given day going forward. But the kinds of tactics and the kind of targets we saw are what we can expect in the future. If there's an extremist in Europe who wants to attack the United States, it's a lot easier - to attack an obscure factory owned by an American company in France as we saw. And so really more about the tactics than the selection of targets. The Shiite target, the western tourists, the American target, the kinds of casualties, the kinds of recruits we are seeing, that's the kind of mix we are going to see going forward.

HARLOW: And in Tunisia, yet another attack on that tourism industry that is so critical to that economy after the museum attack and now the beach attack, these innocent civilians on a beach. It is just incredibly disturbing.

Buck Sexton, Peter Bergen, thank you both very much. We'll be right back. More news after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: In Charleston, South Carolina, today, inside of the Emanuel AME Church, loved ones gathered to say good-bye to Cynthia Hurd. She was one of those nine people gunned down 10 days ago during bible study.

Yesterday, President Obama delivering an emotional eulogy for Reverend Clementa Pinckney, the pastor at Mother Emanuel, also another one of the victims.

Let's talk about all of this and the bigger picture about what this week has been like for race relations in America. With me, Bakari Sellers, CNN contributor and former member of the South Carolina House of Representatives.

Thank you for being with me, Bakari.

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Thank you for having me, Poppy.

HARLOW: Listening to some of the things in the eulogy, the president talking at length about race relations yesterday, breaking out in song, "Amazing Grace." What do you think the president did on that front this week?

SELLERS: Well, what he did was took us to a different place. There was a great deal of expectation about his speech. The eulogy was so important to us all. And what he did was he challenged us. It wasn't the culmination of anything. But he laid out very specific challenges on how we need to move forward, not just as black Americans but as all Americans.

It was very, very powerful and it was shrouded with such grace, to say the least.

HARLOW: One of the things, one of the lines that stood out to me a lot actually is when he addressed race inequality, saying people should guard against not just racial slurs but also, quote, "the subtle impulse to call Johnny back for a job interview but not Jamal".

What did you make of that?

SELLERS: Well, I stood up and clapped. I have to tell you I was actually literally having church in there yesterday.

[16:35:03] We turned the TD Arena into a sanctuary.

But even more importantly, when you're talking about these institutional barriers that divide us, we need to bring those down. One of the things he followed that up with is Senator Pinckney died opening his doors to a man he didn't know. That's important.

We need to keep those doors open. We need to keep that dialogue open. We don't need to close the doors that Senator Pinckney opened. I think he was going back, illustrating that with his comment about Jamal and Johnny.

HARLOW: Let's take a listen to part of this eulogy yesterday, the eulogy he gave for the Reverend Clementa Pinckney. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As a senator, he represented a sprawling swath of the low country, a place that has long been one of the most neglected in America, a place still wracked by poverty and inadequate schools, a place where children can still go hungry and the sick can go without treatment. A place that needed somebody like Clem.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Is this the president that so many Americans, black, white, Hispanic, any race, any sexual orientation, so many Americans have been waiting to hear from?

SELLERS: It is, Poppy, because in all honesty, even last night as we went to sleep and cheered his speech, there were many young Americans, many children, who are going to bed hungry. We have a place in South Carolina called a "Quarter of Shame" where kids are going to school where the heating doesn't work, the infrastructure is falling apart. Along the same corridor you have what's known as Stroke Belt, where individuals who have high instances of preventable diseases such as cardiovascular disease and diabetes and other things.

Actually, in South Carolina right near Clementa's district, we have some of the highest rates of amputations in the entire country. Infant mortality rates are nearly double for blacks compared to whites. These are serious issues that we have to talk about. It's not just the flag. That needs to come down, that is the beginning of the discussion.

But again, he challenged us to make sure that we don't let this legacy die when that flag comes down. HARLOW: And that is what so many people have said in the wake of

Reverend Clementa's death is that he spoke for the people whose voices were not being heard. And now, we can. I think we heard the president say we can carry that on into action as a nation.

Bakari Sellers, thank you very much.

SELLERS: Thank you for covering this with such honesty, Poppy.

HARLOW: Of course.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: In today's "American Opportunity" segment, our one-on-one interview with Sean Parker. He's a legend in Silicon Valley. He's made billions of dollars as the cofounder of Napster and founding president of Facebook. He is now giving away $600 million.

I sat down with them this week for a wide-ranging interview and asked him about the growing gap between the rich and the poor in this country.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Does the growing gap between the rich and the poor in this country matter?

SEAN PARKER, BOARD MEMBER, SPOTIFY & CO-FOUNDER: I think it's a very important question that a lot of folks in the bubble in Silicon Valley in particular, the finance bubble in New York, really don't take seriously enough, because we live in these coastal bubbles and we don't see the fact that there's an uneven economic recovery happening throughout the country, that there's a lot of people who are left out of this hyper-growth that's occurring in technology and finance and elsewhere.

And I think if we don't address that fundamental problem, you know, it's -- not only is it going to get worse, but it's going to lead to a society that's very unequal, where social mobility is a problem, where the American Dream itself maybe starts to disappear. I think we all need to be spending more time thinking about what to do about it.

HARLOW: One way that some are attacking this here in Los Angeles, the city council has just raised the minimum wage to $15 an hour by 2020. Some people love that, some people hate that. Some people say that is not the answer and it is going to cost too many jobs.

Is it the right answer? What should happen with minimum wage in this country?

PARKER: I think generally speaking, we have minimum wage for a reason so you know, there are periods in time where it needs to be adjusted.

HARLOW: What should happen now? PARKER: It depends on where. The cost of living is so different from

one part of the country to another. Should the federal minimum wage come up, there's a pretty good argument that it should. It happens from time to time. You know, it might be overdue.

But that's a macro economic question that's complicated and hard to answer and it gets then caught up in a lot of politics. It's definitely the case that there are places in the country where cost of living is incredibly high, where you have extremely well-paid technology workers, for instance, living in places like San Francisco where you have a working poor that's been sort of pushed out of the city by rising real estate prices and something needs to be done about that. And that can be a combination of things around, you know, affordable housing, raising the minimum wage, doing really whatever's necessary for a place to become so homogenously wealthy.

You're jeopardizing your own existence and you are putting people in a position that is unsustainable and difficult.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Sean Parker is not the only big name this week weighing in on that minimum wage debate. A fascinating one-on-one interview with the CEO of Wal-Mart, our Cristina Alesci talked to him about his decision to raise wages for workers to at least $10 an hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOUG MCMILLON, CEO, WAL-MART: When our stores are at their best, the store associates feel a great level of ownership for their store. The store manager, he or she feels like that is their store because in many ways, it is. They have the authority. They get to make the decisions that result in a great store.

But not only do we want the store manager to feel that way, we want the people that work there to feel that way, including the people who run the various departments within a super center. So, if you are a toy department manager, we want you to care about your toy department, run it like it's your own, have pride.

[16:45:06] And if we replicate that across the store, the store itself becomes great. Customers are happy, the whole model works. And what I've seen in my time is that that creates opportunity for people.

You know, you might have joined Wal-Mart because you needed summer work. All of a sudden, you find out you really like the culture, there's a chance to be a store manager and then as a store manager, some day you might end up having a bigger job including my own. That's cool.

CRISTINA ALESCI, CNN MONEY CORRESPONDENT: Some critics have said that the government has had to use step-up benefits for the working poor like food stamps because companies like Wal-Mart don't pay people enough. What's your response to that?

MCMILLON: We have all kinds of jobs and one of the things that we need to keep in mind is that that first rung on the ladder needs to be reachable. If we set it at the right place we will be able to help people who are just getting started. Could be a college student, could be someone who's retired that wants to get a shot, get started in the business.

But if we set that rung too high, we'll have fewer jobs, we won't be able to hire as many people, we won't have as many part-timers that enable them to go to school while working. It reduces the employment base in the country potentially.

So, I think our job at Wal-Mart is to be that ladder of opportunity and the adjustments that we're making, $9, then $10, taking department managers for the more complex departments up to $13 and eventually $15 next year, all of that is designed to create a system together with our health care and all the other things we offer so that you can achieve something great. And we just don't need to set that first rung at such a high level

that people don't have a chance to even get those jobs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Much more on that interview on CNNmoney.com.

Still ahead here in the NEWSROOM, a landmark ruling, from two landmark rulings from the Supreme Court this week. On Friday, their decision settling the legal debate over same-sex marriage across this country. We're going to hear from a leader of a major church who weighs in, next.

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[16:51:12] HARLOW: You can bet a lot of gay and lesbian couples are getting married across this country today. They are celebrating yesterday's historic 5-4 Supreme Court ruling legalizing same-sex marriage across this country.

But it was clear from their opinions that there were sharp divisions among the justices.

Justice Kennedy writing for the majority in part, quote, "It would misunderstand these men and women to say they disrespect the idea of marriage. Their plea is that they do respect it. Respect it so deeply that they seek to find its fulfillment for themselves. Their hope is not to be condemned to live in loneliness, excluded from one of civilization's oldest institutions. They ask for equal dignity in the eyes of the law. The Constitution grants them that right."

Chief Justice John Roberts writing in his dissent, quote, "If you are among the many Americans of whatever sexual orientation who favor expanding same-session marriage, by all means, celebrate today's decision. Celebrate the achievement of a desired goal. Celebrate the opportunity for new expression of commitment to a partner. Celebrate the availability of new benefits. But do not celebrate the Constitution. It had nothing to do with it."

Let's talk more about this. Joining me from Washington, Dr. David Anderson. He is the founder and

senior pastor of Bridgeway Community Church.

Thank you for being with me, sir.

DR. DAVID ANDERSON, FOUNDER/SR. PASTOR, BRIDGEWAY COMMUNITY CHURCH: Poppy, it's good to be with you. Thanks.

HARLOW: I'd love to get your reaction to the high court's decision.

ANDERSON: Well, first of all, congratulations to those who are celebrating something new and progressive for them. Of course, as a spiritual leader of a church, there's always differing opinions, right?

So, when it comes to legality, that's different than morality.

HARLOW: So, let's talk about one of the things you wrote. You wrote in the wake of this decision, quote, "Love is the highest Christian value and all of us are called to it regardless of our politics."

ANDERSON: Absolutely.

HARLOW: What did you mean with that and do you agree with the decision?

ANDERSON: Well, love is the highest Christian value regardless of one's color, class, culture or even their gender, right? So we want to make sure that we stay at that level beyond the smaller disagreements that we might have. Even moral disagreements that we have or biblical disagreements we have, we still have to understand that you have to have grace and truth. But most of all, the number one value is love.

So how do we love people who may have a different opinion or different view of our morality? You've got to start with the way Jesus did it. And that is he serves them, he loves them, and he opens his arms to everyone.

HARLOW: Will you be marrying gay couples?

ANDERSON: Now, that I won't do because that violates my convictions of the Scriptures. So, I live in Maryland, right? My church is in Maryland, Bridgeway Community Church. So, I met with Governor O'Malley before it went legal in Maryland. I said, just make sure that I'm protected and that religious freedoms are protected, and he did. So, I'm OK with that.

HARLOW: I'm sure you are writing your sermon or it's written for tomorrow. I'm sure you are going to have a lot of questions to answer from congregants, maybe the congregants who are struggling with that, who believe love is the highest Christian value but might not agree with this court's decision.

What are you going to say to them? What are you going to say to your congregation tomorrow? ANDERSON: Well, here's the thing. I have already put my statement

out and there are people in our church who have differing views. Everything from the rainbow view to hang on here, it's completely a sin to even have an attraction to the same sex.

And so, how do you -- how can I be a bridge builder in the midst of that? You have to look at the scriptures clearly and the Lord says. But remember, the highest law is love. So I have already lost some church members just because of my statement, Poppy.

HARLOW: Really? Really?

I'm interested in whether -- you know, we are hearing from some who really oppose this vehemently, so many support it, too.

[16:55:04] But some that oppose it are pushing for the only thing that could potentially change this state by state, which is a constitutional amendment to put the power back in the states' hands. Are you someone who wants to see that? Or are you saying, look, this is the law of the land now, I may not agree with it but I'm not going to push to change the Constitution?

ANDERSON: Because there's a difference between legality and morality, I would not say you know what, let's legislate morality.

Listen, it's the law of the land. Guess what? You used to have to kill people because of adultery or because of other moral behaviors that you didn't agree with. We don't do that today.

And so, my goal is not to stop anyone who disagrees with my biblical views to not be able to enjoy the life that they want to live in a secular country. This is not a Christian nation. It's a secular nation, right?

And so, people who are atheist, people from different religions or people who are of my same faith, the Christians, but they don't believe the same thing I believe, guess what? They should be able to live freely just like me. That's what makes America beautiful, right?

HARLOW: Yes, it is, freedom for everyone.

David Anderson, so nice to have you on the program, Doctor. Please come back.

ANDERSON: I would love to come back. Thanks for having me.

HARLOW: Have a great service tomorrow. Thank you.

Straight ahead, we return to upstate New York. We are live from the scene of that intense search for convicted murderer David Sweat, who is still on the run. Next.

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