Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Supreme Court Rules on Congressional Districting; GOP Field Fractured over Same-Sex Ruling; Towns, Residents Celebrate End of Manhunt. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired June 29, 2015 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:29:43] DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Now police have a lot of tools at their disposal. They use what's called the Reid technique and they are allowed to lie to a suspect in order to extract a confession. But this is not a typical suspect confession. They know what happened. What they want is the details.

So I don't know that they need any pressing information at this moment. They may wait until he recovers. And again, if he's not -- if he's in and out of consciousness, any information really won't have that much value to him.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Why would he talk?

CEVALLOS: Well, there are a number of different reasons. Typical suspects may talk because they're made promises by the police or they think they'll get some favorable treatment. And that's probably the motivation here. This is somebody who is already going to be in prison for most of the rest of his life -- a safe bet.

COSTELLO: And he's probably thinking I'm going to be in solitary confinement.

CEVALLOS: And that's the key. What -- the question is what carrot can you dangle in front of this inmate and most likely it's prison classification. There are many different kinds of incarceration and New York state allows for even people who have pretty bad crimes of commitment to move up and down within the system.

As you know, these two inmates had made their way to the honor program at Clinton Correctional Facility, although it is my guess that they will probably not -- he will probably not be back in the honor program. He's going to be in the SHU and the SHU is special housing unit, and that's not as pleasant.

COSTELLO: Yes, it's probably a safe bet. So as far as the other prison guards at the Clinton Correctional Facility, those who might have had something to do with the escape, even inadvertently, they're probably pretty nervous right now.

CEVALLOS: They're incredibly nervous, but my guess is this. Talk about cooperation. Now, this escaped inmate is one thing. Prison guards are something totally different. Why? Because they have a lot more to lose. They probably don't have prior convictions. They're new to the system even though they work in the system. They're new to being interrogated. And my experience is that people who are not familiar with the system want to get out of it as much as they can, and they're going to be more willing to cooperate.

These people have families. They have jobs. They used to have careers. They have more to lose. So it is my guess that when faced with the prospect of incarceration, they have and will and will continue to cooperate with authorities and give them all the information, even if that means naming their buddies who also work at the facility if there are any additional people who should be scrutinized.

COSTELLO: Danny Cevallos, thanks for your insight. I appreciate it.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, could same-sex marriage trip up the Republicans' push for the White House or will the landmark Supreme Court decision actually help the GOP in 2016? We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:36:38] COSTELLO: All right. The U.S. Supreme Court has some key issues remaining on the docket and it's decided one important case. It's come out with this new ruling on Arizona and redistricting.

Pamela Brown is at the U.S. Supreme Court to tell us about it. What did they rule?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well we're just learning that the high court ruled that an independent voter created commission is upheld. Essentially, these commissions -- it was created in Arizona to draw congressional districts intended to curb partisan gerrymandering. The high court held today that these commissions are OK essentially. The Arizona legislature had argued that the commissions take away its power to be a part of the congressional redistricting, this gerrymandering. Under the constitution it said it's allowed these powers, these commissions can flip (ph) with that. A number of states have actually created these independent voter created commissions as a result.

And today the high court siding with them and essentially what this does is give the citizens a greater role in the process of drawing congressional districts. Here is what Justice Ginsburg said in this 5-4 majority opinion with Kennedy joining the liberals. She said "Partisan gerrymanders this court has recognized are incompatible with democratic principles." She goes on to say "The people of Arizona turned to the initiative to curb the practice of gerrymandering and thereby to ensure that members of congress would have a habitual recollection of their dependence on the people."

So Carol -- this is a big case, big ruling that has major political implications here, and this also comes on the heels of another big opinion received today -- we received today on lethal injection. The court upholding the use of a controversial drug in lethal injection -- Carol. And we just found out, by the way, that another ruling has come

in about the EPA and we're reading through that and hopefully we'll come back to you soon with the results of that opinion.

COSTELLO: I know. You're having a busy morning, Pamela Brown. We appreciate it though. Thanks so much

For the 13 Republicans who have thrown their hat into the presidential ring the Supreme Court's ruling on same-sex marriage is provoking a range of reactions. And while none of the candidates have applauded the decision there is a difference of opinion on how the party should move forward.

CNN's senior White House correspondent, Jim Acosta joins me now with more. Good morning -- Jim.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning -- Carol.

Unlike the President and his fellow Democrats who are really on the same page on this issue, Republicans are far from united in their response to the Supreme Court's decision to legalize same-sex marriage. While some GOP presidential candidates say it's time to respect the ruling, others say it's time to start throwing up some road blocks, and that is something a few states are beginning to do.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA: Days after the Supreme Court's landmark decision protecting same-sex marriage, many Republican presidential candidates are nowhere near the path to acceptance.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It is fundamentally illegitimate. It is wrong. It is not law and it is not the constitution.

ACOSTA: Some states opposed to the ruling are beginning to fight back. In Texas the attorney general has said county clerks can reject same-sex marriage license requests citing religious objections. While in Mississippi and Louisiana, officials are dragging their feet saying they'll await a separate appeals court ruling on the issue.

[10:39:56] GOV. BOBBY JINDAL (R-LA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think it is wrong for the federal government to force Christian individuals, businesses, pastors, churches to participate in wedding ceremonies that violate our sincerely-held religious beliefs.

ACOSTA: Conservative culture warriors in the GOP are framing the issue as a fight against the White House and its rainbow-colored tribute to the Supreme Court's decision.

MIKE HUCKABEE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If I become president, I just want to remind people that please don't complain if I were to put a nativity scene out during Christmas and say if it's my house I get to do with it what I wish.

ACOSTA: As more moderate voices in the party want to take a deep breath.

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R), OHIO: I believe in traditional marriage but the Supreme Court has ruled and it's the law of the land and we'll abide by it.

ACOSTA: GOP strategists fear a backlash against the high court will only help Hillary Clinton.

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am asking them please don't make the rights, the hopes of any American into a political football for this 2016 campaign.

ACOSTA: Advocates for same-sex marriage say they want to turn the court's attention to laws they say are still tilted against them.

CHAD GRIFFIN, HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN: When a majority of states in the country still today after this ruling you can be married at 10:00 a.m., fired from your job by noon, and evicted from your home by 2:00 simply for posting that wedding photo on Facebook. We still have a long ways to go.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA: And as for those states that are bucking the Supreme Court, all of this will put the White House and potentially the Justice Department in the position of playing referee to determine what exactly to do with these states that don't comply with the Supreme Court's ruling and that could be the biggest question the President faces all week long, but, Carol, the real test is inside the Republican Party. These GOP debates that are coming up in the coming months just got a whole lot more interesting -- Carol.

COSTELLO: You're right about that. Jim Acosta reporting live from the White House this morning.

So let's talk about what Jim was just talking about. I want to bring in Democratic strategist Chris Kofinis and former communications director for Republican congressman Dana Rohrabacher, Tara Setmayer. Welcome to both of you.

CHRIS KOVINIS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Thank you.

COSTELLO: All right. So Tara I will start with you. So there's a split among Republican candidates. Which way do you think they should go if they want to win the nomination?

TARA SETMAYER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, this is very fascinating but this is also what happens when you have this many candidates. You're not going to have monolithic opinion on something like this. You have a diversity of opinion, and many of them are legitimate and they're based on different legitimate and precedent reasonings behind these things.

Now whether it's politically viable or not, that will be determined through the campaign. That's why we have elections. That's why we have a primary process. That's why we have a nominating process.

COSTELLO: Wouldn't it be best just to say, you know, the Supreme Court has decided, we have to listen? It's the law of the land. Let's move on and talk about the economy and national security.

SETMAYER: I think that's probably what a lot of these candidates would like to do. You're seeing some of those candidates doing that already. Jeb Bush, Kasich, I think Marco Rubio said the same thing. But then there are other legitimate concerns that some other Republican candidates are bringing up about the poor legal reasoning behind this.

However you feel about the end result, I don't think most people are arguing about that, some are. But most people, most voters, 60 percent of voters feel like you know what -- gay marriage is something that we're accepting of now but the legal reasoning behind it is something that people should be concerned about and the protection of the right of conscience is something religious folks in this country need to be concerned about. And I think if the Republicans find a way to balance that, then we can have a productive discussion but I don't think they want it to be the wedge issue that it was like in 2004.

COSTELLO: Right. Right.

Well, let's talk about the issue of religious liberty, Chris, because that is a legitimate concern among some conservative Christians, right. Will I be forced to marry these two people even though I don't believe in same-sex marriage?

KOFINIS: Well, I mean if you look at the decision and especially the written decision by Kennedy, the idea that because you have, you know, certain religious beliefs allows you to discriminate against others is not something I think -- it's almost like you're talking about a reverse right. I'm going to take away your rights in order to protect mine. It's just not where the country is.

Part of I think the beauty of the constitution is an evolving document. It's not what Republican conservatives like to believe but that is the historical and the reality of the actual agreement. And so the notion that somehow we're going to go backwards after this incredible jump forwards, the Republicans are going to be in a terrible place in the primaries and in the debates arguing against this. The country has moved forward.

You know, to sit there and talk about how somehow we should go back in the past, it is not the way you run for president, especially in 2015-2016.

COSTELLO: And it is certainly something that Hillary Clinton could pounce on, right?

SETMAYER: Well, conveniently for her. I mean Hillary Clinton was very definitive about her position on same-sex marriage not that long ago where she said it's between a man and a woman. So was President Obama but they've conveniently evolved on this because it's politically expedient for them to do so. And I think that's dishonest.

[10:45:07] COSTELLO: Do you think that's the only reason?

SETMAYER: Possibly. I mean -- but that's up to them to have to define it. I know what they said and what they believed and what they used to get elected a couple years ago. And now because public opinion has shifted somewhat, so have they. Versus some of those in the Republican Party who actually have principles and are honest and steadfast and sincere about them.

As far as -- I don't think going -- focusing on the importance of religious liberty is stepping back. No, it is not. The freedom of exercise of religion is in the bill of rights. It's something that is -- that this country was built on --

(CROSSTALK)

KOFINIS: The exercise -- with all due respect. Wait a second. The exercise of religious freedom does not allow you to discriminate against others based on sexual orientation or race. These arguments --

SETMAYER: We're not talking about that.

KOFINIS: Wait a second. The arguments about religious freedom being used to protect your beliefs to discriminate against others were the same kind of arguments that were used during the civil rights movement, the same kind of arguments that were used again interracial marriage. So personally I find it kind of offensive that somehow allowing a gay couple to get married is going to infringe on my Christian beliefs. That is not the way it works.

SETMAYER: No, forcing someone to perform that is what infringes.

KOFINIS: Wait a second. Wait a second -- I let you speak.

SETMAYER: I find that as a Christian --

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: I think we should make this clear though. It is highly unlikely that in a church that a priest would be forced to conduct same-sex marriage ceremony.

SETMAYER: Well, that's open to interpretation.

COSTELLO: No, no.

KOFINIS: No, it's not.

SETMAYER: The way that Kennedy wrote his opinion -- yes, it is and that is the problem here. There are --

KOFINIS: That is not.

(CROSSTALK) KOFINIS: Listen if the Republicans -- with all due respect, if

the Republicans want to go out there and argue this strategy and argue this message, more power to you. You will lose more states than is possible other than the few four in the south.

COSTELLO: Ok. We're going to have to leave it there. Thank you so much for a spirited conversation, as always. I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:51:18] COSTELLO: In northern New York relieved residents line the streets to celebrate the end to one massive manhunt. Two escaped killers no longer on the loose.

This is not far from the Clinton Correctional Facility where the men escaped. Law enforcement personnel greeted with cheers and applause. For first time in more than three weeks residents no longer have to worry if a desperate fugitive is lurking nearby.

Joining me on the phone, a Dannemora business owner, Steve Lashway, he runs a meat market just across the street from the prison. Steve welcome back to the show.

STEVE LASHWAY, DANNEMORA BUSINESS OWNER (via telephone): How are you doing.

COSTELLO: I'm good. Did you sleep well last night?

LASHWAY: I did. It was awesome.

COSTELLO: What do you think of this sergeant who managed to take out David Sweat with two shots?

LASHWAY: Yes, it's great. I mean we are all very thankful and just relieved that this is over hopefully.

COSTELLO: How has your business been in light of all that's been happening?

LASHWAY: Well, the business has been -- we've been doing twice as much as we normally do and things have been calming down a little bit when the search moved to Malone, a little bit away from here, but it's still been crazy. We're enjoying it.

COSTELLO: Does this whole thing -- did this whole thing ever make you reconsider living and working near a prison?

LASHWAY: Oh, absolutely not. I mean my wife and I were talking about it last night. Now that it's over, you know, you can kind of reflect a little. And we just went back to the initial shock of just -- that this happened. We just can't believe that anybody was able to do it, and it's just been really hard on everybody. I mean it lasted 23 days, but I think it probably felt like 23 weeks to most people.

COSTELLO: Absolutely. I can't even imagine. Well, the prison is a huge employer in your community, and the

fallout has been less than flattering about the guards. What has been the reaction in your town given that many of these guards might be friends or neighbors?

LASHWAY: Sure. Well, you know, you always have to be careful when you let -- I mean there's over 900 people that work there, and you can't let one or two people, you know, make you believe -- everybody over there is great, honest, hard-working, and everybody in the community has just been amazingly supportive as demonstrated last night.

COSTELLO: Absolutely. Steve Lashway -- thank you so much for being with me again. I appreciate it.

All right. More news -- more breaking news from the U.S. Supreme Court. This time the case concerns the EPA, and well, I won't tell you more. Pamela Brown has it all after a break.

I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:58:16] COSTELLO: All right. Another ruling out of the U.S. Supreme Court so let's head there now to Washington and Pamela Brown to tell us more. This one involves the EPA. Good morning, Pamela.

BROWN: Good morning.

And the ruling today on the EPA is a setback for the Obama administration, Carol. The justices authored by Scalia in a 5-4 opinion said that the EPA unreasonably interpreted the Clean Air Act when it regulated emissions at power plants without taking into account the cost to industry. So basically saying that it was OK it regulated emissions but that it didn't take into account the cost to industry at the beginning like it should have.

In the dissent of this though, the justices -- the liberal justices said that this was micromanaging the EPA and that the EPA did take cost into account but just at a later stage. So this is a loss to the Obama administration, and this ruling comes after two other big opinions released today, especially the lethal infection opinion.

The justices with Alito writing the majority opinion upheld the constitutionality of a controversial drug used in lethal injection, midazolam. In an interesting turn of events, Justice Breyer read the dissent on the bench. He was one of four justices to read from the bench on this opinion which is highly unusual. And he brought up the question of whether the high court should take up the constitutionality of the death penalty in general.

So certainly a dramatic end to this term here at the Supreme Court -- Carol.

COSTELLO: And just quickly redistricting in Arizona, the court also upheld that an independent panel can handle redistricting and not just the state legislature, correct?

[10:59:58] BROWN: Yes. This is a big deal because it has major political implications. Basically saying that independent voter created commissions can be a part of the district congressional lines process, which is a big deal and allows citizens to be a bigger part of this process -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Got you. Pamela Brown reporting live. Thanks so much.

Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

"AT THIS HOUR" with Berman and Bolduan starts now.