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Mexico Pulls Out of Miss Universe Over Trump; New York Fugitives Made Breakout Practice Run; Tragic Ending for Glenn Ford, an Innocent Man Imprisoned; Katy Perry, Nuns, Archdiocese in Fight over L.A. Property. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired June 30, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00] CHELSEA COOLEY ALTMAN, MISS USA 2005: And it's very unfortunate that Mexico is pulling out of the Miss Universe pageant. When I competed, Miss Mexico was one of my absolute best friends there. And the Mexicans have it as a way of life for them, so it's unfortunate that they've decided to pull their contestant in the Miss Universe.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Going back on what you said, and I've read pretty thoroughly on what Donald Trump has said, and he was specific when he referenced Mexicans and calling them rapists. I can't climb into his head and find out how he truly feels in his head and heart. You've been around when the cameras are not rolling. Do you think he's a solid candidate for president?

COOLEY ALTMAN: I think Donald Trump is for America and for the American people. I think he is -- had his sights set on making America great again and, in doing so, protecting our country at the borders is a big part of that. I don't think we can limit that and specify one group of people or culture. Anyone who creates evil, regardless of their cultural background, is someone that we need to be aware of. As stated earlier on your program, we have a lot of threats coming to America in this next week that we have to be very careful of and that's something in general that he's standing behind because he cares about America and cares about the American people. He cares about all of the people and voters who want to come here and live the American dream.

BALDWIN: Chelsea Cooley Altman, thank you for coming on.

COLLEY ALTMAN: Thank you. Appreciate it.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, back to breaking news this afternoon, this bombshell involving captured prison escapee, David Sweat, revealing he and Richard Matt pulled off a practice run in that prison the night before their escape. What else we are learning, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:35:44] BALDWIN: Just past the bottom of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

We're back with the fallout as the captured fugitive, David Sweat, continues to talk from his hospital room. The braking news is Sweat and Richard Matt were not able to just escape, they actually had the freedom to practice the escape. They pulled off a dry run the night before. The ripple effects of Sweat's confession are now being felt back at the prison from which he came, with the suspension now of 12 people from the Clinton Correctional Facility, including top brass.

Let's begin with Deborah Feyerick, who has been all over this from the get.

But first, this dry run, the night before, apparently, when the guards were sleeping. Fill me in.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It makes perfect sense. You have to think about it, these two individuals planned it so it would happen when the cells -- the final cell check had been accomplished before the following one earlier in the hours.

BALDWIN: OK.

FEYERICK: For them to do a dry run, everything had to be in place. How did that little note, that yellow note of, "Have a good day," how did it get there? Clearly this was very well planned out. They wanted to make sure they hadn't -- that nothing had gone, you know, unthought-of of. These were two very clever individuals. They planned everything. Even --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Until they got out.

FEYERICK: Until they got out. Exactly. But even then they were able to elude authorities. And, think about it, they came up with a plan B based on information they had gathered simply by talking to prison guards about these hunting cabins, about being properly dressed, and everything that they were wearing, it appears it was taken from hunting cabins they were able to break into.

We have a new picture of David Sweat. It's a little bit graphic because he's been taking down by police. David Sweat is wearing camouflage gear, a rain jacket, what looked like waterproof pants, a backpack filled with things and what appears to be some sort of a flask. So these guys were ready to live in the woods, if it came to that, and that's exactly what they were doing. David Sweat, also, he was dressed in full camouflage and that's one of the reasons the dogs were at a disadvantage picking up the scent because they were wearing other people's clothing.

BALDWIN: Ah-ha. We have that though that they were talking to guards about the cabin and the woods?

FEYERICK: And Gene Palmer, apparently, according to someone I spoke with who knew Gene Palmer, said that Gene Palmer would bring in photographs of his camping trips.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Even though Sweat says he had nothing to do with it? FEYERICK: What's the harm? These guys are in a maximum security

facility. Really? You're going to show someone a camping trip photograph? The boundaries are very clear in terms of how much interaction prison correctional guards are allowed to have with inmates. And there were repeated violations. After numerous phone conversations, there's a real co-dependency in the prison system. You know, correction officers need information to prevent the two things that terrify them. One is riots and the other is escapes. Unfortunately, the person providing intelligence, one of them at least was Richard Matt. He was known to be somebody who gave Gene Palmer really good and reliable information. Again, it's this co-dependency.

At the end of the day, we'll see how this all shakes out. It's about following the rules. And that even means when it comes to bringing in drugs and contraband.

BALDWIN: There is so much more of this. We'll continue to peel it back.

Deborah, thank you very much. Deborah Feyerick.

As the details of this escape and the 23-day manhunt for these convicted killers now takes place in U.S. infamy, CNN takes a look back at the manhunts that have, in the past, captivated the nation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED CNN REPORTER: James Earl Ray, police found his fingerprints on a rifle and a scoop after Dr. Martin Luther King Jr was shot to death in Memphis, Tennessee. Ray fled to Canada and he got a Canadian passport and bounced from city to city. After two months, it was all over. He got arrested at London's Heathrow Airport.

Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber. For 18 years, he sent explosives in the mail, killing three people. In 1995, he said it would all stop if major media outlets published his Unabomber manifesto. But that's what got him caught. His brother read it, got suspicious, and soon, the longest search for a serial killer in U.S. history was over.

[14:40:03] Eric Rudolph became known as the Olympic bomber during the Atlanta Olympic games in 1996. The search for him last years. It came down to a rookie cop in North Carolina to finally catch him in 2003.

Renegade former Los Angeles police officer, Christopher Dorner, went on a rampage killing four people and wounded three others in a vendetta against his old comrades. The hunt for him ended in his death following a standoff, shootout and fire at a cabin of the mountains east of Los Angles.

Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, the convicted killer in the Boston Marathon bombing. He and his brother went under the radar for days but police were on their trail after a shooting on the MIT campus followed by a car chase and shootout in a nearby suburb that left his older brother, Tamerlan Tsarnaev, dead. Authorities closed in on Tsarnaev after a homeowner found him hiding in a boat in a backyard. A federal jury sentenced him to death.

Eric Matthew Frein, following the shooting of two police officers outside a Pennsylvania State police barracks, Frein was authority's number-one suspect and put on the FBI's 10-most wanted fugitive list. After seven weeks on the run, he was tracked down by a U.S. Marshall Service operations team in an abandoned airport.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Next, he spent nearly 30 years on death row for a crime he did not commit. Just last year he was exonerated. He was set free. Now, after life on the outside, a tragic ending to this man's story after an emotional meeting with the man who put him behind the bars in the first place. Do not miss this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:45:46] BALDWIN: Now to just a tragic ending to a tragic story. Let me show you a picture. Glenn Ford, here, spent nearly 30 years on death row for a crime he didn't commit. According to the Innocence Project in New Orleans, Ford spent 29 years, three months and five days of his life on death row in solitary confinement. An innocent man spending years behind bars wondering if this will be the week he dies.

Last year, Ford was exonerated. He had been the longest-serving death row inmate in the U.S. at the time of his release. And yesterday, Glenn Ford died. He only tasted freedom for a few months after losing his entire adult life.

The prosecutor who helped put Ford behind bars would come to regret his role in Ford's wrongful conviction. He has since apologized to Ford both in an open letter and then during an emotional meeting in person.

"ABC News" captured that encounter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTY STROUD, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Mr. Ford?

GLENN FORD, INNOCENT MAN IMPRISONED ON DEATH ROW: Hi. How are you?

STROUD: How are you, sir?

FORD: I'm doing all right.

STROUD: I thought about this for a long, long time. I want you to know that I am very sorry and I wish -- it is a stain on me that will be with me until I go to my grave. And I wasn't a very good person at all and so I apologize for that.

FORD: All right. But that still cost me 31 years of my life and nothing at the end but death because they give me from six to eight months to live.

STROUD: There's nothing to say sufficient to give you those 30 years back.

FORD: It happened. It happened. And I'm sorry I can't forgive you. I really am. I really am.

STROUD: I understand that.

FORD: OK.

STROUD: I do. And I wish you well and I don't wish you nothing but the best.

FORD: All right. Thank you.

STROUD: Thank you. And may God bless you.

FORD: You, too.

STROUD: You take care of yourself, OK?

FORD: All right. You, too.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Glenn Ford was 65 years young when he died of lung cancer. The prosecutor, the man who wrongfully convicted him, is now calling for the abolishment of the death penalty.

I want to talk more about Glenn Ford's story with his attorney, William Most.

William, welcome.

WILLIAM MOST, ATTORNEY FOR GLENN FORD: Thank you.

BALDWIN: I woke up, I read this first thing this morning, and I felt such grief for him and his family and was horrified just by this entire story. But I have to wonder, in the few months he had tasting freedom as an adult, what did he do? What did he see?

MOST: Glenn was an inspirational person. And even after so many unjustices had been heaped upon him, he focused on the future. With the 15 months of freedom he had, he was able to go to California and see his children and his many grandchildren, which brought him a lot of joy. He was able to spend time with friends and loved ones in New Orleans and go out and enjoy the festivals and music and everything New Orleans has to offer. There was a lot of sadness but a lot of joy as well.

BALDWIN: Jazz-fest, Mardi Gras here, in his final years, is what I read. You talk about focusing on the positive, and I was just reading all of these articles and quotes from people trying to get some of his time before he passed away, and he talked about how he was overwhelmed from the love from strangers. He said, "I need it the way I need a heartbeat to live. I take it as a blessing this outpouring of love in the middle of all of this madness."

He says "madness," William. I would be furious to my dying day. Was he angry?

MOST: If he was, he didn't express it. On the outside, he was someone who cared about the people around him and about moving forward and less -- more so than he focused on anger. He was, however, an advocate for justice and wanted justice to be done. Most importantly, he wanted to make sure that was done to him is not done to anyone else in the future. And so that was a thing he thought about and talked about a lot.

[14:50:03] BALDWIN: Final question, we just referenced the man who wrongfully convicted him, now opposes the death penalty. When the two of them met -- I watched the entire piece -- Glenn Ford essentially said sorry, but I can't forgive you. Did he share anything more about that meeting or any more of his feelings in the final days?

MOST: He was private about his thoughts but I think, you know, Mr. Stroud apologized but I think Glenn wanted justice in this country and that means a system of accountability for innocent people being sent to jail or to death row. As far as I know, even though Glenn was -- they tried to put Glenn to death, no one has lost their job, no one has had to pay any money, and no one has lost their law license as a result of putting a man on death row who had no place being there.

BALDWIN: It doesn't seem right, does it?

MOST: No.

BALDWIN: William Most, thank you.

MOST: Thank you.

BALDWIN: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:55:11] BALDWIN: This is quite the story. Let me line this up for you. There was a fight going on in Los Angeles between the archbishop of the diocese in Los Angeles and a group of nuns. And this woman is a big reason why there is a battle abrewing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(GROWLING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: OK. Not this guy, not this guy. Wait for it. Katy Perry, she wants to buy this gorgeous property. It's a former convent. Apparently, it's an amazing space in Los Angeles. The archbishop wants to sell it to her but the nuns say no. They've already sold the property to someone else.

Let's talk about the legalese with this with our favorite defense attorney, Randy Zelin.

The nuns say they have sold it to this restaurateur in L.A. The archdiocese wants to give it to Katy Perry. Who has the power to sell?

RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY & CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Now it's a matter of let's go to the paperwork. The unique thing about real estate, the law requires real estate transactions to be in writing. Why? Imagine if you didn't have that requirement and someone could just say, hey, that's my house, get out, because I say so. So the first thing that will happen in this case is that everyone is going to go to the documents. There is going to be a piece of paper called the deed. The deed tells us who owns the house. He or she with the deed has a right to convey the property. Anyone buying that property is going to have what is called title insurance. An insurance policy to make sure no one can come knocking on my door, hey, this is my house, get out. There's going to be a whole due diligence, paperwork, literally chaining out the title. There will be paperwork which will say who, from the church, from the archdiocese, has the power to bind the archdiocese to make the deal. This case is going to be resolved on the deed.

BALDWIN: If it turns out the archdiocese has the power to sell it to Katy Perry, do the nuns have any right, any say in any of this?

ZELIN: Great question. There is something in the law where we can have an argument, and I can say to you, you know what, I have an interest in this house, I have been living here, taking care of it, I have been paying for it. I may not have every piece of paper that I need, but my word, I've been here, I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't have an ownership interest. That's where the judge comes in to do a quiet the title and it's an action to quiet the title where a judge has to figure out, OK, who really owns this? Again, at the end of the day, I think they are going to go to the paperwork. There's been a lot of due diligence here. The property was purchased by two different people who are all going to have their paperwork and the paperwork -- documents don't lie. People do.

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: Let me read what the archdiocese has said, a statement. "The archdiocese continues to work with the Sisters to make sure that the sale of the property is in their best interest. We want to make sure no one takes advantage of the Sisters."

We have reached out to Katy Perry and have yet to hear back. If you were advising Katy Perry in this whole thing, what would you say to her?

ZELIN: You want the house? I'm going to get you the house.

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: Is that your best "Godfather"?

ZELIN: Yes.

BALDWIN: Randy Zelin, thank you. Appreciate it.

ZELIN: Thank you. ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: All right. Here we go. Top of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

We now know two prisoners felt so comfortable roaming around that Upstate New York prison that they pulled off a dry run before the night that they tunneled out for good. This incredible revelation coming to us straight from David Sweat, who, right now, is spilling to police about his escape plan, who helped him along the way. At the same time, we now know 12 people have been suspended at the Clinton Correctional Facility, including some top brass. Prison superintendent there, seen here in this video. This is a guy in the green shirt with New York Governor Andrew Cuomo at the prison on June 6th on the day Richard Matt and David Sweat escaped.

So, first, let's go to Jean Casarez, who is live outside the prison in Dannemora, New York.

Tell me more about this dry run, how they pulled that off.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: David Sweat is saying the night before they did escape, they had a rehearsal. And that rehearsal allowed them to make sure they were going to get everything right.