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Sweat Talks Escape; Historic Black Church Set On Fire; Macy's Dumps Trump. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired July 01, 2015 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:06] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Here we go. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me.
My goodness, every day, new details. Today, some pretty incredible new information about this prison escape in upstate New York. Captured killer David Sweat, still in the hospital, still singing like a canary saying he was the one who masterminded this whole thing starting back in January.
But it seems the escape may not have been as well planned out as many suspected. Sweat telling police they only used hacksaws, not power tools, and they were able to actually knock down this wall using a sledgehammer he says they just happened to find in an underground passageway. We are also now learning more about that -- that escape dry run the evening before the actual escape.
The inmates not just making it to freedom once, but twice, it turns out. The night before prison tailor Joyce Mitchell was supposed to meet them outside that prison, Sweat and Matt escaped from their cells, navigating through the twists of these tunnels and pipes before popping out of this manhole. But they apparently saw too many houses and decided to try for another manhole exit the next night.
To our justice correspondent Evan Perez, who's helping break all this new information.
I mean, you know, finally also opening up, Evan, about this relationship with this woman, you know, who was supposed to be the getaway driver. What has he said about Joyce Mitchell?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, this is going to make a heck of a move script.
BALDWIN: Right.
PEREZ: But David -- David Sweat is claiming that really this escape wasn't that complicated after all. He's told investigators that he and Richard Matt found a sledge hammer to break a brick wall that helped make their getaway under the prison, and he said that a construction worker inadvertently left the sledgehammer, you know. He says there were no power tools that were used.
Sweat also says that the idea to kill the husband of Joyce Mitchell, as the prison employee who's charged with helping them, that idea came from Mitchell, according to him. And according to Sweat also, Mitchell and Matt were having a sexual relationship and Sweat says that he wasn't involved at all. Mitchell has said the opposite, by the way. She says that it was Sweat and Matt's idea to kill her husband.
Sweat is also telling investigators that he and Matt initially got along but eventually he got frustrated because Matt was physically out of shape and couldn't keep up with him. He said he --
BALDWIN: And that he was boozing, right? He was frustrating because he was drinking in the cabin.
PEREZ: Right. He was also angry that Matt was getting drunk on alcohol that they had found in a cabin. So all of this coming out in interviews that he has done with law enforcement up there.
BALDWIN: Unreal. Great job getting all this sourcing and this -- this news. Evan Perez, thank you so much.
PEREZ: Thanks.
BALDWIN: I want to talk more about -- about this and, you know, listen, how do you get David Sweat to talk the way he is? Let me bring in Gregg McCrary, former profiler with the FBI, 25 years in the FBI.
Gregg, thank you so much for coming on.
GREGG MCCRARY, FORMER FBI INTERROGATOR: You're welcome.
BALDWIN: My goodness, I mean, you know, when you're hearing all these details about David Sweat saying there happened to be this sledgehammer, you know, in this underground passageway. I mean maybe I'm a cynical journalist. I just thought, my goodness, that's convenient. I mean I'm not quite sure how you, as a profiler, as you who's sat in front of all these different inmates and criminals, how you believe them and how you get them to talk.
MCCRARY: Well, there are two issues here. One, you don't just arbitrarily believe or disbelieve what they say. They certainly will lie or manipulate to a degree. That's -- that's a given. You try to get verifiable facts of things that you can -- you can certainly latch on to, to either prove or disprove what they're going to. There's always going to be some ambiguous information that you're never probably going to be able to pin down entirely.
But the key is to establish a rapport. And there's a couple of ways. These guys are very psychopathic, meaning they're very manipulative and so forth. But that also means that they're interested in themselves and themselves only. So, first of all, convince him to -- that talking about this is going to be in his best interest. Everything --
BALDWIN: Why? Why? Why? Why?
MCCRARY: Why? Because what's in it for him? Because if he -- it's bad to be a rat in prison. If you're an informant in prison and you're talking, that's not a good thing. So that's a hurdle you have to overcome. So you have to convince him that it's going to be in his best interest. Right now he's looking at a tremendous amount of problems, legal issues and all this. So anything that he can do to help himself, he's probably willing to do.
The other aspect is to tap into this sort of malignant narcissism that these guys always have. In other words, they think they're smarter than everybody else. And if you can play into that, but be careful to do it so it isn't real transparent what you're doing, but to allow them to do a little preening and tell you how smart they were and how they -- how they manipulated these people and got all these things in place, so that sort of approach can -- you know, is probably the best way and probably what's going on.
[14:05:04] BALDWIN: You know, you say narcissist, that's exactly what I thought --
MCCRARY: Yes.
BALDWIN: Because when you hear David Sweat talking and he's saying, oh, I was the mastermind and I ditched Matt because he wasn't in shape and --
MCCRARY: Exactly.
BALDWIN: He was bringing me down and he was drunk, if I'm thinking -- I'm going to be put -- you know, I'm going to live the rest of my life behind bars and if I could like minimize my sentence in being, you know, in the hole for however long, I would be saying, oh, no, I just followed along. Why is he saying he was the boss?
MCCRARY: Because they can't overcome the narcissism. They just have to do this. They have to just show you how smart they are. And in reality, we're seeing this isn't really all that great a plan. I mean what in the world were they thinking? Even if she had gotten the car, I mean, how -- how long is that going to last, even if she'd picked them up? I mean they'd be missing. She'd be missing. The car would be missing. They'd never make it to Mexico. I mean they'd be intercepted in -- on the off chance they did, what in the world are they going to do when they get there. so this wasn't, you know, a well thought out plan. It was good as far as it went, but, you know, it just blew up the minute they -- they, you know, they got out of the prison.
BALDWIN: Gregg, back to -- back to your, as a negotiator, your -- your -- we'll call it a BS meter.
MCCRARY: OK.
BALDWIN: When you're listening to somebody, when you're -- when you're feeding into that narcissism, you're making them feel good --
MCCRARY: Right.
BALDWIN: You're getting them to talk and they're spilling the beans --
MCCRARY: Right.
BALDWIN: What are you looking at? I imagine there are non-verbal cues for you to know truth and BS.
MCCRARY: Yes, you have to be a little bit careful with over- interpreting non-verbal cues. But what you're trying to do is commit him to a story, commit him to a situation and then you can go out and it's sort of what you just reported on. You're going to get conflicting statements. He says it was her idea to kill her husband and she's saying oh, no, no, no, it was their idea. This may be something you can never reduce totally, or never be able to resolve totally, but to get as much of those details, as much of that as you can, and to get verifiable information. I mean was there -- did people leave a sledge hammer in a work zone that they could get to? I mean that's something you probably can verify. So you get them to commit themselves to as much as they can and then try to get as much verifiable information as you can so you can begin to filter out the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.
BALDWIN: Gregg McCrary, this has been fascinating. Thank you so much.
MCCRARY: You're very welcome.
BALDWIN: Coming up here, we have some breaking developments in another fire at an African-American church in the south. Hear what is behind this and the threatening letters reportedly sent to multiple churches in this area. We're on this today.
Also, Donald Trump's brand in trouble here? Add Macy's to the list here. Macy's now dropping him after NBC did the same. We'll speak live with a Mexican-American Miss USA contestant currently competing in his pageant down in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
Also ahead, more breaking news. Another shark attack also in North Carolina. This one pulling this man under water. We'll speak live with a witness.
Don't move. I'm Brooke Baldwin and this is CNN.
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[14:12:14] BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.
An African-American church, the KKK burned two decades ago, is now back in ashes. But it appears this time the fire at Mt. Zion AME Church in Greeleyville, South Carolina, was an act of Mother Nature and not one of hate. Senior FBI officials say they suspect lightning in the area ignited those flames and our CNN Weather Team spotted four lightning strikes in this area where this church, where Mt. Zion is located. It is about an hour and a half drive from the racist massacre of nine black church members in Charleston two weeks ago.
I have our colleague, Brian Todd, outside that church in Greeleyville.
Tell me -- tell me what exactly investigators are telling you.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, investigators telling us -- federal investigators say they suspect that lightning strikes may have caused the fire here at the Mt. Zion AME Church. The structure pretty much burned out except for the brick foundation of it. But still given the fact that this church burned down 20 years ago at hands of the KKK and given what happened in Charleston just a couple of weeks ago, the mayor of Greeleyville had some things to say indicating just how upset the incident has made them. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSE PARKER, MAYOR OF GREELEYVILLE, SOUTH CAROLINA: When we went out to the scene last night, we were saddened but our -- by what we saw out there. I can remember some 19 to 20 years ago being on that same sight when then President Bill Clinton came down and helped to dedicate that church from one that was burned a couple years earlier. And to arrive up there last night and just to see the church in flames again, it just -- it gives you an ill feeling.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: All right, Brian Todd, thank you so much.
Now to Mt. Zion AME. This is the sixth black church to go up in flames since the mass killing at Emanuel AME Church in Charleston. At last word, none of these fires has been determined to be a hate crime. You can see on the map where all these different fires have occurred in the deep south.
But listen, there is no question of the hate that gunman Dylann Roof spewed for African-Americans in his writings. And while Roof's act of violence is rare, my next guest says the motivation behind it is not, and he knows firsthand. Tim Parrish writes in "The New York Daily News," quote, "I grew up a southern racist. I learned how to hate at home and at church. I drank from the same poisonous well as Dylann Roof." And Tim Parrish, author of "Fear and What Follows: The Violent Education of a Christian Racist," joins me now here in New York.
So, Tim, thank you so much.
Listen, I read much of what you wrote this morning, and you were incredibly candid and you talk about how through the years you're pushing through your feelings.
[14:15:06] TIM PARRISH, WRITER, "HOW I ESCAPED BECOMING DYLANN ROOF": Right.
BALDWIN: But, I mean, your -- take me back. You grew up in the deep south in Louisiana in the '60s and '70s.
PARRISH: Right.
BALDWIN: As far as, you know, color lines were at the time, tell me about the community.
PARRISH: Right. Well, thanks so much for having me. I wish it were for different reasons.
BALDWIN: Yes.
PARRISH: But it's great to be here. It's a conversation we need to continue.
BALDWIN: We should have.
PARRISH: Yes.
Well, I was -- I grew up in a very segregated society. I remember black and white restrooms and water fountains. My family were really good, hard working, working class people and Christians, except for this gigantic flaw that our church voted not to have African-Americans in, and, you know, there was a lot of vitriol towards African- Americans. And I didn't have an African-American kid in my class until seventh grade, so I lived in a world where African-Americans weren't individuals.
BALDWIN: You lived in a world of white.
PARRISH: That's right. That's exactly right.
BALDWIN: How often growing up as a young person, as a teen, would you use the "n" word?
PARRISH: All the time. It's the -- it's the word we used. And I -- I wasn't even aware of it being a racial epithet or anything being a racial epithet until I was four years old and my mother and I were at a department store and there was a black kid behind me and I said, I'm going to use this word on TV, but I said, look, mom, there's a little jigaboo. And she, you know, kind of snatched me up, took me outside and said, look, outside we don't' say words like that. Outside we say negro, which was the acceptable word at that point.
BALDWIN: Wow.
PARRISH: And at that moment I realized there was something going on in our house that was shameful. And so really, from her reaction, and, again, my mother was a wonderful person --
BALDWIN: But she is says outside --
PARRISH: That's right.
BALDWIN: Meaning, when I -- when I hear you say that, that means it's OK to say it inside, inside the house.
PARRISH: Exactly. Exactly.
BALDWIN: This is how you were raised.
PARRISH: That's right.
BALDWIN: You talk about in this piece I read also in "The Daily Beast," you talk about how you escaped becoming Dylann Roof, the 23- year-old --
PARRISH: Yes.
BALDWIN: Who murdered those nine people in that Charleston church. And you talk about your thoughts of burning, of torching a home --
PARRISH: Yes.
BALDWIN: Of African-Americans.
PARRISH: Right.
BALDWIN: You went that far in your head.
PARRISH: I did.
BALDWIN: Tell me about that.
PARRISH: Well, you know, it began -- the indoctrination, and that's what I'm talking about a lot is how we, in white society, are indoctrinated. We still are indoctrinated. Our indoctrination lies deep in us. For me, obviously, it started when I was very young. Then when I was about 13, I got in a really bad street fight. I happened to be with white kids. But I got very scared and then fell under the sway of this charismatic, brutal kind of super human racist on my street and I thought that would keep me safe. But I also thought being a racist would make me more acceptable to my father, to everybody around me.
BALDWIN: You'd fit in?
PARRISH: That's exactly right, which I think is the motive behind a lot of young men who are doing these kinds of atrocious things. And we were natural -- our neighborhood was natural desegregating, so there was fear of the black invaders. And I'll -- you know, I feared for my parents. I could see they were afraid.
BALDWIN: The black invaders, my goodness.
PARRISH: Yes.
BALDWIN: But you didn't. You didn't do this to a home.
PARRISH: Right.
BALDWIN: You didn't torch the home.
PARRISH: Right.
BALDWIN: And help me understand, when you were so indoctrinated in this culture and in this family with these friends, how did you start switching? How did you turn that race -- the racist switch, start trying to turn it off?
PARRISH: Well, I knew the whole time what I was doing was wrong.
BALDWIN: You did?
PARRISH: Yes, because I was raised in a Christian church and I was locked in on Jesus and it was always perplexing to me why in the church itself there was a different message from what I heard Jesus saying. So, luckily, you know, like Lincoln -- there was always this better angel inside of me. And when our -- the reason for our desire to burn the house was a friend of ours was stabbed and almost killed in a fight started by my racist mentor.
And then he -- the racist mentor really was losing his mind and needed me for support. And I had sort of split off from him. But, you know, again, I convinced myself we were somehow protecting our neighborhood out of a sense of honor, which was insane. But when we came up to it I said -- I was like, this is just murder. I know better. I'm not going to do it.
BALDWIN: But that's the difference between you -- I'm looking at you and I'm seeing this face flash out of my periphery.
PARRISH: Yes.
BALDWIN: You know, the difference is, obviously, you stopped.
PARRISH: Right.
BALDWIN: You had that -- that sense inside of you.
PARRISH: Yes.
BALDWIN: And there is still so much. First of all, the -- I applaud you for being able to come on national television and say, yes, I have had racist thoughts for years and years and how, you know, you've been battling these poisonous thoughts and have been trying to turn your heart and your head around.
PARRISH: Right.
BALDWIN: But, you know, there are way too many of Dylann Roofs out there.
PARRISH: Yes.
BALDWIN: And so how will we ever, as a society, someone who has lived how you've lived, ever stop being like this?
PARRISH: Yes. Well, I want to say, my main point is, you know, people who are caught in situations like Dylann Roof aren't really my audience. My audience -- I hope that I can reach them, but I've been attacked by people much more mainstream than Dylann Roof since my article came out and since my book came out.
[14:20:11] And what bothers me the most is there's really a mainstream racist indoctrination among us. I am a good example of it. I still, at times, and I say this in my article, you know, at times the "n" word pops in my head on really bad days.
BALDWIN: Still, current day?
PARRISH: Of course because it's always in me and I've just gotten past the point of being ashamed of it and saying, that's what I've got. Now I've got to back it off, look logically, see human faces. It's not hard -- I mean it's not easy work, but it's essential work, and we, as white people, need to do it.
BALDWIN: Tim Parrish, author of "Fears and What Follows: The Violence Education of a Christian Racist." Thank you for your candor. I appreciate it.
PARRISH: Thanks for having me.
BALDWIN: Coming up, new fallout today with Donald Trump after his controversial comments about Mexicans. Now a major retailer, Macy's, also ending its relationship with the billionaire. This in the same week that NBC canceled plans to broadcast both the Miss USA and Miss Universe contests. We'll talk to a current contestant in the Miss USA Pageant and get her perspective on how people there who are already getting ready for this down in Baton Rouge, how they're impacted by Trump's words.
Also breaking right now, word of another shark attack on the East Coast.
You're watching CNN. We'll be right back.
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[14:25:40] BALDWIN: The chips keep falling for Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump. First the Univision, Spanish language network, and NBC, now Macy's has dumped the real estate mogul. The retail giant says it's pulling Donald Trump brand merchandise from its stores because of his controversial remarks on Latinos and immigrants. Macy's came under intense pressures to cut ties with Trump after he called Mexicans killers and rapists. Those comments also forced Mexico to pull out of this Miss Universe Pageant which Trump co-owns. That's set to happen in a couple of weeks. The Univision network also cut ties, opting to drop coverage of Miss USA, another Trump-backed pageant. NBC also cancelled plans to broadcast both the Miss USA and Miss Universe contest.
So, let's go straight to the site of this contest. In Baton Rouge, Louisiana, I have Alexis Railsback. She's a Miss USA contestant representing Kansas. She is also a third generation Mexican-American.
Alexis, welcome.
ALEXIS RAILSBACK, MISS KANSAS: Thank you.
BALDWIN: So you're there in Baton Rouge. You're, you know, rocking the sash. You're ready to roll. You're prepping with your fellow contestants. What's the word among the ladies so far that this will not be broadcast on TV?
Did we lose her? Alexis, you got me?
RAILSBACK: Yes, I can -- can you hear me?
BALDWIN: We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.
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