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ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT
Richard Matt Killed After Aiming Shotgun at Agent; Military Cancels July 4th Event Amid Terror Fears; New York City Threatens To Dump Trump; Reelz Picks Up Dumped Trump Pageant. Aired 7-8:00p ET
Aired July 2, 2015 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:11] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: OUTFRONT next, convicted killer Richard Matt's last moments on the run, stunning new details about how Matt went down in a hail of bullets.
Plus, breaking news. The military cancelling Fourth of July events at a U.S. airbase. So, what do officials know about the threat of a terror attack this weekend?
And shark attacks on the rise. My guest tonight, a 12-year-old who survived a horrific attack. Let's go OUTFRONT.
Good evening, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan in for Erin Burnett. OUTFRONT tonight, new details tonight about convicted killer Richard Matt's final moments. Federal agents responding to a report about gunshots fired in the woods near the New York Canadian border choppered in to search for the convicts. According to government officials, one agent found Matt during the search, lying down behind a fallen tree armed with a shotgun. The agent ordered Matt to put up his hands, Matt refused and the confrontation, as we now know, turned deadly.
Also, prison worker Joyce Mitchell's husband is standing by his wife tonight, despite David Sweat's insistence that it was Joyce who wanted her husband dead. A lot of developments to get to.
Jason Carroll is OUTFRONT tonight in Dannemora, New York outside the prison. So, Jason, this is really the first time officials are giving a detailed account of Richard Matt's final moments. What more can you tell us?
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And it turns out those final moments could have been much, much worse for that border agent who, as you know, ended up firing and killing Richard Matt. But it could have been much worse for him. Because federal authorities are saying that when Richard Matt failed to obey orders, he raised and pointed that 20 gauge shotgun at that agent before that agent opened fire. So, you can see from federal agents now telling us that that situation could have been much, much worse. The 20 gauge shotgun, as you know, Richard Matt picked up when he was on the run along with the alcohol that he ended up drinking. If not for the quick thinking of that border patrol agent, things could have been much, much worse -- Kate.
BOLDUAN: Absolutely. David Sweat is also telling investigators that it was Joyce Mitchell's idea to kill her husband Lyle. Well, Lyle is now speaking out through his attorney. What is he saying about this?
CARROLL: Yes. You know, some of the people out here have been saying that these are the kind of details that one might hear in a lifetime movie. But absolutely, David Sweat telling authorities, telling investigators that it was not his idea, it was not Richard Matt's idea to kill Lyle Mitchell, Joyce Mitchell's husband, but that it was her idea. Through her attorney, she denied that. We're also this afternoon Kate, hearing from Lyle Mitchell's attorney who told us the following. Quote, "Lyle only knows what Joyce has told him. And that was that she didn't want Lyle hurt." As you know, Joyce Mitchell also telling investigators she could not go through with the plan, that it was not her idea and that she did not want her husband, and in fact, Lyle Mitchell's attorney telling CNN just within the past week or so that Lyle Mitchell still loves his wife Joyce -- Kate.
BOLDUAN: And a whole lot of folks wondering, oh, that poor man, how is he standing by his wife right now? Jason, thank you so much. A lot of details coming out tonight.
OUTFRONT for us, to dig through it, Jonathan Gilliam, he's a former navy SEAL and FBI special agent. Our legal analyst Paul Callan is here as well as Jeff Dumas, a former sergeant at the Clinton Correctional Facility, who was there for 22 years. Gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. This is a really amazing account that we're getting about what went down in those final moments with Richard Matt. So, when you look at this, he pointed -- he raised and pointed his 20 gauge shotgun. It does make you wonder, at what point Jonathan in tracking these guys down do the agents have the right to take him down, to open a fire?
JONATHAN GILLIAM, FORMER NAVY SEAL: Well, they had the right before they even went into the woods.
GILLIAM: And the fact is that these were escaped convicts. They are on the run. They then had intelligence that they were armed, at least they knew that Matt was armed. And so as they went into where they believed that he was, they did not have to necessarily identify themselves as law enforcement when they walk up upon him. He is a threat. And their right to eliminate the threat when it's imminent is already present.
BOLDUAN: So, you think they maybe -- when they even asked him to put his hands up, do you think they're being a little hesitant here?
GILLIAM: Well, they definitely went as far as they could, because you see what happens is if you identify yourself and the weapon comes up and you already see that he has a weapon, intelligence is showing you that -- is telling you that he has a weapon, you do not necessarily have to identify yourself being you react to eliminate that threat. If he's laying in wait, you walk upon him, he has a weapon, you do not have to wait.
BOLDUAN: Any scenario, if you were the agent in the field that you wouldn't have shot him?
GILLIAM: No, there's no scenario. I mean, because you don't -- that guy is a killer? He has proven that he will kill. And he has proven that he will kill law enforcement officers.
[19:05:08] BOLDUAN: So, Paul, also when you look at this though with his death, it seems investigators also lost a lot of information. What was lost with the death of Richard Matt?
PAUL CALLAN, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, you know, there are two ways of looking at this. On the one hand, you could say they achieved the ultimate penalty. He was given the death penalty in the case. Okay? You wouldn't have gotten better than that in court in terms of punishment. On the other hand, of course, assuming this was a justifiable shoot -- and they're not always justifiable. This guy is a killer, you can't kill him, you have -- there has to be a reasonable threat that you feel that you are in. Now, you're going to feel that when -- with a guy this dangerous. So, I think this was a justifiable suit. But they lost the ability to get a lot of intelligence. I mean, had he lived, he might have revealed more details about how the escaped was planned, whether there were other guards, corrections officers we should say at the facility who were involved. And that's, of course, all forfeited. Now, we only have Sweat left to tell his story.
CALLAN: So, they did forfeit some good intelligence.
BOLDUAN: Yes. Valuable information. And so, as Paul is saying, as we will know now, Jeff, we have one person's side of the story. And he sure is spilling it. But you worked at this prison. You see these inmates. You know how these inmates interact. You have David Sweat saying that he was the mastermind. But now we know that it was Richard Matt who had this gun. Who do you think in your gut was really behind kind of leading this escape?
JEFF DUMAS, FORMER SERGEANT, CLINTON CORRECTIONAL FACILITY: My gut feeling is they both had their own part in it. There probably wasn't a leader. They probably needed each other to feet up off, to make it all work. So, I don't think that there was a clear-cut leader. Both of them stayed out of trouble. Both of them used the liberties within the facility in order to facilitate this. You know, they have been around the block. They know what's going on.
BOLDUAN: Now, let's focus on this murder plot. I mean, this is sad and fascinating about -- we have Joyce Mitchell saying, it was the inmates. We've got David Sweat saying, it was absolutely the other way around. I mean, regardless, we have all had this question, Jonathan. If these guys wanted to get away, their goal was to get to freedom. Why would they spend the time -- waste time if you will carrying out a murder before they did?
GILLIAM: Well, you know, I was asking the same question. After talking to one of the guests that was on today who is a former inmate there, he brought up the fact that they were -- they escaped on Saturday. So, had they left with her and either she stayed with them or they killed her -- which I think is the possibility, they would have killed her. Her husband would have gone looking for her quickly. So, that would have sent the chase out even, you know, further into looking at Miss Mitchell. So, I think if we look at that scenario, it would have made sense for them to have her help them or at least get the vehicle and then either kill her or kill her and her husband both so that nobody can track them and, you know, they're gone.
BOLDUAN: Jeff, I hear you piping in. You know these -- you know the prison's protocols. I mean, after they realize that these guys were gone, how quickly would they have contacted the Mitchells?
DUMAS: Chances are, when they got out at 12:30 in the morning, if she would have picked them up, my feeling is that they would have went to her house, they would have killed the husband, they would have killed her and there would been two dead bodies laying there until sometime late on Monday morning. Because nobody would have looked for them all weekend long. Matt and Sweat would have been in a vehicle headed to Mexico, because Matt fled there prior to after he dismembered the body in Buffalo. They would have taken off there. The prison itself would have started looking for the two employees sometime on Monday after they had not shown up for work. So, we would have made phone calls, tried to get ahold of them. Nobody. Well then, we would send somebody to the house. And they lived a considerable distance away, maybe 45 minutes. We would have sent somebody out there to check on them. And that's probably when they would have been discovered, late on the Monday morning. So, they would have had a head start.
BOLDUAN: Yes. But what we're looking at now is that he said she said. Do you think we're ever going to find out who was the driving force behind this murder plot?
CALLAN: No, I don't think we are. We're trying to read tea leaves here.
CALLAN: And, you know, there's another scenario here where I think you could argue that it would have made no sense for them to go and kill the husband, because they were holding that out to her to get her cooperation. All right? Assuming that this was her idea. And if prison authorities found that the escape had occurred, I mean, at some point in time as negligent as they were, they were going to discover these guys were missing. They would have immediately started looking. And they would have found the two bodies and the hunt would have been on. So, I'm not so sure that killing both of them would have aided then abetted. But this is pure speculation. We have no way of knowing this.
BOLDUAN: But still, these details as they come out, they are just fascinating. How they pulled it off and now what we're hearing from David Sweat, from the hospital, that that's for sure. Jonathan, Paul, Jeff, thank you all so much.
OUTFRONT next, we have breaking news. The military cancels Fourth of July celebrations at a U.S. airbase over serious threats of a terror attack this holiday weekend. Will more holiday events be shut down?
[19:10:10] Plus, first NBC, then Macy's, now the city of New York looking to dump Trump. How long will Donald Trump stand his ground?
And ten shark attacks off the Carolinas in recent months. Will fear of attacks keep beachgoers home on this very big holiday weekend? Just look at that.
[19:14:04] BOLDUAN: Breaking news on the threat of terror attacks over the July 4th weekend. Tonight, officials are ramping up security. A U.S. military base just canceled a July 4th event out of concern for American troops there.
Jim Sciutto is OUTFRONT with much more on this. So, Jim, what is the military telling you about why this event was canceled?
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: They are saying it was a base decision, a decision by the commanders on the base that the risks outweighed the benefits in light of the threat situation now of holding these July 4th celebrations. But listen to the language that they used in the announcement just describing what's at stake here. The base commander is saying that they closed the base in a difficult decision like this when lives are on the line. That just lays out there in their view what was at stake. But this strikes me as interesting.
There are other bases in the UK where U.S. forces are based -- in Europe, they did not make the same decision to cancel their July 4th celebrations. So, it raises the possibility that the commanders there saw something specific to that base that made it in their view dangerous to hold this event. They are not saying that. But there's that possibility. And keep in mind as well, Kate, that the security situation in Europe arguably worse than the U.S., far more Jihadist there. A lot coming out of Syria and Iraq. They have a difficult security situation.
BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Lives on the line, that's pretty striking to have that be said in that statement. And you are talking about the security situation over there, more breaking news tonight. The Pentagon just announced that another senior ISIS leader was killed in an air strike. What more are you picking up on that?
SCIUTTO: Tariq Al-Harzi, he was a senior and an important leader in ISIS that's responsible for getting foreign fighters and weapons across the border into Iraq and Syria. Also known as the Emir of Suicide Bombers, the commander in effect by their suicide missions both by trucks and also by individuals. Very dangerous character. There was a $3 million U.S. bounty on his head. And just one more note, Kate. He was a Tunisian in charge of ISIS attacks overseas. And remember, just last Friday, you had that horrible attack in Tunisia where one gunman there killed more than 34 tourists, 30 of them British. So, this was a very important figure taken out by this coalition airstrikes.
BOLDUAN: Absolutely. And important news for sure. Jim, thank you very much. Jim Sciutto for us on that.
OUTFRONT tonight, republican Congressman Mike Turner, he sits on the House Intelligence and Armed Services Committees. Congressman, it's always great to see you. Thank you so much for coming in. A lot of to discuss, especially when you hear what Jim Sciutto was saying, that a U.S. military base cancelling its July 4th events over security fears and that sounds pretty scary. Especially when you hear the language that the commander had in his statement saying that lives were on the line and the risks outweighed the benefits. Are you picking up, can you tell us, was there a specific threat to this base?
REP. MIKE TURNER (R-OH), HOUSE SELECT INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Well, I can't speak to that but I can tell you this. I mean, this is not what you would want to see. But at the same time, you know, we're having to balance what are real and specific threats ISIS is using social media and is deploying terrorists for the purposes of attacking the west, including tempting attacks within the United States. And we have to be very vigilant. Even in my own community in May, Wright- Patterson Air Force Base, they canceled here a spring concert being very concerned at that time of what they believed was not just a general threat but a specific threat to the facility.
BOLDUAN: So, do you think this is just the beginning in terms of cancelling of events, especially around a key holiday like this?
TURNER: Well, the problem is that we don't really have a very good strategy right now for addressing ISIS. You know, we have the news reports of ISIS leadership that, you know, we're being successful in taking out. But still ISIS is using social media in a way in which they are trying to have attacks on our homeland in the United States and of course in Europe. And that is, you know, very concerning and certainly very dangerous.
BOLDUAN: So, our Deborah Feyerick, she is reporting also that law enforcement agencies here in the U.S., really around the country that they have been warned about the possibility of ISIS directed plots. And it's described by DHS as being complex and centrally planned. And now, of course, we know that you cannot reveal and we would never want you to the classified information that you are privy to. But from what you are hearing, are you confident right now that law enforcement can prevent that?
TURNER: Well, I think it's very difficult to prevent terrorist attacks.
TURNER: I think that what, you know, we need to do is take the fight obviously to the terrorists. But at the same time try to track down those who are organizing or perpetrating these types of actions. Certainly, you know, as you go into this Fourth of July, people need to be aware of their surroundings. They need to bring things to the attention of authorities if they see something that does not make sense or that is questionable. But, certainly, you know, we need to go on and enjoy the Fourth of July and celebrate our independence. And certainly look to the fact that, of course, you know, our battle for our freedoms continues. And that's part of what we are celebrating on July 4th. And we will certainly continue to battle these terrorists.
[19:19:10] BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Well, the chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, I know you know him well. Mike McCaul, I mean, he said to me we hope and pray that we get through this weekend without any attacks. You know, that does scare you though. You want more than hope and pray to be basing that all on. But I want to ask you about the ongoing threat that we are facing right now. Already this year, at least 49 alleged ISIS supporters in the U.S. have been charged. Nine of those in just in the last month. Do you expect -- should we expect to see more arrests like this before the holiday weekend is over?
TURNER: Well, I certainly hope so. I mean, because we're being diligent in trying to track down those or in touch with ISIS. As ISIS communicates to them through social media, we become aware of their existence, of some of their plans and some of their vulnerabilities. And that is certainly is where we try to bring justice to them.
BOLDUAN: So, I want to ask you the other breaking news that Jim Sciutto is bringing to us, the fact that we learn that this top ISIS leader, Tariq Al-Harzi that he was killed in coalition airstrikes. He was known as the Emir of Suicide Bombings. Tell us from your perspective Congressman how significant is this?
TURNER: Well, it is certainly significant that we're able to reach out and touch the leadership of ISIS. But as you know, they control a great portion of the territory of Syria and Iraq. They certainly are making inroads in Libya. They're getting the type of geographical space that we had tried to prevent in Afghanistan where they would be able to train and execute terrorists and maintain their terrorists' organization. So, this is a battle that's going to require more than just the leadership of ISIS. It's actually going to require us, you know, to retake the areas that have been lost and to ensure that it is not in the hands of these terrorists.
BOLDUAN: Final question, looking into the weekend, Congressman, you are a father of two daughters, what do you say to your family or family members that reach out to you, they want to go to a Fourth of July parade, what do you tell them? Should they go?
TURNER: We're going. Not only are we going, we're going to celebrate and we'll be very proud of America. But at the same time, we're going to keep our eyes open and we'll tell anybody if we see anything that looks suspicious or that needs to be checked out.
BOLDUAN: Congressman Mike Turner. Congressman, it's always great to have you. Thank you so much.
TURNER: Thank you.
BOLDUAN: Of course. OUTFRONT next, New York City's mayor calling Donald Trump's remarks about Mexican immigrants, quote, "disgusting and offensive." Will even Trump's hometown be cutting ties with him now?
Plus, she was arrested for taking down the confederate flag outside the South Carolina state capital, but did she help or hurt her cause by doing that? We're going to ask her.
[19:25:51] BOLDUAN: Tonight, more trouble for Trump. Now, New York City, Donald Trump's home base, is threatening to dump him over his controversial comments calling Mexican immigrants rapists. Trump's company runs a major golf course, and ice skating rink and other money making entities in the city. Already, NBC, Macy's, Serta, just look at the list. And Univision, they have all cut ties ending their business relationships with Trump. And now his fellow republican presidential candidates are piling on, too.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICK PERRY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't think Donald Trump's remarks reflect the Republican Party.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't agree with him. Pretty simple.
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The comments were inappropriate. They have no place in the race.
Boris Sanchez is OUTFRONT tonight for us tonight. Boris, a lot including Trump's bottom-line is at stake here. Huh?
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Kate. This will hurt him financially. Though he is doing well in the polls right now, experts tells us his comments will hurt him in the long run politically as well.
SANCHEZ (voice-over): These words have cost Donald Trump a lot of money.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When Mexico sends his people, they are not sending their best. They're sending people that have lots of problems. And they are bringing those problems with us. They are bringing drugs. They are bringing crime. They are rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.
SANCHEZ: The billionaire entrepreneur now out of business with major companies.
TRUMP: You are fired.
SANCHEZ: NBC taking him off "The Apprentice." And along with Univision declining to air Trump's Miss USA and Miss Universe pageants. Macy's also pulling the plug on Trump's signature clothing line. TRUMP: My suits will guarantee you are always boardroom ready.
SANCHEZ: And mattress makers Serta which sells a line of Trump's branded beds not renewing his contract. Now the big apple, his hometown, also looking to dump Trump. New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio writing in a statement, "We are reviewing Trump's contracts with the city. Donald Trump's remarks were disgusting and offensive. And this hateful language has no place in our city."
(on camera): Not only is the city revealing a carousel, an ice skating rink in Central Park run by Trump, they are also looking to break the lucrative contract on this pricy public golf course here in The Bronx named after the presidential candidate.
New York City's park committee chair telling CNN their contracts have a terminate-at-will-clause that he believes the department should use to sever ties with Trump immediately. None of the criticism though has stopped Trump from doubling down on the message.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: But you don't have any regrets about that word rapists?
TRUMP: Some are good. Some are rapists. And some are killers and we don't even know what we're getting.
There's no apology. Because what I said is right. I mean, what I said is 100 percent right.
PETER SHANKMAN, BRAND MANAGEMENT EXPERT: Talking has made him a great businessman. However, talking doesn't necessarily make you a great politician.
SANCHEZ: A marketing expert Peter Shankman says, fiery soundbites likely won't help Trump down the road.
SHANKMAN: If he continues down this path, where he just says whatever pops into his brain, without so much to filter, he's going to start to anger people in much higher positions of power, people who can get him into office. And they are going to start to distance themselves if they already haven't started to distance themselves.
SANCHEZ: Now, we reached out to those companies that broke deals with Trump. They wouldn't give us specific figures for what those contracts were worth. But keep in mind, Kate, a deal that Trump signed with NBC in 2002 was worth $50 million. Quite a bit of money.
BOLDUAN: There's definitely a lot of money at stake no matter how you sliced it. Boris, thank you very much.
So, the highest visibility hit against Trump, NBC and Univision refusing to broadcast the Miss USA pageant that's scheduled to air just ten days from now.
But another cable channel, Reelz has now just stepped up and stepped in promising to air the contest despite Trump's partial ownership of the pageant.
Stan Hubbard is the CEO of Reelz and he is joining us right now. Mr. Hubbard, thank you very much. I mean, we just heard yet again some of what Trump has said about Mexican immigrants. And we now know of course you've heard Univision and NBC, they call his comments derogatory. Macy's calls them disparaging saying that they are inconsistent with the store's values. Why then is this something that you want to be associated with?
STAN HUBBARD, CEO, REELZ - SET TO AIR TRUMP'S MISS USA: Well, look, I'll tell you what, I agree with everything that NBC and Univision and Macy's are saying. I think those comment are ridiculous. We couldn't agree -- disagree with them more.
And -- but we look at this event, this pageant that has young women who have competed for this for years, they have worked hard, got themselves to Baton Rouge who rolled out the red carpet.
And this is their day in the sun, and we're going to give it to them. This has been on television for 53 years. This will be the 54th year of the Miss USA pageant.
And none of those contestants, none of the people in baton rouge, none of the little girls at home who aspire to this, want to watch it, none of the people at home who have been watching this on television for decades had anything to do with this.
The Miss USA pageant is about as non-political as anything could possibly be. It's an iconic television event. Our carriage of that was event should not be construed as anything political. It's anything but.
This is television. This is entertainment. This the Miss USA pageant.
BOLDUAN: Right, but this is also --
HUBBARD: We do not condone or agree with in any way any of the comments that Mr. Trump has to say.
BOLDUAN: What you hear, Mr. Hubbard, from what NBC and Univision is saying, it's tainted because Mr. Trump is so intrinsically linked -- he puts his brand -- when his brand is part of something, it's all over it. He is a big part of these pageants. He's always standing with the contestants. You can see him right there.
I want to play you again -- for our viewers, some of what Trump has said. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They are bringing drugs. They are bringing crime. They are rapists.
They are sending people that are like got a lot of problems.
No, there's no apology because what I said is right.
Women being raped, well, who is doing the raping? Who is doing the raping?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: I spoke with a reporter who wrote the piece that Trump is continuing to cite. She says he's totally misrepresenting her reporting. I think that's also important to point out. You say that you don't condone what he says. But this isn't part of it.
NBC and Univision, they couldn't separate the two. Why are you able to?
HUBBARD: Well, look, I think those comments are completely ridiculous. I think most of America thinks the same way.
I also think that when you are a giant corporation, you have lots of entanglements that an independent network doesn't have. And an independent network like Reelz is able to look at this pageant, look at these contestants, look at their community, look at this American tradition and get our arms around the good parts of it and bring it to television on July 12th.
The agreement that we made was with the pageant officials, not with the Trump organization, notwithstanding, I do understand the ownership situation. We paid a very small license fee to have the telecast. I can tell you, that fee isn't even going to come close to putting a small dent in what's going to cost to produce that pageant.
BOLDUAN: How much is the licensing fee?
HUBBARD: Any advertisers -- very small.
HUBBARD: If you said $100,000, you'd be pretty close to right.
BOLDUAN: So, who is going to foot the rest of the bill?
HUBBARD: The rest of the bill, I assume, is being fronted by the organization to put on the pageant and any advertisers that want to participate in this and be part of the event. And I can tell you, that's hard right now.
It's for the account of this network, not for the account of the pageant, not for the account of the Trump organization. There's no barter. There's no revenue share. It's completely belongs to Reelz.
We knew going in we may have no advertisers. We get it. Look, we have 11 days to sell it anyway with the holiday summer weekend in between. So, that makes it almost impossible.
We do think having the chance to bring this pageant and support those contestants and support that community is a worthwhile endeavor, and it is not a political move. It's a television move. BOLDUAN: Stan Hubbard, we really appreciate you coming in.
Thank you so much.
HUBBARD: Thank you.
BOLDUAN: Of course.
Brian Stelter is joining me OUTFRONT right now. So, you just heard from the CEO of Reelz. What do you think? What does this do for Reelz? Is this a worthwhile move? He thinks he's worthwhile.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: His last line was telling, Kate. He says this is a television move.
It does seem like that's what it is. Reelz doesn't have as much to lose as NBC or Univision. It's a smaller channel. If you're watching CNN right now, you probably have it at home and you don't realize it. It's probably on your channel lineup. It's one of those channels that's kind of hard to find.
This is an opportunity for people to find the channel. But make no mistake, the Hubbard family does have a history with the Republican Party, political donations, conservative causes, things like that.
That's significant because you hear about liberal bias in Hollywood. Well, they are the opposite. They are known for in the past, four years ago, airing a miniseries about the Kennedys that was critical. Some other networks didn't want to air it. It was about a famous Democratic family. So, Reelz aired it.
So, they are stepping up in the middle of the fight and trying to help out Miss USA, but also help out Donald Trump by getting this on the air.
[19:35:07] BOLDUAN: He said it's about the contestants. Are we hearing -- are the contestants satisfied with this as a solution?
BOLDUAN: As you said, right now, it's a pretty obscure channel.
STELTER: Yes, it's a pretty obscure channel. It's not going to get the millions of view it would have on NBC and Univision. There has to be some measure of disappointment. But today, I was seeing very positive reactions, because these 51 contestants felt they wouldn't be on TV.
BOLDUAN: They wouldn't make it on TV at all.
STELTER: Maybe they'd be streaming on the Internet. They were lucky.
The message today was, they are saving the sash, Reelz is saving the sash by getting it on television at all.
BOLDUAN: And you will have more this weekend, right? STELTER: That's right. We have Trump's lawyer on "RELIABLE
SOURCES" on Sunday. I'm interested to see if Univision is being sued, will NBC be sued? Will Macy's be sued?
They haven't really said anything about that yet. I have a feeling Trump, I'm just guessing here, I think they wanted this to go on for a while. This is getting him a lot of attention. This is a campaign issue. Who would have thought Miss USA is a campaign issue?
BOLDUAN: It is now.
Brian Stelter, thank you so much.
BOLDUAN: OUTFRONT next, this woman, we'll show you, pushed the debate over the Confederate flag to the next level when she climbed a flagpole to take it down. OUTFRONT tonight, Bree Newsome.
And shark attacks on the rise, just as Americans head to the beach for the holiday weekend. OUTFRONT tonight, a 12-year-old who just survived one of those attacks.
[19:40:18] BOLDUAN: The battle over the Confederate flag heating up tonight in South Carolina where the divisive symbol is still flying in front of the state capital, two weeks after the deadly shooting at a Charleston church. South Carolina Lawmakers could vote as early as Monday, though, to permanently remove it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma'am, come down off the pole. Ma'am, come down off the pole.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: This one woman already took matters into her own hands, climbing that 30-foot pole to remove the Confederate flag herself. She's now speaking out.
Bree Newsome was arrested along with James Tyson who helped her pull it off. They were both charged with defacing a monument and now face up to three years in jail.
And after all of that, less than an hour later it was back up and flying.
Well, Bree and James are OUTFRONT tonight.
Thank you so much both of you for coming in.
BREE NEWSOME, REMOVED CONFEDERATE FLAG FROM S.C. CAPITOL: Thank you.
BOLDUAN: So, Bree, you want the flag down?
BOLDUAN: A lot of people want the flag down. Why did you take such drastic measures then to do it yourself?
NEWSOME: Well, I really wanted to highlight just the unjust nature of the entire situation. I mean, the reason why South Carolina has been so held up in terms of removing their flag whereas you have seen in Alabama, they took the flag down right away. It's because there was this series of laws that were passed in the '60s and in the year 2000 to protect the symbol of hate, this symbol of treason.
And so, the fact that the legislature or the governor can't even move to remove the flag as Reverend Pinckney is being laid to rest I think just highlights the whole brokenness and injustice of the situation.
BOLDUAN: They wanted to highlight the justice as you see flag right back up, up and flying almost right after you were led away by police. So, what did you accomplish then?
NEWSOME: Well, that's exactly how direct action non-violence works, non-violent direct action works. It's to draw a clear moral contrast. I mean, there are two options. One is to leave the flag down and the other is to require the black worker to raise the flag back up, and because of the existence of this unjust law, the worker is required to raise the flag back up. So, it just highlights it's a moment for society to do a gut check of our values.
I mean, why is this? Is this where we want to be in the 21st century? Is it time to put this in a museum and really educate ourselves so we don't repeat it anymore?
BOLDUAN: So, James, why did you want to get involved?
JAMES TYSON, HELPED GUARD AS CONFEDERATE FLAG WAS REMOVED: I mean, I wan to get involved because white supremacy and racism is something that's really solely perpetuated by white people. As someone that could be considered white awake, I have to do my part. I have to put my own body or my own privilege at risk in order to further something that I truly believe in.
I believe we're all created equally. I believe we should all be -- we should have the same rights.
BOLDUAN: I want you to -- take a look at this. There's a new poll that was just out that said 33 percent of the people who were polled, they agree with you, that this is a symbol of racism. But a majority, 57 percent see it as a symbol of southern pride. What do you say to that?
NEWSOME: Well, I think one of the unfortunate things that this controversy highlighted as well is the extent to which we are not educating people on the history of this nation. I mean, this is an issue that divided our nation. Millions of Americans died fighting over this issue of slavery.
And I mean, if you go and look at what was written by the actual founders of the confederacy, they made it extremely clear that they were seceding because they disagreed with the United States Constitution and they disagreed with the notion that all people are created equal. They wanted to maintain slavery. I mean, it's straightforward.
BOLDUAN: So, now, looking forward, we know the governor wants the flag down. It looks like lawmakers, they are moving in that direction. But it's all part of a process. It's a legal process.
So, looking back at it, do you fear at all that the actions that you took could hurt the chances to have this flag permanently removed?
NEWSOME: Well, I think that if that's the case, then that just further highlights the brokenness of our system. As social justice workers, we're blamed for creating the problem by bringing attention to the problem.
BOLDUAN: So, for both of you, no regrets?
NEWSOME: No, absolutely not.
TYSON: Absolutely not.
BOLDUAN: No matter, jail time or whatever you face?
NEWSOME: Absolutely not. I accept that as part of my calling as a freedom fighter.
BOLDUAN: Bree Newsome, James Tyson --
NEWSOME: Thank you.
BOLDUAN: -- thank you so much for coming on.
TYSON: Thank you very much.
BOLDUAN: OUTFRONT next, with at least ten shark attacks off the Carolinas in recent months and millions heading to the beach this holiday weekend, what can you do to stay safe in the water? Well, my guest, a 12-year-old shark attack survivor.
And should you give peas a chance when it comes to your guacamole? Jeanne Moos on the outrage over a recipe that some say has, oh, yes, gone too green.
[19:48:57] BOLDUAN: Nervous holiday beachgoers on edge tonight as the number of shark attacks are on the rise. In recent months there have been ten shark attacks on the coast of North and South Carolina. The victims include a 12-year-old boy who survived an attack just this week. We're going to be speak with him in a moment.
But, first, meteorologist Jennifer Gray, she is OUTFRONT in Wrightsville Beach, North Carolina.
Jennifer, I used to live and work in North Carolina. I have been to that beach many of times. Are they taking extra precautions there, though, tonight?
JENNIFER GRAY, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Well, one thing to note is we haven't seen any bites at this beach, but along both Carolina coasts, definitely an uptick in bites. They can't close the beaches down. The park service regulates anything that happens along the beach. But beyond that, once you reach the water, it's out of their control. So, they have no intention on closing beaches. They're just telling people to swim at their own risk.
Basically, sharks are like any wild animal. They are searching for food constantly. And so, for whatever reason, their food is drifting closer to shore, that's where the sharks are going to go.
Also, they have very poor eyesight.
[19:50:0] And so, if they see something in the water or they are searching for food and they bump into something, maybe a person, they possibly are going to take a bite.
But it's clear we're not on the menu, because once they bite, they always let go.
So, one thing to remember is not swim near fishermen. They're using bait. They're going to attract smaller fish. And a lot of times, these fishermen are really fishing for sharks.
So, don't swim anywhere you see these fishermen. Also, stay away from piers. Fish like structure. So, you want to avoid those areas.
But the most important thing, Kate, is just be aware. Of course, when you're out here, the holiday weekend is supposed to pick up. We are expecting a lot of people to hit the beaches.
BOLDUAN: Absolutely. And it like it could be beautiful. But there' some good important advice tonight. Thank you so much, Jennifer.
Joining me now is 12-year-old Kysen Weakley and his mother Alene. Kysen, as we have mentioned, just two days ago bitten in the leg by a shark seeing photos right here at a beach in South Carolina.
Kysen, Alene, it's a pleasure to meet you.
Amazing that we are talking under these circumstances. Walk us through what happened. You were swimming in the ocean and then what?
KYSEN WEAKLEY, SURVIVED SHARK ATTACK: So I was kind of floating on my belly with my hands in the sand. And I was like just having the current push me through. And the wave came. And felt a pain in my leg. And I turned around and saw the fin of the shark like swimming away.
And so, I yelled to my cousin to get out of the water. And so I like swam over to the edge of the shore.
WEAKLEY: And I got up and pulled up my pant leg. And there was -- teeth marks and blood running down it.
BOLDUAN: Alene, as he is retelling the story. I am just in awe. How did you stay calm throughout all this?
ALENE WEAKLEY, SON SURVIVED SHARK ATTACK: I felt calm. I wasn't ever at a point where I felt freaked out. I think because he was so close to the shore. When I saw the blood coming down, I thought -- wow, this, this is a bite. And I thought -- is this a shark bite? You know? I didn't really know. And then --
BOLDUAN: When you found out it is a shark bite I am sure you are thanking your lucky stars that it ended the way it did.
ALENE WEAKLEY: Well, well, I even asked the lifeguard are you sure? They're like, yes, this is a shark bite.
BOLDUAN: And, Kysen, your cousin was in the water, younger cousin in the water not too far away. Were you afraid for him, what did you do?
KYSEN WEAKLEY: I turned to him and looked at him and yelled at him to get out of the water. And I started like going and like he wasn't moving super fast. I yelled to him again and told him to like swim as fast, yelled to him to get out of the water. And -- then I stood up and his mom realized that I had been bitten by something big. And she like started yelling to him to get out of the water as fast as he could.
BOLDUAN: I would say so. And your mom has told us that you at some point during all of this said that this was going to be a pretty awesome story to tell. And, let's be honest, not many people can say they have been bitten by a shark and in such good shape as you are.
So, what are your friend saying about all of this?
KYSEN WEAKLEY: Well, a lot of, pretty much all of my friends are like that's so cool, you have to show me the scar when you get back. I'm like, oh, I will show you the scar, don't worry.
BOLDUAN: And you will have a story to tell for a very long time.
Kysen, it is a pleasure to meet you. Alene, you as well. We all hope your summer from here on out is a whole lot less eventful than it has been so far.
ALENE WEAKLEY: Yes, that's what we are hoping for the rest of our vacation.
BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Thank you.
ALENE WEAKLEY: Thank you.
KYSEN WEAKLEY: Thanks.
BOLDUAN: What a cute family.
OUTFRONT next, Jeanne Moos with the guacamole and peas recipe that has everyone all stirred up.
[19:57:54] BOLDUAN: So peas and guacamole, discussed. But, first, here is Jeanne Moos on the great guac debate.
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Holy guacamole, why would any one take perfectly good guacamole and add peas?
You won't try it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I don't like peas.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, that's good.
MOOS: The food fight started when the "New York Times" ran a recipe for pea guacamole, and tweeted, "add green peas to your guacamole. Trust us."
Instead of trust they got mockery. "Put miracle whip on your New York pretzel, trust me." "Add cilantro to your cannoli."
President Obama tweeted, "Respect 'The New York Times', but not buying peas and guac."
The anti-peas sentiment is bipartisan.
JIMMY FALLON, THE TONIGHT SHOW: Ever tried peas in your guacamole?
JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We don't do peas in guacamole, my man.
MOOS: Leave guacamole alone was the battle cry.
MOOS: Chipotle tweeted, "Let there be peas on earth but not in guac."
Give peas a chance --
Peas had defenders. Former Congressman John Dingell asked, why would any body add guacamole to perfectly good peas?
Pea guacamole seems to have originated at the highly regarded Manhattan restaurant, ABC Cocina.
IAN COOGAN, CHEF DE CUISINE, ABC COCINA: Can you close your eyes and say, there are peas in there? Maybe not so much, but there are nuances. Again, it's a little lightness, a little sweetness that I think is very pleasant.
MOOS: TV hosts taste testing madly.
TV ANCHOR: Try, try. You are going to love it.
MOOS: We took our taste test to the streets.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wow!
MOOS: You're making that up. Can you tell they're in there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Honestly no.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Taste them.
MOOS: Do you even taste the peas?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
MOOS: Go ahead and sing your pea guacamole protest anthem.
MOOS: Peacamole perhaps? Or maybe --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guacamol-pea.
MOOS: Spoken like a true appeaser.
Jeanne Moos --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am a pea person.
MOOS: That's good to hear.
BOLDUAN: Now, I'm -- now I'm just hungry.
Thanks for joining us, everybody. "AC360" starts right now.