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GOP Candidates Talk Tough; Confederate Flag Controversy: Hero or Criminal?; UK Remembers Tunisian Terror Victims; Mount Zion AME Church Fire Started by Lightning; Shark Attacks on NC Beaches. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired July 03, 2015 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Well, the backlash against Donald Trump for his comments on Mexico and immigrants continues to grow, not just with retailers, but also with his fellow Republicans.

[09:30:08] Rick Perry becoming the latest to condemn the remarks, calling them, quote, "a huge error," and adding that Trump's views do not reflect the views of the party. Perry speaking just one day after former New York Governor George Pataki called on the Republican field, all of the candidates, to denounce Trump.

Here to discuss, CNN's senior Washington correspondent Jeff Zeleny, and also CNN political reporter Sara Murray.

Guys, thank you for being here.

Sara, let me begin with you. Is it riskier to engage Donald Trump on this issue, right, and give him sort of the credence and credibility and air time and take it away from other issues, or ignore him?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: I feel like the longer it's gone on, the riskier it is for Republicans to just ignore it and pretend like it wasn't happening. I think Republicans sort of hoped that the Donald Trump candidacy would implode on its own in relatively short order and then they would all move on. But it's clear, you know, as Donald Trump has done well in some of these polls, that he's going to be around for at least a little while.

And so I think we saw with Rick Perry yesterday that they've clearly decided that it would be riskier to just ignore these comments. And even during the day yesterday, Rick Perry started off saying, look, these comments don't reflect the Republican Party. And as the day went on, he grew sharper in his judgment of Donald Trump, saying that this was a huge error. And I expect that we're going to see more of that from Republicans as they're called on to address these remarks from Donald Trump.

HARLOW: And what about -- it's not just Republicans, right? I mean, look, even if you're not running in a primary race with him, Jeff, is it incumbent upon some of the -- the five Democrats now in the race to -- to call him out specifically?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Poppy, I'm not sure that a lot of Democrat are going to weigh in on this. I mean, quite frankly, they're enjoying the spectacle and they're sitting back watching this happen. If you're, you know, a Democrat, why should you sort of join into this, you know, internal firing squad that really is going on inside the Republican Party?

I mean, Sara's right, this is a really interesting moment for these Republican presidential candidates too. You know, perhaps have a leadership moment and perhaps step up and say, you know, what Donald Trump is saying is not what the party should be saying. And we're seeing more and more of that. Some are being more sort of bold and brash about this than others, but Lindsey Graham, campaigning across Iowa this week -- he, of course, is the Republican from South Carolina who's been a long proponent of immigration reform. He's saying that, you know, these comment have no place in the Republican Party here. So I think for now this is largely a Republican matter and Democrats are not sort of -- you know, are going to weigh in on this, but they're certainly enjoying this from the outside because they believe that it is going to hurt the Republican Party in the end in terms of getting those Hispanic voters in the general election.

HARLOW: Yes. And we've seen how much of a push there was after Romney lost from the RNC, and we'll talk about that more in the show a little later but to -- to really galvanize the movement, to get more of those Hispanic voters on board and to be much more focused on minority votes across the board.

I do want to turn our attention to -- Sara, to Scott Walker, because on July 13th that is when he is expected to officially jump in the race. And it's interesting because he was really soaring high in the polls a few weeks ago. He's fallen off a little bit from the polls. Some have said his brand is, you know, potentially a little more tarnished. He's out of the top five in a recent CNN poll. How does he recapture the attention of the electorate and really galvanize people when he announces to get the fundraising he needs.

MURRAY: Well, I would say a lot of this comes from announcing that you are an official candidate for president. That means he can sort of go out there and start campaigning regularly. He's trying to finish up the budget in Wisconsin. And he can be a full-fledged presidential candidate, be out in Iowa as much as he feels like he needs to be.

The other thing I would say is, there's really not a lot of value in being in the top of the polls right now in the Republican field. As we've seen in past Republican primaries, there are really high swings and really spectacular falls. And so if you are ahead in the polls right now, that means you have a very big target on your back. I think you're much safer if you're a Republican and you're kind of in the middle of the pack, at least for now. But there's no doubt that at some point Scott Walker is going to need to have a breakout moment if he wants to be able to win some of these early states.

HARLOW: And, look, he's a really well-known name. He won sort of a contentious reelection battle not that long ago in his state.

But, Jeff, I want to talk about maybe not as well known a name but a really interesting candidate who just got in this week on the Democratic side, marking number five for Democrats, former Virginia Senator Jim Webb announcing his candidacy. I want to read you in part what he said.

He said, "our country needs a fresh approach to solving the problems that confront us and too often unnecessarily divide us. We need to shake the hold of these shadow elites on our political process."

A lot of people wouldn't know about Jim Webb. He is the only combat veteran in this political field. He's written ten bestselling books, was executive producer of the movie "Rules of Engagement," not that that makes you qualified to be president. This is a decorated sort of former member of the military. Someone with a different voice.

[09:35:00] Jeff, when you look at someone like that without as much of the name recognition, what does that do to the race on the Democratic side?

ZELENY: It depends how serious of a candidate he wants to be, quite frankly, Poppy. I mean he is a senator from Virginia, which, of course, is a key swing state. A very important state politically. So he has that going for him. But I am still not convinced that he is really in this to fight as hard as he can.

He put out his announcement yesterday (INAUDIBLE) a web video and then he's not campaigning until perhaps next week. Some of his aides aren't even sure if he's going to be out there, you know, in the short-term. So I think if he decides to aggressively campaign, I think there is a space for him, actually. Foreign policy is a central concern to a lot of voters.

HARLOW: Right.

ZELENY: He has a unique window on that. As a senator, he was very interesting in the Senate. Sort of a -- a moderate senator, if you will. So it just depends how -- how aggressively he decides to campaign or how much he wants to differentiate himself from Hillary Clinton. At this point we're not yet sure how serious of a candidacy he'll be waging.

HARLOW: And even Hillary Clinton supporters early on, when she jumped in, a lot of them said it would be good for her to have a being challenge in primaries.

ZELENY: Sure.

HARLOW: So we're certainly seeing more and more of that. Guys, thank you very much. Have a great Fourth.

MURRAY: Thanks.

ZELENY: Thanks, Poppy.

HARLOW: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, some call her a hero, others a criminal. Why the woman who pulled down the confederate flag at the South Carolina state capital say she has no regrets.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [09:40:34] HARLOW: When Bree Newsome climbed a South Carolina flag pole last week and removed the confederate flag from the grounds of the state capital, some hailed her as a modern day civil rights hero. Others, even people who feel that flag should come down, have said that she should have let the law take its course and take the lead. Newsome faces up to three years in jail after being charged with defacing a monument. In a fascinating interview last night on "Erin Burnett Outfront," she says she has no regrets.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BREE NEWSOME, REMOVED CONFEDERATE FLAG FROM S.C. CAPITAL: Well, I really wanted to highlight just the -- the unjust nature of the entire situation. I mean the reason why South Carolina has been so held up in terms of removing their flag, whereas you've seen like in Alabama they took the flag down right away, is because, you know, there was this series of laws that were passed in the '60s and then in the year 2000 to protect this symbol of hate, this symbol of treason.

Well, I think one of the unfortunate things that this whole controversy has highlighted as well is the extent to which we are not properly educating people on the history of this nation. I mean this is an issue that divided our nation. Millions of Americans died fighting over this issue of slavery. And, I mean, if you go and look at what was written by the actual founders of the confederacy, they make it extremely clear that they were seceding because they disagreed with the United States Constitution and they disagreed with the notion that all people are created equal. They wanted to maintain slavery. I mean it's pretty straightforward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: And she said, look, she knows she faces up to three years in prison and she knew that going into this and she's willing to take it if that is the punishment.

Also interesting to note here. This new CNN poll shows that a majority of Americans disagree with her view of the confederate flag. Fifty- seven percent saying it is a symbol of southern pride. 33 percent viewing it as a symbol of racism.

Let's talk about it with cultural critic and author Michaela Angela Davis, who is, I can tell, surprise seeing those numbers.

MICHAELA ANGELA DAVIS, CULTURAL CRITIC, WRITER: By that poll, yes.

HARLOW: Just came out yesterday.

DAVIS: You know, I -- and I think it's what Bree said, we don't know the history. I think that this is a real reflection on our education, right? Like if we knew that the reason why the confederate fought was because of slavery, point blank, and that's -- that's why I think that when the president made that very clear in the eulogy it was helpful because maybe now when American history is taught, we can actually know the facts because I think when you would ask someone on the street, do you agree with slavery, I think most people would say no. HARLOW: Yes.

DAVIS: But because they don't understand clearly that's what that flag represents.

HARLOW: Let me push -- is that an excuse? Is that an excuse for people saying they weren't educated?

DAVIS: What, that they don't -- that --

HARLOW: I mean, really?

DAVIS: Well, I think -- I think -- I think racism, supremacy, everything is about ignorance, right, and also a resistance to our history. And I think that's what we're facing right now is telling the whole story and what that represents because even Bree's actions, very American. She's a patriot. That's a freedom fighter act. She was a flag slayer in this great patriotic tradition. We have always gone against laws that we thought were against humanity. Walking across the bridge in Selma, Alabama, was breaking the law.

HARLOW: Yes.

DAVIS: We do this.

HARLOW: But we saw the governor of South Carolina, Nikki Haley, come out with fellow Republicans, in the Senate, Lindsey Graham, Tim Scott, coming out and saying take the flag down.

DAVIS: Sure.

HARLOW: Now it's the legislature process.

DAVIS: Right.

HARLOW: You've got to get two-thirds of the legislature on to this.

DAVIS: Yes.

HARLOW: What about -- should -- should she have waited to let that play out?

DAVIS: Well, you know what -- it's interesting because there's an urgency around this, right? And I think why it was also a feminist act, we have to remember that three black women were going to be buried on that day. So there's something also as a human being, do we honor them by them being buried under that flag today? So the urgency in which -- because now the governor says, we have to make a date to talk about talking about taking it down. But on that day when that community is in so much pain, that flag is a constant reminder. And, again, three women were buried on that day. And one woman went up and got that flag down.

HARLOW: And then it was put up an hour later. It went back up

I do want everyone to look at these poll numbers because when you -- when you talk about sort of the debate over the flag, it shows a deeper divide when it comes to race. Nationwide, more African- Americans believe the flag is a symbol of racism. Seventy-two percent of those African-Americans polled believe it is to 25 percent who believe that it is not a racist symbol. What does that tell us?

[09:44:56] DAVIS: Disconnect. And people whose lives weren't threatened with that as a symbol. Of course why people who don't know the history don't have that same experience. But we also have to look at our human history when Loving versus the state of Virginia, when that interracial --

HARLOW: A huge Supreme Court case.

DAVIS: Seventy-six percent of the country was against interracial marriage. That's shocking. Today, if you would someone are you against interracial, you would say no. So sometimes, are humanity is leading our intelligence, right? So, I feel like I'm not - I'm a little shocked because you want to be optimistic, but we have a history of sometimes being really behind the ball, particularly when it comes to race because our experiences are so different.

HARLOW: But then when things change, they change quickly --

DAVIS: Quicker now.

HARLOW: -- like we've seen with sort of the --

DAVIS: Marriage equality.

HARLOW: -- the community leading more than politicians even before the court on gay marriage, for example.

DAVIS: Well, because, you know, also I think there are more people who have, you know, gay and lesbian people in their families and the way that we can communicate now. But if you have never been terrorized, it's hard for you to really understand what that symbol means and we have to communicate with each other t to share our experiences so you can see that our destinies are linked.

And I think that, that Confederate flag represents our divide, not that our destinies are linked together as Americans. And so I think that's where we have to get together, but I think these little devices, social media and the way that we're able to share, communicate and report on each other is making history move faster, like marriage equality. You know, jus the President in his own first term wasn't completely on board.

HARLOW: Right, it was three years ago when he made it public.

DAVIS: And now the White House was a rainbow.

HARLOW: Good to have your on. Happy fourth.

DAVIS: It's my pleasure.

HARLOW: Thank you Michaela. I appreciate it. Coming up next in the NEWSROOM, new arrests in that beachfront terror attack, horrifying attack last week, in Tunisia. Also, crucial evidence coming from the shooter's cellphone. We'll discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:51:13] HARLOW: The United Kingdom coming to stand still this morning. People paying silent tribute to the victims of the deadly terror attack last week in Tunisia. Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip taking part in the moment of silence remembering Britain's 30 citizens who were tragically gunned down in that Tunisian beach. Wimbledon starting matches late to allow spectators and players to join in the remembrance. And although the gunman was killed, the investigation still very much under way. Eight suspects now also under arrest.

Let's talk about it with CNN's Senior International Correspondent, Nima Elbagir, joins us in Tunisia. Nima, thank you for being here. I understand the police are looking for more suspects. Is the thinking here that this was a pretty large terror ring?

NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. I mean, some of the details that are emerging about the men that are being sought really gives you a sense of how interconnected this network is. One suspect specifically is believed to have been involved with the terror attack that hit that museum that Tunis just over a month ago. So, you start to get a sense of this highly sophisticated, quite far reaching network, especially as authorities here tell CNN that they believe that the men who - the man who carried out this attack trained with the man who carried out the Tunis museum attack at the same time. So, that's quite far reaching, forward thinking planning to be able to have done that without alerting the authorities to what they were thinking of doing. To be able to move men between here, across the Libyan border into that ISIS footprint. This is all extraordinarily concerning given that over arching arc of allegiance that ISIS now has that is spreading through North Africa, Poppy.

[ 09:52:55] HARLOW: Nima Elbagir reporting for us in Tunisia. This tragic, but a beautiful remembrance of those 30 people today in Britain. Thank you very much. Quick break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: All right, this just into us at CNN. That investigation into a church fire in Greeleyville, South Carolina, has just been wrapped up. The ATF tweeting just moments ago the fire at Mt. Zion AME Church was started by lightning, not arson. The church is one of six traditionally black churches that had burned in recent weeks. Two of those have been determined to have been started by arson.

Well shark attack survivors are speaking out. Listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

PATRICK THOMAS, SHARK ATTACK SURVIVOR: I started shouting shark! Shark! Everyone out of the water! At the same time I'm punching the shark trying to get the shark away from me and then went over to, you know, to obviously grab my son. If I would have been in the ocean for another, you know, few minutes, you know, the other sharks showed up pretty quickly. I don't know if I would have made it out alive.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

HARLOW: That gives you chills. You're looking at a map where you've seen ten attacks there in North Carolina. Experts say current water conditions could mean that we'll see even more.

Let's talk to Alina Machado about it. She is along the Outer Banks at Wrightsville Beach. That is a famous beach, especially for this holiday weekend. Have they come up with any answers as to why so many attacks, especially there?

ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, actually Poppy, no attacks have actually happened here in Wrightsville Beach, but the attacks have happened along the Carolina Coast, some up north, some south, and it's definitely something that people here on the beach are thinking about, but look behind me, it's not keeping people from actually getting in the water. You can see some surfers in the distance. You look over here, there are some families also in the water. Just from talking to beachgoers yesterday and today, it seems like they are thinking about these shark attacks. It's definitely on their minds, but they're not fearful because, obviously, they are getting in the water. If anything, Poppy, these attacks have been heightening their awareness of the fact that sharks are in the water.

HARLOW: And Alina, one other question for you, when you look at, sort of, what can be done, I know some of these tips seem sort of obvious, like look around you, but what else are they saying?

MACHADO: You know, there're certain times of day that you shouldn't be in the water because there's a higher probability that a shark will be, you know, there feeding. Dusk, dawn, those are two areas, two times that you shouldn't be in the water. Also, some experts believe that keep your bling at home. Don't wear shiny jewelry because that could simulate fish scales, and it maybe could attract a shark.

HARLOW: Very good point. Alina Machado, have a great, great holiday. Thank you. 10:00 Eastern, happening now in the NEWSROOM on alert.