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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Lawmakers Debate Confederate Battle Flag Removal; Chicago Violence Over Holiday Weekend. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired July 06, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:03] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, I'm Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

This is an angry battle that's been raging for decades and the debate that could end it once and for all is happening today in the South Carolina state capital. That's where lawmakers are taking up legislation to take down the Confederate flag. The governor and many others have renewed calls for the civil war battle flag to come down on the grounds of the statehouse following that church massacre in Charleston that claimed the lives of nine people.

CNN's Nick Valencia is live in Columbia, the capital of South Carolina.

So, Nick, tell me where we stand just sort of procedurally with this plan to try to introduce legislation to take down the flag.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, today that special session started just after 10:00 a.m. where the senate here in the state of South Carolina debated the merits of this bill that would permanently remove the Confederate flag from state grounds. A flag that has flown on the state capital since 1916. Fifteen years ago it was moved just in front of the front steps to a confederacy monument that is the battle flag of the confederacy.

What we were told or what we've been reading, "Post and Courier" had a survey last week with some of the lawmakers suggesting that there are enough votes to get this bill passed. I spoke to one former representative today and he said that may not be the case. Today, politics are fickle, was his explanation. They would need 31 votes in the senate, 75 votes in the house, which amounts to two-thirds majority in both chambers of the state's general assembly to get this bill passed that would permanently remove the Confederate flag.

You can see behind me that there are people lining up. They have been there all morning long, supporters of this Confederate flag, who say that it is an institution in this state. An example and a representation of southern heritage and pride. Others simply say that it is a symbol of racism and hatred. Earlier, we went into that crowd to talk to people on both sides of the issue.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NELSON WALLER, CONFEDERATE FLAG SUPPORTER: The flag stands for the south, that's what it stands for. It has only been politicized since the NAACP was almost out of business due to internal corruption in the early 1990s. That's the only reason there's any controversy over it. Everybody loves the south and the flag worldwide. They love "Gone With the Wind." And so it's totally artificial, this whole conflict. I call it a non-troversy.

VALENCIA: Why do you think it came to a physical confrontation?

ELAINE COOPER, WANTS CONFEDERATE FLAG TO COME DOWN: Because I was holding the sign. That's it. Plain and simple, that's it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: Now, you heard my question there in that report. That woman, we spoke to her just after she was giving a statement to police. That other gentleman who we features in the interview just prior to that was said to have pushed that young woman, or that woman, I should say, because she was saying -- holding a sign that said "take it down." So this -- this debate has turned physical at times here in front of the state capital. We understand that the Senate has just adjourned still 1:00 p.m. The house will begin their debate at 1 p.m. as well.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: And just -- just quickly, Nick, before I let you go, do we know about any numbers? Has anyone done informal polling of the lawmakers to find out where they stand on this issue? Two-thirds is a lot.

VALENCIA: It is a lot. It is the magic number and it's something that was written into law when they decided to change the flag from the state capital to the front steps or just on this Confederate monument, I should say. Earlier we spoke to Marlon Kimpson, who was one of the senators that introduced this bill. He said that he had 29 votes pledging to back this bill, but we're talking to some of those lawmakers today and they say they may not be the case. So it could very well turn out to be a dramatic week ahead, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: All right, our Nick Valencia live in Columbia reporting for us. Thank you, Nick.

And joining me now also from Columbia is State Senator Darrell Jackson, who helped to negotiate the promise -- or the compromise that brought the Confederate flag off the statehouse dome and down to its current location in the war memorial back in 2000.

Senator, thanks so much for taking the time to be with me. I guess, off the bat, I need to ask you, listening to Nick's reporting and listening to the people who are out there and protesting on either side of this debate, are you confident that this vote is going to go the way you hope it's going to go, meaning two-thirds of both houses are going to vote to take that flag down?

DARRELL JACKSON (D), SOUTH CAROLINA STATE SENATE: Ashleigh, I am confident. I am hopefully optimistic that we will have the votes. We have been working the last couple of weeks to try to form a coalition. And even as late as 10, 15 minutes ago we were still talking to members. So, yes, I am somewhat confident and hopeful that we will have the 31 votes necessary to bring the flag down.

[12:05:02] BANFIELD: Can I ask you, if that doesn't happen, is there a plan B? Have you thought through?

JACKSON: Not really because I -- I am pretty optimistic that it's going to happen. I think we will stay here in the senate until that happens. If it doesn't happen on the first vote, we will take another vote. It is the intent of the members of the senate to resolve this, this week.

As you said earlier, I have been dealing with this for almost 20 years. Fifteen years ago there were four flags. Now there's one. And my hope is, after this week there will be no flags on the statehouse ground. And I think the votes are there in the senate to get this done. And then we will pass it to the house and, quite honestly, Ashleigh, I think the house is waiting on the senate's leadership to see what we do. If we reach the threshold and pass it over to the house, I do think they will also pass the bill.

BANFIELD: Well, speaking of leadership, the governor, Nikki Haley, did a change of heart and has called for the removal of the flag.

JACKSON: Sure.

BANFIELD: I'm wondering if you've been able to get a sense, because that's really only very recently that she did that, have you been able to get a sense of how that's affected other Republican lawmakers. Have some of them said "good, this is our political cover, we can do this now"? Or have others said "no, it doesn't make a difference what the governor says, I believe what I believe, I'm sticking to my guns"?

JACKSON: Well, we are a strong legislative state and the governor's position was helpful but I'm not sure it actually moved any votes. I think what has happened that is even more important would be other legislators coming together, meeting with their colleagues. We have been talking behind the scenes, behind closed doors, we have been talking over the weekend and I think the volts are there.

Now, I commend the governor for her most recent position, although that was not her position when she ran for re-election. But what is going to make the difference is not the governor's position but other senators believing in each other and really working together to get it done. And so I am pretty optimistic that we will get it done this week.

BANFIELD: Well, you've got your work cut out for you, so I won't keep you any longer. But Senator Darrell Jackson, thanks for being with us today. Appreciate it. Nice to see you.

JACKSON: Thank you, Ashleigh. Thank you for having me.

BANFIELD: So would -- good to have you and I appreciate your time.

Would removing the Confederate flag really change anything? And what does this debate reveal about race relations across the entire country? That's coming up next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:11:10] BANFIELD: Want to talk about the Confederate flag debate in South Carolina and how it fits in with America's larger dialogue about race. And joining me now do that is CNN contributor and former South Carolina State Representative Bakari Sellers, along with South Carolina attorney and author Gordon Rhea, who is adamant that the flag should not fly on the statehouse grounds.

Welcome to both of you.

Bakari, if I could just start with you. A lot of people have asked this question while they watch this flag debate and they see that image constantly on their screens of the flag flying on the state grounds in South Carolina. Does the flag represent the panacea to what most people think ails them, at least in that state, or perhaps even elsewhere?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, thank you for asking the question. This has been a long journey. Many people in South Carolina understand the history of the flag that's flying behind me. Many people know that that flag went up in 1961. It went up as resistance to the civil rights progress that was being made not just in South Carolina but throughout the south. We also understand that that flag was fought under so that many of my forefathers would still be in shackles in slavery. We understand that.

But this is an interesting debate because the tension is so high right now. As you see behind me over my shoulder, we have many protesters out here right now. And so the blood is boiling very high here in South Carolina. But we hope, by the end of the week, we're very prayerful, we hope by the end of the week that flag will come down.

BANFIELD: So, Gordon, let me bring you into this conversation. I read a piece that you wrote for cnn.com that I thought was very poignant and it talks about all of the different symbols that we have ascribed to the generals and to the valor and the honor of those who fought for the confederacy all throughout the United States. And the very last line of your piece sort of made me shake my head and I needed to ask you how you arrived at this statement. I want to read it for our viewers. "The best we can strive for is context, the entire complicated story and the understanding that it is sometimes appropriate to celebrate the bravery of men without endorsing the ill- conceived cause that drew them into battle." But does that mean that the flag is OK if for some people it stands for the bravery of battle and not racism?

GORDON RHEA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, no. My position is that the flag has to come off of any structure or grounds that stands for the state of South Carolina. Official symbolism that lends it any support, any legitimacy. The Confederate battle flag, which is what we're talking about, was the flag that was -- the flag of a breakaway republic that was based on the concept of preserving slavery, expanding slavery, white supremacy. In my childhood, in the 1950s and '60s, it was the flag of opposition to civil rights and today it's still the flag of white supremacists. We just saw Mr. -- the killer Roof here in Charleston, of course, who was surrounded with Confederate flags. So it's so loaded with that kind of symbolism. It has no place on government properties.

The interesting question becomes, what about private properties? Obviously if people want to wear Confederate flags on their t-shirts or put them on their bumper stickers, that's fine. We have a First Amendment and you have the right to do that. But there's a lot of -- a lot of grades in between.

What about statutes of Confederate generals? What about statues or memorials to the brave men who fought for the confederacy? I think we need to look at each of those independently. We've seen a lot of that going on during these past few weeks, stores, historic sites have tried --

BANFIELD: Sure. Sure.

RHEA: To decide what to do about their symbols. I think we need to look at them individually and ask a series of questions. Can they be used educationally so that people can learn what the confederacy was really all about? Are there ways to move --

BANFIELD: Well, that's -- that's my next point. I'm glad you said that because I wanted -- I wanted to read something from the vice president of the Confederacy, Alexander Stephens. And when we're talking about individual issues --

[12:15:12] RHEA: Right.

BANFIELD: And individual generals, many of whom have army bases named after them. There are 10 U.S. Army bases named after U.S. -- or, rather, Confederate generals. There are naval vessels named after generals. Listen to what the VP of the Confederacy said. "The Confederacy's foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man, that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." And yet I look at the list of things named after Alexander Stephens. I mean Stephens County, Georgia, Stephens County, Texas, AH Stephens Historic Park, a state park near Crawfordville. There is a statue of him in the U.S. Capitol's National Statutory Hall.

Bakari, this is where I start to wonder. Are there differences between the generals and the leaders or is it the entire issue of those who fought for the confederacy simply stood for those things and therefore eventually all have to be assuaged?

SELLERS: Well, I think we need to take a look at each and every one of them separately. For example, on the statehouse grounds over my left shoulder, we have a statue of pitchfork Ben Tillman, who actually led a lynch mob and assassinate a black state senator back during 1800s. So you have these various symbols which breed racism, which breed hate, which are still being honored here today on government property. And that's the biggest issue we have.

But I cannot put the cart before the horse. There are many people who marched many miles who bled real blood into the ground of this great state so that that Confederate flag can come down. So before we move forward, before we start talking about other symbols and monuments and things of that sort, we have to focus on the goal that's here this week because this will be a large step in the history of South Carolina if that flag is able to be brought down for the last time from in front of the statehouse.

When I was a member, no matter what day it was, no matter what we were going through, even if I was feeling joy, I would have to go outside and take a deep breath under the auspices of the Confederate flag, which to me meant so much hate. And I'm just happy that we're at this moment having this discussion. But our job now is to see it through.

BANFIELD: Bakari Sellers and Gordon Rhea, I appreciate you both taking the time.

RHEA: I -- I --

BANFIELD: Oh, it's all the time I've got, but will you come back and discuss this because we are just in the middle of this -- this debate in both of those statehouses. I'd love to have you both back.

SELLERS: (INAUDIBLE).

RHEA: Thank you. And I -- I agree completely. Those symbols have to come down from official places.

BANFIELD: Well, thank you to both of you, and we will see you back on the program soon.

Coming up next, a bullet aimed at a Chicago gang member kills his own seven-year-old son instead. Just one tragic story among dozens and dozens over the weekend. But could this be the case that helps to turn things around?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:21:36] BANFIELD: When you hear that seven people were shot and killed in just two days over the weekend in Chicago, you may dismiss it that it's a high-crime city. But then you look at the face of this seven-year-old boy, Amari Brown, because he's one of the victims. The bullet that was meant for his father, a ranking gang member, instead found him. So is dad cooperating in the investigation? Vigorously trying to help police track down his son's murderer? Not in the least. No, he's been arrested 45 times himself and he has a lengthy criminal record. The city's top police officer says he shouldn't have been out on the streets and if he had been in custody, that young boy would be alive today. At a vigil for Amari yesterday, a family friend told the media that unless real changes are made, nothing will change.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL SINGLETON, FAMILY FRIEND: All of y'all will be back out here next week on another corner feeling the same thing for somebody else saying exactly what I'm saying. So I'm tired of doing news conferences and I'm tired of listening to them and I'm tired of talking about them. Until we make a better decision as a community and as a city, this is all that's going to happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: CNN national correspondent Ryan Young is live with us now in Chicago.

I heard the chief of police saying that we need a community response. We need to come together. We need help on all of this. But how is today any different than yesterday or the day before?

RYAN YOUNG, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Ashleigh, what a strong question to start with. Of course, so many people talking about this across the community. You have people who feel like they're locked in their homes. Who are tired of the violence and say, hey, we want to stand up against violence. But what happens when everybody kind of goes away?

We went to that neighborhood and kind of walked around and saw all the police officers in the area. Right where this shooting happened, there was actually a camera near that area. That's a police surveillance camera near where the seven-year-old was fatally shot. And, of course, what seven-year-old shouldn't be able to go outside and enjoy the fireworks display that everyone across this country wanted to see for Independence Day.

But there's some real questions about gun violence, gang violence in Chicago and something that's been going on for quite a long time. And it doesn't matter how many guns they take off the street. In fact, it seems like since Friday, every hour they've been able to pull another illegal gun off the streets but still 47 people shot in the last few days and, of course, we heard the numbers could go up as they continue to do the tallies. But you could hear the frustration in the superintendent's voice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUPERINTENDENT GARRY MCCARTHY, CHICAGO POLICE: We need some help here, folks. We have to fix this broken system. If you think that putting more cops on the street would make a difference, then take a look at the fact that we put a third more manpower on the street for this weekend. What's the result? We're getting more guns. Well, that's great. It's not stopping the violence and it's not going to stop the violence until criminals are held accountable and something is done to stem the flow of these guns into our city.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

YOUNG: Look, the numbers are actually down from last Fourth of July. Sixty-seven people were shot last year during the same time period and now people are focused on what happened here, that young man's life, that's something that everyone's kind of looking at and kind of pointing to, is this going to be the moment of change? How many times has this happened before? How many times have people stood on a corner and said, look, we're not going to have any more gun violence. But that message doesn't reach out there to the streets. And we actually heard the superintendent talk about the idea that sometimes gang members worry more about losing their gun than they do about getting arrested.

[12:25:03] BANFIELD: That's remarkable. And it is amazing, though, Ryan, as you said, the numbers are down from last year but they are just way too high. Ryan Young reporting for us live in Chicago.

And if this conversation sounds the least bit familiar, it should because we had this same conversation last year and Liz Dozier was our guest. She's the outgoing principal at Fenger High School in Chicago and she was featured in CNN's acclaimed documentary series "Chicagoland."

It's good to see you again, Liz. I wish it weren't under these circumstances. Things seem to have momentum when we spoke last year. Getting those programs into the schools. Getting at these, you know, kids while they're kids. It just all seemed liked it -- it had so much promise. Am I wrong when I see these numbers this weekend to think it's not working?

LIZ DOZIER, PRINCIPAL, FENGER HIGH SCHOOL: No, I think it is working in some ways. I mean we have to take a look at where we were last summer when we had this same conversation and we've seen the numbers have gone down in terms of the number of shootings, violence, incidents. I think that there is far more work to be done. It's the same conversation on that level that we talked about last year, thinking about how do we provide additional jobs, additional programs and funding for our young people.

BANFIELD: So the superintendent said something that I think really stood out, Liz, and it was that criminals don't feel the repercussions of the justice system. And that really sort of stung. And I'm trying to figure out if they're not feeling the repercussions from the justice system and getting a gun every minute off the street isn't working, where is the -- where is the load? Where do we need to really start focusing and concentrating, earlier in schools, later, you know, stronger incarceration? I'm really not sure what he meant by that.

DOZIER: Yes. So I think where we really need to focus our energy is what's happening in a state legislature. What is happening with the ease and access of guns that are flowing into and out of our community on a daily basis. I think that's point number one.

I think, two, we've got to think about what's happening within our communities. How are we, as a community, really taking ownership and responsibility for what's happening in our community? Unfortunately, there's this -- I'm sure we've all heard of it, the no-snitch rule where people won't speak up and won't tell the truth about what's happen. And so I think we have got to get real about what's happening in our communities and voice that. Over 3,000 guns have been confiscated and taken off the street since the beginning of the year, but, unfortunately, there's still more work that needs to be done.

BANFIELD: And so where do you see that work being best effectuated? You know, if we're talking about trying to stanch the flow of guns coming into Chicago, where does that happen? Does that happen with community work? Does that happen with increased policing? You just heard the superintendent say they put a third more police out there, violence continues.

DOZIER: Yes. I think it's a little -- it's a little bit of everything. It's like a puzzle. I think we can't focus on one thing. There's some -- obviously -- obvious key things need to happen within the state legislature that need to happen within the community in term of speaking up for what we know is going on. But it's a puzzle piece. It's not one thing. It's thinking about education, how are we continuing to support something like One Summer Chicago or a fantastic program that took root here over the last few years that provides youth with job training. It provides them with mentorship. Those types of things. So it's really looking at it from a multifaceted perspective and digging in and not expecting a one size fits all solution.

BANFIELD: So I want to ask you, there was this was really poignant moment when I watched that documentary where you -- you sort of felt like you lost one of your flock members. And when I heard this father of Amari Brown is not cooperating with the police in the investigation of the murder of his own baby, it made me question, have we lost a generation? I mean are there some -- are we going to just sort of have to come to the realization that there is an entire generation out there that cannot be changed, that cannot be reached, they just have to age and die?

DOZIER: Oh, no, absolutely not. That's so not true. There's so much hope and promise and possibility within our communities and especially within our young people. I think it's our job as the adults within the -- within our communities to really stand up for what we believe in. I think this gentleman does not represent the majority of Chicagoans and does not represent the majority of the people in our community and I think we can't conflate those two and think that this represents everyone. It doesn't. There are phenomenal Chicagoans in this city who care about what happens.

BANFIELD: But not the ones who are behind the barrels of those 47 shootings this weekend. That's what I'm talking about.

DOZIER: Yes.

BANFIELD: These numbers are not being perpetrated by the majority of Chicagoans. They're being perpetrated by people I would guess are very like Amari Brown's dad.

[12:29:54] DOZIER: Yes. But it's true. But we have to think about what is the root of that? How do you get to be like Amari Brown's dad? How do you get to 45 arrests? What has happened at the core and at the root of that and I think that's why it's so important that we invest within our schools and we invest within our communities. Someone doesn't pop up like that.