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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Confederate Flag Comes Down in SC; Cemetery Flags; Trump on RNC and Immigration. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired July 09, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[12:00:39] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

10:00 a.m. tomorrow Eastern Time, that is when a leftover symbol from the Civil War, the confederate battle flag, is set to vanish from the grounds of a state capital. The flag will still fly over a few places in the United States, like some Civil War historic sites, also in the corner of the Mississippi state flag, and, of course, on the t-shirts and bumper stickers of people who will not let go of that now what's become an outdated symbol of the south.

But where you will not see it after 10:00 tomorrow morning is flapping on a pole in the shadow of the South Carolina state capital. Its time is officially over. And state lawmakers finally voted to get rid of it.

Here is what it took. A heated and passionate debate last night that really lasted well past midnight in Columbia. House members voting 94- 20 in favor of bringing that flag down and giving it a brand-new home in a museum or some other place where relics are stored.

What happens next? A signature is needed from governor, Nikki Haley, and that is set to happen at 4:00, that's just less than four hours from now.

CNN's Nick Valencia is in the capital, Columbia, South Carolina.

So give me a sense of the feeling there among lawmakers and other people that you come across on the street.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There's a lot of raw emotion here, Ashleigh. You were talking about House Representative Jenny Horne. She was on our air a little while ago and, you know, I've been speaking to her and she still gets teared up when she thinks about what a monumental day this is, what a historic day this is.

It took 13 hours of debate among those house lawmakers. At times very emotional, sometimes contentious. But when they finally voted, it was after 1:00 a.m. to permanently remove the confederate flag that you see flying behind me, a flag that has been on the state grounds since 1961. Right here behind me it's been at that confederate memorial in front of the steps of the state capital since 2000. A lot of people reacting, including groups like the NAACP, the local

chapter here. They released a statement to CNN and other media outlets. I'll read part of that, saying, "today, the South Carolina legislature did the right thing, one that is profoundly American, by taking down the confederate battle flag. I applaud South Carolina state senators, members of the house of representatives, and Governor Nikki Haley for their commitment and support to the citizens of South Carolina and the citizens of this country."

We expect Nikki Haley to sign this legislation and make this all official at 4:00 p.m. Part of the joint resolution compromise is that the flag's going to come down within 24 hours. So 10:00 a.m. we'll see it gone forever. What happens next is that flag will make its way a few blocks away from here to the Confederate Relic Museum where it will stay.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: And that's a final? It is the Confederate Relic Museum, Nick? That's what they've made the decision on?

VALENCIA: That's right, and that's part of the joint resolution proposed by Senator Pickens. It's been part of the deal the whole time. If this was going to become official, that was going to be the next official process. Some people I have been speaking to said that the removal of the flag was going to be unceremonious but now we understand that there will be an event here behind me at 10:00 a.m. for that flag to finally come down.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Boy, they're having to do all of this real quick, to say the very least. Nick Valencia, thank you for that, live in Columbia.

In the meantime in Washington, GOP House members are pulling their support for a bill that would have upheld the right to display confederate flags in some cemeteries. I want to bring in CNN's Athena Jones, who is following this story closely.

Athena, the story sort of came out of nowhere. It seemed to develop very late and then throughout the night get a lot of traction. And by this morning, there's action. Can you explain exactly what's happened?

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Ashleigh.

Well, this is remarkable how quickly the House Republican leadership moved on this. Now, the bill in question is actually the annual spending bill funding the Interior Department. It was -- attached to it were several amendments that would limit the display of the confederate flag in National Park Service run facilities. So you can't sell it -- sell the merchandise in stores. You wouldn't be able to display it at cemeteries run by the National Park Service.

Well, late last night, a Republican offered another amendment that would undermine those two measures that passed. It would allow the confederate flag to be displayed at cemeteries. So this, of course, has caused a lot of consternation among Democrats who have been blasting the Republican move. So House leadership decided to pull that bill, that entire bill, because they didn't want to see this embarrassing debate about the confederate flag continue at the same day that, of course, the house, the state in South Carolina is removing the flag.

[12:05:27] Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Very odd timing indeed and odd action.

All right, Athena Jones live for us in D.C., thank you for that.

Let's go back down south again to South Carolina because so much has happened leading up to this historic vote to remove the confederate flag from the state grounds. Late last night, while most of us across the country were winding down our days and probably heading off to bed, if not already asleep, a South Carolina state representative, a name you may not have known until today, she's a Republican and she's a descendent of Confederate President Jefferson Davis. Well, she just sidled right up to the podium and then she did something that had jaws dropping. She poured out her heart. For her, this rebel flag issue is deeply personal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNY HORNE (R), SOUTH CAROLINA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: Let me tell you, I attended the funeral of Senator Clementa Pinckney and the people of Charleston deserve immediate and swift removal of that flag from this grounds. We can save for another day where this flag needs to go, where the -- which flag needs to fly or where it needs to fly or what museum it needs to be in, but the immediate issue, as far as I'm concerned as a member of the Charleston delegation, and speaking on behalf of the people in Charleston, this flag offends my friend Mia McCloud (ph), my friend John King (ph), my friend Reverend Beil (ph). I cannot believe that we do not have the heart in this body to do something meaningful such as take a symbol of hate off these grounds on Friday!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: The impassioned Representative Jenny Horne. Well, Friday is exactly what that representative is going to get. The flag is coming down. But then what? What about that relic museum? What happens to that confederate memorial that's been flying over that part of the grounds? And more importantly, what changes will this ultimately bring about? I'm going to ask a lawmaker who's been in the thick of the debate. He's joining me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:11:18] BANFIELD: It is this hour's breaking news here on CNN. We now know exactly when the confederate battle flag will come down permanently from a flag pole next to the South Carolina statehouse, tomorrow morning, 10:00 a.m. And there is something official planned, we just don't know what yet. But there's something else very important that has to happen first. In

just a couple of hours, the governor of South Carolina is going to put her pen to the bill that ends the state's policy of flying the rebel flag next to that capital building. It makes official the decision that was overwhelmingly approved last night in a very late night session.

This man was there and he voted yes to immediately take down the flag. His name is State Representative Cezar McKnight.

Representative, thank you so much for being with us today.

You tweeted out the words, "the flag comes down," with a whole bunch of extra characters next to it. That "it's a great day in South Carolina." I can only imagine your mood, but I certainly wasn't in the room when this happened. Can you just take me there as a fellow representative of Jenny Horne, not only when she made that impassioned speech, but then when the ultimate vote came down, 94-20.

CEZAR MCKNIGHT (D), SOUTH CAROLINA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: Well, when Jenny made her speech, it touched everyone in the room. Jenny's a very intelligent person. She's a great trial lawyer. But she doesn't say much -- the time -- I've been in this house of representatives for a year now, and she didn't take to the well much to make a speech. So when she finally went on the floor of the house to speak the way that she did about taking the flag down, every year and every eye was on her. And I think it was her actions, her words and the actions of Russell Ott (ph) with his resolution that were -- that those were the two things that were able to turn the tide and make taking the flag down a real possibility as we saw at 1:00 last night.

BANFIELD: You completely shocked me because, I'm going to be honest with you, I don't follow South Carolina house politics very often, so I haven't watched that well very often, but I assumed that that woman spent a lot of time, because she was pretty darn good at this. And if that was extemporaneous, that's one of the best extemporaneous I've ever seen.

Let me ask you a little bit about tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. This is all on the fly. It happened so fast. Do you know what's in store for 10:00 a.m.? Will there be much ado, a lot of hoopla, a lot of flair? Are there last minute organizations getting together to be a part of this coming down ceremony or is it just going to happen quietly?

MCKNIGHT: From what I understand, it's going to happen rather quietly. I don't think there will be a lot of pomp and circumstance, and that's completely different than when it went up in 2000 when they had confederate re-enactors come out and have a full ceremony in which they put the flag up. I anticipate this will be a quiet ceremony, if a ceremony at all.

I know that today at 4:00, when the governor signs the bill, there have been members of the families of the victims from the kill -- from the murders in Charleston that have been invited. I'm certain that Senator Pinckney's family has been invited. Whether or not they attend, I do not know. But I think you will have more ceremony today with the signing than you will tomorrow when they remove the flag.

BANFIELD: So Representative McKnight, I'm just looking behind you and you are framed equally with two flags over either of your shoulders. I'm curious to know your thoughts about -- look, there are -- there are plenty of people in the state and elsewhere in the country who do look at the flag and see other attributions to it and not racism, but is there any place that you can think of that is appropriate for that flag to fly, say the graves of confederate soldiers or any other sort of memorial place where you think it would be appropriate for that flag?

[12:15:04] MCKNIGHT: The appropriate place for the confederate battle banner is the Confederate Relic Room that we have, which is a few blocks away. It's in that room where we store all of our artifacts, old weapons, and other historical items from the Civil War. I think that's the appropriate place for it. And beyond that, if a private citizen chooses to fly the flag on their property, they have the right to do so. This is America and you have the right to free speech and the freedom of expression. However, when it comes to taxpayers' money, when it comes to the statehouse grounds, the only flags that we need to display are that of the United States and the flag of the state of South Carolina. Everything else is a symbol of division and we don't need it on the statehouse grounds.

BANFIELD: Representative Cezar McKnight, thank you for taking the time to speak with us today. I appreciate it.

MCKNIGHT: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Coming up next, Donald Trump has been tweeting up a storm after that big phone call from the chairman of the Republican Party. Not to mention he had quite the fiery interview with our Anderson Cooper last night. There's a lot to talk about, happening next.

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BANFIELD: Well, Donald Trump is at it again, taking bad press and meeting it head-on. This time he is denying that the head of the Republican Party rang him up to tell him to dial it down when it comes to immigration. This is what Donald Trump tweeted just a short time ago, "totally false reporting on my call with Reince Priebus. He called me, ten minutes, said I hit a nerve. Doing well. End." Donald Trump's tweet.

[12:20:04] For his part, the RNC chairman, Reince Priebus, called Donald Trump yesterday, sources tell CNN, and reportedly asked that presidential candidate to tone down the inflammatory remarks about undocumented immigrants, worried that it could hurt the Republican Party.

As the Republican Party and Trump go back and forth, the billionaire businessman is standing by his derogatory comments about who's crossing the border and what they're up to when they do. Listen to what he told our Anderson Cooper last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ANDERSON COOPER, ANCHOR, CNN'S "AC 360": You talk about their reports. I got to look at a bunch of studies here that say there's actually no correlation between illegal immigration and crime and that, in fact --

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Oh, come on. Come on.

COOPER: Immigrants actually commit crimes at a lower number.

TRUMP: Anderson, you're not a baby. OK, you're not a baby.

COOPER: I'm not saying there's not a lot of individual cases --

TRUMP: Illegal immigrants coming in are causing tremendous problems, in terms of crime, in terms of murder, in terms of rape, in terms of lots of other things.

COOPER: Let me give you two studies. Northwestern University, cited by "The Washington Post," says essentially no correlation between illegal immigration and violent crime. Pew Research Center, using figures from the University of Massachusetts, found, quote, "the crime rate among first generation immigrants, those who came to this country from somewhere else, significantly lower than the overall crime rate than that of the second generation."

TRUMP: Hey, listen, if somebody's an illegal immigrant, they shouldn't be here at all. There shouldn't be any crime. They're not supposed to be in our country. They're supposed to be -- and I'm not just talking Mexico. They're coming --

COOPER: But -- but -- but --

TRUMP: Excuse me, they're coming from all over the world. Even if the studies were correct, I'm not talking about correlation. When you have illegal immigrants coming in, if they commit crime, they're not supposed to be here.

COOPER: In that article it says it's corrupt officials, it's traffickers, it's gangs and other migrants.

TRUMP: Sure, whatever it is. Whatever it is.

COOPER: Inside Mexico.

TRUMP: But as I said before, it's called rape. It is rape. And it's happening. And it's a shame. And it's horrible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Well, I can attest firsthand reporting that Anderson Cooper is not a child. I think he's a little older than I am. And I will attest that Joe Johns is not a child either. He's our senior Washington correspondent.

So I want to tap you for some truth telling here and some fact checking, if I can, Joe Johns. Is Donald Trump telling the truth when he goes on about his correlations between illegal immigration and crime, and then also that whole Priebus thing that just developed where he says, that's not at all what the phone call was about?

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Yes, OK, let's start with the phone call.

BANFIELD: OK.

JOHNS: The back story here is that the Republican Party, especially since the presidential cycle of 2012, Ashleigh, has been trying to make inroads to Latino voters. And the overarching concern is that Trump's comments are hurting as opposed to helping. The RNC actually did a study that's been described publicly as an autopsy of the last presidential election and one of the biggest takeaways was that the Republican candidates needed to change how they talk about the immigration issue. Mitt Romney only got something like 27 percent of the Hispanic vote and, for the record, Romney's already said Trump's comments have hurt the GOP.

So Reince Priebus has to be careful because Trump's running second in the polls, in some places around 12 percent of the vote. So this suggests there is a segment of the electorate who basically embraces what he is saying, or at least the narrative that Trump is a straight talker in politics.

So you have the latest statement coming out of the RNC communication shop offering a little more context saying, "Chairman Priebus often speaks privately with candidates seeking the nomination." The statement says, "he did have a respectful conversation with Trump on Wednesday," and that "they discussed multiple comments including comments on immigration." So, they're being careful with this, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: OK, so back to the whole immigration story.

JOHNS: Right.

BANFIELD: About the numbers, because if there's one thing he cited in the interview with Anderson, it was that there are more illegal immigrants in this country than ever before coming over the border and already here. Those are two pretty strident comments when there are studies and facts that seem to really defy that.

JOHNS: Yes. Yes. And I think Anderson really hit the nail on the head. He was very prepared there with a bunch of different studies. I mean Trump is great at telling his version of the truth. He's a really good self-promoter. We have a sound bite. Do you want to listen?

BANFIELD: Have a go.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: When you talk about focusing on the criminals, deporting people, there -- more people have been deported under Obama than any other president previously.

TRUMP: And more people are coming in under Obama by far than more president ever. There's never been an entrance like this. And they walking in -- they're walking right past our patrols. And the patrols are told not to do anything.

COOPER: But actually arrests on the border have gone up significantly.

TRUMP: I can just say this, more people are in this country right now illegally than ever before. I will build a better wall and I'll build it for cheaper and Mexico will pay.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: OK, so, as far as immigration goes, and it's pretty clear Trump has been fact checked multiple times, statistics show first-generation immigrants, the people who came here from other countries during their lifetimes are less likely to commit crimes than the people who were born here. And there are even some studies suggesting that people who came here illegally are less likely to commit crimes simply because they don't want to get into trouble and get deported again. So a lot of the studies out there really defy what it is that Trump is saying here, Ashleigh.

[12:25:29] BANFIELD: Oh, and then, Joe, there was that whole thing about the numbers of illegal immigrants declining in this country from a peak in 2007. So that's sort of important to, you know, to add to that conversation as well.

JOHNS: Yes. Absolutely.

BANFIELD: Joe Johns, thank you. Nice to see you.

JOHNS: You bet.

BANFIELD: Nice to see you've grown up. Thank you.

I want to make sure you're tuning in to next hour because Anderson Cooper is going to talk about his interview with Donald Trump and he'll also have part two of that interview tonight at 8:00 Eastern Time. And as always, you can find the best coverage for the race for the 2016 White House at cnnpolitics.com.

Now to the release of Bill Cosby's 2005 deposition. If you thought what he said about Quaaludes and women and sex was bad, there could be so much more that is buried in a vault. We'll explain.

Also, the 2008 case that could force Bill Cosby to answer questions in open court under oath with a judge. That stuff's tough to get around. The attorney for one of the accusers in the case joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:30:07] BANFIELD: If Bill Cosby thought that parts of his 2005 deposition being released was embarrassing