Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Coverage From South Carolina While Preparing for Confederate Flag Removal. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired July 10, 2015 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:31:03] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. NIKKI HALEY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: The Confederate flag is coming off the grounds of the South Carolina state house.

CROWD: Take it down. Take it down.

JENNY HORNE, SOUTH CAROLINA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: Take a symbol of hate off these grounds on Friday!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nine amazing people that forever changed South Carolina's history.

BILL CLINTON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: I almost cried when I saw that picture of the South Carolina legislature yesterday with the Republicans and the Democrats and the African-Americans and the white people embracing each other.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is really the beginning of the healing for South Carolina.

HALEY: But 22 days ago, I didn't know that I would ever be able to say this again, but today I am very proud to say that it is a great day in South Carolina.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone, from South Carolina. I'm standing here at the State House grounds really right in front of the State House grounds where this Confederate flag will come down in less than 30 minutes. It has been standing here since 1961 and today is an historic day. It is July 10, 2015.

And as I have been asking here all morning on CNN, where were you on this day? Will you remember where you were on this day, an historic day that for many means a symbol of hate will be removed from the state capital of South Carolina.

There are people who have been gathering here all morning. Hundreds if not thousands of people gathering all around me. People gathering on the steps - right now on the steps of the capital. I want to take you there so you can see, this is lawmakers who have gathered here. They were supposed to gather in about 15 minutes. They have decided to start early. They are going to take part in this ceremony for as much as they can standing there. The governor, of course, Nikki Haley, will be presiding over the ceremony, as well as two former governors and an elder from the AME Church in Charleston, South Carolina.

Again, a very historic day. I should say a very sober moment here. Not a sad moment, but a sober moment. And I want to bring in now my colleague Alina Machado, who is at the ceremony now - OK - the ceremony now and we'll talk to her.

But I want to talk to - bring in, before we go to Alina, I want to bring in Bakari Sellers, who is a state representative here, a former state representative, and also a friend of the Reverend Clementa Pinckney, who was a state representative -

BAKARI SELLERS, FORMER S.C. STATE REPRESENTATIVE: State senator.

LEMON: State senator, excuse me, who's a state senator here who lost his life sadly in that massacre in the AME Church.

I'm wondering what this moment means to you as a friend and as a former lawmaker here.

SELLERS: Well, those nine souls lived their life purposefully. And they paid the ultimate price. But they gave up their life so that we could all come together. And I think that Clementa and those other eight souls are always going to be remembered for not just the flag coming down, but everything you see around you.

I just saw a little young white girl named Jenny, who just ran up and said, I saw you on CNN, and gave me a big hug. And she's out here. She took the day off from summer camp to come out here and watch the flag come down.

So it's an amazing day. It really - it really fills my heart with so much joy because when you turn on the news or read the newspapers, there's always something bad happening.

LEMON: Yes.

SELLERS: But finally the world is looking at South Carolina for something positive.

LEMON: Yes.

SELLERS: And in the words of the great poet Flo Rida, it's going down for real today. So -

LEMON: Wait, say that again. I missed -

SELLERS: The great American poet Flo Rida, it's going down for real. We are - we are excited about today. We really are. So -

LEMON: Yes. I just - it just got real. But, and I have to say, you said you were talking to some people out here. People have been coming up to me since I've been here wanting, you know, to say hello -

SELLERS: Of course.

LEMON: And thanking us for being in South Carolina.

SELLERS: Yes.

LEMON: And welcoming us to South Carolina. And some of the family members of those who died in the church who are e-mailing me this morning asking, where are you? They just want to come over and they say, Don, I want to come over and hug your neck. That's the kind of mood that's happening here.

[09:35:07] SELLERS: And I - and I - and I challenged you before. I said, Don, I don't want to see you anymore when we're talking about death and misery.

LEMON: Right. Right.

SELLERS: Today we're here and we're celebrating. We're joyous. This is what our country was founded on.

LEMON: Yes.

SELLERS: This is what our forefathers believed. This is why - this is why Rosa sat and Martin marched so that we could have events like this and that all people could come together. Although everybody may not be on the same team, at least we're here in a peaceful, joyous fashion.

LEMON: And you can hear, there are helicopters overhead. There are thousands of people who are gathering. My colleague, Alina Machado, is somewhere in that - in the crowd very near to where this ceremony is going to happen and she joins us by phone.

Alina, what are you seeing?

ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): You know, it's - it's - I'm about as close as you can get to the Confederate battle flag that's going to be removed in less than 30 minutes at this point. And what I'm seeing is just a sea of people. I mean there's hundreds of people here gathered to witness this event.

I am seeing mostly people who are favoring the removal of this flag, but I have seen a couple of people in the crowd who are holding Confederate flags. You know, as we know, this has been a very divisive issue. There's been people who oppose what's going to happen today. But the overwhelming majority of the people we've spoken to say this has been a long time coming.

I spoke with a state legislator yesterday who's been here at the house since the '90s. And she was here when the flag was remove from the capital dome to its current spot. And she told me, she said, this is something that I never thought I was going to see in my lifetime and I can't believe and I'm - you know, that it's happening now. And I'm just so thankful that it is.

Don.

LEMON: Yes. All right, Alina, I want you to stand by because we'll be coming back to you.

But I want to get now to Andre Duncan. Myra Thompson was his aunt. He's a nephew of Myra Thompson. And she lost her life in the AME shooting.

Andre, I'm wondering what this moment means to you and your family.

ANDRE DUNCAN, NEPHEW OF CHURCH SHOOTING VICTIM MYRA THOMPSON: It's - it's - it's huge, you know. It's a hateful symbol and I'm glad it's coming down. I thought it would never ever, in my 37 years, you know, come down. That would - that would be the last thing that I could think of that would happen in the state of South Carolina.

LEMON: What do you think Myra would think of this moment?

DUNCAN: She would love it. The fact that we're out here, everybody's together, the community is coming together, the church family is doing well. I think she would love it.

LEMON: Yes. You know, everyone says this is just a moment. That it's just really, you know, a symbol that is coming down. It is part of the symptom. It's really not the entire problem here. South Carolina and the United States, but specifically what you can speak on is South Carolina, there are bigger issues that being a citizen here that you know that must be dealt with.

DUNCAN: Oh, yes. Don, it's - it's a hopeful sign that this symbol is coming down. But that white supremacist didn't use a flag to kill the Emanuel Nine, he used a gun.

LEMON: Yes. For the past 22, 23 days, and, you know, this - you having to deal with this grief and then, of course, this whole, you know, uproar about the flag, what has that been like living here and also being a part of it, being a family member of someone who's involved?

DUNCAN: It's been tough. But, you know, the outcome is going to be good. So, you know, everybody - like I said before, everybody here is together and that's - that's what I wanted to see. You know, that's - I enjoy seeing that. I enjoy seeing people fight for their community. A lot of people are standing up who were silent before. And that's - that's what it's about, you know, a community come together. You know, sometimes you've got to - even though you believe in certain things, you've got to give the people what they want, you know? You might - you believe in confederacy, but if the majority of the people don't believe in it, just take it down.

LEMON: You know, I sat yesterday and spoke with Clementa Pinckney, some of his very good friends. And they say sometimes it's been too much to even pay attention to what's going on in the news. They are reading the newspaper. It's just been too overwhelming. Have you felt that at all?

DUNCAN: I did. I didn't look at the news. I didn't read newspapers. You know, I consoled family. I stayed close to my family members and friend. You know, I just couldn't do it. you know, Congress - Congress needs to expand Brady background checks. You know, those background checks are going to save lives. And that's - that's what we need to do. We need to push Congress to expand those background checks and give those guys who want to buy guns online and at the gun shows a harder time to buy a gun because we're getting guns in the wrong hand.

[09:40:08] LEMON: Yes. And, you know, I - it's - you bring up a very good point, Andre, because people say that this flag is a symbol of hate to some. But also a symbol of hate is a person who should not be carrying a gun. People believe in the Second Amendment. People believe in the right to bear arms. But someone who should not have a gun, that is a symbol of hate as well, especially in light of nine people losing their lives from someone who clearly should not have had a gun.

DUNCAN: I agree.

LEMON: Andre, thank you. I want you to stand by. I want our correspondents to stand by and our viewers at home to stand by as well.

It is a very emotional day here in South Carolina and maybe across the country, especially for sons and daughters of the south. Many people like myself who grew up and this flag was a constant daily reminder of slavery, of Jim Crow, of hate. It's going to be a moment in just - in just a short time from now, just about 15 minutes, to watch this relic really of the past go into what it - where it should be, a relic room. So we're going to be live here from the steps of the state capital in South Carolina and we'll continue our breaking news coverage of the removal of the battle flag, the Confederate flag, from the State House grounds. Our coverage continues after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:46:01] DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Exactly what it should be, a relic. It will go into the relic room, into a museum where people, if they care to view it, can go and view it. But it doesn't have to be in people's faces every single day when they walk here or pass the State House or pass the state Capitol.

I want to bring in now James McLawhorn who has been fighting for this flag to come down. He is the president of the Columbia Urban League. And also my colleague Van Jones joins me as well.

But to you first, what does this day mean to you?

JAMES MCLAWHORN, PRESIDENT, COLUMBIA URBAN LEAGUE: This is a blessed day for us. 15 years ago we mobilized over 60,000 people. We came here by faith under the leadership of Dr. David Swinton. We had a coalition of faith, community and civic organizations that came out because we wanted this flag removed. This flag has had a negative averse impact on the aspirations and the expectations of South Carolina, particularly African-American people.

LEMOND: You know everybody doesn't see it that way. It's a symbol of pride, my history, my family pride, my loved ones, great great grandfathers who fought in the war.

MCLAWHORN: And I understand that, but the state capitol is not a place for that. The state capitol is supported by all citizens. If you want your heritage and your pride somewhere, put it on your personal property, put it in a museum. And I think that's the best place for it to be. I think the concern -- no one is challenging their heritage perspective, what we're challenging is that we don't want this symbol, this symbol on the State House grounds that have been used to terrorize and intimidate people for years.

LEMON: If people didn't realize how big of a deal this is, you know, I've heard some people say, you know, it's just ceremonial, a big deal is being made about this, there are many more things to accomplish. But when you look, there are thousands of people who are out here. This place has sort of become a touchstone here for what needs to be done, not only to correct injustices in the South, but really around the country today. I think this is -- this is going to set a mark. This will be the beginning of that, at least a starting point.

MCLAWHORN: Yes, I think so. This flag has promoted a culture of low expectations, a culture of I can't be all I want the to be. Quite often you hear South Carolinians, particularly African-American, saying I need to leave South Carolina because I'm not going to ever realize my goals and aspirations by being in South Carolina, I'm going to be just slowed down, I'm going to be stuck

LEMON: Yes.

MCLAWHORN: So, not this provides encouragement. It sends a very positive message.

LEMON: Yes. You know, it's interesting that you - just as you said that, because that one of the reasons -- I grew up in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, really a little town called Port Allen, Louisiana, and then also Baker, and that was one of the reasons I left. I didn't think specifically about the flag, I just thought that my chances are limited as long as I stay in the South.

So I went north where I did have more opportunities, quite frankly. CNN's Van Jones joins me now. Van, and you know, Mr. McLawhorn brings up a very valid point that really just hit home with me. Many people do leave the South because they don't feel that they have the opportunities and this flag may be a representation, a symbol of that.

VAN JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you know, I've been sitting here kind of feeling emotional and thinking about my father who passed away a few years ago, thinking about my grandfather. You know, these were very, very strong men, but whenever a truck would pass with that Confederate flag in the back, they would get very tense.

I remember being a child. I loved the "Dukes of Hazzard." I wanted that "Dukes of Hazzard" little truck - that little car. It had a Rebel flag on it. My dad said we can't bring that flag into our house. That was my first heart break as a child realizing what that flag really meant.

And so, I don't think that people who are not from the South understand what it means to see that flag over, and over, and over again. Nobody's saying erase the history. In fact, we should go deeper in the history, but there are other hateful symbols. The Nazis had a hateful symbol. You don't have to fly that symbol to remind people of that everyday. ISIS has a flag.

[09:50:04] You don't fly hateful flags in people's faces everyday to say, well, we don't - we want to honor history. History is for museums. History, again, property, but let's create a situation where everybody can feel that they belong, that they're going to be respected. That flag has not been a respectful flag.

They say it's a battle flag. Who are you battling against? You're battling against Abraham Lincoln, you're battling against Harriet Tubman, you're battling against Frederick Douglass, you're battling against some of the best people in America. It was one of the bloodiest wars in human history to preserve slavery. Why do you have to have that symbol flown in the face of people?

You know, I just know that if my father were here, my grandparents were here, they would have a little bit of relief today that maybe people understand all history does not have to be heralded in people's face on public property at the state capitols.

LEMON: You know, for people who don't really know history, Van, and Mr. McLawhorn, people would think that this flag went up on the capitol grounds right after the Civil War, which is, indeed, not the truth. This flag went up in 1961 and it was really, you know, sort of a thumb or a finger, if you will, to the progress that was being made during the Civil Rights Movement. That's why this flag really went up. And so, if you don't know your history, you may think that history is being whitewashed by taking it down, but that's not true, Van Jones.

JONES: No, it was a gesture of defiance against Dr. King. It was a gesture of defiance against Civil Rights. It was a gesture of defiance to say Brown versus Board of Education, the Supreme Court. You can't tell us what to do, we're going to hold onto segregation forever. That's what it was for.

And so, for somebody to say, oh, it's about my heritage 150 years ago, well, for 100 years it wasn't up there. Why did they put it up? They put it up because they once again wanted to say we do not believe you are equal as African-Americans, and nobody in America embraces those views so we should not embrace the flag as a public symbol.

You can have it in a museum, but not a public symbol. Why would you celebrate a symbol like that?

LEMON: Yes, and I wanted to tell our viewers, you can see there, there is a live -- we're looking at live pictures now from the Emanuel AME Church which is in Charleston, South Carolina, sadly the site of this horrific massacre that happened 23 days ago. And my colleague Charles Blow, op-ed columnist and CNN contributor joins me now.

We cannot forget, Charles, the nine people who lost their lives in this church and what's really facilitated this happening this morning.

CHARLES BLOW, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Absolutely not. I mean, I think it's really important to remember that, you know, there's blood spilled and that is the kind of genesis for this moment, that is the turning point for this moment. And you have to ask yourself, is that a requirement for you to kind of remember your morality? Is that what is required for us to say that this is a Rebel flag, but it's also a flag that a lot of people find incredibly offensive and have had to live with for 50 years in the state of South Carolina, but also across the South.

You know, this flag is embedded in the state flags of other states, and, you know, it is flown on state property in other states. And these are places where, you know, that is still the black belt of this country. The black belt is composed of the counties with the most African-American -- the highest percentage of African-American populations. That stretches from West Texas all the way up into the Carolinas. And all across that region you still have these vestiges of a Civil War that was fought largely about subjugation of black people, and having to be reminded of that constantly is really incredible, and then to require the spilling of the blood of nine innocent people to make people reorient themselves to say that this kind of -- this iconography of hatred and subjugation cannot be state-sponsored, cannot be on state ground, is really extraordinary.

I mean, part of me wants to say congratulations and applause. There's another part of me that finds this grating, that finds this whole - the opera of this ceremony to bring it down to be slightly grating in and of itself. There is a stain in the victory.

LEMON: I'm with you. Yes, I'm a bit torn about it because there's a part of me that, you know, doesn't give a damn about this flag, that this flag for me is a motivator to do better and to be better, but then the other part does care because, as you said, it's something that is in your face every single day for people who have to pass this, and it's this iconic thing for many people.

[09:54:59] And I know this is a stark example, but I discussed this with a number of people yesterday, some of my Jewish friends, and I said to them, I said what if someone was carrying a swastika or a flag and they had it displayed on their license plate or they had it on their cars or put it on their homes, how would that make you feel as a person who is of the Jewish faith? How would that make you feel? And I think that is how African-Americans feel when they see that. And immediately I think, Charles or Van, it makes it relatable to people, and they go, hmm, I wouldn't like that. I would take -- that would give me pause.

BLOW: that is the sting of it on the - in a personal level where you shouldn't want to cause that sort of kind of psychic damage and pain to another human being in a personal level, but then amplify it, move it up one step and say, what if it is being flown on the grounds of the state capitol where I pay taxes, right? This is not a person, another citizen choosing to exercise their constitutional right to be offensive. That is their right. I may disagree with you, but I will defend your right to express yourself. When I'm paying taxes to the state and the state itself has sanctioned, you know, this sort of offense, then that ratchets things up another level.

LEMON: Right. Van Jones.

JONES: Yes. You know, I think for me, when you talk about this need for history, I want to just say something to our sisters and brothers who may be white, who may be Southerners, who may feel this is once again America ganging up on the South, once again America not understanding.

Listen, I am a Southerner. I understand. Our region is put down. Our region is disrespected. It's the last acceptable bigotry in Hollywood to write into a script somebody who is stupid has a Southern accent. Nobody even blinks at that. So, I understand. But the thing is that we have an opportunity to bring the whole region together around different kinds of symbols, different kinds of iconography.

The South is, you know, a potential now for a tech renaissance. A lot of positive things are happening in the South, but as long as people can put that flag in people's face and use that as an excuse to commit murders and acts of terror, we're never going to be respected as a region. So, I just want to say, yes, the history can be respected, it can be understood, but this is not the way, and this symbol -- when you have people in Europe who are using this flag because they can't fly the swastika legally in Europe, they're now using this flag from our region in Europe to disrespect Jewish people and everyone else, it is time for us to get new symbols and really build a new South.

BLOW: Right, but make sure that we never confuse this...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Charles, I need to you stand by. I need to you stand by. I want to tell our - I want to welcome our viewers here in the United States and around the world, international viewers have joined us for this historic moment here in the United States in Columbia, South Carolina. And you can hear people now, they are applauding and they are -- have gathered here at the capitol. Some of the lawmakers here have gathered on the steps as well as family members of those who lost their lives at the AME Church - the Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, South Carolina, just three weeks ago.

Again, in just about two minutes, this flag will come down. It will be led by the governor of the state, Nikki Haley, who for , quite honestly, for a time did not stand up against this flag. She walked into the capitol and, you know, the flag was flying, but over the last couple of weeks, since the murders, really the massacre of those nine people, she has had a change of heart and she has led the charge to bring this flag down.

And as some of the lawmakers here have said, I don't always agree with the governor. I haven't agreed with her a lot in the past, but on this particular issue I am lock step and standing with her. It is July 10th, it is a historic moment, and you should remember where you were when this happened. And it's going to happen in just moments here.

And I'm joined by many of my CNN colleagues, some of the family members of those who lost their lives, and some of the lawmakers here as well in South Carolina. And I want to bring in now Carl Anderson, who is a representative and also part of the South Carolina Black Legislative Caucus.

And this is a day, I'm sure, Representative, that you have -- how long -- are you from -- originally from here?

REP. CARL ANDERSON, (D) SOUTH CAROLINA: Yes. I'm from South Carolina. I'm from Georgetown, South Carolina. I'm in the low country on the coast. But...

LEMON: How long have you been fighting for this (inaudible)?

ANDERSON: We have been fighting for this for the last 20 years.

LEMON: And you see this man behind you, someone just walked up and just said the South is under attack and he's carrying the Rebel flag. What do you think of that?

ANDERSON: Well, I think that he failed to realize what we're doing here today. We're taking this flag down. I marched in 2000. Bishop John Hurst Adams was the bishop of the AME Church in South Carolina.