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South Carolina Removes Rebel Flag From Statehouse; Aired 10- 10:30a ET
Aired July 10, 2015 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[10:00:02] DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: What do you think of that?
CARL ANDERSON (D), SOUTH CAROLINA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: Well, I think that he failed to realize what we're doing here today. We're taking this flag down. I marched in 2000.
LEMON: Right.
ANDERSON: Bishop John Hurst Adams was the bishop of the AME Church in South Carolina and we marched here in 2000. I was not a legislator then. I got elected in 2004. But we marched here in 2000, I mean, it was more people than you see out here today.
LEMON: Yes.
ANDERSON: And we set the precedent for them to take down the flag off of the dome. The flag came off of the dome, and it was placed on this pole by the monument. We have been fighting for 15 years since because that happened in 2000.
LEMON: And so for people to think it's just over the last 23 days, that this came here, this monumental quickness, it came with a quickness, it really didn't.
ANDERSON: No, it didn't. It didn't.
LEMON: Yes.
ANDERSON: We have been wrestling this for better than 20 years.
LEMON: So when you look around you here and you see -- I mean, there are thousands of people here.
ANDERSON: Yes.
LEMON: Did you expect this many people to come out today?
ANDERSON: I did not expect this many people to come out today. I'm just wondering who is working in the state of South Carolina today.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Yes.
ANDERSON: But -- LEMON: It's a holiday today.
ANDERSON: Evidently it is a great day in South Carolina. It's a new day in South Carolina. We need to leave here today when this flag comes down off of the dome saying it's a new day in South Carolina.
LEMON: Why is it new?
ANDERSON: It's new because something that we have wrestled for, for over 20 years, we can see that came into existence now. Listen, in 1962 I was 1 year old, and this flag -- really it was said that the flag would go up for the centennial. It would remain up for almost a year.
LEMON: Say that one more time.
ANDERSON: It was said --
LEMON: 1961. Right?
ANDERSON: 1962.
LEMON: '62.
ANDERSON: I was 1 year old. The agreement was for this flag to go up on the dome for the centennial.
LEMON: And it never came down.
ANDERSON: And it never came down.
LEMON: So -- and there are people who believe that this flag has been here since the civil war.
ANDERSON: No.
LEMON: No.
ANDERSON: 1962.
LEMON: And went up for the centennial.
ANDERSON: That's right. Went up --
LEMON: And since then --
ANDERSON: And the agreement was then that it would stay up for the rest of that year and come down, and it never came down until 2000 when it was taken down off the dome and then placed on this pole.
LEMON: Yes.
ANDERSON: And we fought then. What should have happened then, it should have went to where it's going to today. It should have went to the museum then, but we've been fighting for 15 years. And the reason I say today is a new day in South Carolina, after this flag comes down, the boycotts that we've had over the last 15 years, we have lost money in the state of South Carolina. We will be able to invite those people to come back to South Carolina, have your events here in South Carolina.
LEMON: There are many businesses who won't come here. There are athletes who won't come here.
ANDERSON: Right.
LEMON: I think the Williams sisters won't play here.
ANDERSON: Right.
LEMON: Because of that. And that's -- and now that you believe that that will open up, and as the governor said, and we have to be honest here. The governor wasn't always on this side.
ANDERSON: No, she wasn't.
LEMON: Yes. But now she is.
ANDERSON: No. We got elected the same time. We're classmates.
LEMON: Right.
ANDERSON: 2004, Nikki Haley and I got elected as representatives and then she got elected as a governor. She stepped forward and I applaud the governor. I stood with her when she announced that we would, you know, take the flag down. I stood with her on yesterday when she signed the bill because we've been fighting for this for years.
LEMON: Yes.
ANDERSON: And you could see it by the vote.
LEMON: Yes.
ANDERSON: We stayed up until the wee hours of the morning on Thursday, and we took the vote. The vote was 94-20.
LEMON: Yes.
ANDERSON: That tells you that, hey, there were people there that know that the flag needs to come down.
LEMON: And there's one flag behind us that a gentleman is waving here, as the cloud begins to roar.
ANDERSON: It's a new day. It's a new day.
LEMON: And that is the American flag.
ANDERSON: Yes.
LEMON: That everyone agrees if any flag is going to stand here -- and, OK, Governor Haley has come out. Now you see here. I believe she's wearing yellow. It's -- I'm looking at a small tiny monitor.
ANDERSON: We have a band of legislators and their spouses and everybody --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: So do -- you're here talking to us but otherwise you would be up on those steps.
ANDERSON: Yes. Yes.
LEMON: Right.
ANDERSON: My spouse is up there on the steps with them. You know, we have a large group that's here. It's 170 of us minus one.
LEMON: Yes.
ANDERSON: Senator Clementa Pinckney.
LEMON: Right.
ANDERSON: But, you know, we mourn his death and the other eight.
LEMON: Yes. And I want to bring in Bakari Sellers now.
ANDERSON: This is my friend.
LEMON: A friend of Clementa Pinckney and a former state representative is here as well.
ANDERSON: Hey, welcome, my superintendent.
LEMON: So he's -- yes, he's very excited. He should be very excited.
BAKARI SELLERS (D), FORMER SOUTH CAROLINA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: You have to understand, I mean, we've been through so much. It's the heroes and sheroes that we talk about all the time. It's the Modjeska Simkins and Septima Clark, it's the Jimmie Lee Jackson and Medgar Evers and Emmett Till, and today you've got have to add Clementa Pinckney to that list and today we have the flag that's coming down.
ANDERSON: Yes.
LEMON: Yes. And this flag right here, what do you -- this is the flag --
SELLERS: Well, that's the banner that we all -- that's the banner that we all --
[10:05:05] LEMON: Come up here, sir. Where are you from?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Greenwood, South Carolina.
LEMON: This gentleman joins us. You're from where?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Greenwood, South Carolina.
LEMON: And you're carrying -- do you believe that this is the only flag that should be --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the flag that unites us and that's the flag that's coming down that has, unfortunately, divided --
ANDERSON: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Divided a lot of people.
SELLERS: That's right.
ANDERSON: That's right.
LEMON: The American flag.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have respect for the people that honor that as their heritage but it's been used in other ways. It's been a symbolic of a lot of things that are negative and a lot of things that are part of the dark part of our country's history.
LEMON: When you -- I'm leaning close to you because I want the microphone to pick you up. When you see -- why did you come today?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have been here several days, sir.
LEMON: Why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To show support for the people that are here with me and because I think that it's time after 54 years that that flag comes down.
LEMON: When you look around, and you see the lawmakers up on the steps, and you see the thousands of people who are gathered here, what do you think?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Proud, proud, because this is a transitional moment in the history of South Carolina here today.
LEMON: Yes.
ANDERSON: That's right. That's right.
LEMON: Thank you, sir.
ANDERSON: We're happy to hear you say that and we thank you for coming two hours all the way from Greenwood, South Carolina.
LEMON: Thank you, sir.
SELLERS: Thank you, brother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Been here many days.
SELLERS: Thank you so much. ANDERSON: Yes.
LEMON: And there you go. That's the sentiment of what's happening here.
ANDERSON: That's right. It's a new day in South Carolina as I said. We just hope that after this flag comes down we can unite as the gentleman said.
LEMON: I'm going to pull you, I'm going to move your microphone up but keep talking. Go ahead.
ANDERSON: We need to come together. We need to unite in South Carolina. We saw what happened. Those nine persons at a bible study at Mother Emanuel AME Church lost their lives and we saw what this young man had on his Facebook page.
LEMON: OK. The ceremony is under way and I want to -- let's just pause for a moment and take a look.
[10:13:45] You know, I hate to break in here, Bakari, Representative Anderson, Van Jones, it's gone.
ANDERSON: Yes, it is.
LEMON: It's gone.
ANDERSON: It is gone. What a new day, yes.
LEMON: It's gone.
SELLERS: I think sometimes people have a hard time understanding why we're so joyous, but I mean that flag has divided this state, this country for so long.
LEMON: But for me it's tears of joy. People are -- I don't want to applaud right now. I want to feel the full moment right now.
SELLERS: This is history.
LEMON: I want to feel the emotion of this because it's been -- I'm not quite 54 years old, but for all of my life, almost 50 years on this earth, this flag has been up. People who call themselves friends in junior high school, high school, college, waved this flag around and they thought it was always so cool, it's a rebel flag, we're rebels, blah, blah, blah. It's not cool.
SELLERS: No, it's not.
LEMON: It's not. It doesn't celebrate any history except for a negative history.
SELLERS: When I'm able to one day have children and I have a beautiful stepdaughter Kai who is watching from Boca, but they don't have to grow up anymore under the auspices of that Confederate flag.
LEMON: Yes. Under the oppression of that flag.
SELLERS: And all it means. And all it means.
LEMON: Van Jones?
[10:15:00] VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. It's a very, very important moment. I think there's some things that you have to notice, first of all, how respectful this symbol was treated. The idea that people don't respect history. In fact, it was treated with much more respect, frankly, than the people who fly that flag often treat their fellow citizens. So it was a somber moment, it was handled beautifully. It was an emotional moment.
When that flag came down, the tears came down because I didn't even realize myself how painful it is to have to kind of suck it up when I go home to the south and see that flag. So when the flag came down, the tears came down. Hopefully some barriers can come down and some unity can come forward.
It's not just about the symbols of division, but the substance of division. We now have a chance to talk about it. The poor white southerners and poor black southerners have more in common than we know, and without that flag dividing us, maybe we'll find a way forward.
LEMON: Yes. And you're right, the tears did come down. We were all here crying and there were people who are laughing and we were laughing through the tears. Right?
ANDERSON: Yes, we were.
LEMON: And I didn't real identifies, Van, you're absolutely right. I had no idea that it would be -- I would be this emotional when this flag came down at 10:10.
SELLERS: Just think about the transition in South Carolina. We went from Walter Scott and we had to be resilient, and then we got another punch in the gut when Dylann Roof went into the church while they were praying and slaughtered nine people, and then today, I mean, finally we can breathe, we can sigh, we can cheer, we can do all of those.
ANDERSON: Yes. Come together. What were they singing back there? The old high school song?
SELLERS: Yes. Yes.
ANDERSON: We sang it in high school when we got victory over that team.
SELLERS: That's victory, man.
LEMON: Someone else who was singing it, but a little more eloquently than we are, is President Obama who just tweeted out, "South Carolina taking down the Confederate flag. A signal of goodwill and healing and a meaningful step towards a better future." It's not just -- Bakari, you were saying -- in South Carolina. It's
not just South Carolina. It's Louisiana, it's North Carolina, it's Virginia. You know, it's Arkansas, it's Alabama, it's Mississippi. It's all -- this oppressive flag flies all over the south every single day, and it will continue to fly in other places but it won't be up on this statehouse.
SELLERS: Well, the civil war is finally over. We retired the flag. We just got the notice in South Carolina.
LEMON: Yes. Yes.
SELLERS: We're very excited about that, but now, Don, the most important part from this is while we celebrate and enjoy the victory today, we have to remember that the journey still continues.
LEMON: Yes. I want to bring this to McLawhorn in here, because he's been saying -- but just come stand behind us. I know it's going to be odd on camera. Stand behind these two gentlemen that way so you can get -- but what does this moment mean for you?
JT MCLAWHORN JR., PRESIDENT AND CEO, COLUMBIA URBAN LEAGUE: This is evidence of faith.
ANDERSON: Yes.
MCLAWHORN: We've been on this journey for a very, very long time. I think what it's going to mean -- a young man told me, he's 75 years old. He said, you know, I have achieved a lot, I have contributed a lot to society, but because of that Confederate flag I would never be any more than a boy in South Carolina. Now we can be men.
ANDERSON: Men. That's right.
MCLAWHORN: Praise God.
ANDERSON: That's right.
SELLERS: It means a lot today.
LEMON: You got me about to cry, man.
MCLAWHORN: Don --
LEMON: Charles --
MCLAWHORN: It is good today.
LEMON: It is good. Charles Blow, how are you feeling right now?
CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I agree that it's a great moment, but I have to demure just a little bit. You know, there's a bit too much pageantry in there. I mean, the Honor Guard. This is not the South Carolina state flag. This is not the American flag. There is a certain kind of gravitas and honor that was conferred to that flag by the use of that Honor Guard that I do not think befitting, and I think it is -- it kind of taints it a little bit for me.
I'm sorry. I can't pat everybody on the back for how brave they were for doing something that they should have done all along, and in addition to that, you know, there's a really interesting moment where they hand it after tying it in a ribbon to the black officer, which is kind of really symbolic and really incredible, and you couldn't have handed it to me. I'm sorry, I'm just going to say this out loud, you couldn't have handed that thing to me, oops, I dropped something, if fell on the ground, or whatever.
But there is a -- like, having those symbols because there was a black man who had to put that flag back up Bree Newsome took it down. There's all of that symbology that really is meaningful to me and it also does not necessarily feel so good. And I was listening to a couple of your guests talk about really be mindful of what has to still happen. Remember that this is a symbol, but it is not about -- this is a symbol of racism but not the structure of racism, and the structure of racism is still very much intact, and until we deal with the structures of racism in the same way that we deal with the symbols of racism, then we're kind of stuck in the same place that we always were.
[10:20:11] LEMON: Yes. The people standing behind me, how do you guys feel?
(CHEERS)
LEMON: Yes. You all right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A new day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A new day.
LEMON: Light as the sun, dark as the moon, we need one another, come together, someone is a carrying a sign here. Are you guys good? Is it a new day for South Carolina?
(CHEERS)
LEMON: Is it a new day for America? Yes, yes, this is a celebration here. And I want to --
SELLERS: It is, Don.
LEMON: Thank you very much. I want to -- I want to bring in now Andre Duncan, who lost his Aunt Myra Thompson, Myra Thompson in the AME massacre, and he's been watching this.
What's your reaction to this?
ANDRE DUNCAN, NEPHEW OF CHURCH SHOOTING VICTIM MYRA THOMPSON: I love it, man. It's good. I just can't explain how I feel right now because it's like I just won a championship or something for the state, but I think South Carolina is going to be the new model for everybody in the country to follow. How they dealt with the nine murders, you know, we had at the church. How they're dealing with the flag. How everyone stayed calm and came together. And I think that's what it's all about.
LEMON: Yes. And so now the celebration -- the celebrating is over and it's now time for a sober discussion and a way to move the country forward, which I think the president has been discussing, which he discussed in Reverend Clementa Pinckney's -- when he did the eulogy here and as you lawmakers have been discussing as well.
So we had our moment now. And everyone is human, everyone has their moment, got a little bit emotional but now it's time to reflect and it's time to look forward. What happens next, gentlemen?
ANDERSON: The healing process is now. The flag is down. We need to go through that healing process, and then we need to move forward in South Carolina. The nation is watching us, and we are setting an example now for the entire nation that is watching us.
LEMON: Yes.
MCLAWHORN: Achievement gaps and disparity in South Carolina. And I think with the flag being removed, I think young people now feel that they do have a chance to be successful in South Carolina.
LEMON: Bakari?
SELLERS: We need to harness this energy that we have collectively, work together but, Don, not just in South Carolina but around the country kids are being punished simply because of the zip code they're born in. In South Carolina, we have a corridor of shame. Infrastructure are falling apart. Kids going to schools built in 1950. I mean, if we can get all these people together, if we can focus on that and make sure that those kids don't go to school in a corridor of shame but go to school in a corridor of hope, not only will the flag coming down mean something, but Clementa's spirit can rest in all of us.
LEMON: Thank you, lawmakers. Thank you, Andre. I want to thank Charles Blow, and also Van Jones.
Our coverage is going to continue live from South Carolina right here at the steps of the statehouse where this flag no longer flies right after this quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:28:08] ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: If you are just joining us, this happening just moments ago in Columbia, South Carolina, with the Confederate battle flag removed and now on its way to a military museum and the Confederate Relic Room there on state grounds. It was a historic moment not just for South Carolina but for the United States of America.
Thank you for staying with us as we roll into the back half hour now and not just in South Carolina, but the Confederate flag is spurring strong emotions over on Capitol Hill.
Congressman John Lewis saying the fight is far from over. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JOHN LEWIS (D), GEORGIA: It is a symbol of division, a symbol of separation. It is a symbol of hate. It is a relic of our dark past. We must defeat every attempt to return this flag to federal property.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CABRERA: Athena Jones is joining us from Washington this morning where a big funding bill has actually been put on hold, and Athena, that has to do with the Confederate flag as well, right?
ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Ana. That's right. It's a powerful moment watching that flag come down, but here on Capitol Hill this is still a subject of debate. The House GOP leadership had to pull a funding bill yesterday because of a flare up. Many angry Democrats who are angered at the fact that they're going to be voting on an amendment that would allow the Confederate flag to still be displayed in cemeteries controlled by the National Park Service.
A lot of people pointed out this was coming as South Carolina, where the war began, the first state to secede, they're bringing down the Confederate flag and then you have Republicans here on Capitol Hill behind efforts to do just the opposite. So there were a lot of passionate words and raw emotions on the House floor coming from Democrats yesterday.
