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Republicans Uneasy with Donald Immigration Conservation; El Chapo Escaped Through Elaborate Underground Tunnel System; Embarrassing Escape Raises Questions about Mexican Criminal Justice System; Was Atticus Finch a Racist; Terror Plot Disrupted Targeting College Cafeterias. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired July 13, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:30:57] PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: I think it's safe as to say Donald Trump has our attention and he seems to like it that way. Take a look to how Trump responded to hecklers in Phoenix.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & CEO, TRUMP GROUP: I wonder if the Mexican government sent them over here. I think so.

(APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: Because I'm telling you, I tell about the bad deals that this country is making. Mexico, I respect the country. They're taking our jobs. They're taking our manufacturing. They're taking our money. They're taking everything. And they're killing us on the border. And Mexico does not like it.

So remember this.

(SHOUTING)

TRUMP: Don't worry, we'll take our country back. Very soon.

(APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: Very soon.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So while Trump may be basking in the furor over his fiery comments about Mexico tonight, they are drawing cringes from fellow candidates.

Here's Senator Lindsey Graham on "State of the Union." Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R), SOUTH CAROLINA & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think he's hijacked the debate. I think he's a wrecking ball for the future of the Republican Party with the Hispanic community and we need to push back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Big crowds, loose talk, a nervous GOP, it is the Trump effect.

And joining me now to discuss all of this, Grabiel Sherman, the national affairs editor for "New York" magazine, and also the author of "The Loudest Voice in the Room, How Brilliant Bombastic Roger Ailes Built FOX News and Divided a Country"; and also joined by CNN politics and money reporter, M.J. Lee.

M.J., first to you.

If you would just sort of set the stage with the divide within the GOP over Trump and sort of how they respond to him.

M.J. LEE, CNN POLITICS & MONEY REPORTER: The Republican Party is clearly trying to figure out just how to respond to Donald Trump. You saw Lindsey Graham referring to him as taking a wrecking ball to the party. And then we have others like Ted Cruz who has been more eager to come to Donald Trump's defense. I think it's clear that the last thing Republicans wanted going into 2016 was to be on the defensive, especially when they were trying to be very serious about outreach to Hispanic voters. They didn't want to be on the defensive about whether or not the party is backwards or racist or hateful. I think that the take away for a lot of people, especially in the Hispanic community, was that Trump represents that from the Republican Party.

BROWN: It seems like there's a real quandary in the GOP about what to do about this. No doubt about it, Trump has sparked the conversation on the campaign trail about immigration. Don't you think, in that sense, he has had a big influence?

GABRIEL SHERMAN, NATIONAL AFFAIRS EDITOR, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: No question. Look at the poll numbers. What I find interesting is there is an internal war going on inside the Republican Party and credit we saw Rupert Murdoch, who owns FOX News, send out a very strongly worded tweet that basically called Trump wrong. And that, to me, was a message that he was sending to his own news channel, FOX News, that basically says you're giving Trump too much oxygen, this is bad for the Republican Party.

BROWN: And I want to talk about one of your recent tweets, Gabriel. You said that you're hearing from multiple sources several days before Trump announced he was running, that he had a two to three hour private lunch with Roger Ailes. What can you tell us about this meeting between the two?

SHERMAN: The meeting took place shortly after Trump announced. It was a meeting of the minds. Ailes' views are largely in sync with Trump's on immigration. Ailes is very hawkish on immigration. And in my book, I reported that he wants the Navy SEALs to go to the Mexican border and shoot anyone coming across. This is pretty extreme stuff. So privately, this is what the chief of FOX thinks. And you see that Trump saying that publicly, you could almost say Donald Trump is speaking for Roger Ailes.

BROWN: So my question to you, do you think Murdoch's tweets are a pushback in this?

SHERMAN: Without a question. And I think it will be fascinating to look at FOX News' coverage because the owner of FOX news has now publicly said he doesn't agree with Trump's position. And you started to see this morning, actually, some of the FOX talking heads were pushing back on Trump. And so you could see some daylight opening up.

LEE: Brit Hume for one.

SHERMAN: Exactly.

LEE: that he doesn't think he will last long on --

(CROSSTALK)

SHERMAN: Exactly. So you start to see some daylight there.

BROWN: Well, thanks so much, Gabriel and M.J.

SHERMAN: Thank you.

[14:35:14] BROWN: We appreciate it.

Moving right along, coming up on NEWSROOM, was Atticus Finch a racist all along? That is a big question. The reclusive author of "To Kill a Mockingbird," Harper Lee, dropping a bombshell and shedding new light on the iconic character in her new book.

And scurrying through underground tunnels is all within a day's work for Mexican drug cartels. Drug kingpin, El Chapo Guzman, used an elaborate tunnel system for his international ring. CNN takes you underground and inside his complex tunnel network.

Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:40:00] BROWN: Underground tunnels are standard operating procedures for many of Mexico's drug kingpins. Investigators say they're how cartels secretly get around town, escaping from safe house to safe house. Well, Joaquin "el Chapo" Guzman employed an extensive underground tunnel system.

After his arrest last year, Nick Parker went inside some of those safe houses and he got an up-close look at how elaborate these tunnels really are.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PARKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: On this quiet residential street in the Sinaloa state capitol, with a school just across the street, is one of five of El Chapo Guzman's safe houses. We're going inside to take a look. Before we enter, cameras and reinforced steel door reveals the

priority of security. I think one of the first things that hits is you just how modest and basic it is. A small little kitchen, some of the bedrooms here are pretty dingy. Marines tell us this was part of his strategy, to have a very modest accommodations that he could hide in plain sight. In almost every bedroom of the house, there are two TV screen, one for security and one for TV.

When you go in the bathroom, the picture of a normal house really does transform. Beneath this bathtub, a secret tunnel. So if you climb down the steps, you find yourself in the tunnel itself. And you can see it's been quite carefully constructed out of wood. You have to crouch a little bit, but you're quite mobile. And there's an electricity system running throughout.

The nearest safe house is three kilometers in this direction. If you go through this door, you're in the sewage system and the system comes out right here in another safe house just down the road. As you can see, it is very similar setup to the previous one.

In all the houses, evidence of life suddenly suspended, a child's slide, Christmas decorations, and a fondness for mayonnaise.

This safe house perhaps the most significant of all of them. This is where Guzman escaped when he was being pursued by Mexican Marines. They found they had missed him by eight minutes.

And this is where he fled to through this bedroom and into this bathroom where, as you can see, there is another escape hatch underneath this bathtub.

Marines tell us they discovered this entire network when they arrested the head of Guzman's security and he gave them this information. Once again, underlines the very central role of intelligence in the arrests of one of the world's most-wanted men.

Nick Parker, CNN, Mexico.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Incredible to see that.

The prison that housed El Chapo Guzman was considered, quote, "very secure." It was supposed to be the most secure in the country, and it even received several evaluations, but Guzman's spectacular escape has turned into one huge embarrassment for Mexico.

Joining me now is CNN legal analyst, Philip Holloway.

The U.S. saw this exact scenario playing out. Now its fears have come true. The escape raises serious questions about Mexico's criminal justice system. Should we really be surprised that this happened?

PHILIP HOLLOWAY, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I don't think anyone on the north side of the border is surprised. If Mexico is surprised, they have to be fooling themselves. This guy is a master of escape. We knew this. This tunnel system is their signature way of getting people and things across the border and out of prison. So how it's a surprise to anybody is beyond me.

BROWN: We talked about the fact that the U.S. wanted to extradite him last go around. Why wasn't he?

HOLLOWAY: Back in January of February of this year, the United States made a formal extradition request. Even before they received it, Mexico said, we'll let you know in about 300 or 400 years. They were I think assuming that he would serve out his prison time. We knew better than that. We wanted to get him here so we could get him into a super max where he would spend 23 hour as day in a cell.

BROWN: And some of his enemies in the drug cartels have been extradited to the U.S., so there is precedent.

HOLLOWAY: And I think that speaks to just how powerful and how far the tentacles of this organization reach into probably all facets of the Mexican government and the entire Mexican criminal justice system.

BROWN: So why do you think he fought to not be extradited to the U.S.? Clearly, he didn't think he could use the same sort of manipulation and power here as he does in Mexico.

HOLLOWAY: We know he has his tentacles into the U.S., but not the degree that you could tunnel out of the super max in Colorado, for example, and go out in a tunnel that has lights and ventilation and a power cart to get things out. You're not going to do that in the United States. But Mexico is entirely different. Their prisons are not quite the same. So when you infiltrate the criminal justice system, you infiltrate prison management if you will or you become the de facto management of the prison, you can get out just the way he did.

[14:45:08] BROWN: So if he's captured again, which of course that is the hope, what happens then? Do you think then he may be extradited here after what we're seeing?

HOLLOWAY: Anything is possible, but I think really in could be a blessing in disguise if the United States can manage to capture him somewhere else in the world and then bring him to the United States to stand trial, we have indictments in I think seven or eight different federal jurisdictions throughout the United States. So if we can bring him here, it might be a blessing in disguise that he's escaped.

BROWN: Do you think he's left Mexico or is that his safe haven?

HOLLOWAY: Mexico is his safe haven, so if's he's playing it smart, he's probably still in Mexico. But I don't think we'll ever see him again.

BROWN: Really? Is that right?

HOLLOWAY: Right.

BROWN: All right, Philip, thank you very much. Appreciate you coming on.

HOLLOWAY: Thank you.

BROWN: Still ahead, we're following breaking news. Word that the U.S. has disrupted a terror plot on the home front in the name of ISIS. An American at the center of it allegedly planning to target college cafeterias. New details coming into CNN straight ahead.

And up next, the book isn't even out yet, but 55 years after "To Kill a Mockingbird," the latest twist in Harper Lee's new novel is already turning the literary world on its head. Was Atticus Finch a racist? We'll discuss up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:50:23] BROWN: This next story brings new meaning to the term spoiler. I bet you know what I'm talking about. A new Harper Lee novel out tomorrow. Here's your chance to turn away. We're giving you fair warning here. If you're still with me, Atticus Finch that Gregory Peck played in the 1962 film "To Kill a Mockingbird" is portrayed as a racist in Lee's "Go Set a Watchman." I know, it's wounding. But Harper Lee wrote this version of Atticus Finch before "To Kill a Mockingbird." When she presented it to an editor, the editor suggested she rewrite the story in the eyes of Finch's daughter, and that's what led to "To Kill a Mockingbird" and the Atticus that we all admire was born.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GREGORY PECK, ACTOR: You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: So?

PECK: Until you climb inside of his skin and walk around in it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: According to a documentary filmmaker, who just met the 89- year-old reclusive author, Lee wants the world to know her original version of Finch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAY MURPHY, FILMMAKER: She's issued statements. Her lawyer's issued statements. Her very close friends have been interviewed. Everyone says she's delighted and happy to have it published. I did ask her if she thought it was ever going to be published and she said, "Don't be silly, of course, I did." So that was her answer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: With me now, Kyle Whitmire, political commentator for the Alabama Media Group. Alabama, of course, a state where Harper Lee lives and the setting for her books. Also here, political commentator and Democratic strategist, Donna Brazile. Thank you both for being on with us.

DONNA BRAZILE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: thank you.

KYLE WHITMIRE, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, ALABAMA MEDIA GROUP: Thanks for having me.

BROWN: Kyle, I'm going to start with you.

You're in Alabama and there has been so much reaction, strong reaction to this really across the board, from all over. And let's look at a couple of the tweets really echoing the devastation of fans out there. One that we read says, quote, "The idea of Atticus Finch being racist is like Spielberg doing a sequel in which E.T. punches Elliott in the face and steals his lunch money." That really sums it up. And then this one, "My fictional husband since the eight grade is a racist and my entire childhood is a lie. #atticusfinch."

Why do you think this has struck such a nerve?

KYLE: Look, I grew up here in Alabama. I read this book in high school. A lot of people here in Alabama and throughout the world, this was one of their coming-of-age books and that sort of taught them right from wrong, black from white, how, you know, we're supposed to behave. And let's face it, in the last month or so, we've really struggled, especially here in the south, with how we view our heroes. And looking back on people who had feet of clay, and here to find out that Atticus Finch or maybe this new version was not the perfect person we always thought him to be, it can be a bit shaking.

BROWN: You bring up a really interesting point, Kyle, because you're saying basically just recently, especially in the south, a lot of people have had to grapple with who are their heroes.

Especially Donna, we saw the lowering of the Confederate flag and other huge monumental things have happened with race relations just in the past year or so. Do you think that has played in at all into this -- the reaction that Atticus was a racist? Essentially, it pokes holes in to someone who was a hero to so many.

BRAZILE: I still believe that you can read both books and can away understanding what that particular era was all about. I read it in 7th grade. Mr. Lockwood, yes, I remember my teacher's name. When we talked about it in class -- it was a long time ago, trust me -- we talked about redemption. We talked about forgiveness. It was a moment of healing and transgression and explaining, how can an innocent person be accused of something in the case in the book of "To Kill a Mockingbird," it was rape. And imagine in 7th grade talking about rape. But then as you know, the book used the "N" word several times and we had to discuss that, as well. So I think, you know, the new book, I'm interested in reading it. It wasn't on my list, my bucket list this summer to read, but I'm going to include it because I think it's very important to see Mr. Atticus and this other part of him that Scout comes back to, to learn that her dad wasn't an upright, moral man, but that he was bigoted. And that her long-time boyfriend -- spoiler alert. I'm sorry. So I'm anxious to read it. I think there's a story in all of this for all of us at this moment as well.

[14:55:17] BROWN: Well, Kyle, on that point, on the flip side of this, there has been the reaction of, look, this is real life. People aren't just cookie cutter heroes like Atticus Finch may is been in the first book, but this shows that people evolve and they change. And what is your take on that approach to it or that perspective about it?

WHITMIRE: Well, I think it makes this character just that much more human, and perhaps Atticus is the hero we want and this new Atticus is the hero that we have or what we've come to learn is, you know, wasn't really who we thought it was. But again, it's important to see these as two very different books. This is going to be very interesting for English professors and colleges all across the country to talk about.

BROWN: Absolutely.

WHITMIRE: I had a professor in college who said that the key to being an English major is being able to talk at length about books you haven't read. And we haven't had the chance yet to read this new book, so we don't quite know what we're dealing with. But I think it's going to be lessons in, you know, just the complexity of people and also about the creative process.

BROWN: And really dealing with disappointment. I was reading one article that said, you know, "To Kill a Mockingbird" is maybe what you read maybe in middle school and high school, and the new book, in college, or when you're a little older as an adult.

I want to ask you both, do you think, Kyle and Donna, that it was a good or bad thing that this book has come out and that the world knows that Atticus was a racist?

BRAZILE: She wrote this book. This was the original book before edited.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Before, exactly. Which I think is interesting. She wrote it before "To Kill a Mockingbird."

BRAZILE: Right. But she wrote it after the 1954 case in Brown v. Board of Education. She wrote it at a time when young people across the south began, young black people began to sit at lunch counters. And it was an inspiration for so many back in the day during the civil rights movement. So I'm interested in reading to see what a white man in Alabama in 1930 was thinking because I'm sure, although they may not think out loud like that anymore, I'm going to read it for that purpose, I want to see just the thought process. And when she came back from the north and her eyes are opened to the reality that her father is not this upright moral fair and balanced human being but, in fact, has beliefs and feelings that are out of touch with her home life -- look, it's a work of fiction. I'll probably have a glass of wine and just enjoy it on the couch like I do now.

BROWN: Kyle, what is your take? WHITMIRE: I think what you said a moment ago is very much it. "To

Kill a Mockingbird" is the book that you read when you're growing up. This might be the book that you read when you're grown. The first book is very much a book about Atticus Finch and about this one incident, which, curiously, Tom, the defendant in "To Kill a Mockingbird," is acquitted, has been acquitted in "Go Set a Watchman," one of the other differences here.

BRAZILE: That's right.

WHITMIRE: I just think that this is going to be the book that we read when we're grown and it's something that maybe is a lot more like real life than what we read in "To Kill a Mockingbird."

BROWN: And by the way, it's purportedly the most pre-ordered book since the Harry Potter series, so a lot of anticipation.

Donna Brazile, Kyle Whitmire, thank you so much. Really interesting conversation there.

BRAZILE: Thank you.

WHITMIRE: Thanks for having me.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

[14:59:18] BROWN: Top of the hour. I'm Pamela Brown.

Breaking news into CNN. An American in custody, charged with plotting to attack public places, like college cafeterias, all in the name of ISIS.

Let's bring in CNN's Alexandra Field and CNN political commentator, Buck Sexton, who is also a former CIA counterterrorism analyst.

First, to you, Alexandra.

What you can tell us about the alleged plot?

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, law enforcement sources are telling us that this is the son of a Boston police captain, a 23- year-old man from Adams, Massachusetts. Acquaintances tell investigators that he is someone who has been suffering from mental illness. That recently he had expressed interest in martyrdom online and in conversations. And he had expressed his desire, his interest in supports ISIS with an attack. Authorities finally moved in after he received four firearms from somebody who was cooperating with the Western Massachusetts Joint Terrorism Task Force.