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Iran Nuclear Deal Debate Runs Hot. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired July 14, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Allows him to stay around, stay alive.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Yan Grillo (ph), thanks very much for joining us.

That's it for me. Thanks for watching. The news continues next on CNN.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. Great to have you along with us on this Tuesday. I'm Pamela Brown.

Well, after 20 months of painstaking talks and snagged negotiations, we now have a deal, a landmark agreement aimed at reigning in Iran's nuclear program and putting the brakes on what has the potential of be one of the most deadliest weapons on the face of the earth. But let me be clear here, this may be the biggest diplomatic agreement in decades, but it's also the most bitterly divisive. Advocates of the deal, like President Obama, say it will keep Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon, for a while at least, but opponents, like Israel - Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says it pushes his country that much closer to destruction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Because America negotiated from a position of strength and principle, we have stopped the spread of nuclear weapons in this region. Because of this deal, the international community will be able to verify that the Islamic Republic of Iran will not develop a nuclear weapon.

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: The world is a much more dangerous place today than it was yesterday. The leading international powers have bet our collective future on a deal with a formal sponsor of international terrorism. They have gambled that in ten years' time, Iran's terrorist regime will change, while removing any incentive for it to do so.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So, what's in it? Well, for one, we're told, it will allow 24/7 inspections of Iran's known nuclear sites, plus any suspicious sites as well. Secondly, the deal means that Iran will lose two-thirds of its centrifuges. That means only enough for a fraction of one weapon. And for its efforts, Iran will see the lifting of the international sanctions that have crippled its economy.

So, joining me now to discuss this, Elise Labott, CNN global affairs correspondent.

Elise, of course, the devil is in the details here. What are the sticking points? As it as simple as it sounds or are there caveat for both sides here?

ELISE LABOTT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pam, I mean clearly there are going to be caveats on both sides. The sanctions, for instance, Iran is saying they will be lifted immediately. But the truth is, they'll be lifted immediately once Iran implements its end of the bargain. And so that's going to be phased out over time.

For the U.S. part, it's saying that these are very intrusive inspections, but they also, when there's a suspect site, as they say, a suspected site, the inspectors are going to have to give Iran 24 days' notice. So it's really all about differing interpretations about what is in the deal. I mean clearly there's a lot in it for both sides. But there are caveats to claim victory on both sides as well.

BROWN: And, Elise, how are both sides sort of spinning the deal now? We know the Iran media has already been real out there sort of touting this bill as a victory.

LABOTT: Well, I think the size and scope of Iran's nuclear program going forward is the most perfect example. For instance, Iran is touting the fact that now it has an internationally recognized, legitimate nuclear program with enrichment and research and development and those type of things, whereas the U.S. and its partners are talking about the curbs on Iran's nuclear program. Both are true. There are a lot of curbs. This is going to be a much smaller, tightly more constrained nuclear program with tougher inspections, but it is also going to be a very robust nuclear deal for Iran where it gets to keep a lot of its infrastructure. It's going to get to do research and development. And when this deal is over, it's still going to have a very hefty nuclear program.

BROWN: And to be clear, this isn't over yet, right? Is still has to go through Congress?

LABOTT: Well, the deal has to go through Congress. They don't have an up or down vote on the deal per say. What they do - they can approve the deal or, you know, not approve the deal in terms of basically they have the power to lift the sanctions. President Obama is going to waive certain sanctions. Congress can say, no, we're not going to give you that authority. But they would have to have two-thirds of one house of Congress to override the veto. President Obama doesn't think they have the votes. Privately, some members are saying they don't have the votes.

And what the administration would say, listen, if the U.S. walks away from this deal, if Congress rejects this deal, the U.S. would be alone in the international community because these international sanctions are going away.

BROWN: Right.

LABOTT: And so the U.S. would never be able to cobble the kind of sanctions together to keep Iran's nuclear program in check that it's going to have in this deal if it walks away, Pam.

BROWN: And let's not forget, this isn't just between Iran and the U.S. There were other countries that were involved with this.

[14:05:01] Elise Labott, thank you so much.

And doing a deeper dive on what Elise was just talking about, as the details made their way to Washington, there was swift reaction from Republicans immediately slamming it as a bad deal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R), HOUSE SPEAKER: And that's why the deal that we have out there, in my view, from what I know of it thus far, is unacceptable. It's going to be - it's going to hand a dangerous regime billions of dollars in sanctions relief while paving the way for a nuclear Iran. And this isn't about Democrats or Republicans, it's not a partisan issue at all. It's about right versus wrong.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I would say to the Iranians, we don't trust you with a large nuclear program because you lie and cheat. You put every Arab state at risk, you put Israel at risk, you put our country at risk. You're taking religious Nazis and empowering this regime at a time when we should be neutering this regime. This is an historically bad deal that would throw the region into further chaos. It's taking a gasoline can and pouring it on a fire. The Mideast is raging in terms of conflict now. You have taken it to a new level.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: One thing everyone does seem to agree on, that this fits the definition of a world-changing agreement for better or worse. Critics say this still is just delaying the inevitable. They say Iran will get nuclear weapons. Supporters say this deal will prevent Iran for acquiring nuclear weapons. So, a lot to talk about here and for that I want to bring in Bobby Ghosh, CNN global affairs analyst and managing editor with "Quartz."

So, Bobby, first off, I was just reading your article. You, in your view, think that Iran is the big winner here. So does that mean that the U.S. is on the losing end of it?

BOBBY GHOSH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, Iran is unquestionably the big winner. Look at the - look at where the fireworks are going off. They're not - there are no fireworks going off in Washington, in London, in Berlin, not even in Moscow and Beijing. The P5+1 countries that negotiated with Iran are expressing quiet satisfaction. Iran, on the other hand, boisterous celebrations. They are far and away the winners.

The United States - has the United States won? That's not yet clear. The best case scenario is, yes. The best case scenario is that 10 years from now Iran decides on its own that it does not want to pursue nuclear weapons, then we could say, well, this was - this is a big victory for the U.S. There are other questions here. There will be an economic windfall here for Iran. What does the Iranian government do with all this money?

BROWN: They could get billions of dollars, right?

GHOSH: What are they going to do with this money? Are they going to continue to sponsor terrorism in other countries? Some of those terrorist groups have not targeted us recently -

BROWN: And - and -

GHOSH: But have in the past and might again in the future. So we don't yet know whether the U.S. has won. That's to be seen. It is unquestionable that Iran has definitely won.

BROWN: Also yet to be seen is what's going to happen in 15 years when those restrictions on Iran's stockpile are set to expire, essentially. What will happen then? Are we going to be back to square one?

GHOSH: Well, we're hoping that the Obama administration is making a bet that the Iranians decide, OK, we've had 10 or 15 good years, we don't need nukes. That's a big ask. If the Iranians decide 10 years from now that they want to increase enrichment towards making nuclear weapons, this agreement allows them, and we don't get a do - get a do- over. We don't get to say 10 years from now, hey, hey, hey, hey -

BROWN: Come back to the table, let's renegotiate.

GHOSH: Yes, come back to the table for new negotiations. They - their clear - free and clear to go if they want to. They could decide they don't, but that's up to them now.

BROWN: So then you think that the U.S. is being overly optimistic as far as how Iran is going to be in 10 to 15 years from now?

GHOSH: Well, any negotiation is a gamble. The Obama administration decided clearly that that is a possibility, that Iran can be brought in from the cold, that we can have more normal relations with Iran and that we can now begin to influence them in a more normal way and with quiet persuasion and perhaps with the help of allies get them to a point where 15 years from now they say, you know what, we're fine, we don't need to spend money on a nuclear deal. We've got all these conventional weapons. We can buy as many missiles and other tanks and planes that we want with all this money we've got. We don't need nuclear weapons.

BROWN: So in light of that, what about Syria? How does Syria come into play with all of this?

GHOSH: Second big victory today is Bashar Assad of Syria.

BROWN: Wow.

GHOSH: He is an Iranian puppet. He depends hugely on Iranian money, Iranian weapons, Iranian military personnel, all three of which he can now get more of because his patrons in Tehran have more money to play with. They can buy more weapons. They need him to survive and they don't care that he's killing hundreds and thousands of his own people, mostly because those people he's killing are Sunni, not Shia. The Iranians are Shia. They're - they're not that concerned that he's slaughtering all those Sunnis. They need him to survive and they have shown that they're willing to do anything, invest any amount of money, any amount - give him any amount of weapons to make sure that he survives.

BROWN: So clearly this deal is not perfect but it is a pretty big achievement.

GHOSH: It is a - it changes the world. As you said in your introduction, this completely changes the world. Does it change it for the better? It changes it for the better for Iranians. It changes it better for Bashar Assad. Does it change it for the better for the rest of us? We'll have to see.

[14:10:13] BROWN: We'll have to see. Bobby Ghosh, thank you so much.

GHOSH: Any time.

BROWN: And up next right here on NEWSROOM, the 2016 candidates are weighing in, including Donald Trump, who's near the top of the Republican polls. What he says about the deal. And the reported threats against him involving El Chapo's escape.

Plus, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who didn't see eye to eye with President Obama on Iran, is reacting to a deal she could inherit if elected.

And a stunning survival. A teenager says she walked away from a plane crash after spending a day waiting for rescuers. I'll speak live with a woman who told the girl's dad she had been found alive. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:15:01] BROWN: Donald Trump becoming the latest Republican candidate to weigh in on the nuclear deal with Iran. Just moments ago, he spoke with CNN chief congressional correspondent Dana Bash. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Let's talk about the Iran deal. The president said that it's not built on trust, it's built on verification.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's not true. It's absolutely not true.

BASH: How do you know that?

TRUMP: They can do whatever they want to do, because I know many of the people involved in the negotiation. The Iranians are very good negotiators. The Persians are always great negotiators. They are laughing at us back in Iran. And why didn't we get our prisoners back? Why doesn't somebody say, where are our prisoners? Nobody's even talking about -- we have four people that are in prison that shouldn't be. Why couldn't they make that part of the deal?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Let's bring in CNN's senior Washington correspondent Jeff Zeleny.

So, Jeff, we were going to talk about Trump in a second, so stick around for that. But first, the poll leader on the other side of the aisle, Hillary Clinton, who didn't quite see eye to eye with President Obama on Iran several years ago, is now weighing in. What is she saying, Jeff?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: I mean you're right, Pamela, we still remember it so well back in 2007 during their first presidential campaign, Secretary Clinton, then Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, she called it naive. In fact, frankly naive were some words she used to, you know, then Senator Obama, saying that he couldn't negotiate with Iran. But, of course, so much has changed since then. Time has passed since then. She's served as the secretary of state in his administration and started laying the groundwork for this deal early on.

She largely gave it pretty positive measures. She got a briefing last night from the president and then she was briefed by White House officials, as well as every other former living secretary of state. So she spoke pretty positively about it as she met with Democrats on Capitol Hill. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The president called me late last night to tell me that an agreement had been reached. I think this is an important step that puts the lid on Iran's nuclear programs. And it will enable us, then, to turn our attention, as it must, to doing what we can with other partners in the region and beyond to try to prevent and contain Iran's other bad actions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: I mean she was making those comments as she visited Capitol Hill, and this is really the topic of the day, that so many Republican presidential candidates, not just Donald Trump, every other Republican presidential candidate is speaking out in opposition to this. And the reality is, this is going to be met with much skepticism here on Capitol Hill. The president said he's opened to having a robust debate. Well, Pamela, I can tell you, that's exactly what he's going to get. But he holds the veto pen. He holds control of this here. So this is, over the next 60 days, when this has to be agreed to, it's a very controversial issue here in Washington.

BROWN: Yes, the reaction has been swift. You've mentioned there's already a lot of people on Capitol Hill being very critical of this deal, but have those - those people, those opponents of this, come up with any alternatives that they would suggest?

ZELENY: Well, we're going to hear that when the - when the House Foreign Affairs Committee begins holding hearings tomorrow. And then the hearings move to the Senate side. There will be a lot of discussion. But, frankly, people are still reading this deal and members of Congress are only been briefed on it right now. So alternatives are slightly difficult to hammer down or nail down because they weren't at the negotiating table here. But you're going to hear a lot of criticism. But at the end of the day, again, the president holds the veto pen here and it's hard to imagine that this Republican Congress could muster a two-thirds majority support to override any veto. But the White House knows it has a lot of selling to do. They have a sell this to the American people, as well as to members of both parties here in Congress.

BROWN: All right, so, Jeff, hold tight, because Donald Trump did not stop with Iran. He also talked to our Dana Bash about the presidential polls, his publicity and alleged threats from escaped drug lord El Chapo. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Lindsey Graham, you opponent, told me on Sunday that you're a wrecking ball for the Republican Party.

TRUMP: Well, Lindsey Graham is somebody - look, he's got zero in the polls. Nobody is listening to him. Well - every time -

BASH: But he's not the only one. You know that he's not the only one.

TRUMP: Excuse me. Well, but how about - how about Ted Cruz and how about Ben Carson and how about others that say, what Trump said is exactly right? You have to mention them too. I mean Lindsey Graham, all I see him doing is wanting to bomb everybody. Every time I look at him, he wants to bomb somebody.

BASH: But talking to Republicans behind the scenes, you - you know this full well. You spoke to the Republican chair and I'm sure you speak to a lot of other people that we don't know about, that they are concerned about the way that you're taking the conversation within the Republican primary process.

TRUMP: Well, I don't know about that. I'll be honest with you, I want to save our country. Our country's going to hell. We have a problem. I want to make America great again. And to do that, you have to be bold, you have to be strong, you have to use the same abilities that I use - you need a certain ability. We don't have that in office right now. We have people that are incompetent.

And as far as the Republican Party, I mean they're big people. They can stick up for themselves. I like Reince, but, you know, he put out a false report that he spoke to me for an hour. It wasn't true. I turned out not to be true. He spoke to me for a very short period of time and he congratulated me on how well I was doing in the polls.

[14:20:09] All of a sudden I'm reading this other kind of a story. With that being said, I think he's a very good guy. But many people in the Republican Party agree with me 100 percent on illegal immigrants and that's why I'm leading in the poll. BASH: A new poll just came out saying that 40 percent of Republican

voters think that you're just doing this for publicity. How do you change their -

TRUMP: That's what I don't understand.

BASH: How do you thank change their mind?

TRUMP: Well, I think it's a great thing for me.

BASH: Why?

TRUMP: Because a lot of those people want to vote for me, but they think I'm doing it for publicity. The fact is, that was one I was very surprised at. I was leading in the polls. I mean I'm leading in so many of these polls. One came out in Alaska. One came out in North Carolina. You have "The Huffington Post" came out with one where I'm leading nationally. I will tell you this, I hope that's right, the 40 percent think I'm doing it for - because a lot of those people are voters for Trump but they won't be in the polls if they think I'm doing it for publicity.

BASH: The whole issue with the Mexican drug lord who broke out of prison, can you tell me about the threat that you believe that you got and your conversations with the FBI?

TRUMP: Well, I've had threats because I'm talking about Mexico and I have great respect for the Mexican leaders, because they're much smarter and more cunning than our leaders and they're making much better deals. And I have a theory that Mexico doesn't care so much what I say about the border, which is horrible, the border. They care more about what I'm saying about trade because they are making trade deals with the United States that are just stripping us of our money, our jobs, our people. What they're doing to the United States in trade - and I have a theory that Mexico is calling a lot of shots. And I also know - I'm suing Univision now for $500 million. I have a very - you know, I have an unbreakable contract. I also think that Univision takes its marching orders absolutely from Mexico.

BASH: But just specifically on the El Chapo situation, do you have any evidence or any real concern that there is a real threat from him in particular?

TRUMP: Law enforcement has it very well in hand. We'll see. Maybe they do, maybe they don't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And Presidential Candidate Jeb Bush, by the way, who was neck and neck with Donald Trump in a lot of these polls, was just out of - asked about Donald Trump a few minutes ago and here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Why am I talking about Trump? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

BUSH: Well, I didn't (ph) talk to him about it that much. In fact, no questions - interesting that no questions come up about Donald Trump. I do think, though, from a Republican Party perspective, we have to be big and bold, not divisive and angry. We have to be hopeful and optimistic, not deeply pessimistic. We're never going to win if we're a grievance party. We'll win if we offer something that gives people hope that their lives are going to get better. And Mr. Trump has every right to have every belief he has. He's going to run. That's fine. But I don't - I don't want to be associated with the kind of vitriol that he's spewing out these days.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So, Jeff, I want to get your insight on what we just heard from Jeb Bush, what he's saying about his rival Donald Trump.

ZELENY: Well, Pamela, frankly, this is what a lot of Republicans have been waiting to hear. They're waiting to hear Jeb Bush, or one of the many other Republican candidates, effectively stand up to him and say, look, this is not the type of vision, not the type of message we want for the party. Set aside his comments about the Mexican immigrants, there's a lot of other things Donald Trump is talking about.

But I think on a day like this, if you talk to top Republican advisors here on Capitol Hill or out across the country, an Iranian deal, something like this shows the serious nature of the presidency. It shows that whoever wins the White House next will inherit whatever type of deal there is or there isn't. So it really puts a fine point on how serious of a moment this is, how much Republicans want to win back that White House. And Republicans like Jeb Bush say that Donald Trump's comments simply aren't helpful. So finally he's saying out loud what a lot of Republicans have been saying privately for many weeks.

Pamela.

BROWN: Really quickly, Jeff, why do you think he's just now saying this now when Republicans have been thinking this quietly for weeks?

ZELENY: Right. I mean he - he has been sort of gradually ratcheting up on this, but I think he was asked the question today. And, frankly, a lot of Republicans describe it as like standing up to a neighborhood bully. You sort of do it and it makes you look strong. But I think Jeb Bush is trying to, you know, take a leadership reign in this party. So he's trying to - or to encourage other Republicans to focus on the race at hand here, not all the comments from Donald Trump.

BROWN: Jeff Zeleny, thank you very much.

And up next, she survived a plane crash into a mountain, followed by two days in rugged, rural terrain before finding help. Now the story of one teenager's remarkable survival. I'll talk to someone who was helping in the search effort for that aircraft and perhaps more survivors still lost deep in the woods. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:28:54] BROWN: This is an incredible story. She survived a plane crash, tried to save her grandparents from the wreckage, and made a two-day trek through the rugged northern Cascades to find help. Now her harrowing tale could be just what rescuers need to find that missing aircraft. Sixteen-year-old Autumn Veatch and her grandparents were flying from Montana to Washington state on Sunday when their small plane ran into trouble. The teenager told police that they crashed into a mountain and she couldn't free her grandparents from the wreckage. Two days later, she managed to make her way out of the wilderness by following a stream, finally reaching a highway and flagged down a passing driver for help. The local sheriff calls it a miracle.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF FRANK ROGERS, OKANOGAN COUNTY, WASHINGTON: It gets cold up there at night. I mean you're pretty high elevations. So she survived not only the crash, then going through that and -- I'll just tell you this, from all of us here, we're just impressed with her. She's kind of like a superhero.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Veatch's father says his daughter is going to need time to recover.

[14:29:54] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID VEATCH, AUTUMN VEATCH'S FATHER: So these people were really playing the part of grandparents to her and that was - that's hitting her really hard. She's had to deal with a lot of loss. I believe in God and I've seen stuff like this happen several times. There's no way I cannot believe in God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)