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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

President to Talk Iran Deal; Video of El Chapo Escape; Jury Deliberates in Theater Shooting. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired July 15, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00] HAKEEM OLUSEYI, ASTROPHYSICIST: Thank you for having me.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks so much.

OLUSEYI: Thank you so much.

BOLDUAN: And thank you all for joining us "AT THIS HOUR."

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: LEGAL VIEW starts right now.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow, in for Ashleigh Banfield today.

He walked into the shower and disappeared down a hole, making a clean break through a mile-long tunnel. A Mexican drug lord's brazen prison escape all captured on tape.

Also ahead -

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And everybody in this world is going to move on, except these 12 families.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Twelve grieving families who lost their loved ones in Colorado in the movie theater massacre still in deep pain as 12 jurors begin deciding the fate of James Holmes.

And was it a justified police shooting or a cold blooded killing? Either way, it was a tragic case of mistaken identity and a case reignited by newly released video out of California. You can watch and you can judge for yourself.

But first this, the battle lines have been drawn and President Obama is about to take direct aim at critics of the Iran nuclear deal. A White House news conference set for 1:00 p.m. Eastern, just about one hour from now.

And since the signing of that hard-fought agreement, we are in a tense holding pattern between signing day and a deadline for its approval. The terms of the deal keep Iran from moving forward on any nuclear weapons program for at least 10 years. Also, international inspectors will have access to Iran's nuclear

sites and of immediate concern to the people of Iran, many international sanctions that have choked their economy will go away.

The deal's defenders are in protection mode and there's plenty of pushback. Israel's prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, calls it a historic mistake for the world and Republicans in Congress are slamming it as nothing but a list of concessions for Iran. One of the world's most experienced diplomats on CNN earlier today says, "give it a chance."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: For people to just flat out say this doesn't work or that they're going to derail it in our Congress, I - I hope people don't mean it because what they need to do is to study what is a really important agreement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Vice President Joe Biden meeting with House Democrats just a short time ago. He is working to shore up support for the Iran deal on Capitol Hill during this 60-day review period before we see a vote in September. The Republicans will need some Democrats to join them in opposing the deal if they hope to be successful in trying to shut it down. Biden said this of fellow Democrats in the House. Quote, "I'm confident they'll like it when they understand it." And the president admits that the deal leaves the door open for Iran to defy the terms of the agreement, speaking to "The New York Times" after its historic signing. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The critics are shifting off the nuclear issue and they're moving into, well, even if the nuclear issue is dealt with, there's still going to be sponsoring terrorism and they're going to get this sanctions relief and so they're going to have more money to engage in these bad activities. That is a possibility.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That from the president's interview with Tom Friedman of "The New York Times" just after the deal was announced yesterday. As I mentioned, President Obama will be holding that press conference just about an hour from now. Michelle Kosinski at the White House for us.

Michelle, as we await the president's press conference, when you look at this, what's - what is the harder fight right now, sort of protecting the deal, securing the votes or trying to tear it down?

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Oh, that's a really good question. I mean no administration is going to want to push something through, even though they legally can, but have Congress adamantly oppose it and fall just shy of a veto override. I mean that's not great for your own authority and your own standing on trying to get something like that through. It's not always a great sign for the future of it either.

But - but here's the thing, Congress is going to have to be dictated by the numbers. Plain and simple, no matter how strongly many are opposed to it, and they are very strongly opposed, they're still going to have to get enough Democrats on board to get a two-thirds majority in either house, because if they disapprove the deal, we already know the White House is going to veto it.

But that's not stopping anyone from really getting out there with their opposition. I mean Republicans using words like "naive," "wrong," "dangerous," "mistake" in describing the deal as it stands now. Here's Senator Tom Cotton. And, remember, he was the one who penned that letter to Iran's leaders and got 47 senators to sign on to it, basically saying that Congress was the one who's going to end up making the deciding vote on this. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TOM COTTON (R), ARKANSAS: So I've reviewed the entire deal and, unfortunately, it's not as bad as I'd feared. It's actually much worse. But first, before we get into the detail, we have to remember who we're dealing with. Iran is an anti-American terror-sponsoring regime with the blood of hundreds of American soldiers on their hands. They cannot be trusted with nuclear weapons or even nuclear threshold capacity, but this deal puts them on the path to that, whether in the coming months and years if they violate the deal or even in eight to 10 years if they keep the deal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12:05:15] KOSINSKI: And you saw that Vice President Biden was on The Hill talking to Democrats today. We know several of those Democrats, too, are skeptical. They want to see it. They want to get their hands on it. They want to know more.

But among the biggest criticisms out there are, you know, you have the P5+1, the U.S. and five other countries. Why not use all of that leverage to get Iran to dismantle its nuclear capability all together? Why leave them with this industrial nuclear complex basically? Why allow them to enrich uranium at all? I mean the president said that it would be unrealistic to take it all away. But that's - that's a big one and the president is going to face some tough questions today from the White House press corps, Poppy.

HARLOW: Yes, absolutely. That was Tom Friedman's first question to him in the interview, you know, why even allow that to happen? And he said, the world signed up for these sanctions to achieve not regime change or solve every problem with Iran, and he said that was never something that was in the cards, but certainly facing a lot of that criticism.

Michelle Kosinski, thank you very much.

Now we take you to mention, where the country's notorious convict, its most-wanted man, is still either on the run or deep in hiding. Take a look at. This this is the last glimpse of Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman that officials got at the maximum security prison where he was serving a life sentence. That was on Saturday. An embarrassing slip for Mexican authorities that is not getting easier for them with every passing day that El Chapo remains on the lam. Here's CNN's Polo Sandoval.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This newly-released surveillance video shows the second brazen prison escape of infamous drug lord Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman. Watch as Guzman, still in prison uniform, calmly walks over to the shower in his cell, he bends over and then seemly vanishes into thin air. Mexican authorities say Guzman exploited two blind spots in his maximum security prison cell, which is under 24-hour surveillance, slipping through a hole under the shower to make is elaborate getaway. Guzman's tracking bracelet that monitored his every move, left behind.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To see somebody escape from supposedly the top security prison brought through a tunnel a mile long with lights, with an air vent, with a motorcycle on rails, it makes the government look useless.

SANDOVAL: These images showing the escape tunnel and a motorcycle on the tracks inside the tunnel Guzman used to escape. According to Mexican officials, the bike was likely used to remove dirt during the excavation and transport the tools for the dig. The tunnel stretching for about a mile and ending inside a half-built house.

El Chapo, a menacing marijuana, heroin and cocaine kingpin and head of the multibillion dollar Sinaloa drug cartel is described as a complete savage with powerful ties spanning across Mexico and the U.S. And now details emerging that after Guzman's first recapture in early 2014, U.S. DEA agents received information suggesting that Guzman's relatives and associates were looking for ways to break him out of prison again, passing this information along to Mexican authorities, a claim Mexico's government has denied.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANDOVAL: This surveillance video being released now as we're getting word that yet another high-ranking Mexican official is off the job at this hour. We're now being told that Ramon Pecano (ph), the head of intelligence for the federal police in Mexico, was removed from his post. Poppy, he really is just the latest official to really be fired from his position amid this cloud of controversy swirling over law enforcement here.

Back to you.

HARLOW: Yes, so many questions, so few answers at this time. Thirty- eight plus prison officials being questioned in this.

Polo, thank you very much.

Coming up next, it took three long years to get to this moment. What is happening right now in that court in Colorado. The jury, deliberating. Will there be a quick verdict in the trial of James Holmes, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:12:25] HARLOW: Well, two and a half months of testimony in the Colorado theater shooting trial and it all comes down to this. Right now, nine women and three men are deliberating the fate of the man who shot and killed 12 people at the Century 16 Theater on July 20th of 2012. Seventy other people were wounded in that mass shooting.

These are the 12 people who were murdered. Jonathan Blunk, A.J. Boik, Jesse Childress, Gordon Cowden, Jessica Redfield Ghawi, John Larimer, Matt McQuinn, Micayla Medek, Veronica Moser-Sullivan, Alex Summivan, Alexander Teves and Rebecca Wingo.

James Holmes pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity, but the victim's families say this killer, who they refuse to name, while sick is not insane.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDY PHILLIPS, JESSICA GHAWI'S MOTHER: I don't care if he's mentally ill or not. That's irrelevant to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn't.

PHILLIPS: He wanted to kill people. He managed to do it. And he should be held accountable. Mental illness is different than being insane. And there are a lot of people, millions of people in this country that are mentally ill that don't go out and kill people.

I'd like to know how many of you can name every single person on this t-shirt instead of the killer's name. Just think about that.

TOM TEVES, ALEXANDER TEVES' FATHER: I have seen that thing live so much in the last three years. I haven't seen Alex and I'll never see him again. And you guys will move on, and I don't blame that, right? Everybody in this world is going to move on, except these 12 families. This thing isn't what it's all about. I know the media struggles with that, but this thing is someone who put on full body armor and started shooting innocent people with a semiautomatic weapon with full metal jacket bullets. Don't make him the story. He - that thing's not the story.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: As you hear that, Ana, so many times, do not focus on him. Remember our loved ones and change things so this doesn't happen again. What are the families saying to you right now as the jury walks into that deliberation room?

ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is a lot of anxious waiting that's happening out here, outside the Arapahoe County Courthouse. I can tell you that the theater, of course, was packed full of people the night it happened and we saw so many of those people inside the courtroom yesterday. There was not an empty seat in the house. It was full of victims' family members, including Sandy and Lonnie Phillips, the Teves parents.

We saw Caleb Medley, who is now in a wheelchair. He and his wife both survived, but he was in the middle of brain surgery at the same time that his newborn baby was having - being delivered, being born at the hospital. They each have their own unique story and they've each been waiting for this moment for the past three years.

[12:15:17] Remember, it was all July 20, 2012, when the shooting happened and they want justice. They want closure to this chapter in their lives.

And I spoke with Lonnie and Sandy Phillips a little bit personally off to the side who say, you know, what's next in our lives, that's the big question, after all of this is done?

HARLOW: Right.

CABRERA: So much energy and emotional time has been spent focusing on this moment, on this day -

HARLOW: Right.

CABRERA: Or on the next month when we finally learn what the sentencing will be and so there's still a lot of questions about moving forward, Poppy.

HARLOW: Also, I know at 11:00 a.m. Eastern, so really just a short while ago the jury did go into that deliberation room and they've already asked a question. What are they asking?

CABRERA: You know, it wasn't much. It came out asking for a white board and they also said that they've decided what their jury hours will be if the deliberations continue past today. So they've set them from 8:15 in the morning local time 10:15 Eastern, to about 4:30 in the afternoon local time. So that's what we can anticipate in the days ahead of they don't return a verdict today.

I can tell you, they have a lot of different charges to get through.

HARLOW: Yes.

CABRERA: And while they're very similar, there are 165 counts all together. We've learned there are about 650 jury verdict forms they'll have to fill out. So it could take some time. And, remember, they're deciding on sanity in this case.

HARLOW: Right.

CABRERA: So whether Holmes was guilty or not guilty by reason of insanity. If they return a guilty verdict, this all moves into a sentencing phase which could last a whole nother month in which they'll decide between life in prison or the death penalty.

Poppy.

HARLOW: All right. And we're going to talk a lot more about that with our legal panel next.

Ana Cabrera reporting live for us there. Thank you very much.

And the jury knows full well what is at stake if they find James Holmes not guilty by reason of insanity. The jury instructions spell it right out. I want to read you part of this, because this is not in every jury instruction in a case like this. Quote, "if the defendant is found not guilty by reason of insanity, it will be this court's duty to commit him to the custody of the Colorado Department of Human Services until such time as the court determines that he is eligible for release. If the defendant is found not guilty by reason of insanity, he will never again be tried on the merits of the criminal charges filed against him."

So, does that mean that Holmes could actually walk free one day? Our legal panel weighs in next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:21:10] HARLOW: Well, the jury in the Colorado theater shooting trial has 165 counts to consider, 164 of those represent a person, a victim, because there are two counts for each of the 12 deceased victims jurors will decide on either murder in the first degree after deliberation or they will decide on murder in the first degree with extreme indifference. As for the 70 people that were wounded in the shooting, also two counts each, attempted murder in the first degree, or attempted murder in the first degree with extreme indifference. Also, one count for possession or control of an explosive or incendiary device.

There is a lot at stake and it means so much to all of these families. If James Holmes is convicted of first degree murder, the same jury will have to decide whether he lives or dies. Let's talk about the legal view with CNN legal analyst Paul Callan, a criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor. Also with us, Remi Spencer, a criminal defense attorney and a former prosecutor.

Guys, I want to get to something that stood out to me and my team in these jury instructions. They are long and a lot of them typical. But here is something that isn't in every jury instruction in a case like this. Number 25, quote, "if the defendant is found not guilty by reason of insanity, it will be this court's duty to commit him to the custody of Colorado Department of Human Services until such time as the court determines that he is eligible for release."

Paul, to you, does this mean there is a possibility that James Holmes could be back out on the street?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, classically, the way insanity defenses work - and the whole idea behind an insanity defense is that if you are insane, you can't formulate the criminal intent to commit the crime, as required, and you get cured in a hospital, you should be released. And as a matter of fact, that's happen many, many times throughout the United States. And that's, of course, the big thing that jurors fear. Now, in Colorado, what's unusual, this charge is kind of telling them

that if you find him to be insane, there's the possibility of release in the future. Usually juries are not told that.

HARLOW: They're prompting them, keep in mind, if you do this, x could happen.

Remi, to you, when you look at murder in the first degree or murder in the first degree with extreme indifference, talk to me about the difference between the charges and what it means ultimately for sentencing.

REMI SPENCER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, of course, the sentencing is the biggest issue. The more serious the charge, the more serious the penalty. We know that in this case the state has come out and said that should he be convicted of the top charge, they're seeking the death penalty. If the jury agrees with the state's evidence and believes that he committed these acts with extreme indifference, they will then convict him of the most serious counts and be in a position to later determine whether he gets the death penalty.

HARLOW: Paul, to you, the importance or the significance because I think all of these families think it - of course it's with extreme indifference for the lives of our loved ones. Does it make a legal difference or a sentencing difference if that is part of the - what they find?

CALLAN: Well, yes, it does. I mean and it will support a much more severe sentence being handed down in the case. And, frankly, in a case like this where there was such elaborate planning in connection with this -

HARLOW: Right.

CALLAN: And the escape and the wiring of his apartment and all of the things that came out in this very, very long trial, it's hard to believe a jury will find him insane or not find that this was extreme indifference.

HARLOW: And that really goes to the heart of it, because he bought the movie ticket 12 days beforehand, right? He had all of this body armor on. He rigged his apartment with explosives.

Remi, how hard is it for the defense to prove that no that is not sort of knowledgeable planning and knowing the difference between right and wrong, right?

SPENCER: Yes.

HARLOW: If he didn't think he was going to be maybe attacked by police afterwards, why would he buy the body armor? Doesn't that show a thinking forward of right and wrong and how to prevent against things?

[12:24:58] SPENCER: I think you hit the nail on the head. That's exactly right. It's going to be very difficult for this defense to convince the jury that what they've seen in this trial is anything other than a calculated, premeditated understanding of what his conduct was going to lead to. Some of the most obvious and common sense facts in the case would lead a reasonable person, I think, to believe that, well, yes, he might be mentally ill, well, yes, he might be psychotic, he still was able to differentiate between right and wrong. He was still able to form the intent. He propped the door in the theater open in order to get a - get away after he committed these crimes. What other evidence, one might ask, would a jury need to know that he planned, not just to do this, but to escape capture because he knew it was wrong. So the defense certainly has a big challenge in this case.

HARLOW: Uphill - uphill to climb.

Thank you very much, Paul Callan, Remi Spencer as well, we appreciate it.

Tomorrow on the program, I should note, one of the family members, the parents of one of the victims, one of the young women shot and killed, will join us to talk about this. They've been in the courtroom for the entire trial.

Coming up next, this story, a judge ordering the release of video of a tragic police shooting. Two years of fighting over whether this video should be released or not. It has just been released. We're going to show it to you and talk about it on the other side.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:30:00] HARLOW: Welcome back to LEGAL VIEW.

A federal judge has released dash cam video of a deadly police shooting in California. It happened in 2013 and it is footage of the Gardena (ph) Police Department that they didn't want the public to see. There are two recordings