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Four Marines Killed in Tennessee. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired July 16, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:05]

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: No indication that any military personnel at this point were killed in this incident.

And the reason they say this to us is, as you would expect, I think as all Americans would expect, the military has a very strict protocol if someone is killed, some member of the U.S. military service. It is reported very quickly through their chain of command all the way to the Pentagon.

This is a very strict protocol. And at this hour, they have no information that any military personnel were killed in this incident. What we are told is their best sense of it, at this point, is that one sailor and one Marine were injured in the incident. They are believed to be in good condition at this point.

That is the best information the Pentagon has right now. Now, what they are telling us, again, and I think many people are reporting this at CNN, is that this began at 10:50 this,morning when an unidentified...

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

ANDY BERKE (D), MAYOR OF CHATTANOOGA, TENNESSEE: ... two different locations, people who proudly serve our country.

Over the last couple of hours, I have spent a lot of time with individuals who work for the city of Chattanooga and for Hamilton County who work at our medical facility at Erlanger who proudly deserve our thanks and praise for the way that they responded.

They were amazing in what they did. And we know of no active issues right now. We do know that we have four individuals who were killed who are victims. We know that the shooter was killed at the scene as well. Also, one Chattanooga police officer was shot in the ankle and has been treated very well at Erlanger, as well as there were some other individuals who have been shot and have also been treated.

I want to say again, it is incomprehensible to see what happened and the way that individuals who proudly serve our country were treated. Two different locations, this individual went to. And as a city, we will respond to this with every available resource that we have.

I have behind me individuals from the FBI, the ATF, Hamilton County, Chattanooga Police Department, the U.S. attorney, every single resource that we can summon. This is, as I said, a nightmare for the city of Chattanooga, but one to which we will respond. With that, I will give...

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

BERKE: That's a fifth person.

Chief?

FRED FLETCHER, CHATTANOOGA, TENNESSEE, POLICE CHIEF: Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

The mayor shared all the details of the incident and the investigation that we're prepared to share right now. I would like to echo his apology for taking a while to get to you all. Our primary concern was the welfare of our community, checking on our officers and making sure that we coordinated with our partners from the county, the state and the federal government.

What we do know is that somebody brutally and brazenly attacked members of our armed services and that officers of the Chattanooga Police Department and the Hamilton County Sheriff's Office responded immediately and they were able to make sure that no further loss of life happened.

I'm extremely proud of them and the community of Chattanooga for making sure that we responded in a timely and a courageous manner. Thank you.

BILL KILLIAN, U.S. ATTORNEY: I'm Bill Killian, the United States attorney for the Eastern District of Tennessee.

This is a sad day for the United States. These service members served their country with pride and they have been the victims of these shootings. We are conducting this as an act of domestic terrorism. The FBI is now in charge of this investigation. And I will turn over, when I get through, to the special agent in charge, Ed Reinhold, to discuss with you what he can and what he will about this ongoing investigation.

I have nothing but praise and admiration and congratulations to the City of Chattanooga Police Department, Hamilton County Sheriff's Department, for their quick and effective and efficient response.

We have a combined federal, state, and local investigation. We cannot and will not share facts of that investigation with you. At such time that we can admit certain facts or present certain facts in evidence to you, we will.

[15:05:10]

That investigation will be a joint one with ATF coordinating, ATF -- I'm sorry -- with FBI coordinating with ATF, Homeland Security, Tennessee's Department of Homeland Security, Chattanooga Police Department, and others.

Again, we are treating this as an act of domestic terrorism -- Ed.

ED REINHOLD, FBI SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE: Afternoon.

Again, I want to echo the mayor and the chief's comments and the U.S. attorney's comments, and that is that the response by the local law enforcement was overwhelming. They were able to neutralize the threat and there is no longer a threat to the community that we're aware of.

We will conduct a thorough investigation in concert with the Chattanooga Police Department and our other partners to make sure that this matter is completely resolved. That's all I have.

So, I don't know if anybody else wants to speak. It's Ed Reinhold. I'm the special agent in charge of the FBI.

QUESTION: Could you or the chief put further some perspective on how the gunman ended up dead? Was it at his own hands or a member of law enforcement or...

REINHOLD: At this point, I'm not going to discuss any of that. Again, we're in the preliminary stages of this investigation. We have active crime scenes that we're investigating right now.

We have a significant amount of resources. Both the FBI and Chattanooga Police Department, and other agencies have dedicated significant resources. We expect probably by the end of the day, we will have several hundred FBI resources on scene to conduct this investigation.

QUESTION: You can't tell us if he shot himself or someone shot him?

REINHOLD: No, at this point, again, we have not conducted a complete crime scene investigation.

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

REINHOLD: I have a suspicion to the answer to that question. But, again, I want to make sure the evidence confirms anything that we can say.

QUESTION: Are we currently at a threat level?

REINHOLD: No, no higher threat level than we were before.

(CROSSTALK)

REINHOLD: I'm sorry.

QUESTION: Can you confirm the two different locations?

REINHOLD: There were two separate locations. Both of them were military facilities, both Naval Reserve facilities here in Chattanooga.

QUESTION: Is there any kind of timeline for which shooting happened first?

REINHOLD: We believe the one over on Lee Highway occurred first and then -- and I believe this is probably part of the record. Chattanooga P.D. began pursuit of the individual and it ended at the second Naval facility.

QUESTION: Where exactly were the Marines killed?

REINHOLD: All of the victims that were killed were over at the Naval Reserve Center on -- how do you say that -- Amnicola Highway.

QUESTION: Were there victims wounded and not killed in the exchange?

REINHOLD: Yes. There are some victims that are being treated at local hospitals. I believe a total of three, including the police officer.

QUESTION: Is there any indication that this might be tied to the trial of (OFF-MIKE) that's going on?

REINHOLD: We have no indication that it's tied to anything at this point.

QUESTION: Do you know if the suspect is local from Chattanooga?

REINHOLD: We believe he's probably from this area or at least is residing in this area prior to the event.

QUESTION: Do you know where he was living?

REINHOLD: No, not at this point.

QUESTION: Does he have a military background himself?

REINHOLD: Not that we're aware of. But, again, let me emphasize this is a brand-new investigation. We have received a lot of information to this point that we're trying to process. We want to make sure we get it right before we start releasing any type of information to the public.

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) why you think it's domestic terrorism? That's a strong statement to make this early.

REINHOLD: No. We will treat this as a terrorism investigation until it can be determined that it was not.

QUESTION: What was the suspect armed with?

REINHOLD: Numerous weapons, and I'm not going to go into details as to what those were.

QUESTION: Was he wearing body armor?

REINHOLD: Not that I'm aware of.

QUESTION: Nothing bolt action, right? All semiauto?

REINHOLD: Again, I'm not going to discuss what he had on him at the time.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

REINHOLD: Because the families have not been notified, we're still in the process of processing the scene, I'm not going to release any particulars about the victims at this point.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) Does that rule out any link to possible ISIS maybe?

REINHOLD: No. We are looking at every possible avenue, whether it was terrorism, whether it's domestic, international, or whether it was a simple criminal act. We're looking at that.

QUESTION: Do you believe the shooter has accomplices in Chattanooga?

REINHOLD: Again, we're at the beginning of this investigation. We have not ruled out any possibilities at this point.

[15:10:05]

QUESTION: How can we follow up? How can we get more info?

REINHOLD: You can contact the public affairs officer at our Knoxville office or you can contact our headquarters in Washington, D.C.,

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) You have not determined that it's an act of domestic terrorism?

REINHOLD: Correct. We have not determined -- we have not determined whether it was an act of terrorism or whether it was a criminal act.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

REINHOLD: Again, I'm not going to discuss him at this point, because we have active investigations, and I don't want to put any of my personnel or the Chattanooga P.D.'s personnel in any type of -- at risk at this point.

(CROSSTALK)

REINHOLD: Pardon me?

QUESTION: Did the shooter die on Amnicola?

REINHOLD: He did, yes.

QUESTION: How many rounds did he shoot?

REINHOLD: We don't know yet.

QUESTION: What time did the two different incidents happened?

REINHOLD: It started probably around 10:45 and ended within 30 minutes.

QUESTION: Are there any other military (OFF-MIKE) maybe on lockdown or on alert at this time?

REINHOLD: We have notified the facilities -- the other military facilities in the state of Tennessee or within the area. It was their decision whether or not they wanted to go into lockdown or not.

QUESTION: What's the difference between a terrorist investigation -- or a terrorism investigation and a crime investigation?

REINHOLD: The investigation itself, probably not a whole lot of difference. It's just the determination of the motivation.

QUESTION: So the motive determines whether it's terrorism or just crime?

REINHOLD: Correct.

QUESTION: And what's the difference between the two?

REINHOLD: A disgruntled employee, for example. And I'm just using that example because he did not work at the facilities.

But a disgruntled employee would not be necessarily an act of terrorism. But if he's motivated by, say, ISIL or somebody else, then that would be an act of terrorism.

QUESTION: Have you determined any kind of motive or if he had any connection to any of the Marines that were killed?

REINHOLD: We have not, no.

QUESTION: Did he have other targets in Chattanooga?

REINHOLD: Not that we're aware of.

QUESTION: Are people still locked down in businesses? Is that lockdown lifted, or is it at the discretion of the business?

REINHOLD: Chief?

FLETCHER: We have officers from this -- from my jurisdiction, from the Hamilton County Sheriff's Office and from neighboring jurisdictions making sure everybody in this community wherever they are is safe. Those decisions are made with the business owners and the homeowners. The decisions are made for the specific conditions of that area. We have sent units to every place that might need them. And we're prepared to respond to anybody who does.

QUESTION: So, is it possible people could be staying the night at their place of business?

FLETCHER: Absolutely. And if they need help, they should call 911. And Chattanooga Police Department is here to help them.

QUESTION: Are recruitment centers considered gun-free zones?

REINHOLD: I don't know the answer to that. It's federal property. And, typically, someone cannot bring a weapon into federal property unless they're authorized to do so.

QUESTION: What steps are going to happen now in the investigation?

REINHOLD: Well, obviously, we're going to look at the shooter. We're going to do an intense look at him to see if -- what his connections are. We will look at his friends, families, associates, anybody who is associated with him to determine the cause or the reason why he conducted this attack.

QUESTION: Will surveillance metadata from the NSA and other secret agencies spying on us be used to determine his -- his use of his phone, his use of his computer, his searches and other things like that?

(CROSSTALK)

REINHOLD: I would say the FBI will use any and all means available to conduct a thorough investigation.

QUESTION: How old was the suspect?

REINHOLD: I don't know yet.

QUESTION: Did he have a phone?

REINHOLD: I'm not going to discuss what he had with him at the time.

QUESTION: Was Chattanooga ever designated a no-fly zone today?

REINHOLD: I believe there was a no-fly zone over the area of the crime scene.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) any reason to believe others were involved?

REINHOLD: No, we believe it was a single shooter at this point. No reason to believe anybody else was involved at this time.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

REINHOLD: It's about a 15-mile distance, so probably five minutes between the two shootings.

(CROSSTALK)

REINHOLD: He was in a vehicle, but I'm not going to describe it. You have probably already seen it.

QUESTION: Was there any prior indication that there might be an attack today?

REINHOLD: No, we had no intelligence indicating there would be any type of attack today.

QUESTION: The officer who was shot, was he responding to a shooting or was he ambushed?

REINHOLD: He was involved in the pursuit and engaged the individual at Amnicola, the location there.

QUESTION: Is that the officer who was injured in the gunfire?

REINHOLD: I believe it is, yes.

Chief?

FLETCHER: There were numerous Chattanooga and Hamilton County officers who responded. They arrived on the scene extremely quickly and they actively and enthusiastically engaged this brazen criminal.

And one of those officers was injured by gunfire from this criminal.

QUESTION: So you don't know if it's the same officer who pursued from the first location?

FLETCHER: We are confirming that. There were several officers involved. They were -- they responded very, very quickly.

[15:15:01]

This incident occurred very close to where you're standing right now, which shows the brazen nature of the act. And the police officers came from around this community to make sure that everybody here is safe.

KILLIAN: Let me say one more thing.

Do not get caught up in labels. The FBI and the other agencies are going to investigate this case thoroughly. They will determine after the facts are determined whether it's an act of terrorism at all, whether it's a crime and what the nature of that crime is, or whether it's a combination of those.

And I would encourage you to not put a label to the investigation at this point, whether it be international, domestic or any other kind of terrorism, including criminal acts.

QUESTION: I have got a question. The illegal federal spying system from the NSA is very good at forensic recreation of crimes and arrangements and plots. How was that -- was that system at all in play in trying to head this off or was there any word on that -- the buildup of this confrontation?

KILLIAN: I will tell you that the FBI and the other agencies will utilize every resource and every personnel they have to thoroughly investigate that case. And they are doing that as we speak. And they will continue to.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) the shooter was former military?

KILLIAN: We don't have any information on that. No comment.

QUESTION: Are you going (OFF-MIKE) his home to see if he had anything there? Is there any type of investigation going on there right now?

KILLIAN: The FBI and the other agencies are thoroughly investigating this case. They will use every mechanism, every procedure, and every available resource to do so.

REINHOLD: All right. Thank you all very much. And we will update you when we have something new to report.

KILLIAN: Thank you.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: We just heard from officials there on the ground in Chattanooga, Tennessee, with some new information.

Here's what we're learning, that four people were killed and also the gunman in addition to those four. They were killed at the Naval Reserve Center. The shooter, we're told, began the shooting at a strip mall where the recruitment center is and then a chase ensued, with law enforcement pursuing the shooter. And then four people were killed at that Naval Reserve Center. There was about a five-minute time span in between the two shootings and the shooter was killed at that scene.

Officials say that he lived in the area. The shooter apparently lived in the area, the mayor saying that this is a "nightmare." The prosecutor also saying that this was an act of terrorism and then sort of backtracked on that. There's a big question on that we're going to analyze in just a moment right after we go to our correspondent Barbara Starr, because she has some new information -- Barbara.

STARR: Pamela, a senior defense official has just told us that they now can confirm, indeed, that the four personnel killed were, indeed, United States Marines.

The Pentagon saying very quietly that, yes, they were there were four Marines that were killed in this incident, their families, of course, at this hour now being notified. So this is automatically a very sensitive situation, as you can imagine, for the U.S. military.

We talked a few minutes ago about how the Pentagon would know very quickly if any of its personnel were killed. It apparently took some time for this word to filter through the system, through the Marine Corps, through the military services and come to the Pentagon.

The information we are being given is that the four Marines were killed at the second shooting site, not at the strip mall site, but the shooter apparently then drove to another site, a support facility, fired there and the indication that the Pentagon has is that this is where the Marines were killed. In addition -- and I think it was addressed in the press conference,

the military going now through all of its databases with the identity of the shooter, which we do not know, to see if this person potentially had any prior military service.

But this incident began shortly before 11:00 this morning East Coast time, when this still unidentified male drove up to this strip mall recruiting station, opened fire through the door. We see that door full of bullet holes.

There was a military person injured there, and then drove on to this other site a short distance away and, apparently, by all accounts now, according to the Pentagon, four Marines killed there.

At the moment, the Pentagon not really able to answer whether they are treating this as an incident of terrorism. Certainly, law enforcement, domestic law enforcement taking the major lead role in this, but they are looking to see, could the shooter have had prior military service?

[15:20:10]

Is there anything that they might know about this person that would help them understand and explain what happened here, Pamela?

BROWN: Barbara Starr reporting there that four Marines were killed in that shooting at that Naval Reserve Center. Barbara Starr, thank you very much.

I'm now going to bring in CNN's Victor Blackwell. He's at the shooting at that strip mall where this all began.

Victor, what can you tell us?

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Pamela, seemingly on queue, just as we heard from authorities that this is now a federal investigation and that federal authorities would be taking a large role here, those federal authorities showed up.

The number of personnel and investigators here on the scene on Lee Highway doubled, possibly tripled in that time. We saw the handshakes. If you take a look over here -- Steve, we didn't plan this, but look over here just in the parking lot. You have got some members of the military who are now leaving the scene.

I can see that was a reporter I know who is on scene who isn't -- they're not speaking with them. But we have seen the ATF show up here. We have several members of the local sheriff's office and the police department. But, again, this is a federal investigation and they showed up in force.

One person also who showed up here, Pamela, is Chris Carpenter.

Chris, come in for just a moment, if you will, 26 years old, has lived in this community his whole life.

And tell me what you came here to do and why you came here, Chris?

CHRIS CARPENTER, RESIDENT: I came here to place flowers here at this unfortunate scene here in our city and recognition that comes from my family and myself, just to show that my heart goes out to the people who have lost their lives and the people who are injured.

BLACKWELL: Now, you have told me that your friends have a connection to this location.

CARPENTER: A few of them do, yes. A few of them do.

BLACKWELL: How so?

CARPENTER: Well, a lot of them are Marines. My best friend, he's in the National Guard and I was letting him know about some of the things that happened today and he actually had to report to work because he's a police officer.

BLACKWELL: Now, you told me off camera that they were recruited through this office. Is that true?

CARPENTER: Yes. A few of them were. One of my friends actually worked there before she got stationed off to California.

BLACKWELL: Now, when you heard about this, you were not too far from this location, but you had to check on family near the other location. Tell me about that.

CARPENTER: That's right.

I was actually dining at a restaurant when it happened and I seen a few police cruisers whiz by. So, when I heard about it on the radio, I went home immediately to make sure that my family was OK.

BLACKWELL: Because you are very close to the Amnicola location?

CARPENTER: Yes. The Amnicola location is down an hour, well, maybe a couple of miles away from where my parents live.

BLACKWELL: OK. All right. Chris Carpenter, thank you so much for coming to speak with us, came here to place flowers. And we will see. We now know how officially the city and this country is responding to what is happening.

We will now see over the next few hours how the people of Chattanooga and this country are going to respond to this heinous act that happened here today -- back to you, Pamela.

BROWN: Victor Blackwell, thank you so much.

And as we just learned, four Marines killed in this shooting.

We got a lot of information from this press conference that I want to talk about with our panel here, Juliette Kayyem, Harry Houck and Jonathan Gilliam, law enforcement analyst, here. What really jumped out at me is first we hear from the prosecutor

saying that this is an act of domestic terrorism. He really didn't mince words there. Then the FBI SAC comes out and says we actually don't know if it's international terrorism, domestic terrorism. We're not ready to say that. Then the prosecutor comes back and sort of pulls back on what he said before.

Juliette, what do you make of all of that?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: As a legal matter, there's a difference between terror, which this clearly was, and terrorism.

(CROSSTALK)

KAYYEM: You don't just say it's domestic terrorism and then not explain why.

Look, if this was a vendetta, someone who tried to join the military and then didn't get in and then shoots a bunch of military people and kills them, that is terror, but it's not terrorism as a legal issue.

BROWN: What would make it terrorism?

(CROSSTALK)

KAYYEM: If you kill -- the legal technical terms are the killing of noncombatants for political purposes. It gets a little bit more technical than that, but essentially that's it.

Not every active shooter case is terrorism. To just say that and then step away suggests to me that either someone whispered in his ear, don't say that, and come back and sort of let's do one step at a time, because we just -- motive -- it's all about motive and we don't know motive yet.

BROWN: But does it make you think, Jonathan, that maybe they know more than they are letting on? Because that's a pretty strong statement to come out and say that, that this is an act of domestic terrorism.

JONATHAN GILLIAM, FORMER U.S. NAVY SEAL: And things are also breaking. This is an active, active investigation.

BROWN: And they are still trying to piece this together.

GILLIAM: And one thing you have to realize, as you were just saying about the terrorism, is, terrorism is a tactic.

[15:25:03]

It's a tactic used to change the political atmosphere. Terror is something that you inflict on somebody by doing something, a crime. So when you do inflict terrorism, you're actually using terror to inflict political change. That's going to be huge. Whether or not it was motivated by somebody who lives inside of the United States and has a vendetta against the government or if it's somebody who is connected to an international terrorism type of group like ISIS, that's going to be the difference between international and domestic terror.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Which is an important distinction to make.

But, Harry, no matter how you look at this, this is a tragedy. Four Marines have been killed.

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Right.

I'm a Marine. This really is hitting me a little harder here than normal that they weren't able to protect themselves at the time that this occurred and we're going to have to start having security at these locations all the time now. We need people that are armed.

The police were chasing him at the time when he got there. And he still got a couple rounds off and able to -- I'm not saying the police did anything wrong because they acted admirably here, but the fact is that we need these places protected. We need armed people at these locations and we're lucky this is not on a Friday, because usually reserves come on a Friday night or Friday afternoon.

And there would probably be dozens and dozens of people there.

BROWN: Juliette, are you surprised? Go ahead.

KAYYEM: Just to pick up on your point, sort of this recruitment facility is sort of a perfect soft target, because it's not fortified like a military base or a National Guard base.

And yet it is symbolic for a variety of reasons. And that's what makes this a sort of big issue. It could be terrorism. We don't know yet. But certainly the other thing I would add is, this is now going to make the Pentagon have to rethink its force protection, because generally recruitment facilities are sort of left open because they are kind of like H.R. places. Right?

You bring people in, you try to convince them to join the military. The Pentagon is now going to have to think about protection of these sites, which will of course be investments in protecting the military writ large.

BROWN: But, Jonathan, are you surprised, given the fact that there have been all of these threats against U.S. military in recent months? The FBI has been sending out warnings repeatedly because ISIS has been pushing for the killings of military members. Are you surprised that these recruiting centers, these military facilities are not better protected and that something like this could happen?

GILLIAM: Am I surprised about it? No. Is it a letdown? Yes.

And the reason I'm not surprised about it is because we have inflicted upon ourselves a little bit of overexcess of political correctness when it comes to understanding what defense is. People don't want to -- they don't want to see these types of things.

But this is a strip mall. Today could have easily -- when it comes to terrorism, the strip mall itself could have easily been a target. But, as we can see, this is the government that is the target here. These installations are just open invitations to come here. If you don't like the military, come here and attack here because there's no security here.

And for some reason, they let Marines in this case, they train them to carry weapons into battle and to defend justice, but when they come home, for some reason they are not capable of carrying a weapon? I think that's something that we serious need to look at.

HOUCK: It's something we may need to do.

BROWN: I'm sure this will raise a lot of those questions and certainly spark some debate here.

I want to bring in now James Fitzgerald, a retired FBI special agent and criminal profiler.

Thanks for being on with us, James.

I first want to ask you, as we just discussed, in the press conference, we heard the prosecutor say that initially that this was an act of domestic terrorism and then sort of backtrack on that. But what -- in the FBI, what would make it an act of domestic terrorism and how would that change the investigation at all or inform the investigation?

JAMES FITZGERALD, FORMER FBI AGENT: Well, as the FBI SAC stated when he had a chance to talk, the investigation that is taking place right now is your very basic crime scene investigation.

They're looking at the outer perimeter. They're going to the inner perimeter of both scenes. And actually there are at least four scenes, where the two shootings occurred, where the death of the gunman occurred, as well as where he lived.

And there may even be multiple sub-crime scenes after that. So there's all kinds of investigations. I don't think anybody in the FBI right now at the command center that is in the process of being set up is really concerned with, are we working a domestic terrorism, international? Let's get the facts. Let's collect evidence. And that's where this whole thing is going to come together.

And down the line, it can be determined otherwise. But right now, the worker bees are just worried about, of course, everybody safe, let's collect the evidence, let's find out what this guy's motivation may have been.

BROWN: But I think, for people, they want to know, because there's been so much talk about terrorism, ISIS pushing to target the media -- I mean, the military and the media, frankly.

So how would you go about in the investigation determining or ruling out, ruling in whether it's domestic terrorism, whether it's international terrorism?

FITZGERALD: Sure.

Well, there is going to be a psychological autopsy conducted on this gunman. And we know -- or at least we in the public know nothing about this guy right now.