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Verdict Reached in Holmes Trial; Shooting in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired July 16, 2015 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00] JAMES FITZGERALD, WORKED ON DC SNIPER INVESTIGATION: We, in the public, know nothing about this guy right now. And obviously, it's been stated by your panel earlier, everything this guy owned from the letters he's been receiving, sending out, any way that that can be determined, but certainly online, the internet, a cell phone activity, who he's talking to, where he has visited.

This guy was obviously mission oriented. He had two targets today, maybe even a third one set up. He may not have expected to get past the first one and he was ready to fight it out with the police then or take himself out. We don't know if this was suicide by cop, suicide indirectly by military. We don't know his cause of death yet.

But he made it to two targets at least and you know there was some preplanning here with the number of weaponry he had with him and the caliber of weapon that could obviously penetrate flake glass windows and sustain the damage that he wanted done.

So his motivation will tell us a whole lot more about this guy and whether this was a representational target that just overall in the military is something he wanted to get at or one of these places or actually any one of these people were the ones that he actually had in mind. And maybe he wasn't sure where this person was on a certain day, but he's going to take out as many of these places as he could.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: James Fitzgerald, we are going to have to leave it there. Thank you so much.

We're actually following some other breaking news out of Colorado. A verdict has been reached in the trial of James Holmes. That's the suspect in that Aurora, Colorado Theater shooting hearing. We are going to touch on that. And of course, talk about the shooting, what more we are learning is right after this quick break.

Stay with us as we continue to follow all of this breaking news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:35:45] BROWN: We are following breaking news on two major stories. The first, a devastating loss in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Four marines have been killed in a shooting there, we have learned. And we're going to take you back to the scene in just a moment.

But first, more breaking news out of Colorado. A jury has just reached the verdict in the trial of James Holmes, the man who shot and killed 12 people and injured 70 others at a crowded movie theater in Aurora, Colorado, three years ago.

I'm going to go straight to CNN's Ana Cabrera right outside the courthouse in Centennial, Colorado -- Ana.

ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, there, Pamela.

We learned this news just a few minutes ago. The court tweeting out that they would be announcing what the verdict is or that it would be read in court in about two-and-a-half hours from now. And again, this jury of nine women and three men are considering 165 charges. This case all focused on whether or not the shooter, James Holmes, was sane at the time of the crime, which happened, remember, almost three years ago. It was July 20th, 2012, when he admittedly walked into a crowded theater for that midnight showing of the new Batman movie at the time, "the Dark Knight Rises," and he open fire using three different firearms, a handgun, a rifle as well as a shotgun killing 12 people, injuring 70 others.

Now, this jury deliberated for about 14 hours and 40 minutes before announcing they had reached a verdict. That verdict, again, expected to be read on all 165 counts at 4:00 local time. So in about two-and- a-half hours from now, Pam.

BROWN: Ana Cabrera for us in Colorado, thank you so much. I know you will keep us posted there.

We want to go back to our other big breaking news story we are following. That's the shooting in Chattanooga, Tennessee, shootings at two different locations. One shooter who is now deceased. He was killed at the scene, according to authorities. And we have learned the heartbreaking news that four marines were killed at the naval reserve center, the site of the second shooting there in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

I want to bring in Neal Pinkston, district attorney general for Hamilton County in Tennessee.

Neil, as I just mentioned that the sad, sad news that four marines were killed. Where does the investigation go from here? Neal, can you hear me?

NEAL PINKSTON, DISTRICT ATTORNEY GENERAL, HAMILTON COUNTY, TENNESSEE (via phone): Yes, ma'am.

BROWN: OK, just, if you would, help us understand, now that we know the shooter is deceased, four marines have been killed, where does the investigation go from here?

PINKSTON: Apparently the FBI is in charge of coordinating the investigation. The FBI along with the ATF as well as local state and law enforcement agencies will be assisting their lead.

BROWN: OK Neal, can you give us any understanding? Because we heard in the press conference that the shooter apparently lived in the area. Can you give us any understanding, at this early stage of the investigation, what the motivation may have been, whether the shooter had any ties to the military?

PINKSTON: I have no information with regard to the motive. It's too early in the investigation to determine that. But hopefully through time it will be developed.

BROWN: Earlier when the shooting began around 10:50, I'm sure you were alerted very early on, can you tell us how it was as things were unfolding, shootings at two different places, as we see right here, a naval reserve center and a few miles away that military recruiting center where it all began. Tell us what unfolded earlier today there in Chattanooga.

PINKSTON: Well, I was at the office and started getting a bunch of phone calls and messages that the Lee highway shooting was first followed by the shooting on Amnicola highway where everything ended. And the Amnicola highway area where the shooting occurred is no more than a mile from the city police department and the 911 center and the fire department.

BROWN: OK.

PINKSTON: So it's just been kind of a huge influx of law enforcement and lots of information that we've been trying to process.

[15:39:55] BROWN: Yes, I know. A lot of law enforcement converged on that area there. And the FBI now leading the investigation.

Neal Pinkston, thank you very much.

And I want to bring in our panel now to discuss more about this investigation.

Juliette Kayyem, Harry Houck, Jonathan Gilliam, thanks for coming back to us.

First to you, Juliette, I just keep thinking, these are four marines, the naval reserve center, killed in this shooting. How does something like this happen?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, this is probably a well-planned attack, or something that the assailant had been at least trying to figure out where will the military be and when can I get them when they are unarmed.

Now, there is a history, I know a lot of people are wondering why aren't the marines armed? Now, there is a history, a legal history, to why military, uniform military personnel are not armed by the pentagon when not in sort of the conduct of war. It's a law called (INAUDIBLE) law. We generally, unlike Latin American countries, we generally do not have military with guns walking around domestic streets or shopping malls, as we've seen.

And so, that's why they are unarmed. They are also unarmed generally because these are shopping malls, these are, you know, recruitment centers are in shopping malls, they are sort of open, they are in places where you wouldn't anticipate an attack. This is clearly going to make the Pentagon have to rethink a variety

of rules regarding the security of the recruitment centers as well as the arming of military personnel when they are doing a military function like recruiting soldiers.

So there was a reason for it. It may seem odd, why aren't they armed? And so, I just want to make it clear to viewers, that's history.

BROWN: Those people are wondering that. How can something like this happen?

Jonathan, we know that the military is the target of, you know, threats, a lot of threats, especially recently, on the terrorism front, on the ISIS front. You would think that there would be some more security, more protection. Do you think that these military facilities like the recruitment center, like the reserve center are soft targets for people who want to go after the military?

JONATHAN GILLIAM, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Absolutely. I mean, they are the definition of a soft target and they are the definition of a soft target that's been attacked again and again.

I mean, we just have to come to a realization that recruitment centers are basically an unprotected arm or branch of the government that is easily accessible. It's a catch 22 because you have to be accessible in order for people to come in and sign up or get information. However, milking them into strip malls or into facilities where a lot of people go, which are also soft targets, what you are doing now, you're literally not recognizing the potential threats and you are taking that, because you're not recognizing it, and you are sticking it right in the middle of where massive amounts of civilians go every day.

These are things that have to be rethought. And you know, for all of the attorneys out there, we kind have to need to start looking around what is legally correct and what is going to have to be effective because things are changing in this world.

KAYYEM: Right. So I'm just trying to explain to viewers I want to explain to viewers why there are these rules. What I want to make clear, though, is I don't think it's a good idea to sort of throw away 100-plus years of tradition ten minutes after four marines were killed. So that's why there is this balancing going on.

It may very well be that the Pentagon ought to rethink what it considers as soft targets and what it wants to protect more. But - I mean, we're essentially a couple hours out of a major killing. And so --.

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Right. But we've always got to wait until an attack occurs before we do anything. We're not proactive, you know, where we at.

GILLIAM: And there could be police substation in the facility.

HOUCK: Right. A police officer can go there. They can have military police there. They can have military police in plain clothes, something like that, where these guys can be guarded so something like this doesn't occur.

BROWN: And what strikes me, you know, the bottom line is, four marines have lost their lives. This was done by one person. This is what I've been hearing from my law enforcement sources as the big fear. You have a soft target like a recruitment center. And this is a relatively unsophisticated attack what we are seeing here. I mean, you know.

HOUCK: This is why we are so vulnerable. I mean, any lone gunman can go out and buy an automatic weapon or a semiautomatic weapon and unload it somewhere and that's what is really scary about these attacks. And we have no way of finding out about this. Just one guy plans it himself, and says, OK, Friday I'm going out. I'm going to shoot up the recruitment center or mall, that's what is very dangerous about this.

BROWN: And we know that law enforcement actively investigating right now, the FBI, as well as the ATF. And for that side of things, I want to bring in former ATF assistant director Mike Bouchard.

Mike, thanks for coming on to talk with us. Tell us right now what is happening with the ATF. We were just talking about the weapons used in this shooting. I imagine tracing those weapons is a key part of that investigation.

MIKE BOUCHARD, FORMER ATF ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Right. What's going on now with the incident commanders, they are setting up their command posts and making sure they have all of the components? There's a separate desk for investigative leads, a separate one for interviews, evidence, press, all of these different things. So right now, they are bringing together the experts that they have and they do have a lot of different experts from different agencies putting their team together so they can go out and start interviewing.

With respect to the rifle, they are going to, obviously, trace that gun, see if this person bought it himself or someone else bought it for him. If someone else bought it for him, they can obviously be an accessory. And they will also want to look at any other things, people he spoken to on social media, and see if he has any co- conspirators or see if they are plans to do any other ones.

[15:45:27] BROWN: And similar investigations -- because right now, you know, we're still waiting for a lot of information. Frankly, law enforcement is trying to figure it all out. But are there normally, Mike, prevent indicators, warning signs before we see situations like this?

BOUCHARD: Unfortunately, we find out there were after the incidents happen and it's often on social media and people tend to say, well, he did act a little crazy lately, or he was a little off the wall or he was making some idle threats, but I didn't take him seriously.

And DHS has the perfect models. See something, say something. The more we see of these incidents and hear later on of people who saw some signs ahead of time, we can avert some of the tragedies if people speak up sooner.

BROWN: You talked about the weapons trace of the rifle. Why is that so important? What can the trace tell us?

BOUCHARD: Well, the trace will tell us where the person -- who bought it and where they bought it. You know, if the person lied on the form, obviously he's dead, so it doesn't matter if he lied on the form. But if he had someone else buy it for him, that's very important because that called (INAUDIBLE), makes that person an accessory now possibly to murder if they can prove that that person bought it knowing that this person was going to go out and commit a crime with it.

BROWN: OK. Mike Bouchard, former ATF assistant director, thank you very much.

And we are following two big breaking news stories. A verdict has been reached out of Colorado in the trial of James Holmes. And of course, we're also following the tragedy in Chattanooga, Tennessee, the death of four marines and the shooting right after this quick break we'll have more information. Be sure to stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:49:19] BROWN: Welcome back. We continue to follow the shooting in Chattanooga, Tennessee, where four marines have been killed. The shooter was killed at the scene. We're told by authorities.

We want to go to Victor Blackwell now. He is at one of the scenes, one of the scenes of where shooting happened.

Victor, I'm going to bring you in. You're at the strip mall there at the recruitment center. What are you seeing, what are you hearing there on the ground?

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I wasn't dialed in.

BROWN: We're having technical issues there.

Victor, can you hear me? OK. OK. We're going to go back to Victor soon. We're having some technical issues.

But I want to bring back our panel her, Juliette Kayyem, Jonathan Gilliam and Harry Houck.

As you look at the crime scene, here we are. We see evidence response team, we see members of the military.

Jonathan, if you are on the ground investigating this, as a former member of the FBI, what would you be doing? What stands out to you?

[15:50:14] GILLIAM: Well, I mean, it's going to go in several different directions very quickly because what you're doing is you are looking for pieces of a puzzle. Do you have evidence response team there, you have investigators who are being tasked with leads, you know. If they find out the identity of this individual, they're going to send that off to people that are going to start scrubbing all the databases, sources any open-source material, they are going to try to find Facebook, twitter accounts.

And so, you have investigators literally going like an explosion themselves out to all these different areas to collect this information to bring it back and say, hey, I have this piece of a puzzle. And another one says, I have got this piece. And then if they fit or maybe one piece is so big that it literally gives you three quarters of an entire picture, that's the ultimate piece that you're looking for. And often that's something that actually happens.

BROWN: And what is the priority as this investigation is happening? We have, as I said, the shooter is deceased, four marines have been killed, what's the priority?

KAYYEM: That there's not another assailant out there, number one priority. So, just going to your point, the dead suspect is sort of the middle of the bull's-eye. And right now, investigators are looking at every concentric circle to ensure that there is not a follow up attack, an immediate copycat or anything like that. That's priority number one, two and three, to be honest.

Then, because, honestly, the assailant is dead, then the investigation will be who did he know? Who was he working with? What were the reasons? Getting to motive. And that's why we're being careful about what we are calling this, because we just don't know anything right now in terms of --.

HOUCK: Identifying the shooter is like key. I mean, from once you have the shooter identified, then you can work out from there. We can go cell phone right, we can go in to his computer, we can go through his apartment, we can go talk to his friends, did any of his friends know anything about this, was there any indication that this was going to occur? Did somebody keep quiet knowing it is going to happen? These are some of the questions that are we are going to have to find out.

BROWN: I imagine it's a mad scramble among law enforcement to make sure that the threat is --.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I want to go back to the scene where one of the shootings happened and have our Victor Blackwell join us again. I think we worked out the technical issues. Are you there?

BLACKWELL: Yes, I'm here, Pamela.

You know, I had a conversation with the property manager here, as all of this is settling in of what happened today in Chattanooga. And he knows personally the people who worked inside the recruitment center here. In fact, he rushed here and then rushed in and snapped a couple pictures. I understand that we have those that we can put up.

And as bad as things look on the outside, and the bullet holes through the doors and windows, he said that he was just heartbroken when we walked in and saw the mess inside. That there were recruiters who were shuffling about to find out if everyone was OK. He says that on any given day there are about 15 to 18 recruiters inside this facility, for four branches of the military and the National Guard. On this day he says there was no one from the Navy inside, but again CNN has not been able to independently confirm that.

His name is Keith Whitley (ph). And he is the person who saw a gentleman outside who appeared to have been injured in this situation.

Let me come back live if we haven't already and show you what is happening here. First, if you can zoom into what is beginning to be a memorial here, we saw a man about an hour ago come and put some flowers under that tree. But if you see here under this lamppost, someone has brought a flag here, and a handwritten sign that just says, in our thoughts and prayers, and brought that vase of red roses here.

We've talked a lot over the last several hours, Pamela, about how the law enforcement here will respond, how police, the FBI, ATF, how they are responding. But over the next several hours and days, we are going to see how the people of this country and of this city are responding, and we're starting to get a glimpse of that now with the flowers and flag coming here. A few prayers, a little patriotism coming here, as we're seeing this investigation bloom with the ATF, the FBI, and all of the authorities coming here to figure out exactly what motivated this person to conduct the heinous act that happened here today.

BROWN: And it is remarkable. Thank you so much, Victor Blackwell. It's remarkable to see the damage there, the doors riddled with bullet holes, and the fact that no one was killed at this scene.

HOUCK: That's a miracle.

GILLIAM: Can I just say one thing following up to what you said earlier? I love when lawyers use technical terms because you said the assailant. And that's important here because we don't need this is still a fluid situation. Even though this shooter is dead and it was a male, we don't know the reality of the big picture of the situation. There could be follow-on attacks throughout the days. My biggest concern is that groups inspired by ISIS or other people who may take advantage and move on this, is that they're going to use females. They're going to use younger people. We have to start being aware -- we're not trying to scare tactics.

[15:55:11] BROWN: And we don't know. I just want to be transparent with our viewers. We don't know.

GILLIAM: If this could spurn our people to do this. And we have to realize that. And especially when it comes to terrorism, it could be a female.

KAYYEM: Whatever this is, any good law enforcement agency, and this is being run out of the FBI, it is always going to think could there be another? Because terrorist organization, as we know work in threes or fours or fives in terms of the sequential attacks. It doesn't mean that its terrorism, it just means if you want to know sort of what they are doing now, their biggest concern is that others in other recruitment facilities or either in Tennessee or nationwide aren't going to be sort of soft targets as well. And that's just basic law enforcement regardless of whether this is terrorism or not.

BROWN: Why is it important to rule in or rule out terrorism at this occasion?

KAYYEM: I don't care what we call it right now. I mean, all you want to do is make sure you protect as many citizens as possible, figure out who the guy is, figure out whether there might be other that are out there. And then the lawyers bringing the case can decide what it is, right? And so right now, people out on the field, they're just trying to --

(CROSSTALK)

HOUCK: And that's where we find out. I hate when they had these press conferences and they have several different groups out there talking, right? And one guys sticks his own foot in the mouth, all right? Then like this last one we had, all right. So, you know, they should have like one guy go out and talk, give us the information that we require and then back off.

BROWN: OK. Stand by. We've got to get some more information in today, more on the breaking news in just a moment. But first, we just received an update moments ago on the condition of former president George H.W. Bush. Doctors say he remains in fair condition after falling at his summer home in Maine. Bush 41 broke a vertebra in his neck. According to a family spokesman, he was never disoriented and the injury did not result in neurological problems. He is not expected to remain in the hospital for very long. President Obama we learned called Bush earlier today and wished him a speedy recovery.

We are going to be back with our breaking news out of the Chattanooga and Colorado right after this break. "The LEAD" starts next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:49:30] JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST, THE LEAD: Welcome to "the LEAD." I'm John Berman in for Jake Tapper. Today, an act of domestic terrorism. That's what a U.S. attorney calls the carnage in Chattanooga today. Shooting is first at a military recruitment center, then a naval research center just a few miles away. The Pentagon confirms that four marines were killed at the naval operations center. Three people wounded including a police officer who engaged the shooter.

City officials also say the attacker is dead. The FBI believes that the shooter acted alone and did live in Chattanooga area, at least leading up to this shooting.

It all started shortly before 11:00 a.m. this morning. It was one shot and then was just endless shot.

END