Return to Transcripts main page
Dr. Drew
James Holmes Has Now Been Found Guilty Of First-Degree Murder In The Deaths Of 12 People; Caitlyn Jenner Honored With The Arthur Ashe Courage Award At The Espy`s; Donald Trump Up Next, The More He Says The Higher He Goes In The Polls
Aired July 16, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(21:00:14) DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: We begin with breaking news. James Holmes, the killer who had dyed his hair like the joker from the
Batman series had opened fire in a Colorado Movie Theater. He has now been found guilty of first-degree murder in the deaths of 12 people. The jury
rejected the argument of not guilty by reason of insanity.
Joining me, Samantha Schacher, "Pop Trigger" on Hulu.com; Rolonda Watts, host of "Rolonda On Demand" Podcast; Mike Catherwood, my "Love Line"
and KABC radio co-host, and also the host of a new show of "Chain Reaction" on GSM. I have Anahita Sedaghatfar, defense attorney of counsel to the
Cochran firm. And, Anahita, I am going to start with you. Did the jury get this one right?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They got it absolutely right, because remember, Dr. Drew, this was not about who did this. This was like
you said about whether or not the jurors believed he was legally insane at the time of the killing.
PINSKY: Help people understand what legally insane is?
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: Because he was insane.
SEDAGHATFAR: He was insane. Well --
PINSKY: There is no doubt about insane, but legally insane?
SEDAGHATFAR: Right, so there is a specific meaning when you say legally insane in the law. That means that the defendant did not know the
difference between right from wrong at the time of the killings. So, he is mentally ill. We talked about that.
PINSKY: No doubt, this guy is schizophrenic.
SEDAGHATFAR: No question, right?
PINSKY: He really was delusional, but he was planning a murder systematically. And that is where they are saying he knew he was doing
something wrong and he knew it for a while.
SEDAGHATFAR: Absolutely, because if he was legally insane, it would mean that he snapped in that moment. He had a psychotic break, like maybe
he heard God speaking to him in that moment, telling him to kill these people. That is not what happened. There is evidence that he planned. He
plotted. He premeditated this.
PINSKY: And speaking of premeditated, this becomes now mitigating against the death penalty, right?
SEDAGHATFAR: Absolutely. Well, not that --
PINSKY: You think he is going to get the death penalty?
SEDAGHATFAR: I think he is going to get the death penalty and here is why. Because number one, the mitigating factor would be he is mentally
ill.
PINSKY: Right.
SEDAGHATFAR: The defense attorneys are going to play that up during the penalty phase. They are going to hope that the jurors sympathize of
him, because they are going to say, he does not know what he is doing. He is nuts.
PINSKY: Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: But you are talking about a very egregious, egregious crime. He murdered 12 people.
PINSKY: So, that is going to go to death?
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, that is going to go to death.
PINSKY: And, I say the system failed this guy. I mean he did a horrible, horrible things, but I guarantee once the truth is out about the
story, we are going to hear about a psychiatrist who is desperately trying to get him placed somewhere, against his will, but could not get the system
to cooperate with her. I guarantee we are going to hear something like that, because it was obvious. Any physician would know this guy was going
to harm himself or somebody else.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, she has tried to report it. The psychiatrist tried to report this to the school. She tried to send the letters, the notebook,
nothing was done. And, that goes, again, to the thing that you always complain about it, that physicians and doctors cannot make somebody get
treatment if they do not want to get it.
PINSKY: And, please listen to us. We know what we are talking about. I knew it when poor Bobbi Kristina Brown was not going to come out of her
coma.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: That is the psychiatrist knew when this guy was going to go hurt somebody. You got to listen to our judgment. Anahita, thank you. We
are going to get back to you a little later in the program.
Now, let us move on to the "Top of the Feed." Caitlyn Jenner honored with the Arthur Ashe Courage Award at the ESPY`s. Did she deserve it? Was
it the right choice? Here she was last night on ABC. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAITLYN JENNER, TRANSGENDER T.V. PERSONALITY: All across the world at this very moment, there are young people coming to terms with being
transgender. They are learning that they are different, and they are trying to figure out how to handle that, on top of every other problem that
a teenager has.
They are getting bullied. They are getting beaten up. They are getting murdered. And, they are committing suicide. But, this transition
has been harder on me than anything I could imagine.
And, that is the case for so many others besides me. For that reason alone, trans people deserve something vital. They deserve your respect. I
would like to thank, personally, my buddy Diane Sawyer. You know --
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
You know, you can only tell your story the first time once. And, Diane, you did it so authentically and so gracefully.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me now in the audience, Segun Oduolowu, Entertainment Journalist; Zoey Tur, Pilot and reporter who herself is transgender and Ben
Shapiro, Senior Editor, "Breitbart News," author of "Bullies." Ben, did she deserve this award?
BEN SHAPIRO, SENIOR EDITOR OF "BREITBART NEWS": For what?
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: For courageously coming forward, for having been an athlete of great prowess, now fighting a new battle?
SHAPIRO: What exactly is the battle? I mean self-definition is what you do. And, my baby is doing it at 18 months old. I was unaware you get
a medal for it.
PINSKY: Segun?
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, HOST OF "WIRED IN WITH SEGUN" PODCAST: I think she is a fraud. I thought the message and the messenger were wrong. I was in
the audience at is ESPYs. And, if you want to talk about courage? She said it herself in her speech, that she retreated to her mansion in the
hill and was -- where was she in the hill. Where was she in the `70s when the LGBT community was fighting to acceptance? Where was she in the `80s,
when the AIDS epidemic was ravaging the -- --
[21:05:00] PINSKY: He was hiding, feeling bad about being transgendered --
ODUOLOWU: Where was she in the `90s when shows like, "90210", "Melrose Place" and "Will & Grace" were bringing people -- gay people to
the forefront? Where was she in 2000 --
PINSKY: But she could not come forward, yet.
ODUOLOWU: Yes.
ODUOLOWY: My thing is this. She is a 65-year-old rich white woman that decided to do this, but do not tell me you are walking with the truth
for other transgender kids, kids of color, who do not have that war chest of money to get the surgery, to look like she looks. They are not going to
get the cover of "Vanity Fair." So, do not tell me she is going to stand on the banks, waving her hand as the week for transgenders, when there is a
river of blood of the people who die --
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: OK. Regardless of who the messenger is, OK? Whether you like her or think that this is an
authentic person or not, her intent, she is bringing a conversation to the forefront that is helping people better understand, not you unfortunately,
better understand the transgender community, have more empathy, have more tolerance. And that is saving lives.
Because as she stated, there are so many transgender youths and adults that are victims of violence, that are beat up, that are bullied,
because of the discrimination. So, thank God that now she is mainstreaming it, so people can better understand it and have tolerance.
PINSKY: Wait --
ODUOLOWU: Sam, that is dead wrong.
SCHACHER: No. It is not dead wrong.
ODUOLOWU: She lives in the most accepting city in the state.
SCHACHER: Oh my gosh.
ODUOLOWU: And, go do that in Alabama --
SCHACHER: No. Listen to Zoey. Listen to Zoey.
PINSKY: Ok. Zoey, go ahead.
ZOEY TUR, TRANSGENDER REPORTER: Good try. You do not have to buy for Caitlyn. Did she deserve the honor, probably not. Is she brave? Of
course she is brave. All those years in Beston is sports legend. To come out transgender is horribly difficult. It is the most difficult thing you
could do. I have been in overseas. I have flown a helicopter vision, surveillance missions. I have been shot, stabbed. Being brave is being
yourself. And, being transgender, is about the bravest thing you could do. Did she deserve the award?
ODUOLOWU: At age 65?
TUR: Yes.
SHAPIRO: Why are we mainstreaming delusion?
PINSKY: It is not delusion.
SCHACHER: Why would you call it delusion.
SHAPIRO: Because Bruce -- Caitlyn Jenner, I will call him, Caitlyn Jenner --
SCHACHER: No, it is her. You are not being polite to the pronouns. It is disrespectful.
SHAPIRO: OK. Forget about the disrespect. Facts do not care about your feelings. It turns out that every chromosome, every cell in Caitlyn
Jenner`s body, is male with the exception of some of his sperm cells. It turns out --
SCHACHER: You are a doctor now?
SHAPIRO: It turns out that he still has all of his male appendages. But, how he feels inside in the inside is irrelevant to the question of his
biological side --
ODUOLOWU: I do not agree with that. I am not on that train. I am not on that train. She wants to be called she. I am going to call her
she. I have a problem with the message and the messenger.
PINSKY: Zoey, let us -- I am going to do two things. I want to Reiterate what Zoey said, which is the bifurcation of the courage to come
forward after a lifetime as a male, and a certain kind of a male. Versus, did she deserve this award? Listen, the awards -- What are award
ceremonies except an opportunity to catch some eyes?
TUR: Especially the ESPYs.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: ESPN. Well done, ABC. They did exactly what their job was, to attract eyes. They did it. That is what award ceremonies are for.
But, in terms of the science behind gender dysphoria, you are very familiar with that, Zoey --
TUR: Very familiar.
PINSKY: It is not about the chromosomes within our nuclei --
TUR: We both know --
PINSKY: Yes. Go ahead.
TUR: The chromosomes do not necessarily mean you are male or female.
PINSKY: Gender.
TUR: With gender, of course.
PINSKY: Gender identity. Go ahead.
TUR: But even so, you have a thing like Klinefelter syndrome. So, you do not know what you are talking about. You are not educated on
genetics --
SHAPIRO: We will discuss the genetics --
PINSKY: No. No.
TUR: What are your genetics?
PINSKY: So, let us stop it with the genetics and let us go back to the brain scans.
TUR: You cut that out now or you will go home in an ambulance.
SHAPIRO: Yes. That seems mildly inappropriate for a political discussion.
ODUOLOWU: No. I know, but to be fair --
(CROSSTALK)
ODUOLOWU: That is not fair.
SHAPIRO: I am sorry, it is not rude to say that someone who is biologically a male is a male.
TUR: You could call me sir --
MICHAEL CATHERWOOD, CO-HOST OF "LOVE LINE" AND KABC RADIO: Comment to Shapiro. You knew very well that saying that to Zoey would be egregiously
insulting --
WATTS: Inflammatory.
SHAPIRO: It is not a matter of insulting or inflammatory --
CATHERWOOD: It is.
(CROSSTALK)
CATHERWOOD: Sir. Sir, you are right. On paper, what is a fact is a fact.
WATTS: I think that --
CATHERWOOD: But, you knew that going in, to say that to Zoey would be aggressively insulting.
SHAPIRO: It is not aggressively insulting.
CATHERWOOD: It is.
SHAPIRO: The entire discussion is whether we are embracing mental illness and delusion as a society. That is the entire discussion.
WATTS: No, no, no.
CATHERWOOD: You are avoiding the fact. You are avoiding the fact -- you want to talk facts, you are avoiding the fact. You are not a dumb man.
You knew that saying that to Zoey would be incredibly --
PINSKY: Let me stop you. Rolonda, last word here. You have given a chance.
WATTS: You know, there is very startling statistics that are out that say that 80 percent of us know somebody who is gay or bisexual or even
transvestite or lesbian. But, only 1 percent of us know somebody who is in transition.
So, this is a new discussion for us. A lot -- It is a very scary for a lot of people. But that is I think, whether we agree with the whole
Caitlyn transition or not, the reality is that we are in a state of humanity right now, where we need to exercise a little bit more tolerance.
[21:10:00] We need to understand the things that we do not understand a bit more, instead of making inflammatory comments. Maybe we have a
little bit more tolerance. That is what I think.
PINSKY: We will keep this going. We will keep it going. But later we are going to -- no aggression, no violence. We are going to come right
back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TUR: This is a rollout of a product. This is not somebody that is going at their pace. This is a highly professional rollout of a product,
and it is all timed. It was timed, the ABC interview was timed for sweeps. And, now we have got a reality show coming up. This is brilliant marketing
for anyone to say that this is a transgender person moving at their pace is absurd.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:15:00] PINSKY: We are talking about Caitlyn Jenner. She was honored with the Arthur Ashe courage award last night at the ESPYs. There
is speculation that the award was payback for having given Diane Sawyer her first interview with Jenner on ABC and ESPN, are part of the same
corporation, of course, the Disney family.
And, ABC tells "Los Angeles Times," quote, "There is, absolutely, no connection between the interview and the award. There is simply no truth
to that claim."
Back with Sam, Rolanda, and Mike, and in the audience Segun, Zoey and Ben. All right, so Zoey, you are in that piece. You are saying it was not
a transgender going at their own pace. It was a product rollout. What are the liabilities to the human being, Caitlyn Jenner, as a result of being a
part of this product rollout?
TUR: Well, you cannot sustain that type of energy. You cannot sustain that type of fame. Things shift. You have to reinvent yourself,
but I think at some point, this comes crashing down, because along with all this adulation and hype, eventually you find out that you are really in
existential crisis. Because what is my life really going to be like? Will it be the same? You have to deal with people like this, the hatred. The
people that, you know -- that come out against you and say --
PINSKY: Call you delusional? That is a case of hate.
TUR: Yes, that is hatred.
PINSKY: OK.
TUR: This is just somebody that is --
SHAPIRO: I do not hate you. I feel terrible for you.
TUR: No. No. You do hate. You are consumed with hatred. That is who you are.
SHAPIRO: Really? Do you know me?
TUR: You are a little man. Yes, actually, I do.
PINSKY: Let us stick to the topic. Let us not disperse the topic.
TUR: But, I mean that is OK. He can be whatever he wants but the point is --
PINSKY: Right. That is what this is all about, is not it?
(LAUGHING)
TUR: It is. It is. But there is ramifications for hate speech. But the point is --
SHAPIRO: What are the ramifications?
TUR: Let me finish.
PINSKY: Go ahead, finish up.
TUR: Little boy.
PINSKY: Zoey.
SCHACHER: OK.
PINSKY: Stick to the conversation.
TUR: I am sorry.
PINSKY: Come on , everybody.
TUR: Buttons are being pushed.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
TUR: The whole point is that Jenner will -- this will come crashing down.
PINSKY: OK. Like in other reality shows. I saw a Facebook post, where there were 30 reality shows, contestants are participants who died
within a year or two of their shows. I was looking -- I was scrolling through that on Facebook. Something like 85 percent that was suicides.
CATHERWOOD: Right.
PINSKY: It is incredible.
CATHERWOOD: It is like kind of becoming the quarterback before you have ever even played football.
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHEWOOD: There is a definite kind of buildup to getting that type of attention.
PINSKY: And, now this too in the face of all these tremendous changes in who this person is and their life and their lifestyle, and their family
issues, all that is sort of now around this arousal of the --
SCHACHER: I think Caitlyn is built for it. I really do. This is -- Let us not forget. This is a World-Class athlete, who is dealt with
pressure her entire life, who knows how to speak to herself and pump herself up -- who pump herself up, who knows the difference between
perseverance more than any other person that is a non-athlete. I think that this is her mission in life. And, if I could ask you, because I am
harping on some of the things that you mentioned earlier --
PINSKY: Back to Ben.
SCHACHER: Ben. You come from -- like in your mind, a moralist, right?
SHAPIRO: No. I come from a basic biological reality.
SCHACHER: But -- OK.
SHAPIRO: It is not moral thing. If somebody wants to mutilate their body, that is their choice --
SCHACHER: It is not mutilation. But, can we just talk about --
SHAPIRO: Cutting off penis and testicles is mutilation.
SCHACHER: Can we talk about our topic --
CATHERWOOD: That is not actually what they do, though, right?
SCHACHER: OK. Hold up.
CATHERWOOD: They go inside out.
PINSKY: Well, most transgender do not have genital reassignment. Most of them are not.
SCHACHER: OK. Can I finish real quick? This is important.
PINSKY: I want you to piggy back on something. May I let you do that?
SCHACHER: Yes, you may. But, my blood is boiling.
PINSKY: I know. And, I am going to give you a little more fuel. Because Ben is part of a lot of people that have various kinds of feelings
about this. This is what Zoey is talking about.
Here is Peter Berg, best known for producing "Friday Night Lights." He posted this picture on Instagram with the caption, quote, "One man
traded two legs for the freedom of other to trade two balls for two boobs. Guess which man made the cover of "Vanity Fair." He was praised for his
courage by President Obama and it is to be honored with the Arthur Ashe Courage award by ESPN." That is similar stuff --
SCHACHER: OK. So, first of all -- first of all, of course a wounded soldier deserves all the accolade and respect in the world. They save
lives. Well, guess what? There is many different ways to save lives. I believe that Caitlyn Jenner, bringing this conversation to the forefront,
is saving lives.
At the end of the day, can you look at the fact that more than 50 percent of transgender youth attempt suicide because of discrimination,
because of shame. Does that try to alter the way that you -- how you should project your thoughts? What if they are watching? What in there is
a teen watching right now, who is struggling with who they are, living their truth?
SHAPIRO: Let us talk about some of biological facts for one second.
SCHACHER: No, I want you to answer me.
SHAPIRO: I am happy.
SCHACHER: What would you say to a teen right now that really believes --
SHAPIRO: Calm down and let me answer your question.
SCHACHER: I am full of emotion right now because people die.
SHAPIRO: I have noticed.
SCHACHER: Clearly, it does not bother you because you are sitting there stone faced and cold hearted.
SHAPIRO: Of course it bothers me when people commit suicide, which is one of the reasons I do not believe the transgender surgery is the
solution, considering the suicide rate after transgender surgery is precisely the same as before transgender.
SCHACHER: Yeas, because then technically they were not passing and then they are open for more discrimination.
SHAPIRO: OK. The transgender suicide rate is approximately 0.8 in every 100. The only comparable suicide rate in due in history of which I
am aware is Jews living under Austrian and German rule during World War II. To liken the treatment of transgenders in the United States or the western
world to Jews living --
SCHACHER: They are apples and oranges.
[21:20:00] SHAPIRO: No. I am, actually, comparing apples to apple in terms of suicide rate.
WATTS: But, I think if you can see what discrimination does --
SHAPIRO: What about actual solutions? Why is it always society`s fault?
SCHACHER: Then stop hating. Tolerate.
SHAPIRO: I am happy to tolerate. Whatever people wants to do is what they want to do. But the idea that the surgery itself is something to be
glorified --
SCHACHER: My heart bleeds.
WATTS: I think if you can bring the difficulty, the Jewish people have faced because of hatred, then why cannot you as a human, as Dr.
Angelou would say that, "I am human, so therefore nothing human can be alien to me." Why cannot you take that position and understand based upon
your history?
SHAPIRO: I do not hate anybody who has a mental illness and is trying to figure out how to fix that. I am not going to liken the treatments of
Jews under Nazis --
WATTS: No. No, I think any time -- any time a life is in trouble. We are all in trouble. We are all in trouble.
SHAPIRO: I brought that up as a comparison of the treatments of the two and saying that the suicide rate is similar. So, therefore, if the
circumstances of the two are different --
WATTS: Now, the circumstances are may not be different. If you are going to have bullying, if you have murders --
SHAPIRO: Genocide.
WATTS: There is a genocide on transgender children right now.
SHAPIRO: Really?
ODUOLOWU: I think we are going so far afield. As all people, we should be for inclusion. As a black person, and as a Jewish person, who
knows what persecution is --
WATTS: In particular, we should all be for inclusion. No one is saying that we should not be for inclusion. At least, I am saying about
this award is she does not -- Caitlyn Jenner does not walk in the shoes of those young transgender youth because they do not have the means that she
has. So, when we say that she is supposed to --
SCHACHER: You do not know how she was as a teenager.
WATTS: And, you cannot deny the fact that she gave hope to somebody out there.
ODUOLOWU: It is false hope.
WATTS: If they do not have the $70,000 to have the surgery. They might not have a white bound and get to walk away with an --
PINSKY: Guys, got to wrap it there. I got to wrap it there. Ben, let me just deal with your biological question.
SHAPIRO: Sure.
PINSKY: Or mental illness question. Let us say that transgender is a mental illness, what is the goal of treatment then?
SHAPIRO: The goal of treatment would be to cure whatever --
PINSKY: Cannot cure it. It is not curable.
SHAPIRO: OK.
PINSKY: Lots of illnesses are not curable.
SHAPIRO: OK.
PINSKY: Alcoholism, for instance. What is the goal?
SHAPIRO: So the goal would be to allow people to live with it in an appropriate way.
PINSKY: To flourish, right?
SHAPIRO: To flourish, sure.
PINSKY: Not to require them --
SHAPIRO: Absolutely.
PINSKY: -- to assign to one gender or another but to flourish, right?
SHAPIRO: Right. Without imposing on the rest of society a necessity for fictionalized thinking. OK? Because that actually is a cost to
society. I am sorry, but my grandfather was bipolar. OK?
PINSKY: Yes.
SHAPIRO: And, he thought the radio was talking to him.
PINSKY: Yes.
SHAPIRO: They put him in a mental hospital. They did not tell him the radio was talking to him to allow him to live better life. They put
him into a mental hospital and then they give him lithium, which allowed him to live a better life. Looking for better solutions than transgender
surgery would be better solution than pretending a transgender surgery is the cure --
PINSKY: People are looking for treatments all the time. This has been the one --
SHAPIRO: This is stopping the look.
PINSKY: No it really is not. But, be that as it may, the movie called "Infinitely Polar Bear," about being bipolar, how they are
ostracized to this day. So, there is a lot going on here.
SHAPIRO: Which is why I call for tolerance, not respect. There is a difference.
TUR: You have shown no tolerance, nor have you shown any respect.
PINSKY: We have leave it there, guys. Leave it there.
Donald Trump up next, the more he says the higher he goes in the polls, back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:27:17] DONALD TRUMP, AMERICAN BUSINESS MAGNATE: Here is the good news. I am very rich.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: He says he is worth more than $10 billion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I am ready for a straight to the point entrepreneur to be in charge of the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GENE SIMMONS, KISS: Donald Trump is a loving family man. His children have turned out terrific. He is anti-drug, anti-bullies. The guy
is a straight shooter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: He is -- I think is known in the medical field as a complete and utter buffoon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CATHERWOOD: You are calling a buffoon --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Trump --
CATHERWOOD: He has produced results in his life and you have not, so you are a hater.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DON LEMONS, CNN ANCHOR: Do you think he is in it to win it?
SIMMONS: Oh, yes. He is in it to win it every time with anything he does.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIMMONS: You may hate what he has to say but vote your conscience at the ballot box.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Donald Trump, the $10 billion man who wants to be president, continues to stir it up everywhere. I am back with Sam, Rolonda, Mike. In
the audience Segun, Anahita is back and Ben.
All right, Rolonda, we have not heard from you on Mr. Trump. And I know -- I am so fascinated by what he has done here. I cannot even tell
you.
WATTS: Let me tell you, he is the biggest strategist You know, I knew Donald Trump in the `80s. I was one of the first people to put him on
T.V.
SCHACHER: What?
WATTS: Yes.
PINSKY: That is when they --
WATTS: Nobody knew who he was.
SCHACHER: Do you regret it?
WATTS: Well, listen, he would stage anything on the weekends, so we could cover him. And, the news would be slow, so we go cover it. And, I
see him during the week and I would say, "What, Donald? We are going to see you, again, this weekend?" He will be, "Yep!"
I do not think he is a racist. I think he is a strategist. And, I do not think he is a buffoon. I think he is a joker. He is that card you
throw down when you want to trump somebody, and that is who he is.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: But, he is losing language that is getting everyone kind of --
WATTS: Well, he is inflammatory.
PINSKY : But on one hand, it is refreshing, because he is not incumbent -- he is not answerable to anybody. He is free. H can use
language that non-pc, and be free. But in doing so, we are making so much progress --
SCHACHER: But, Dr. Drew --
WATTS: They say somebody who does not wait for the validation of anybody else is one of the most feared people on this earth, and he is one
of them.
SCHACHER: Not that I am talking about -- when you are wanting to be the leader of our world, of America, and he is a presidential candidate,
hopefully not, but maybe. Here is the thing, you cannot make -- because there is a lot of truth to his statements, there is; but you cannot make
such gross generalization that are unfair, that are racist. You cannot have them --
PINSKY: Well, you can. That is what he is saying.
SCHACHER: Well, hold off. I am not finished with my point, because - - here is my point. Because when he does that, he creates a divisiveness. And, right now, here in our country that is the last thing we need from a
leader. We need unity.
PINSKY: Anahita. I think strangely, he is creating a huge divisive, frankly --
SEDAGHATFAR: No. it is not. I agree -- I do not think there is a divisiveness.
SCHACHER: What?
SEDAGHATFAR: I think anything -- Even if you do not agree with what he says. Even if you think he is a bigot, you have to agree that he is now
sparking this discussion about immigration and immigration reform in this country. That is a long overdue discussion.
And, you know, I am not a huge Donald Trump fan. But, I do not think he is a bigot. I do not think he was talking about all Mexicans. I
think he was just addressing the fact that Mexican immigrants that come to the U.S illegally bring certain problems to our country. That is not
bigoted, in my opinion, at all. Could he have delivered it in a much better way?
WATTS: Much definite way.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, absolutely.
CATHERWOOD: Then he would not be Trump.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, but then he would not be Trump.
WATTS: Right.
CATHERWOOD: Could he have delivered it in a more articulate way?
ODUOLOWU: I wonder what the native Americans would have thought of immigration, if we could ask them. But Trump -- damn, I am so happy --
WATTS: They could; when are we all leaving?
ODUOLOWU: No, because what I would say about Trump is I told you, I think he is a double agent. The reason is because he is got to be working
for the other side. He is cutting the grass so low the bigots and crazies that are coming up, even McCain is saying that he is stirring up the
crazies in Arizona with his rhetoric.
SEDAGHATFAR: There must be a lot of crazies, though.
ODUOLOWU: But what I am saying is --
CATHERWOOD: It is very much right.
SEDAGHATFAR: He is number one in the polls right now. Number one, beating Jeb Bush, what does that say?
ODUOLOWU: What I have always said is, if you want to be a Klan member, I am cool with that. Take your hood off. He is taking the hoods
off a lot of people. Because the people that are agreeing with him are agreeing with him rote message, rhetoric, all day.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: He held a rally, however, in New Hampshire. This afternoon, his third visit to the state. Listen to what he said about politicians and
about the press. Ben I am going to go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They all talk about the debate, the debate. I do not debate. The debate. I do not debate, I produce jobs. I produce things. But I
look forward to the debate, anyway. OK? You know? I do look forward to it.
And that is the problem with politicians. That is all they do is debate. They go up, they debate. They are all talk. They are no action,
nothing happens ever. Nothing happens. There is a massive group of people outside that the press will not report, by the way. They do not talk about
it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We are talking about it. But Ben, that is -- people want that kind of --
SHAPIRO: Brashness.
PINSKY: Brashness in the face of all the stagnation and political correctness. It is referring for them. Even if you disagree with
everything he is saying. People responding to the way he is saying it --
SHAPIRO: And, that is exactly right. I mean, look, social studies tell us that the stronger the language you use is, the more people will
tend to agree with you, even if you are wrong.
PINSKY: But, Ben, is not that kind of scary to you.
SHAPIRO: Yes, very scary. I mean welcome to democracy. It has been scary for couple of hundred years, but one of the problems that Trump is
bringing -- the reason there are people resonating to Trump, there really a couple of reasons. One is exactly what you were saying, that he brought up
an issue that so many people felt was overdue, even in if in a way they did not actually like. Second is --
PINSKY: Creating a scapegoat.
SHAPIRO: Yes.
PINSKY: The focusing aggression of Americans on a single population.
SHAPIRO Hold on --
PINSKY: That is what he is doing --
SHAPIRO: There is no question that Mexican illegal immigration has risen the crime rate in border areas around the border,. I mean this is
according to federal crime statistics. That happens to be a fact. The other two things that are really impacting what he is doing here is one, he
is unapologetic. A lot of conservatives are sick of watching conservative politicians who apologize every time they are smacked.
And, the second thing about Trump that he is really doing , that he is coming out of left field as a nonpolitician. And, because he is doing
that it is making people feel like he is speaking brash without poll numbers in front.
The problem is that he actually is speaking with poll numbers in front of him, considering he switched pretty much every position he is
held. Five years ago he was exactly the reverse on every issue. And, now all of a sudden, he is hardcore right wing, on things like immigration. In
2012 he was ripping Mitt Romney from the left. He was saying that Mitt Romney was far too right wing on immigration.
CATHERWOOD: Right. I mean he is disguised as someone being not a politician, but he is playing a political game. And, Rolonda brought up
the point that he is speaking before he needs validation. And, I think that quite the opposite is true.
This is a man, who is cripplingly addicted to getting validation. He is a guy who, given all his accomplishments, spends half his way on Twitter
getting in battles with people who insult him. And, if you want to be the leader of the free world, you have to rise above that. I mean, I cannot
imagine any of the great presidents, regardless of what political --
SEDAGHATFAR: It is brilliant. It is brilliant, though, because if you look at it -- it is brilliant, because guess what? Let us assume he
does not really want to be the president, which I think a lot of people take that position. If he is doing this for publicity, it is working.
CATHERWOOD: It is working.
SEDAGHATFAR: We are talking about it.
CATHERWOOD: Correct. Correct.
SEDAGHATFAR: We have been talking about him for weeks.
CATHERWOOD: If he is doing it for publicity --
SEDAGHATFAR : He is trending on the internet.
CATHERWOOD: -- without question --
SEDAGHATFAR: He is on social media. Hold on. Guess what?
PINSKY: One at a time.
SEDAGHATFAR: Guess what? This is going to translate into dollars and cents for Donald Trump. He is going to laugh his way to the bank. All
publicity is good publicity. That is the reality.
PINSKY: I do not think so.
CATHERWOOD: I do not think so.
SEDAGHATFAR: So, you not think he will make money of off this?
CATHERWOOD: I think that this will --
SEDAGHATFAR: You do not think that this --
CATHERWOOD: He will make a lot more money off this, but he can win a primary. He will not a win a popular vote with this type of rhetoric.
PINSKY: He addressed a crowd and took some questions about 35 minutes. Here is his exit. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Are we hearing me? Am I in the air right now? Yes.
(LAUGHING)
SCHACHER: Talking.
[21:35:00] PINSKY: But, Sam said he is creating divisiveness. And, you would think the things he was saying would create divisiveness. And,
yet we have big audience in this room. People of great diversity stand up and support him. And, he is creating this sort of Spirit of, let us go do
this.
SCHACHER: You are only seeing one side of the coin. Go on social media, there is a huge divisiveness.
PINSKY: There are a lot of people that object.
SCHACHER: He bullies people on social media.
SEDAGHATFAR: What I am saying about the voters` mindset right now. Does that not tell you -- when he is leading Jeb Bush among republican
voters, what does that tell you? I think people are sick of this administration.
ODUOLOWU: It is not saying anything. None of the other people are saying anything.
SEDAGHATFAR: That is not true.
ODUOLOWU: In the absence of any logical rhetoric --
SEDAGHATFAR: Jeb bush. That is not true.
ODUOLOWU: -- you will follow madness. He is giving you madness.
SEDAGHATFAR: Jeb Bush has been talking about immigration, he is married to a Hispanic woman. That is part of his platform.
PINSKY: I am saying that we have become -- I guess humans are this way in big groups, but we have become sort of primitive in our response and
because he has stirred our emotion and focused it on a scapegoat, not illegitimate in terms of the issues he is raced but focused in a way that
dehumanizes a part of the population, that is what scapegoating is.
It is what it is. I am not saying it is factually completely wrong, I am saying there is a thing going on that is fascinating. He is mobilized
this in a way that I am hoping we can be focused in a productive way without having to have a scapegoat take care of the problem productively --
SEDAGHATFAR: Middle ground.
PINSKY: Middle ground. The conversation continues.
And, later, a wedding reception where the groom gets this, completely -- knocks out -- completely knocks her out. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:40:40] SIMMONS: What you see is what you get with Donald Trump. I have known him for a long time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: When Mexico sends its people, they are not sending their best. They are sending people that have lots of problems and they are
brings those problems with us. They are bringing drugs. They are bringing crime. They are rapist and some I assume are good people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMONS: Are you saying that Donald Trump has become un-genuinely?
SIMMONS: He is smarter than that. He is better than that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: He has tapped into something. He is resonating with people, because he is speaking truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Let us not pretend it is nothing. It is something. And, we need to take that enthusiasm and that gallvanizing force and maybe focus it
in a different direction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is exactly what I point. He is tapped into something. We need to examine what that something is. Why we get so exercised by --
what I think is just his freedom of expression as much as anything.
His style might alienate or might attract, we do not know. We are watching history in Real time. Back with Sam, Rolonda, Mike, Segun,
Anahita and Ben. I want to play it for you, some of our audience`s reaction we have seen in this room to Donald Trump. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: You all need to leave trump alone. OK? Because I am for Trump today and forever. Trump is all about money. You
guys are focused on issues. And, we need to focus on world issues and not world problems and that what he has been trying to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: We have had so many politically correct presidents and I appreciate what they have done, but I am ready for a
straight to the point entrepreneur to be in charge of the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I have been following what is going on with Donald Trump and everything. From what I see, he is not a racist.
And, he is just against illegal immigration. Because we do have a lot of illegals in our community.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: But we have had illegal immigration in this city for 35 years, it has been a huge problem, when I was in training the county almost
collapsed because the county health care system, because of the illegal immigrant problem. That is 35 years ago. It is not a new problem. But,
Rolonda, he seems to have tapped into something that -- some dormant aggression. That all of a sudden is flying out. What is it? What is in
us? What is happening here?
WATTS: I think he got chutzpah.
PINSKY: No doubt.
WATTS: But I think -- but America loves a rebel. America loves a straight shooter. Yes, he is stepping on a few toes. But the guy backs up
what he says.
CATHERWOOD: Not always.
WATTS: Listen --
CATHERWOOD: In fact, very infrequently. This is a man who has built his entire career on being this financial wizard. He is a man who is
sucked close to $8 billion out of private and public funding. He was greatly in debt, leveraged to the hilt --
(CROSSTALK)
WATTS: And brought himself back up, rose from the ashes. The american dream.
CATHERWOOD: Call a guy who inherited money from a massive real estate development empire, and then go on to a career in real estate
development, does not really make him a rebel. It makes him --
(CROSSTALK)
WATTS: Yes, I know. But --
PINSKY: Sam.
SCHACHER: I feel like I am being punked. I feel like, how are people taking him seriously?
PINSKY: They are taking him very seriously.
SCHACHER: I do not get it. First of all, he slams Hillary Clinton, yet they are really good friends. She was at his wedding. I do not
believe anything that comes out of his mouth. I think he is pure strategist, plain and simple.
CATHERWOOD: He is a grade-A entertainer. He is a grade-A entertainer.
PINSKY: Segun.
ODUOLOWU: I saw those women that were in the audience and I was like, "What the heck is wrong with you?" Like, the one woman who was
like, he is all about money! He is not sharing that with you, sister. He is not going to open his wallet and give her paper.
PINSKY: So what is it he has resonating? He is pulling out of people?
ODUOLOWU: Again, in the absence of logical thinking you will follow the illogical and he is saying it the loudest and longest and on the
biggest stage --
(CROSSTALK)
SEDAGHATFAR: No. It is not giving credit to the American people. I think part of it --
ODUOLOWU: I do not give the American people credit for knowing their own mind. They are following a demagogue.
SEDAGHATFAR: No. These are the voters, though. And, I think part of it could be, Dr. Drew, people are tired of politics as usual.
PINSKY: Yes.
WATTS: That is right.
SEDAGHATFAR: He is refreshing. He is telling it like it is. He is not beholden to big powers.
PINSKY: Right. He is free. He is free to say --
(CROSSTALK)
WATTS: And listen --
SEDAGHATFAR: People want change. They are ready for change.
PINSKY: Ben.
SHAPIRO: There is more than that.
PINSKY: What?
SEDAGHATFAR: I do not think he is going to make it.
SHAPIRO: Trump speaks a language other republicans are not, which is he speaks the language of heroes and villains. You may not like what he is
casting --
PINSKY: That is scapegoating.
SHAPIRO: OK. That is also --
PINSKY: It is primitive.
[21:45:00] SHAPIRO: Hold on. It is also called narrative. And, Barack Obama has been doing it eight years. And, Hillary Clinton does it
as well in her speech. In her latest economic speech, she said that Scott Walker was stomping on unions and was mean-spirited in doing so. She
paints a picture of heroes and villains. She tells a story. Donald Trump tells a story. You may not like his story but you need to understand that
it is a story.
PINSKY: Do you think we are all feeling like the villains they keep talking about? And, we are sort of feeling like this PC world makes us
feel like we are wrong and bad?
SHAPIRO: I think a lot of the people feel like that.
PINSKY: Is that a really common feeling that people are having?
ODUOLOWU: Not for me. I do not feel anything for Trump. I think he is a double agent.
PINSKY: No --
(CROSSTALK)
CATEHRWOOD: I think you are greatly over thinking it. I think if you analyze the polls on both sides. The three most popular candidates by
far are three people who have very recognizable last names and the last name Trump being the single most recognizable to people who are not
politically interested.
You see a celebrity. He is a man that you recognize. And if you took the average American and put them -- throughout the litany of
republican candidates, they would not be able to recognize it, one.
(LAUGHING)
SEDAGHATFAR: Jeb Bush --
WATTS: Does America thinks they have a reality show.
CATHERWOOD: And Hillary Clinton has the last name --
PINSKY: I have got to wrap it up. Got to wrap it up. Thank you, guys. I think Ben is awesome. I think it is about narrative. I think
people for some reason want the narrative to change. And, I think -- I am suspicious that the way people feel they have been cast in the narrative,
they are not happy with it. And, they want a new narrative where they are cast as the hero, as
the -- frankly, the American dream, where people can do things and the dream things and be successful and be positive about things, rather than
feeling like, "Oh my gosh, we got to be careful and we have to be thoughtful," which we do, everybody. We do need to be all those things.
So, this is something that is going to continue to evolve. We will keep an eye on it.
Coming up, it may be the worst first dance at a wedding ever.
WATTS: Oh!
PINSKY: Oh, yeah. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Time for "Click Fix," where my guests tell me what is trending on their Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram feeds. And a reminder,
we are now on Snap Chat. Follow us, DrDrewHLN. It is been an active site the last couple of days. We will show you all the behind the scenes
activity, what happens during the commercial breaks. Back with Sam, Rolanda, Mike. And, Mike you go start it.
CATHERWOOD: All right. So, the ABC party store down in Dallas, Texas, which I only thought was in Hawaii, but they have them in Dallas.
It has a Donald Trump pinata. A huge members call population there in Texas. They sell for $65 appeals. And they are sold out already.
SCHACHER: What?
PINSKY: Wow.
CATHERWOOD: We are all a little worked up over the Donald, whether you like him or not. It is a good thing I think to be able to smash a
little candy out of him.
PINSKY: With the sombrero. It is very funny.
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
PINSKY: All right, Rolanda, what do you got?
WATTS: Well, if you have been following the Duggar family and the 19 chirp, the show is over. It has been canceled, TLC canceled it. This
following some allegations of sexual misconduct in the family against one of the stars.
And the entire family says that they have overcome a terrible situation. They have found healing, and they are moving forward, and they
are looking forward now to working with TLC on a documentary.
PINSKY: I am not sure that is good.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Just having a simple life and focusing on their health I think is a good idea. Funny, this morning I was thinking, what is Honey
Boo-Boo like now? Is she all right? What is going on there?
CATHERWOOD: It is the rise and fall we talked about earlier in the fall.
PINSKY: Sam?
SCHACHER: OK. Changing gears, because my Click Fix is about dildos. Apparently, they are all over Portland, Oregon. Do not get too excited.
So, there was an image --
WATTS: And, why are you getting excited?
CATEHRWOOD: Never mind. Is this thing?
PINSKY: I have heard. There are sex toys all over Portland?
SCHACHER: It is like an epidemic of dildos all over Portland.
PINSKY: What? What?
CATHERWOOD: That is a good dance.
PINSKY: What does that mean?
SCHACHER: There was an image posted to IMjur, where it had two dildos hanging over electrical wires --
PINSKY: Like shoes.
SCHACHER: Similar to that of the shoes. All of a sudden people started tweeting photos. These dildos have been placed all over Oregon and
there is a rumor on Reddit that apparently somebody purchased a -- a second store purchased 10,000 dildos, they were damaged. So they gave them out to
their friends, and now people are stringing them over --
WATTS: You do not want a damaged dildo, trust me.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Rolonda, do you want to address that issue? Rolonda, come on. But I am just thinking --
CATHERWOOD: How will Fred and Carrie address this on the next season of "Portland?"
PINSKY: Exactly what I was thinking. An episode about this, I am wondering what Fred is going to do with it.
Next up, the wedding reception that takes a very, very problematic turn. The groom showing off, tried to get her up and it gets even worse.
Boom. See it after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Time now for my "Click Fix." You have seen these amazing organized wedding dance videos with the bridal party. Well, here is what
happens when the moves do not go down quite right.
A groomsman and bridesmaid walk into the hall, and try to do a flip. Instead he lands and knocks her out. And, when someone tries to help her
up, she gets knocked down again.
(LAUGHING)
It is just unbelievable when you see this. Here he goes. Knocks her cold down. This is the whole thing from the beginning. And, then they try
to get her back up. They really do slam her down again.
SCHACHER: What?
PINSKY: Yes, watch. Watch.
SCHACHER: Again?
PINSKY: I do not know if this is the same video. Here we go. There he goes.
WATTS: Oh!
SCHACHE : But it did not happen twice?
PINSKY: Yes, look. Boom! She hits her head on the ground the second time. It is even worse.
WATTS: Look at all the people taking pictures there. Not racing over to help the bride.
PINSKY: Here we are playing it again. And, Mike, you brought us up, as Sam told us the lovely story about the Portland dildos --
SCHACHER: Dildos.
CATHERWOOD: The Portland dildos. Yes. The AAA baseball team, the Portland dildos. A Mexican artist locally here in Los Angeles is making
another sex toy that is themed around Donald Trump. It is a different type sex toy.
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: It goes to a different area.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: Oh, different --
PINSKY: Men and women can use it.
CATHERWOOD: Yes. Men and women can use it.
SCHACHER: He painted on this?
CATEHRWOOD: Yes. It goes in -- where -- yeah.
PINSKY: You were talking about it.
CATHERWOOD: I was. I was. Actually, I am using three right now.
SCHACHER: Yes, OK.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: OK. All right, very good. Thank you. Thank you, guys. It has been a very interesting conversation. We will keep an eye on these
stories. DVR us please and you can watch us any time.
Reminder, check us out on Snap Chat. We got a lot of action going on there on Snap Chat. The Snap Chat is DrDrewHLN. That is going to become
our means of communicating with you during the show and showing you what goes on behind the scene. Snap Chat, find us there. We will see you next
time.
END
