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Texas Video Released; Trump Interview on CNN; Chattanooga Attack; Digital Car Hacking. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired July 22, 2015 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Here we go. Top of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.
Very, very soon we are expected to hear from the family of Sandra Bland and get their reaction to this newly released dash cam video that shows why Bland wound up in this jail cell in Waller County, Texas. The 28-year-old woman was found dead in her cell on July 13th, just three days after she was arrested. Authorities say she committed suicide, but her family isn't buying that story. Her case is now being handled as a murder investigation. And while the video does not explain how Bland died, it does show how a minor traffic violation turns into a major confrontation between this woman and this Texas state trooper.
I want to show you a clip. And you're about to see it pick up after Bland is ticketed for what the trooper says was an improper lane change.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TROOPER: Do you mind putting out your cigarette, please, if you don't mind.
SANDRA BLAND: I'm in my car. Why do I have to put out my cigarette?
TROOPER: Well, you can step on out now.
BLAND: I don't have to step out of my car.
TROOPER: Step out of the car.
BLAND: Why am I -
TROOPER: Step out of the car.
BLAND: No, you don't have to - no, you don't have the right.
TROOPER: Step out of the car!
BLAND: You do not - you do not have the right to do that.
TROOPER: I do have the right. Now step out or I will remove you.
BLAND: I refuse to - I refuse to talk to you other than to identify myself and (INAUDIBLE) - TROOPER: Step out or I will remove you.
BLAND: (INAUDIBLE) I am getting removed for a failure to signal?
TROOPER: Step out or I will remove you. I'm giving you a lawful order. Get out of the car now, or I'm going to remove you.
BLAND: (INAUDIBLE) and I'm calling my lawyer.
TROOPER: I'm going to yank you out of here.
BLAND: OK, you're going to yank me out of my car.
TROOPER: Get out.
BLAND: OK. All right.
TROOPER: (INAUDIBLE).
BLAND: Let's - let's do this.
TROOPER: Yes, well, you're going to.
BLAND: Yes, let's - don't touch me.
TROOPER: Get out of the car.
BLAND: (INAUDIBLE). Don't touch me. I'm not under arrest. You don't have the right to take me out of my car.
TROOPER: You are under arrest.
BLAND: I'm under arrest for what?
TROOPER: (INAUDIBLE) county FM1098 (ph) (INAUDIBLE) send another unit.
BLAND: For what? For what?
TROOPER: Get out of the car!
DISPATCHER: (INAUDIBLE) another unit, FM1098.
TROOPER: Get out of the car now.
BLAND: Why am I being apprehended? You're trying to give me a ticket for failure -
TROOPER: I said get out of the car.
BLAND: Why am I being apprehended? You just opened my car door -
TROOPER: I am giving you a lawful order.
BLAND: You opened my car door -
TROOPER: I am going to drag you out of here. BLAND: So you're going to - you're threatening to drag me out of my
own car.
TROOPER: Get out of my car!
BLAND: And then you (INAUDIBLE) me?
TROOPER: I will light (ph) you up. Get out!
BLAND: Wow.
TROOPER: Now!
BLAND: Wow.
TROOPER: Get out of the car!
BLAND: Threatened (ph) for a failure to signal. You're doing all of this for a failure -
TROOPER: Get over there.
BLAND: Right. Yes. Yes, let's take this to court.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: So this is the point where she walks off camera. The next part of the arrest was caught on a different camera. It was a cell phone of a bystander. And we'll show you what happens with the dash cam video on left and the cell phone video on the right and the audio is up from both recordings. Here you go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLAND: I know that this makes you feel good. You're a real man now. You just slammed me and knocked my head into the ground. I've got Epilepsy, you (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
TROOPER: Good. Good.
BLAND: (INAUDIBLE). Good. Good, good, good. All right. All right. Yes, this is real good. Real good for a female, yes. Y'all strong. Y'all real strong.
TROOPER: I want you to wait right here. Wait right here.
BLAND: I can't go nowhere because (EXPLETIVE DELETED) knee in my back, duh.
TROOPER: I'm going to open your door.
You need to leave. You need to leave.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't hear you.
TROOPER: You need to leave. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Am I on public property?
TROOPER: (INAUDIBLE).
BLAND: (INAUDIBLE).
TROOPER: For a warning. For a warning, you're going to jail for resisting arrest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Let's discuss with David Katz, CEO of the Global Security Group and a federally certified firearms and tactical instructor. Also with me, Georgetown law professor and former federal prosecutor Paul Butler.
So, gentlemen, welcome to both of you.
PAUL BUTLER, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It's great to be here.
DAVID KATZ, FORMER SENIOR SPECIAL AGENT, DEA: Thank you. It's my pleasure.
BALDWIN: David Katz, to you first, because I just want to ask, from a law enforcement perspective, and let's be crystal clear that this state trooper has been put on administrative duty because they have found that some of what he did was improper. In asking her to step out of the car. Maybe not explaining why she was being pulled over. She's asking, why am I being apprehended? Can you walk me through the separate parts that he acted wrongly and how he should have handled it?
KATZ: Well, OK. OK, a couple things. First of all, there's an antecedent to this video where the second he pulls her over, ma'am, I'm stopping you for an improper lane change. Very civil discourse. He asked her for her license plate. A very pleasant conversation right before that. At some point he's talking to her and he asks her to please put out her cigarette.
BALDWIN: Right.
KATZ: I've done that before. In every case -
BALDWIN: You have?
KATZ: Yes. Yes.
BALDWIN: Why? Well just, why?
KATZ: You - why, because I'm talking to you and you're -
BALDWIN: Blowing smoke in your face.
KATZ: That is what - it's disrespectful. It's not healthy. I'm not smoking.
BALDWIN: Any other reason?
KATZ: No. No. really, no.
BALDWIN: OK. OK.
KATZ: But at that point - by the way, you don't have to put it out, but it's certainly courteous too. At some point something escalates where he feels, get out of the car, which, by the way, is lawful. I can order you out of the car. There are some state laws that go to that point. But the states where (ph) Supreme Court law, Pennsylvania versus Mims (ph) I think it was, that said a police officer can order you out of the car on a traffic stop. So she has to comply.
[14:05:12] What I think most police officers, I think - I think where you can find fault with the officer, and many people, myself included, not only do you have to do the right thing, but you have to sound good and look good. So the way you speak to people, even if they're being -
BALDWIN: The tone, the language.
KATZ: Yes. Well, at some point your tone is going to be sharp. Ma'am, get out of the car. And if they don't, you can escalate your tone and you can -
BALDWIN: (INAUDIBLE).
KATZ: Yes. He's - that was it, the progression. But, again, we don't see in the car. When he leans in, I wouldn't be leaning in the car like that personally. I don't think that's a safe thing to do, from an officer safety standpoint. What did she do in the car? Did she scratch him? Did she push him? Did he perceive that as a conduct that was approaching assault?
BALDWIN: OK.
KATZ: I don't know. It certainly escalated to a point that it shouldn't have gotten to.
BALDWIN: Professor, I want your perspective. You've seen the video. I want your interpretation, a, and, b, as far as these issues that David brings up, just from a legal perspective, what would - what were her rights in that situation?
BUTLER: I have seen that video, Brooke, and I have to tell you, as a former prosecutor, as an African-American and as an American citizen who hopes that he lives in a free country, I'm horrified by what I see. It's unconstitutional.
First of all, the stop. Classic example of driving while black. This African-American woman driving. Cop is tailing her. She pulls over simply to get out of his way and that's when he gives her a ticket. Then the asking, put out the cigarette. The cop - your other guest is right, he does -- that's not an order. She doesn't have to put out the cigarette.
BALDWIN: It's a courtesy. BUTLER: Yes. And the reason that he asked her to get out of the car is
because she doesn't put out the cigarette. He feels disrespected. Well, again, your other guest is right, there is a case that says the cops can order you out of the car, but that's if they feel concerned for their safety, not if they feel disrespected.
KATZ: Not true.
BUTLER: And then the use of deadly force. Why? We don't even know why she was arrested. At this - we don't see her crime. We see her traffic infraction. We don't see a crime committed, again. And the police report is a lie. He leaves out the stun gun. He leaves out the cigarette. There's no reason to trust this officer's credibility. I don't think the citizens of Texas are safe with this man with a gun and the power to arrest.
BALDWIN: Let me back up to the beginning because it's important to talk about this. The beginning of this, the focus of the video, the dash cam video that shows the trooper is behind her for about ten seconds and then she changes lanes. Let me play this. This is one of the first things she says to the state trooper who, by the way, his name is Brian Ensignia (ph). Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TROOPER: You OK?
BLAND: I'm waiting on you. You - this is your job. I'm waiting on you. What do you want me to say?
TROOPER: I don't know, you seem very irritated.
BLAND: I am. I really am. (INAUDIBLE). I was getting out of your way. You were speeding up, tailing me, so I move over and you stop me. So, yes, I am a little irritated, but that doesn't stop you from giving me a ticket, so -
TROOPER: Are you done?
BLAND: You asked me what was wrong and I told you.
TROOPER: OK.
BLAND: So now I'm done, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: So, David, to you, the notion of threatened, being threatened versus insulted. How do you read this?
KATZ: OK, well, first of all, there's a lot of - the other guest made some points that need to be addressed. Number one, it's a big jump from going from an ordinary traffic stop to driving while black. There is - I tell you from pulling over a million people, most times I wouldn't even know what color they were driving by. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. I don't know if that's why she's - BUTLER: He did, trust me.
KATZ: She - why she pulled over, because he was behind her. If that's the case, that's a pretty low - low - low - low level offense to pull her over for. However, once you get out, there is no - there's no limitation. If the officer wants to pull you out, get you out of the car, you have to comply. That's number one. Number two, a summons is being given in lieu of arrest. I can take you into custody if - if the circumstances warrant on that. Even though it's a minor violation, you can do that.
The problem was, the guy's conduct, the way he was speaking was not what I would consider a professional manner. I would have done it a lot differently. On the other hand, the young lady also was doing what I think citizens should not do. Don't be confrontational. If you think a police officer is acting inappropriately, respond in kind, do what they say and make a complaint or lawsuit later.
BALDWIN: Here's what I'm wondering, and, Paul, I want you to respond to that. But also, you know, we've been covering - there have been a lot of cases involving police in the last year, and I think more and more people are becoming aware of these cases. They're seeing videos being put out on national news, and so they're aware of their rights. And, you know, I hear the confrontation word. Do you think that more and more people are becoming more confrontational when they are being pulled over, Paul?
BUTLER: You know, Miss Bland was active in the Black Lives Matter movement, and she has seen a series of videotapes, as we all have, in which the police treat people not only discourteously but unconstitutionally. And we all know that the consequences, the tragic consequences of talking back to the police can sometimes be death. Again, that's not fair, that's not right, but I'm certain that she understood that.
[14:10:10] So at the beginning of this, I saw someone who was upset because ironically the respect that she was showing the officer by getting out of his way is what led to her getting a ticket. So, again, people get angry. It's the people who are paid by the state to enforce the law, who are licensed to kill, they're the people who we need to be concerned about being courteous and following the law. And this officer simply did not do that. Again, he - we should be thinking about not only whether he acted within the civil law, within police regulations, which he clearly did not, but whether there's a criminal case to be made against him for the way that he assaulted that young woman. Again, I don't see a reason why he had to use that kind of force, either the stun gun or the physical force to pin her down. When she says that she had epilepsy, he said "good." I can't believe your other guest is trying to defend this behavior. It makes every cop look bad.
KATZ: Well, if I could jump in if I could.
BALDWIN: Just quickly, David, just respond to that. We've got to go.
KATZ: Yes, well, I'm not trying to defend his actions. I said he was unprofessional. What I'm - what I'm objecting to is your immediate assumption that, well, he did this because she's black. And also you're assuming facts in evidence by suggesting that, well, the only reason she changed lanes is because he was behind her. Maybe that's true. We don't know. That's her story. But even show, you change lanes, you get pulled over, that's it. It's a violation. He probably was just going to give her a ticket or a warning and then it escalated from there. It's a simple thing.
Like I tell people all the time, cops, number one, have a greater responsibility to be professional and courteous, but police - but persons stopped need to do a couple of things that are intelligent, too. Don't be confrontational. If you feel you're being stopped improperly or your rights are being violated, sue them.
BALDWIN: OK.
KATZ: Simple.
BUTLER: But the consequences - just real quick -
BALDWIN: OK. (INAUDIBLE) -
BUTLER: The consequences of -
BALDWIN: It's what - go, quickly, quickly.
BUTLER: The consequence of not being nice to police should not be being arrested and ending up being hung in a jail cell.
BALDWIN: Again, the sheriff says it was suicide. The family, not buying it. They've ordered an independent autopsy and they'll be hearing from the family. They're holding a news conference next hour. So we'll take that.
David Katz and Paul Butler, I truly - I appreciate both your perspectives. Thank you so much.
KATZ: A pleasure.
BUTLER: Thank you for having us.
BALDWIN: Stay with CNN, of course, for that next hour. I appreciate it.
The Texas Department of Public Safety says the dash cam video of Sandra Bland's arrest was not edited, but that question came up because of some oddities in the video, like this tow truck driver walks out of frame at one point and then he reappears in another spot. In another example, this white car here just disappears in the middle of the road and then reappears as well, thus the questions. A public safety spokesperson says there were technical issues while uploading the video and the department is working to correct them.
Next, I see him off camera, Anderson Cooper is back here. He just sat down with the presidential contender that has everyone talking, Donald Trump. He talked about everything from the new polls, to his personal attacks against his rivals. You will hear what he has just told Anderson coming up live.
Also ahead, a possible security breach involving President Obama's upcoming trip to Kenya this weekend. Hear what the Secret Service is now looking into.
And new text messages surface showing how friends of this Chattanooga shooter reacted to the attack on Marines and Sailors. Stand by for that. You're watching CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:17:33] BALDWIN: Now to a brand new interview with a candidate who is definitely taking the political world by storm, you could say. In the last 24 hours, Donald Trump has been called a "jackass," a "blowhard," and in response he gave America the personal cell phone number of one of his rivals, a sitting U.S. senator, that was after he called Lindsey Graham "a stiff" and "an idiot." But now as several polls indicate, Donald Trump leading his Republican opponent just two weeks before a first debate here, a new poll shows something a tad different.
Anderson Cooper is with me because he just talked again to Donald Trump.
And let's just begin with the fact that he is not polling as well, what, in the latest Quinnipiac?
ANDERSON COOPER, ANCHOR, CNN'S "AC 360": Quinnipiac poll, but that's - it's a general election poll set in three states, so it's Democrats and Republicans in a general election vote. But as you say, among Republicans, and polls of Republicans, he is polling extremely well. As you know, this "Washington Post"/ABC poll from Monday had him a major lead out ahead of any of the other candidates.
BALDWIN: Right.
COOPER: Clearly Donald Trump wants to focus on those polls. I talked to him just a short time ago about the Quinnipiac poll. Let's take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Let's talk polls. First of all, "Washington Post" poll on Monday, great news for you.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes.
COOPER: A huge lead in the Republican field. Quinnipiac poll came out today though, not so good news for you. In the general election voters, Colorado, Iowa, Virginia, you have the worst favorability rating of anyone, Republican or Democrat, negative favorability ratings of almost two to one. Hillary Clinton also did badly. What do you think of that?
TRUMP: I - I haven't seen it. I really don't know. I haven't seen it. I've only - I've only seen - COOPER: Do - do - do negative favorability ratings worry you?
TRUMP: I don't think so. I mean I've - I've turned a lot of them around. And as you know in North Carolina, it was negative, and now it's like tremendously positive. And when people hear what I say about the vets and how strong my commitment is to the vets, they've been treated so badly, and to the border, which is just horrible, I mean, every time people listen to me, all of a sudden it becomes very favorable. A good example would be North Carolina, where it's so positive. I haven't seen that. But I think, generally speaking, we're doing very well and certainly we're doing well in the ABC/ "Washington Post" poll and every other poll that I've seen in the last couple of weeks.
COOPER: So you think you can turn around - because a lot of people say, look, those - those kind of unfavorability ratings, that does not bode well. You think you can turn that around?
TRUMP: I don't know. I mean, who knows. I'm doing this for the good of the country. Somebody has to do it. Politicians are never going to turn this country around. Our country is a mess. The politicians are going to destroy this country. They're weak and they're ineffective.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Later on he went on to actually question the Quinnipiac poll, didn't really think it had much validity. His focus clearly is on the positive poll result that he's been getting -
[14:20:05] BALDWIN: Which he's doing well, right.
COOPER: Which he has been getting, particularly among Republican primary voters.
BALDWIN: Can we talk about the insults being thrown. I mean this is getting personal. I talked to two supporters of Trump yesterday and, you know, I asked them, isn't this getting a little juvenile it seems. And you asked -
COOPER: Yes.
BALDWIN: You asked him about his tone.
COOPER: Sure.
BALDWIN: What did he say?
COOPER: It was interesting, actually. He said that as I - I said, do you have the temperament to be president because -
BALDWIN: That's a good question.
COOPER: You know, as president, would you be giving out the personal phone numbers of people on Capitol Hill who oppose you? Would - you know, half the country's probably going to oppose you as president if that's what - if that's the way things work, would you be calling them stupid and idiot? He said that as president he would change his tone and he goes into a little bit more detail about how he might do that. But I thought it was interesting to hear him really for the first time talk about -
BALDWIN: Acknowledge it.
COOPER: Acknowledging Donald Trump on the campaign as being different from the way he would try to lead the country. He claims he can be a uniter and - and he talked a lot more about that. And I also asked him about his trip going down to the border tomorrow.
BALDWIN: Right.
COOPER: Really trying to get him in this interview to kind of - you know, we've heard obviously a lot about the debate (ph) of John McCain, the war hero. I really tried to move off that and on to specifics. Specific policies because you don't, in general, hear a lot of specifics from Donald Trump.
BALDWIN: Some substance.
COOPER: So I tried to pin him down on specifics.
BALDWIN: OK, we'll watch for the pinning down of Donald Trump, of course, at 8:00 tonight. But Anderson will be back next hour because I know you also asked him about what we just led our show with, happened in Texas with Sandra Bland -
COOPER: Right.
BALDWIN: About being pulled over and the jail cell.
COOPER: Right. And he actually - he talks quite a lot about that. So we'll play that in the next hour.
BALDWIN: We'll see you next hour, sir. Thank you very much.
COOPER: Thank you.
BALDWIN: Anderson Cooper. Again, watch the whole interview tonight, "AC 360," at 8:00 Eastern here on CNN.
Moving on next here, CNN has obtained text messages exchanged between the friends of the Chattanooga gunman. What they said immediately after the shooting. CNN's senior investigative correspondent Drew Griffin will join me with that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:26:07] BALDWIN: The FBI says it believe Chattanooga gunman Mohammad Abdulazeez acted alone when he opened fire on two military facilities last week. At a news conference today, federal officials investigating the attack said all the victims were shot with the very same weapon and that they do not believe anyone was killed by friendly fire. Meantime, CNN has exclusively obtained text messages exchanged between
friends of the gunman expressing their shock and disbelief. CNN's senior investigative correspondent Drew Griffin joins me with some of those messages.
What are you reading and seeing?
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, you know, what else we didn't hear from the FBI today was any kind of motive or motivation for this crime. In fact, the FBI agent in charge said don't jump to any conclusions. A lot of people are assuming this is radical Islam. These texts from his closest circle, Mohammad Abdulazeez's closest circle, just after the shooting, seem to point to their confusion too in all this. I want you to take a look at this with your viewers.
One of them is, "it can't be our Abdulazeez." "Man," you know, expletive, what "is wrong with him?" "Just text me" - "someone just text me that he is dead." And then we have this. "It was just the other day we had" met. "I was with him the night before yesterday." And they're talking about how he was calm, was always calm about everything, normal. He never talked about jihad, anybody? No, dude, just had a new job and everything. This is out of nowhere. And finally, Brooke, this, "may Allah forgive him and us all." "Bro, there is no forgiveness for taking innocent lives."
This - this is consistent with all the interviews we did in Chattanooga with those who knew him very well and were actually considering Mohammad Abdulazeez their sort of spiritual guide through Ramadan. It still begs the question, what happened to this person, why he opened fire and mass murdered these servicemen. As the FBI looks, his friends are looking, too.
Brooke.
BALDWIN: And we know he had gone to Jordan. He had stayed with his uncle. I believe he had returned in the fall of 2014. What more have we learned from that?
GRIFFIN: You know, we know the uncle is being questioned, along with Jordanian authorities have questioned the uncle. He's a businessman. The family has said that he was sent basically to Jordan to live with the uncle and a grandfather for one reason, to break this substance abuse he was going through and, quote, unquote, "bad crowd" he was with in Chattanooga. They were trying to dry him out.
There was allegations now from the family of mental illness he was battling. His friends say he smoked a ton of pot. We do know that he - he looked at the preachings of the radical cleric Awlaki. That was more than a year ago though. And even his writings, anti-U.S. writings, were from back then, more than a year ago. In his recent past, they're just not uncovering anything right now, anything, that says, look it, I - I killed for Islamic jihad or whatever. It just -
BALDWIN: Right, no clear motive.
GRIFFIN: It's like, yes, no clear motive, right.
BALDWIN: Drew Griffin, thank you.
GRIFFIN: Yes.
BALDWIN: Imagine this, you're driving down the road, suddenly the radio switches channels and starts blaring.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can't turn it down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: That is Andy Greenberg behind the wheel. He writes for "Wired" magazine and he willingly put himself in the hands of hackers. You heard me right, hackers, who say they can gain control of some vehicles via the Internet. So Greenberg put them to the test in this Jeep Cherokee and promised (ph) those hackers took control of everything, from the radio, to the windshield wipers, to the brakes, to the engine. So let me bring in one of those hackers. He's Chris Valasek. He's also the director of vehicle security research at IOActive.
Chris, nice to talk to you.
CHRIS VALASEK, DIRECTOR OF VEHICLE SECURITY RESEARCH, IOACTIVE: A pleasure. Nice to talk to you as well.
[14:30:00] BALDWIN: The said hacker in this case. You know, let's walk through this because when you - when I hear about, you know, radio or windshield wipers, dare I ask how tough this was for you?
