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Donald Trump Tours Border; Police Custody Death. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired July 23, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:05] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Here we go. Top of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

It is 1:00 in Laredo, Texas, which means right now Donald Trump about to step foot - we're all watching here, live pictures, Laredo, Texas, watching to see Donald Trump get off this plane. What essentially his campaign is calling the danger zone. The billionaire all set for a tour of the U.S./Mexico border despite the fact that his tour guides, the border patrol union, has now backed out, pulling its agents from the trip. We'll get more on that in a minute.

But first I want you to think about this. It has been all of five weeks since Donald Trump launched his run for the White House, five weeks since calling Mexican immigrants rapists, even though he couched that by saying, quote, "and some, I assume, are good people." Since then, he has gone from perceived sideshow to Republican hero, at least for some. He leads most of the polls and he has clarified those rapist comments saying it is the Mexican government that's pushing criminals across the border.

He sat down with Anderson Cooper who pushed him for evidence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, ANCHOR, CNN'S "AC 360": We talked to immigration officials who said, look, they've never heard of that. There's no evidence of that. Wouldn't somebody - I mean of all of the people that have been arrested, you're telling me there wouldn't be proof by now?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Do you remember - do you remember many years ago Fidel Castro, which he emptied the prisons and sent everybody into the United States, right?

COOPER: Right, (INAUDIBLE), yes.

TRUMP: Very famous, right? This is a much more sophisticated version of the same thing. Mexico doesn't want to have these people.

COOPER: But there was clear evidence of that at the time.

TRUMP: This animal - excuse me, this animal that killed Kate, he came across five times. Five times. Now, maybe he came across because he thought the weather was nice. Maybe he was pushed across by Mexico officials. Look, Mexico -

COOPER: But you've offered no proof.

TRUMP: Mexico's leaders are much smarter and sharper and more cunning than our leaders. They're doing things that we don't even know about. Let's see what happens. I'm going to speak to a lot of people tomorrow. There are a lot of people very excited that I'm going to the border tomorrow. I may never see you again, but these are minor details.

COOPER: You're telling me that one illegal immigrant wouldn't have a slip of paper or something that would indicate that he was sent or forced here?

TRUMP: Well, we're going to find out. We're going to say - I think it's commonsense. Mexico doesn't want to house somebody for 30 years in a prison when the United States will do it.

COOPER: Well, you keep saying, everybody knows this is - this is the case, that - that they're being sent.

TRUMP: I think so, yes. I think a lot of people know.

COOPER: But there's no evidence of it.

TRUMP: I think the smart people know. I think the streetwise people know.

COOPER: Because you - you have no evidence.

TRUMP: And I think border guards know. Well, you're going to find out if I have evidence. I'm not telling you now, but you're going to find out what I have.

COOPER: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: All right. Well, within the next two hours, we shall see. I have MJ Lee here with me in New York because we're going to keep that picture up live in the upper right-hand corner of the screen to see when Donald Trump gets off this plane. So, MJ, let me just begin with you.

Why the said tour guides, this union, right, these agents who were supposed to take him to - to the border, they backed out. Why?

MJ LEE, CNN POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Well, it seems that this union representing the border agents were not interested in getting tangled in politics. Trump, obviously, is a political candidate now, is running for office and has talked about the problem of illegal immigration using pretty colorful and, you know, that some - some people consider offensive language. You mentioned that he has referred to some Mexican immigrants as rapists and criminals. That did not sit well with the Hispanic community. And I think for a group that is not supposed to endorse political candidates, I think the decision ultimately was, let's not get involved in this. Let's not have the optics and, you know, making it seem like maybe we're endorsing a political candidate when initially, you know, the goal was to facilitate a conversation about illegal immigration and I think they just wanted to stay clear of the politics.

BALDWIN: So then just quickly, who is taking him? Who's showing up and giving him the tour, do you know?

LEE: I think there were supposed to be some border agents. Here he is getting off the plane.

BALDWIN: Here he is in the middle with a hat waving to presumably many a member of the media waiting for his arrival.

So - so we know he's headed to the border. What - let me just read this. The Trump campaign released a statement today saying quote, in part, "despite the great danger, Mr. Trump is traveling to Laredo, Texas, to proceed with the visit to the border. It is unfortunate the local union of Border Patrol Agents received pressure at a national level not to participate and ultimately pulled out of today's event. It can only be assumed that there were things the politicians in Washington do not want Americans to see or discuss. It shows that we are not even safe in our own country."

What should we expect? Not that we have expectations in light of events such as these involving Mr. Trump, but what should we expect as far as this tour goes, availability, message?

LEE: Look, I mean, I think it's clear that for Trump the issue of illegal immigration is the core issue that he's interested in talking about. I think it's important to note that last week there were some distractions from that goal for Trump when he made the comments about John McCain in questioning whether he was or was not a war hero.

BALDWIN: It was McCain, and then Lindsey Graham, and then Rick Perry. It's gotten very personal.

LEE: And then some - and then some phone throwing.

[14:05:02] BALDWIN: Right.

LEE: So I think that, for him, making this visit is an important step for him to bring the conversation back to this issue that he feels extremely passionate about and wants his campaign to be about, you know, being a nationalist candidate, talking about illegal immigration and just the fact that the country is under assault.

BALDWIN: MJ, thank you very much.

I want to move on. The border patrol union not the only one Trump is calling out. His own party is also fair game. Trump telling "The Hill" newspaper that he might consider a third-party bid if the Republican National Committee doesn't change its ways.

I've got Bob Cusack with me, the editor-in-chief at "The Hill." He interviewed Donald Trump. So as we stay on these live pictures, Bob, you know, great to have you on, by the way, have you back.

BOB CUSACK, EDITOR IN CHIEF, "THE HILL": Thank you.

BALDWIN: You know, I know that Trump told you that the RNC obviously, in his words, hasn't been supportive. That he used to be the fair- haired boy. What else did he say?

CUSACK: Well, basically he's calling out the establishment saying, OK, you've got to be fair and square or I might mount this third-party bid. I mean Donald Trump is very personable. There's no doubt about it. We had 40 minutes with him. He knows how to interact with both the media and he likes to mix it up at times, of course. But this is very interesting. This is the furthest he's ever gone on a third-party threat, that if the RNC, who he has battled with on the John McCain issue, as well, remember, the head of the RNC, Reince Priebus, said to Trump, hey, tone it down a bit.

BALDWIN: Tone it down.

CUSACK: And then just days later, he called - he said McCain wasn't a war hero and then kind of backtracked and said he was. So, overall, this is a huge problem for the GOP establishment that is aghast and Donald Trump and does not want him to be the nominee.

Now I asked Trump, are you going to be the nominee, which Newt Gingrich, four years ago, famously said, I will be the nominee. He said, no, that would be too presumptuous. So he wouldn't go that far.

BALDWIN: OK. And just reminding our viewers, the role of the RNC, they're supposed to be neutral, yes?

CUSACK: Yes.

BALDWIN: Yes.

CUSACK: Yes.

BALDWIN: Yes.

CUSACK: And they're also supposed to win the 2016 election. They want to win back the White House. So it's a very - it's kind of a lose-lose situation for the RNC because I'm sure some Republicans privately are saying, you've got to stop this guy. But if you stop this guy, then he - he could mount a third-party bid. He's certainly got the finances to do it. And he - and he would take away votes from the Republican nominee, whoever that is.

Now, of course, Trump has said and told us that, I'm looking to win the Republican nomination, but he did throw the gauntlet down, said if there's any kind of funny business, any kind of collusion, then, yes, it's going to increase the chances, I'm going to launch a third-party bid.

BALDWIN: To your point, I want to get to some polls here in just a minute in this hypothetical general election, you know, if you were to have a Hillary Clinton, a Jeb Bush and a Donald Trump.

But first, let me just play a little sound because, as I mentioned, you know, this has gotten personal. A lot of name calling. A lot of words thrown around in this kind of campaign. And some candidates really don't even want to go there. They don't want to be asked about Donald Trump. You have Jeb Bush today in New Hampshire, he was asked about him and if Trump is working on a presidential edition of "The Apprentice." This is what Jeb Bush said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No, I think he's - I think he's a serious candidate and he's going to have a lot of money. He's tapping into people's angst that are legitimate, but I don't think you win by tearing - by denigrating people. I don't think you win by tearing up apart. You have to have concrete proposals to allow people to rise up.

So I'm going to stay focused. I'm the tortoise in the race. Slow, steady progress each and every day. Look, there's not much you can say about Donald Trump that he doesn't say about himself. I mean it's a - he is who he is and it's larger than life right now but I think over time people are going to want to know who sits behind the big desk, who can make the decisions to fix things, who has the leadership skills to make it happen. So that - that's my - that's my hope.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: OK, So that was Jeb Bush earlier today. And this is what I wanted to get to, Bob, and I'm sure your - your eyes have seen this, but I want our viewers to look at this closely. This is the recent poll, recent ABC News/"Washington Post" poll, you know, specifically asked registered voters about the Trump third-party run. And so if you have a head to head, if it were just Hillary Clinton and against Jeb Bush, we're going to show those numbers here, you see Hillary Clinton with 50 percentage points and Jeb Bush with 44. But if you were to throw Donald Trump in as that third party candidate, look at how the numbers change, particularly for Jeb Bush. Donald Trump hypothetically would take a chunk out of Jeb Bush's vote. So that's significant to me when I see those numbers today, Bob.

CUSACK: Very significant, Brooke, and certainly Republicans are fearing this could be 1992 overall, the Ross Perot effect. So that's why it's causing so much angst. We have so long to go. The debates haven't even started. Starting in a couple weeks.

BALDWIN: Weeks away. Not too far away.

CUSACK: Weeks away. Yes, it's - but - but it's - as far as like voters going and registering their votes, we, you know, we do have months. So Republicans are - in Washington certainly, they're hoping that Trump implodes. But his - I think his course of orders are very strong and I don't think they're going to be straying from him. They're certainly not Jeb Bush fans. They're not John McCain fans. They don't really care much of what he says about John McCain. In a 16-person field, well, and if you get 20 to 25 percent, and this is the point he made to us yesterday, is, you're going to be in the top three, if not the top two.

[14:10:28] BALDWIN: And it just takes the top 10 to get to that first - that first debate.

CUSACK: Yes.

BALDWIN: That - that will be must see TV.

Bob Cusack, editor in chief at "The Hill." Thank you so much, sir. I really appreciate it.

CUSACK: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, the jail being investigated there in Texas as Sandra Bland tried killing herself in the past. This as we hear about a surprising discovery here from the autopsy. We have that.

Also, another huge setback for Bill Cosby. Hear why the comedian may soon have to testify under oath involving rape allegations in the Playboy mansion.

And a disturbing warning, ISIS now a bigger threat to the United States than al Qaeda. What is it about this that has the FBI chief so concerned? You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:15:17] BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

The woman found dead in a Texas jail cell may have tried to kill herself in the past. This detail comes from the Waller County Jail documents that Sandra Bland filled out after her arrest on July 10th. Three days later, she was found hanging in her cell.

Now, the sheriff says it was suicide and he released Bland's intake form with her handwritten responses. This is how it reads. Quote, "have you ever been very depressed?" "Yes" is marked. "Do you feel this way now?" "Yes." "Have you this thoughts of killing yourself in the last year?" "Yes." "Are you thinking about killing yourself today?" No." "Have you ever attempted suicide?" "Yes," the form indicates. It gives the year saying it was because she, quote, "lost a baby."

But while the paperwork may help to confirm it was a suicide, it also contradicts it because another page - and this is type written - it shows this, under the query, "attempted suicide," the answer is "no." And then there is the autopsy. A preliminary autopsy result indicate - may also support the idea that Bland suffered from depression as marked in the documents.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELTON MATHIS, WALLER COUNTY, TEXAS, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: In the case of the - what an opinion of the medical examiner appears to be cutting scars on the arm. It's just her arm where - I don't know how to describe it - it looks like where someone has been cut over time. Some of those actually appeared to be fresher and that they were scabbed.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: The district attorney also says Bland had marijuana in her system. We are expecting a news conference from that D.A. in just about an hour from now.

Meantime, her family, as we've reported, is conducting its own independent autopsy. My next guest has a unique perspective on this area, the situation. He's DeWayne Charleston. He was the first black justice of the peace there in Waller County, Texas, in 2003. In 2010, he did pled guilty to corruption but he is now leading vigils here, has maintained close, close contact with Sandra Bland's family. DeWayne Charleston joins me now from Hempstead, Texas.

Welcome, sir. Thank you for joining me.

DEWAYNE CHARLESTON, FORMER WALLER COUNTY, TEXAS, JUDGE: Thank you, Brooke, for having me.

BALDWIN: First question just on the family, has the family, Duane, said anything to you about this - what this autopsy indicated about the cutting marks on her body? Did she show any outward signs that she was also depressed?

CHARLESTON: No, I have not talked to the family regarding it.

BALDWIN: The day after , Duane -

CHARLESTON: But let me say - but let me say - but let me say this.

BALDWIN: Please continue.

CHARLESTON: I mean this - that - that has - that has nothing to do with - I mean this is a sideshow and I think that the focus needs to be on what happened in that jail, not what happened any time before, not what happened in 2005, not what happened in 1995. That's a sideshow. It needs to be what happened in the jail. What happened at the - in front of the AMEN Church, what happened in the jail. Character assassination.

BALDWIN: I understand and I know the family wants to understand what happened in the jail. But I think from the medical perspective, they do - they are interested in what could have led to something like this. Just that said, the day after she was arrested, Sandra Bland called her friend from jail. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDRA BLAND: Hey, this is me. I'm um, I just was able to see the judge. I don't really know, they got me set at a $5,000 bond. I'm - I'm still just at a loss of words, honestly, about this whole process. How did switching lanes with no signal turn into all of this? I don't even know. Um, but I'm still here, so I guess call me back when you can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Obviously she's concerned in the voicemail about her bond. Not any obvious signs of distress. I know her family, who you've been in contact with, absolutely insists she never would have killed herself. But, DeWayne, if it comes to be that it is proven to be suicide, I know you've said the Waller County sheriff, this sits on his shoulders. Tell me how you mean.

CHARLESTON: Well, absolutely. Whatever happened in that jail happened under his care in custody and control. But listen, the state is talking about, we're going to be completely transparent. We're going to be completely transparent. There are two ways that the state could be completely transparent. The first thing to do, they can do is, they can do the way they always do it, go before a grand jury. You select the people, the jurors in private. You hold all the hearings in private. And everything - all of the evidence is done in private. That's what is typically done and that what is typically excluded African-Americans and other people of minority descent.

There's another way that it can take place if we really want to not have transparency. Within the next seven to 10 days, the state can pay for Charlie Karis (ph), the judge, Judge Charlie Karis to have a public inquest hearing right here in Hempstead where he can bring in the medical examiner, he can bring in everybody who was in the jail. He can ask all kinds of questions of the troopers. He can ask everybody everything and it can completely be wide open. All of this transparency talk, get rid of the grand jury. Find out what happened in the jail and do it in the JP court with Judge Charlie Karis. You know, they're doing all this character assassination and it drives me nuts. It drives me nuts. Character assassination, it has nothing to do with her.

[14:20:35] BALDWIN: I hear your frustration, sir, and I know, you know, I know this family is frustrated as well.

CHARLESTON: Yes.

BALDWIN: Can we also - I mean it's significant just because of your voice in this community. I know - I know you have been in contact with this family. As we mentioned, you were the first black justice of the peace elected in this county. Can you just tell me a little bit about - for those of us who have never been to this part of Texas, what is this area like? What was it like growing up there for you?

CHARLESTON: Well - well, see, my mother had six children. Five us were born in the black hospital (INAUDIBLE). My mother went into labor with my youngest son, she gave birth to him in a utility closet with dust mops all around her because they would not allow her to give birth in the normal room. They wouldn't let her give birth in a normal room in the neighboring city. She gave birth to my son - to my youngest brother in a utility closet. Fast forward 40, 50 years, and you've still got literally segregated cemeteries. You still have funeral homes who refuse to even pick up black bodies. White funeral homes who won't even pick up black bodies. I complained about it for 10, 15 years. From the cradle to the grave, there's racism here. You've got a population of 8 -- 7,000 wonderful students, wonderful students, circled around by a largely white population. There's a cultural clash. There's a racial clash. And we've got to do something about it but we can't have reconciliation if we don't have justice. And every time we have injustice, we put us a step further behind in racial reconciliation. There's a tension that has been here for a century and it's not going away soon.

BALDWIN: I understand you guest teach sometimes, DeWayne, is that right? You talk to these young people often?

CHARLESTON: Yes.

BALDWIN: And in these times you talk to young people in this part of Texas, you talk to them about driving around this county or driving - avoiding it, right? Driving around it. Tell me why.

CHARLESTON: You know, my son moved to California. You know, I'm born and raised here and it is just like it's not fair that I was just dying for my son to leave Texas and I was dying for my daughter to leave Texas. My son got pulled over by a state trooper just before he left and they said it smelled - like they smelled a dead body in the back of his car. He got out of the car and he complied, but he was frustrated, he was angry and he kept saving his money so he could move to California. My daughter is going. I'm glad.

But here with Sandra Bland, Sandra Bland, remember, say her name, Sandra Bland told her mother, I'm coming back to Texas, when most people are trying to leave, I'm coming back to Texas and I want to deal with racial injustice and all other matters of injustice in Texas. That's Sandy Bland. We need to keep the focus on Sandy Bland. And so that's the story that I will continue to tell students (INAUDIBLE) and all over the county. Think about Sandy Bland. Go to her FaceBook page, listen to her - to her videos. Incredible message. Incredible message. She was not an angry black woman. She was somebody who had been abused at that police stop. She responded like any other intelligent person would respond had they been treated - had they been saying, "I'm going to light you up." She responded to it like anybody else would have responded. I'm proud of Sandy Bland. I wish I had had her courage. Proud of her.

BALDWIN: Mr. Charleston, may I ask you this, just given this picture you're painting, and especially I hear you talking about your son and daughter and frustrations there with law enforcement from their own personal experiences, why is it so important for you to remain and live where you were born?

CHARLESTON: Well, I did leave. I - you know, I left, but my father's still living. He's 87 years old. He's pastor of his church for almost 50 years. I wanted to come back and be with him and I love being back at home. I love being at Perview (ph). I love the energy that I get from the people at Perview and the students at Perview. I publish a local paper and I want to be an integral part of the community.

It's important. I believe Perview and I believe in Perview and I believe that it's not over. It's not over. And Sandy is just another chapter - she's another chapter that's getting us towards that destination. And I think she's going to be an encouragement to the students. No, I know Sandy Bland is going to be an encouragement to the students for many future generations. And I'm glad to be able to be here and speak where Sandy can't speak. BALDWIN: DeWayne Charleston, thank you for sharing your voice with us.

I really appreciate it.

CHARLESTON: Thank you so much.

BALDWIN: Thank you, sir.

[14:24:55] Next, the California Supreme Court denying Bill Cosby's request to review a case against him, meaning that case will go forward. So the real question is this, could Bill Cosby be forced to testify?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Bottom of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Just wanted to let you know, we saw Donald Trump get off that plane right ahead of his border tour there in Laredo, Texas. He's now just spoken. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to - we're going to do a formal press conference after the tour of the border.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hello, everybody.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome to Laredo, Mr. Trump.

TRUMP: that's right, we're going to make a tour. We're going to the border. And we'll see you later. Hopefully we'll see you later.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you feel about the union - the border union backing out (INAUDIBLE) here?

TRUMP: Well, they're petrified and they're afraid of saying what's happening and they - you know, they're the ones that invited me. they wanted to give me an award and the border patrol, they're petrified of saying what's happening because they have a real problem here and I'm talking about on the whole border and they invited me and then all of a sudden they went told "silencio," they want silent. So it's a problem that we will get straightened out. If I win, believe me, we'll get things straightened out.

[14:30:08] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Trump, do you think it's a great danger to being here for you?

TRUMP: Well, they say it's a great danger, but I have to do it. I love the country.