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CONNECT THE WORLD
Saif al-Islam Sentenced to Death; Top AI Scientists Warn Against Weaponization; NATO Gives Unanimous Support To Turkey; President Obama Speaks at African Union Headquarters. Aired 11:00a-12p ET
Aired July 28, 2015 - 11:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:00:07] ISA SOARES HOST: Shoulder to shoulder, NATO gives its full political support to Turkey in the fight against ISIS and Kurdish
militants. Coming up, we'll see how far that support for Ankara goes.
Also ahead this hour: condemned to die, the UN (inaudible) Tripoli court sentences the son of Libya's former leader to death. We'll talk to
an attorney for Saif al-Islam Gadhafi.
And robots with a mind of their own? Why a growing number of famous thinkers say artificial intelligence has gone too far.
ANNOUNCER: Live from CNN London, this is Connect the World.
SOARES: Welcome to the show.
This hour, Turkey has won the full backing of NATO for what it calls its broad new war on terror. An emergency NATO summit wrapped up a short
time ago in Brussels. Turkey called the extraordinary session saying it's facing security threats on two fronts.
Last week, if you'll remember, it begun bombing not only ISIS targets, but also PKK forces in northern Iraq. NATOs' chief says Turkey didn't ask
for military assistance, but received unanimous political support. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENS STOLTENBEG, NATO SECRETARY-GENERAL: Terrorism in all its forms can never be tolerated or justified. NATO is following developments very
closely. And we stand in strong solidarity with our ally Turkey.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Well, let's get the very latest from international correspondent Nic Robertson who has been following developments from
Nic, there's bits of color coming out from this meeting. But set up for us what Turkey asked from NATO, and also how it set out its security
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Turkey had this opportunity by calling this article four meeting. There have only been
five in the history of NATO so far. The last one that Turkey called was the summer of 2012. And they asked for more military support.
This was different. They didn't ask for that this time. Last time, they got that military support -- PATRIOT missile batteries to help defend
their border from Syria's forces.
What they went in this time saying is this is our perception of our security situation, our threat assessment has changed. Their threat
assessment prior had been that the PKK, the Kurdish Workers Party was at the top with Assad and potentially Iranian expansion in Syria was next, and
ISIS sort of a distant third. Now they've put ISIS much higher up.
So they came in and set that out and said this is what we're doing about it.
So, if you're those 27 other NATO ambassadors sitting around the table, and you've been waiting for a long time for Turkey to step up and
play the expected role that it's expected of it as a NATO member, to take on the fight against ISIS, you will have been listening carefully to try to
figure out is this a temporary move or is this something that they're going to sustain. Is the fact that they're lumping in targeting the PKK,
something that's going to give the prime minister's AK Party a political boost, because they haven't formed a coalition government. There could be
more elections later this year.
Or is this fight against ISIS really going to be sustained? And of course that's the key thing for NATO.
SOARES: So, the majority of NATO ambassadors' support of this were any raised eyebrows do you think?
ROBERTSON: You know, we're told not. The Secretary-General of NATO Jens Stoltenberg was asked that question and he flatly said, no, this is
unanimity. He didn't go into a great deal of detail.
But what this does allow Turkey to do is to continue this action against the PKK and against ISIS and potentially come back in the future
and say we have these specific military needs. We may come back to you and say that we need this military help.
But, you know, Turkey was in quite a situation here. There were -- they got five PATRIOT missile batteries from that request a few years ago.
But there was a potential here that they may have been pulled out. And Turkey here has sort of stepped up to the plate. It was -- the NATO
meeting summit here last year where it was agreed that all NATO members would try to surround ISIS, if you think of where ISIS is on the map in
Iraq and in Syria, the one place, the one border where ISIS has a connection to the outside world for resupply of people, resupply of
weapons, is through Turkey. And only now Turkey has taken an important strategic step to plug that hole.
SOARES: Yeah, and many are surprised of the fact that only now Turkey is deciding to change its -- the shift, really, we're seeing in action.
Talk us through the buffer zone. The idea of the creation of this buffer zone. Where does NATO sit on that?
ROBERTSON: NATO was again very clear. The Secretary-General was asked that question as well after the meeting. And he said, no, this is
not something that NATO is involved in. This is a bilateral agreement between Turkey and the United States, that this buffer zone that we're
talking about is perhaps 60 miles long, 40 miles deep inside Syria.
It does two things for NATO and for Turkey, too, of course, it cuts off ISIS's routes in and out of Syria. It does two things. For NATO and
for Turkey, too, of course, it cuts off ISIS's routes in and out of Syria.
But for Turkey as well it has the added advantage that it was watching this band of Turkish control over the border with Syrian Kurds that was
beginning to extend all the way along the sort of Syrian-Turkish border. So it does sort of put a block in the middle of that.
Now, some analysts are saying despite the fact that the United States is saying we're not going to -- in this safe zone where we will support
groups on the ground, they're saying we're not going to give it sort of a safe fly cover, if you will, put aircraft over it and permanently monitor
But there are some analysts who are saying potentially that's really what the United States and Turkey are getting into. If you are going to
make that a safe zone, if you're going to protect it from Bashar al-Assad's barrel bombs, which are huge recruiting sergeants for ISIS and you want to
defeat ISIS you've got to be able to stop the barrel bombs, so you've got to be able to patrol the air zone. That air zone may extend beyond the
perimeters that are being talked about here.
So, some people are reading this as a potential beginning of a very major step. It is a significant step by Turkey, it is a significant step
in the thwarting of ISIS. But it is being read as potentially a bigger step to a final dynamic to begin to solve the Syria crisis.
SOARES: And then obviously the main question, which we haven't got time for is what exactly, what kind of impact does this leave -- does this
actually weaken ISIS at all. That's a whole other conversation. Nic Robertson...
ROBERTSON: And Bashar al-Assad as well.
SOARES: And Bashar al-Assad as well. Thank you very much, Nic, great to get your perspective.
We'll have much more on our top story just ahead, including a full report from Istanbul. Even if NATO backs Turkey's two pronged offensive
against terror, some allies are urging it not to give up on the peace process with the Kurds.
We'll also get more on NATO's role in this crisis from a military expert with the Royal United Services Institute. So don't miss that.
Now, the son of a former Libyan leader Moammar Gaghafi has been been sentenced to death. A court in Tripoli found Saif al-Islam guilty for his
role in the crushing of protests during the 2011 revolution. But he wasn't present at the trial as he's being held by militants in another part of the
The UN high commissioner for human rights and others are criticizing the proceedings, saying they fail to meet international standards of
fairness. CNN's Jomana Karasheh has reported extensively from Libya and joins us now from Amman in Jordan.
Jomana, great to see you.
Paint us picture, if you don't mind, of what happened in this trial, because this is a mass trial that's been taking place since early last year
JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Isa, this is a trial of more than 30 former members of the Gadhafi regime, some of them
very senior figures, the faces of the Gadhafi regime including Saif al- Islam Gadhafi, the trial started last year concluded today with the verdicts and the sentencing of more than 30 of these officials.
And as you mentioned, Saif Gadhafi was never present in this trial, because since 2011, since he was captured by former rebels from the city of
Zintan in the western mountains of Libya, this is where they kept him. They would not hand him over to Tripoli.
And what they did at the beginning, Isa, was that they allowed him to appear via videolink in this trial. We saw that happen for a number of
sessions, about four of those sessions last year. And then there was no longer coordination between Tripoli and Zintan after that chaos that
happened in the country and a civil conflict that led to the creation of two different governments in Libya with the city of Zintan in the western
mountains allied with the government in eastern Libya, while the trial was going on in Tripoli where you have a self-declared government and a
different government here.
And Zintan has refused to hand him over in the past to Tripoli. They've also refused to hand him over to the International Criminal Court
in The Hague where he's also wanted there on -- facing charges of crimes against humanity also relating to the 2011 uprising and what role he may
have played in suppressing that uprising or attempts to suppress it at that time.
So really here, Isa, a lot of questions about what happens next since he is not in Tripoli.
Other officials, like the former spy chief Abdullah Senussi, for example, are in Tripoli. They were in court. And these sentences, when it
comes to the death sentence, eight other officials were sentenced to death. This needs to be confirmed by the supreme court. But it's not clear what
happens to Saif.
Lots of concerns about what happens in a country that's run by militias pretty much right now.
SOARES: Yeah, I suppose the question now is how likely that this sentenced will be served given what you pointed out that he's being held by
-- in Zintan by military groups.
But talk to us a bit, if you can, Jomana, about this trial, because it has been marred in controversy with human rights groups and indeed
International Criminal Court questioning its standards. Tell us why.
[11:10:12] KARADSHEH: Well, we've heard from the United Nations today, as you mentioned earlier, Isa, saying that they were really
disturbed. They were concerned about these sentences, because they said that the trial did not meet the international standards for a fair trial,
something that we have heard watchdog groups say over the past year, since this trial has started.
If you look at the situation on the ground in Libya, it is hard to imagine how you would be able have a fair trial considering the widespread
weapons and militias in that country. I have been to this trial, I have attended a number of these sessions last year, that complex where the trial
is taking place is controlled by militias who also are in control of the prison where these defendants were being held.
There was concerns also raised about legal representation. Some of their lawyers who are not able to come to Tripoli, if they were coming from
outside the country or from Libyan lawyers who were concerned about their own safety appearing there.
We heard from the prosecutor-general in Libya today saying that this trial was fair and that it had nothing to do with politics. But of course
lots of concerns about how fair or how flawed this trial really was, Isa.
SOARES: Indeed. Jomana, Karadsheh for us in Amman, Jordan. Thanks very much Jomana.
And like Jomana was saying later on here on Connect the World, the lawyer hired to represent Gadhafi before the International Criminal Court
calls the Tripoli proceedings a show trial. Hear what he has to say about that case and the future of his client next.
Plus, as artificial intelligence comes along in leaps and bounds, Scientists are warning of a threat from killer robots. We'll talk to the
man who has rallied 1,000 experts to call for a ban. That's in 30 minute's time.
SOARES: Welcome back to Connect the World.
Now U.S. President Barack Obama is on his way back home after a five day visit to Africa. He closed out his trip a few hours ago by becoming
the first American president to address the African Union. Mr. Obama told the roomful of African leaders gathered in Ethiopia's capital. They have a
strong partner and friend in the United States. But he urged them to respect democracy and step aside when their term ends.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thank you.
Look at Nelson Mandela. Madiba, like George Washington, forged a lasting legacy not only because of what they did in office, but because
they were willing to leave office and transfer power peacefully.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Now the chairman of the African Union commission Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma introduced President Obama ahead of his speech you saw there.
Now Nkosazana, she joins us now.
Madam, thank you very much for joining us.
President Obama's speech touched on democracy, governance and human rights. How was it received by the African Union?
[11:15:18] NKOSAZANA DLAMINI-ZUMA, AFRICAN UNION COMMISSION CHAIRPERSON: Well, I think it was well received, because the African Union
is not -- is in favor of democracy, a lot of our countries are now democratic. And in fact using the most as they shows the many more
countries and many more people are better governed today than they were two decades ago. And Africans also are in favor of human rights. So, I think
it was well received.
SOARES: Chairwoman, tell us a bit from your personal experience sitting there having introduced him what stood out to you, what was -- what
did you find most inspiring?
DLAMINI-ZUMA: Well, I think first of all it was just inspiring that the president of the United States of America was at the African Union
Commission at the African Union headquarters. And of course that he is also of some heritage -- African heritage. His father is African. So the
combination of the two was very inspiring for us.
And of course we also know that he's made it, and it wasn't easy, but obviously was very focused and became the president at a young age.
And I think that inspired a lot of young people.
But also the fact that he's paying some attention to Africa. As we know when he came in, he talked about agriculture and that Africa should be
able to feed itself. And today he's talked at length about skilling young people, giving them job opportunities, giving them opportunities to
innovate and also women, the fact that it is important to give girls equal opportunities as boys. And to allow women to reach their full potential.
So that also to us was very important, because as you know in our Africa, a gender 2063 the Africa we want our most important priority is our
people, investing in our people. We have decided that we need a skills revolution. So for us it was very important that he touched a lot on that.
SOARES: Yeah, he was very inspiring, but he also threw some almighty swings at some African leaders, in particular, it seems, of Burundi who
recently won a controversial third term as president. How was that received? I mean, from seeing I remember that being the loudest applause,
basically telling people that leaders have got -- have to step down when it comes to their term.
Do you think that was well liked? Do you think that was important he made that point there?
DLAMINI-ZUMA: Well, I think it's important for Burundi because it's important to ensure that the situation in Burundi does not escalate into an
open conflict. Because I don't think that people of Burundi can afford another conflict. Their government had done well for 10 years, and we hope
that thy will find a solution amongst Burundians helped by the east African community to ensure that stability remains -- returns to Burundi.
So, I think we, ourselves, as the AU, had not gone to the -- to monitor the elections because we felt that the environment wasn't
conducive. So -- but our main concern is that there must be peace in Burundi, yes.
SOARES: Thank you very much. Chairwoman of the African Union Commission Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma taking the time to speak to us today.
And Mr. Obama said African leaders should respect their constitutions and step down when their term ends. He said, quote, "nobody should be
president for life."
Madam, Chairwoman, thank you very much taking time to speak to us.
I want to return you now to another one of our top stories. The son of former Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi has been sentenced to death.
This is Saif al-Islam Gadhafi four years ago parading through Tripoli in Libya. He seems confident that the regime supporters surrounding him
with crush Libya's Arab Spring revolution.
Here is some of that fighting that erupted after. Large parts of the country were devastated, and estimates for the death toll in the tens of
thousands as government forces try to keep power amid civil war and NATO air campaigns.
The International Criminal Court claims jurisdiction claims in the case against Saif al-Islam and has repeatedly demanded that he be turned
over to The Hague for trial.
Joining me now is Saif al-Islam's lawyer in that case John Jones. He's joining me now from The Hague.
Mr. Jones, thank you very much to take the time to speak to us. Let me first get your reaction to the trial and the sentence that was handed
JOHN JONES, SAID AL-ISLAM'S LAWYER: Well, the trial was clearly show trial from start to finish. It's really a kangaroo court, which lacks any
legitimacy, which has passed these sentences. And that's been clear for a long time. And indeed Libya's own minister of justice has condemned the
trial as being utterly unlawful.
So, it comes as no surprise that the court has preemptorally (ph) handed out death sentences to several accused who had not even a semblance
of a fair trial.
SOARES: Let me ask you this, John. I mean, I know you represent Saif al-Islam at the International Criminal Court, but do you know speaking to
your client how testimonies were conducted here or how evidence was obtained? How difficult it was to just kind of follow proceedings? Can
you give us a bit of color on that?
JONES: Well, I should say as you've said I represent him in relation to the International Criminal Court proceedings. And I wasn't involved.
And I would not be involved in the proceedings in Tripoli because of that - - lack of legitimacy.
And I'm not in contact with Saif Gadhafi because he's being held in solitary confinement incommunicado detention.
But nonetheless, I'm following the proceedings -- have been following proceeings in Tripoli to the extent that independent monitors have been
able to follow parts of it. And what emerges is a very clear picture of abuses across the board.
First of all, the detainees have complained of being tortured, Abu Zaib Doda(ph) said in open court at obvious risk to himself that he had
been tortured. The court didn't look into it. Another detainee General Karabi (ph) died recently of -- as result of inadequate medical treatment.
In terms of the actual evidence which has lead, the prosecution hasn't brought any witnesses who could be cross examined and have their evidence
tested. The prosecution has relied on confessions, clearly obtained by torture or certainly under duress. It's a sort of Medieval approach to
trials that you rely rather than on evidence of witnesses you extract confessions. And for the defense, they don't have any adequate legal
representation. There are lawyers who have been appointed, but then they come and go seemingly between each hearing.
They were only allowed, each defendant, to call two witnesses. And there were no measures for witness protection.
So, in circumstances where in Tripoli there are killings every day, there's -- the trial themselves being held at gunpoint under the Libya Dawn
militia who control the whole thing, no chance really of the defense putting any sort of case forward.
So really it was a fore ordained conclusion that there would be these convictions and these death sentences.
SOARES: OK, let me ask you this in that case John, you call it a show trial, a kangaroo court I believe is what you said in the last few minutes.
Where does this leave -- what options are there left for Saif al-Islam, because you have Libya in a state of chaos split between two rebel
governments, which much of the country controlled by local militia groups. So where does this leave Saif al-Islam?
JONES: Well, I should say fortunately for him he's in Zintan, not in Tripoli. And Zintan, like the Tobruk government, doesn't recognize Tripoli
as having any legitimacy and they've made clear that they are not going to deliver him to Tripoli. And indeed during the proceedings they put a sign
up at one video link hearing to say that they didn't recognize the court.
So fortunately for him, he's not at risk currently of being delivered to the militia in Tripoli and therefore not risk of being executed.
But obviously for those there, there is that real risk.
I see it as a major setback not just for the defendants, but for ordinary Libyan people who have the right to live under the rule of law,
that the country is, as you say, entirely divided between the international recognized government in Tobruk and Libya Dawn in Tripoli.
And so really it's for the international community to make plain that these verdicts are not accepted, that this is not the way that you
transition to a new society.
But as you say, Libya is in a state of chaos, and until that's resolved nothing can be resolved.
SOARES: John Jones, thank you very much.
He is Saif al-Islam's lawyer in the case. They've been following the case in The Hague. Thank you very much.
Important to point out, too, the International Criminal Court, the ICC, had wanted to try Saif al-Islam in The Hague, but in 2013 granted
Libya the right to do so.
Now, we've been covering every angle, as you can see, of Libya's uprising since the very beginning for you. We're going to keep following
that very story.
You can find the latest on Gadafhi and what's happening in Libya by heading over to our website, as you can see there, CNN.com.
Well, Live from London, this is Connect the World. Coming up in 10 minutes, outrage in the West Bank as another Palestinian teenager dies
after an altercation with Israeli forces.
But first we are off to Argentina where an industrial zone in Buenos Aires is getting a new lease on life. That's on One Square Meter next.
[11:27:14] JOHN DEFTERIOS, EMERGING MARKETS EDITOR: The Argentinian capital of Buenos Aires is known for its rich food and passionate dancing.
It's also known for its colorful districts. More recently, the city has been trying to extend this vibrancy to an area called Baracas (ph), a
former industrial zone that was largely abandoned in the 1980s.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Many of the old industries from the 70s became important logistics stones in the last 30 years, but
they have not been very desirable in terms of economic activity due to the negative impacts of its surroundings.
But, there was a lot of space.
DEFTERIOS: With so much disused space, it's been a blank canvas for development. Even more attractive is the price, a mere 600 to 750 per
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The square meter in this area still remains at 40 percent lower compared to the other end in the city.
DEFTERIOS: Local artists like Jugenia Cutica (ph) have seen the benefits. He has a studio here and thinks the district's low cost space is
helping foster creativity.
UNIDENTIIFIED MALE (through translator): Baracas (ph) is a gentrified zone. Ideal, it's big. These industrial spaces are like modern
cathedrals. It's an area that perfectly houses artistic work.
DEFTERIOS: A few blocks away, famed muralist Marino Santa Maria (ph) transformed Pasaje Lanin into one of the city's most colorful streets.
Over the last 15 years, the artist has turned an average street into an open air gallery, splashing bright mosaic murals across walls and
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I wanted to display them on the street so they could interact with people like music does. It really
represented the idea of a new Baracas (ph), the same neighborhood everyone is talking about right now. Art has become its new identity.
DEFTERIOS: Once a place of abandoned warehouses and lost hope, Baracas (ph) is now home to flourishing art district. With costs low and
footfall high, it can also be a promising outlook for those who invest there.
John Defterios, CNN.
[11:32:09] SOARES: This is Connect the World. Welcome back. I'm Isa Soares. Let me bring you up to date with the top stories we've benen
following for you this hour.
NATO's secretary-general says the organization stands in solidarity with Turkey following a wave of violence near the country's border with
Syria. Jen Stoltenberg was speaking at a special meeting of NATO's North Atlantic Council. It was requested by Turkey.
The son of Moammar Gadhafi, Saif al-Islam has been sentenced to death by a Tripoli court. He was convicted for his role in trying to suppress a
2011 rebellion in the country. The UN human rights office criticized the verdict saying the trial did not meet international standards of fairness.
European football president Michel Platini is expected to announce that he's running for the top job at FIFA, which is being vacated by Sepp
Blatter. The former France international has led UEFA since 2007. The special election for the FIFA presidency will take place in February.
U.S. President Barack Obama has left Ethiopia for the second and final stop on his five day trip to Africa. He addressed a meeting of the African
Union on Tuesday and urged its leaders not to cling to power once their terms are up. Mr. Obama also said the U.S. stands with Africa in its fight
against terror groups.
Now I want to return to our top story: NATO's strong show of solidarity with Turkey.
The alliance gave its support to Turkey's anti-terror operations at an emergency summit in Brussels today. Now that support does not include
military assistance. But Turkey is asking allies to be prepared if circumstances change.
Arwa Damon has more from Istanbul.
ARWA DAMON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is not the first time that Turkey itself has requested this type of a meeting, extraordinary
meeting, from NATO. It has done so itself three times in the past -- 2003 and twice in 2012 when it felt that regional violence was severely
threatening its own national security.
But Turkey arguably at this critical juncture in a much more vulnerable position. It has opened actively the front with ISIS, for the
first time getting directly engaged and launching airstrikes against ISIS targets in Syria, all the while reopening that front with the Kurdistan
Worker's Party, the PKK that Turkey at least considers to be a terrorist organization.
And it seems that there has been a shift in thinking in Ankara, a realization that Turkey cannot afford to keep it sitting on the sidelines,
that it has to get actively involved in the fight against ISIS, has to actively be a part of this anti-ISIS coalition so that it can hold on to
its political power in the region.
But opening that front with the PKK further complicates matters for the country, which at this stage faces not just potentially retaliatory
attacks by the PKK when we have already seen this taking place, but the PKK striking various security targets on a smaller scale across the country,
but also more worrisome for the population here, largescale retaliatory attacks to be carried out by ISIS.
The country's president Recep Tayyip Erdogan before boarding a plane to China saying that there may be responsibilities that fall on NATO at a
moments notice. The country asking NATO to be prepared.
Arwa Damon, CNN, Istanbul.
SOARES: Now, Turkey's prime minister says the world's lack of action in Syria allowed ISIS to grow into a powerful terror group. Ahmet
Davutoglu spoke to CNN's chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AHMET DAVUTOGLU, PRIME MINISTER OF TURKEY: ISIS is a product of the crisis, not on the cause of a problem. They are cause of problem now; it is
a much bigger problem than Syria. It is a threat to Turkey. It is a threat to Europe. It is a threat to United States and to the world. But now in
order to eliminate this threat, we have to fight against ISIS, yes. But we have to create new situation in Syria so that there wouldn't be any base
for any terrorist organization to reactivate this type of terrorist activities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Now, NATO welcomed Turkey's fight against ISIS may not be as enthusiastic about its war on the PKK forces, after all Kurdish fighters as
you know, are battling ISIS themselves.
Let's get some analysis now from Michael Clarke. He's the director of the Royal United Services Institute. And Michael, let's start off with it
in terms of what kind of support can NATO forces provide, or willing to provide Turkey in its fight against ISIS and indeed PKK?
MICHAEL CLARKE, ROYAL UNITED SERVICES INSTITUTE: They can provide quite a lot of the backup forces. So aerial surveillance and the
electronic backup, and critically intelligence, meaning both the United States and Britain are running pretty big intelligence operations out of
Cyprus and other places.
So, they can help them with that, as long as they feel that the Turkish forces are not actually going to try to diminish the PKK too much
or really create a bigger problem by attacking the Peshmerga guerrillas in effect who are the ones who are doing the most effective fighting against
SOARES: Let's talk a bit about how difficult this may be for NATO in light of the fact that it's not just fighting ISIS, but also the PKK and
also the YPG who is a key ally of the United States in Syria.
How difficult will it be to keep, you know -- have these three forces there.
CLARKE: It's incredibly difficult. NATO is -- this is the most delicate balancing act I think NATO has ever had to perform within a civil
war. And the YPG that you mentioned are really important, because the Syrian Kurds are far and away the most effective fighters -- the PKK do
what they do. The Peshmerga do what they do. But the YPG are very good.
And the United States only really woke up to this last year and have started to really back the group of the Syrian Kurds. And the more
equipment they give them, the more effective they seem to be.
They're fighting very effectively around Kobani. They've contributed to quite a big reversal of ISIS forces in the north, so they're pretty
important. But they are also the ones that the Turkish government fears the most, because if you look at the border, the Syrian Kurdish border is
the biggest bit of the border. And if the Kurdish homeland that may emerge from this had all that they wanted, they would include 30 percent of
SOARES: Yeah, we're seeing just how large that border is.
Let's talk a bit about how -- you know, you talked about it's a balancing act. Will there be a lot of ambassadors there raising eyebrows
and probably not being so willing in this fight -- I know they've been wanting to, to get support in the fight against ISIS, but do you think
there will be some -- a bit of a hesitance there?
CLARKE: Oh, sure. This is the beginning of a process. This is not a one-off NATO meeting where they haven't decided something which will now
stick. They've decided to start a process. And that process will go forward, so they're trying to back Turkey, but restrain Turkey. Turkey
knows that they need to get back into the NATO fold a bit.
In a way, I mean, Erdogan, the Turkish president, doesn't quite know where to take Turkey. It's a very different country to the country it was
five years or so ago. And so there's an awful lot of scope for changing political positions. And I think this is the beginning of a process that
will go certainly for the rest of this year, but we'll see NATO change its position, we'll see Turkey also try to balance off different positions.
And Mr. Erdogan, he's under a lot of internal pressure himself. So, this is going to get more and more complicated.
Involvement in anyone's civil war is always contradictory, it's always complicated, and forces from the outside end up contradicting themselves
always. There's no way of being consistent in this sort of situation.
SOARES: Yeah. And even inside, I'm surely there will be some sort of political rifts between some of these NATO countries like Germany probably
not willing to actually go all in. The U.S., France perhaps slightly more willing.
Do you think we'll see bigger rifts within NATO?
CLARKE: Yeah. And there's a rift between in the sense the northern and the southern countries of NATO, because where the southern countries
say, you know, we care more about what's happening in the Mediterranean and North Africa, you've got yourself hooked on the ISIL problem, it's actually
not the worst problem we face. And then the north European members of NATO say we worry more about Russia.
And so NATO -- there's 28 nations have all got different security problems. That's very different to the NATO of 12 that was only worried
about the Cold War 20 years ago. This is new territory for NATO.
[11:40:16] SOARES: I like you saying, Michael, this is just the beginning of a very long process.
CLARKE: Absolutely. We'll be here a lot more.
SOARES: I'm sure we'll have you on more to explain it all. Thank you very much, Michael.
Now, disastrous results, that's what Palestinian officials say Israel is inviting with what they describe as daily killings of Palestinian
people. Thousands attended the funeral of a Palestinian teen who died during a confrontation with Israeli security forces. Exactly how he died
is hotly disputed and the same can be said for another case that is similar in some ways.
The violence took place at Kalandia (ph) refugee in the West Bank. CNN's Erin McLaughlin went there to investigate.
ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The body of 20-year-old Mohammad Abu Latifa taken for burial, gunfire for his funeral. About all his family
and Israeli forces agree on is that he died after running away.
The Israelis had come to his house at dawn to arrest him and another man. They had been suspected of planning an attack.
Abu Latifa ran to the roof. The border police say they fired at his legs and say he was critically injured after he fell fro ma rooftop.
His family denies he fell.
"They shot him. All the injuries were to the bottom of his body, then he was arrested," his uncle says. "After less than an hour, we were
informed he was dead."
Now his mother weeps over his grave. Beside her, the fresh tomb of 18-year-old Mohammed al Kasbah. Three weeks ago, a high ranking Israeli
commander shot him dead. Video shows he was running away.
It shows al Kasbah throw a stone at an Israeli vehicle and then he runs. Colonel Yasser al Shomer (ph) and another soldier exit the car ready
to fire. The shooting happens out of frame.
The incident was recorded on a camera at this gas station. It took place just over that way. Palestinian medical report says he was shot
three times -- twice to the back and once to the side of his face.
The Israeli military says it's still investigating. It released photos of these shattered Israeli windshield and an undated photo of al
Kasbah holding a machine gun. The military put out a statement. The commander, fearing a lynch that would place his subordinates and himself in
mortal danger exited his vehicle and implemented standard procedure for the apprehension of suspects.
After its own investigation, the Israeli human rights group Bet Salam (ph) was skeptical of the military's explanation.
SARIT MICHAELI, HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST: It's impossible to see how a youth who was running away from you can pose a mortal danger that would
justify you know shooting to kill at him.
MCLAUGHLIN: High ranking government officials expressed support for the Israeli commander. On his official Facebook page, education minister
Naftali Bennett posted, "the man comes to kill you, kill him first. I fully back the Binyamin Brigade Commander who acted against a terrorist to
protect himself and the lives of his soldiers. This is the conduct that we expect from IDF commanders."
MICHAELI: This is sending a very clear message to soldiers that this is acceptable and even desirable behavior.
MCLAUGHLIN: This is the third son al-Kasbah's mother has buried. Two other sons were killed about 15 years ago during the second intifada. She
says she has little hope for justice.
"Every time a new generation comes, they cut them off and kill them," she says.
Down the road from al-Kasbah's house, Palestinian youth throw more stones at Israeli soldiers, protests of the latest Palestinian deaths.
The soldiers fire back, both real and rubber bullets, and the cycle continues.
Erin McLaughlin, CNN, Kalandia (ph) refugee camp, The West Bank.
SOARES: Live from London, this is Connect the World. Coming up, we take a look at the many different cultures in Morocco through the eyes of
And could this cutie ever become a killer? Some of the world's more preeminent scientists are warning about the dangers of artificial
intelligence. We'll ask one researcher why he's worried. That's just ahead.
[11:46:44] SOARES: From robots with a sense of rhythm, whose makers say they can read your emotions and show their own, to recordbreaking
bionic animals that recognize and sail over all obstacles in their path. Two even electronic employees capable of intelligent interaction. And
already taking their place in the workplace of the future.
If you look closely enough, the 21st Century robot revolution is in full swing all around us.
Welcome back to Connect the World. This hour, we're looking at one particular kind of robotic revolution. I'm talking, of course, about
killer robots, or scientists call them autonomous weapons, defense systems using artificial intelligence are already being experimented with.
Israel's Iron Dome missile defense shield is programmed to automatically detect and target incoming rockets. South Korea has had
armed sentry robots along its northern border for almost a decade.
Now more than 1,000 scientists and researchers have warned that killer robots are, quote, a third revolution in warfare. In an open letter
(inaudible) I'm going to quote them here, "unlike nuclear weapons, they require no costly or hard-to-obtain raw materials, so they will become
ubiquitous and cheap for all significant military powers to mass produce."
It goes on to say, "it would only be a matter of time until they appear on the black market in the hands of terrorists, dictators wishing to
better control their populace, warlords wishing to perpetrate ethnic cleansing," and much more.
Well, for more, I want to bring in the man who heads the organization that launched that appeal for a ban on killer robots. That's Max Tegmark,
who is president of the Future of Life Institute.
He's also physics professor at MIT from where he joins us now.
And Max , you are among the 1,000 artificial intelligence specialists who put together this open letter that we just mentioned. Tell us why
you're calling for a global ban on killer robots, in specific details if you can.
MAX TEGMARK, MIT: Yeah, so these -- over 1,000 world experts on AI are saying that artificial intelligence has huge benefits it can bring to
society from curing diseases to solving so many other problems where we need more intelligence. But making autonomous offensive weapons is not one
of those benefits. And that's something we should really steer clear of.
For example, if a bunch of drones just show up and start killing people you have no idea who even sent them. And this makes them a perfect
weapon for terrorists, groups like ISIS who can greatly benefit from acting anonymously and with impunity.
SOARES: Sure, but let's talk a bit about robot soldiers, because you know they're still, I believe, confined to the drawing board. How soon do
you think think military realistically, do you think, could be fielding one?
TEGMARK: Well, we're going to see very soon, if they're not banned, are not robot soldiers like in the Terminator, which is more Sci-Fi and
actually less useful, but rather flying drones, for example, which make the perfect target for assassination or if you're a dictator and you want to do
ethnic cleansing, these robots can very easily fly in and look who has the facial features of a given ethnic group and decide those are the enemies
and kill them.
And if you were a dictator and your own human soldiers don't have the heart to follow your orders, these drones will do it anyways.
So, there's a broad sense that these sort of weapons are not going to benefit the leading powers in the world like the U.S., China, Russia as
much as they're going to ultimately benefit the terrorists and others who don't have the wherewithal and technology to develop it themselves. And
therefore these people are saying that, you know, let's do just like biologists were against building biological weapons and chemists didn't
want to build chemical weapons, here are the AI community saying, hey, let's use AI for good and not build these offensive AI weapons.
SOARES: Max, stay with us for a minute, because I want to bring our viewers up to just explain a bit about Asimov's laws. I'm sure you'll be
able to explain it better than I can. But, you know, science fiction writers have warned the use of threat posed by killer robots for decades.
And one of the genre's giants that I'm sure Max knows is Isaac Asimov, who tried to avoid this with three laws of robotics.
And just for our viewers, I'm going to break it down for you. The first law, the first rule, really, is the robot may not injure a human
being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. And the second one is a robot must obey orders given it by a human beings except
where such orders would conflict with the first law. And then the third one is a robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection
does not conflict with the first of second law.
The bottom line, as you can clearly see, don't hurt people.
But let me ask you this, Max, going back to this discussion we're having. You know, I was reading an interesting article in the Financial
Times today. And the Pentagon is one of the biggest backers, I believe, according to the FT, of robotic research. And the concern is among western
military is that if they failed to pursue this technology, other countries will get there first, and particular the likes of China.
How worried are you about this?
[11:51:51] TEGMARK: What this grass roots movement of researchers from 62 countries are saying is, of course, it's not one country that
should forfeit this. Either nobody is going to build it, because there's an agreed ban, or everybody is going to build it.
And there is a lot of good precedent for the world -- top military powers getting together and deciding not to build certain things. There
was a recent ban on blinding laser weapons. There's been a ban on space based nuclear weapons, not to mention biological-chemical weapons.
But we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves. The first step here is simply to build the will -- to push for a ban from the nations around the
world. And the U.S. military that you mentioned has actually bee quite open-minded about considering this. Right now all decisions ever made to
kill somebody are made by people. And a lot of people in the military would really like to keep it this way.
SOARES: Max Tegmark, the president of the Future of Life Institute. Thank you very much. It's a fascinating discussion. I'm sure we'll talk
again. Thanks, Mark.
Now, in tonight's Parting Shots, we take a look at Morocco and the different faces, cultures and lifestyles that can be seen around the world.
SOARES: In tonight's Parting Shots, we take a look at the many different faces, cultures and lifestyle of Morocco seen through the eyes of
Photojournalist Sakita Joaquin (ph). Take a look.
[11:55:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is my series Amutu (ph). Amutu (ph) is a word in Berber, which means a journey of trouble (ph). Morocco,
it's a hard country to define. You have to talk about regions if you want to (inaudible) it, because around the desert through the snowy Atlas
mountains cultures change, human faces radically change, their way of life, their kinship.
A little town called Isaweyah (ph), Isaweyah (ph) used to be an important harbor. A lot of ancient trade and slavery. During this trouble
(ph), we can move from (inaudible) town to another, and there's nothing between them, maybe some kids playing on the ground (inaudible) gets
curious about where are they from? Because their villages are always far away.
I've tried to still a lot of faces. Some people get quite vulnerable. These towns, you're always in the midst of a crowd, but you can always get
this lonely feeling, see different faces all masked, don't know who is who. It's the feeling, the feeling of the city.
SOARES: Beautiful photos there from Zakatiya Joanquin (ph).
And before we go, we have some news just coming in to CNN. A prison worker accused of helping two convicted killers escape last month, if
you'll remember, has just pleaded guilty to charges in the case. Joyce Mitchell was arrested last month days after the two men escaped in upstate
New York. She pleaded guilty to promoting prison contraband and criminal facilitation. She now faces up to seven years in prison.
One of the escaped convicts was eventually captured, the other was shot and killed by law enforcement.
We'll have much more on this in a live report coming up no the International Desk.
In the meantime, that does it for this hour. I'm Isa Soares. And that was Connect the World. Thank you very much for watching.