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Debris from Aircraft a "Major Lead" in MH370 Search; Russia Vetoes U.N. Tribunal over MH17; Migrant Numbers Surge in Calais; British PM Pledges More Migrant Deportations; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired July 30, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: a major lead in the search for the missing plane MH370. A team of investigators will now

examine debris found on an island in the Indian Ocean. Sixteen months later, could this be a clue to finally solving a mystery? Australia's

leading research and the High Commissioner joined me here in the studio.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEXANDER DOWNER, HIGH COMMISSIONER OF AUSTRALIA TO THE UNITED KINGDOM: ... if it is a piece of debris from the plane, it does suggest that the

search area they're looking in might well be the right area.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Also ahead, the British prime minister delivers a strong warning to migrants in Calais, who are desperately trying to reach

British shores as the crisis deepens.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

Hope and heartache for the families of the missing MH370 passenger plane as investigators say they are confident the debris found in the southern

Indian Ocean is that of a Boeing 777.

The debris which washed up on the remote island of Reunion on Wednesday is headed to France now for testing and the results could provide the answers

to of the biggest aviation mysteries of our time. It's left 239 families desperate for answers and CNN's Nima Elbagir is in Reunion, the first

international journalist to speak to the local beach cleaner who found the wreckage and she joins me now live.

What is the latest, Nima?

NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we have actually had more debris washing up ashore this morning, Christiane. This time what appears to be

the remnants of a passenger carry case that will also be looked at very closely by investigators.

We spoke to the man whose lucky hunch actually saved much of what investigators are going to be looking very closely at, Christiane. Take a

look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Search helicopters pass overhead, scouring the Saint-Andre shoreline. This is where the plane

debris washed ashore. And this is where it was found by the beach cleanup crews, who dragged it across the pebbles and leant it over there against

that stone wall, cleaning much of the evidence off it in the process. It was only when the police and the special investigation unit turned up that

it began to dawn on them that perhaps they'd discovered something pretty crucial.

He's been working on this stretch of beach for years. As soon as he saw the debris he said he shouted to the rest of the crew to stop what they

were doing. Somehow, he says, he knew what it was.

JOHNNY BEGUE, BEACH CLEANER (through translator): I felt perhaps it's from a plane crash. So I said, "Don't touch it anymore because if it's a plane

crash, then people have died and you have to have respect for them.

ELBAGIR (voice-over): Johnny was right. Local officials told us the barnacles you see in this picture will be vital in establishing where the

debris sank and how long it's been underwater.

This morning more debris washed ashore.

ELBAGIR: It appears to resemble the remnants of a passenger carry case. But of course, until further investigations are carried out, no one knows

for certain.

ELBAGIR (voice-over): Since then, police helicopters have been patrolling this stretch of sea, trying to get a better line of sight on anything and

everything that's heading towards the shore.

For many of the families of those that disappeared on that plane, this is the first time in a very long time that they're beginning to feel some

faint glimmer of hope.

Hope they might finally know what happened.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ELBAGIR: And investigators and authorities here really are feeling that burden, Christiane. We understand that some of that debris is going to be

making its way to Toulouse to try and do this as quickly as they possibly can and to try and start getting answers finally to those grieving

families -- Christiane.

AMANPOUR: Nima, thank you very much and we'll be following what you are following out there. And of course, remember, these families have been

waiting since March of last year, March 2014.

And of course Australia continues to take a leading role in the search for MH370. The deputy prime minister says the debris is, quote, "a major lead"

in the hunt for the missing plane.

Alexander Downer is the Australian High Commissioner to the U.K. He was also the country's foreign minister --

[14:05:00]

AMANPOUR: -- between '96-2007. And I spoke to him earlier today about this investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: High Commissioner, welcome to the program.

ALEXANDER DOWNER, HIGH COMMISSIONER OF AUSTRALIA TO THE UNITED KINGDOM: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: Now Australia, obviously, has been taking the lead in the investigation as we can see by this map. You have had so much

responsibility for the investigation.

This piece that's been found, how important is it at this precise moment?

DOWNER: It's not much of an answer except to say it's potentially important and it's conceivable that this is real evidence of the plane's

disintegration but we're not quite sure --

(CROSSTALK)

DOWNER: -- so I shouldn't be premature.

But it does seem to suggest that the search area, the current search area may be the right search area. It's clearly -- if this is a piece of the

plane somewhere in the southern Indian Ocean, which is where we've been searching for well over a year.

AMANPOUR: And are you as surprised as everybody else or is it just normal tides and currents that have taken it from over here to over here?

DOWNER: Well, remember, the plane crashed in March last year. So it's a long time ago. And according to the maps I've had a look at, of tidal

flows and where debris potentially could be, that would be within the range, somewhere between Reunion Island out there on the west and maybe

Tasmania out on the east.

That is, of course, a huge distance.

AMANPOUR: Just out of interest, I mean, you say 16-17 months since this plane somehow disappeared somewhere.

What is the level of engagement of all your governments at this point?

I mean has everybody been working full speed for all these months?

Or do you have to rev back up into gear now that something has been found?

DOWNER: No, I mean, there is a search, a continuing search underway, which has been going on all of that time at -- obviously at clearly substantial

expense, but the search is continuing.

And if this is evidence, then that might give -- if it is evidence; of course we don't know whether it is, that this is -- the plane has crashed

at least somewhere in that vicinity. Then the -- it'll give the searchers a bit more precision, that's all.

AMANPOUR: Now the families obviously are torn; on the one hand, if it is a piece of evidence, that gives some kind of clarity. But the -- perhaps

not the clarity that those who are really wishfully hoping would have wanted, that this plane hasn't crashed, that somehow their families are

still out there somewhere, just trying to get home.

There's a lot of emotion going on amongst the families right now, I'm sure.

DOWNER: There will be. And from my experience of grieving families, they always want to use that term "finality." They want to find out exactly

what happened. They want to know where it happened and of course, if conceivable, they want the remains to be repatriated and appropriately

buried.

But we're a long way short of that. So I think the problem is that this raises the whole issue, again, in the minds of the families; this will

generate another outburst of grief, understandably, on their part. And we have to open our hearts to them. Of course, a very difficult time.

AMANPOUR: Obviously all of you officials are being careful. And it's "if" and "unconfirmed" and, you know, obviously there's a lot of that.

But I was really interested to hear an analyst and expert tell CNN today that actually the Boeing 777 -- or at least parts -- are built in India and

it could very well be a reject that was tossed away and somehow ended up in the sea not so far from India.

So there's still real possibilities that it may not be this.

DOWNER: That's right. It's still possible. I mean, these components of a Boeing 777 have serial numbers on them. So --

AMANPOUR: Have they found the serial number?

DOWNER: I'm not sure about that.

But if they find the serial -- assuming they find the serial number, I suppose they will, but assuming they find the serial number, then they'll

be able to work out what plane the component came from.

AMANPOUR: You also, as Australians, as the government, as people, have another disaster to contend with and that's the downing of MH17. Australia

lost 38 people in that flight. That also was just under -- just over a year ago, in fact, last summer.

And there was this extraordinary moment in the U.N. Security Council yesterday, when the majority of people raised their hands in order to have

an international tribunal.

The only standout and holdout was the Russian ambassador. Let's look at this for a second.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those against?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

The draft resolution has not been adopted, owing to the negative vote of a permanent member of the council.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So that is the Russian ambassador raising his hand against the notion of a tribunal.

What is your view, as the Australian High Commissioner, as the government?

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DOWNER: Well, our government, in the words of our prime minister, think it's outrageous that Russia should have vetoed this resolution, to exercise

a veto of that kind. I mean, 11 countries out of the 15 on the Security Council voted for it. Three abstained.

But I mean, the really important point is, in the face of an overwhelming demand from the international community, Russia has stood alone and voted

against the establishment of a tribunal to prosecute and bring to justice those responsible for this atrocity. And it can only be described as an

atrocity.

I'm sorry; it reflects extremely badly on Russia. This isn't a biased tribunal, you know, a pro-Western or pro-American or Australian or British

tribunal. This would be a completely independent tribunal.

And I have to say, it reflects incredibly badly on Russia that they should exercise a veto over the establishment of a tribunal like that.

AMANPOUR: What do you make of Russians who say -- and senior level officials who say that actually this is just a politicization of this and

despite what you've just told me, that it's an unbiased attempt to find the culprit and to hold them accountable, they think it's yet another political

whammy against them.

DOWNER: But I mean, first of all, well, no one else fully agreed with them. I mean, no else voted with them on the Security Council. That in

and of itself is not a help to them, it's not comprehensive refutation of them, but it's pretty comprehensive.

And secondly, this is a U.N. tribunal that is -- or was to be set up. So I mean --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Why do you think they've done this, then?

DOWNER: Well, I think they might like to provide their own explanations rather than us second-guess why they might have vetoed such a resolution --

but it will -- all I can say -- and all I can say, because to sort of deal with your point, all I can say is that's exactly the question people will

be asking: why would you veto the establishment of an entirely independent U.N. tribunal?

Sure, the -- what are sometimes called grieving nations, the nations whose citizens died in this atrocity, will continue. I mean, we'll be able to

set up another mechanism. There's no doubt about that. And we'll work to do that. We haven't worked out how quite yet, but we will. And it's been

done before.

AMANPOUR: Does that mean the grieving families will never have an answer?

But you say, no, there --

(CROSSTALK)

DOWNER: I mean, we owe it. I mean, there are 38 of them in Australia. And there are 298 -- or 38 victims and 298 altogether from this atrocity.

And we owe it, Australian government owes it to the victims' families in Australia but we as an international community owe it to those families to

do everything we possibly can to bring the people who perpetrated this atrocity to justice and you can rest assured we will.

I mean, Australians are not undetermined people. And nor are these other nationalities. So, no, we're after those people who are responsible for

this and we'll just keep working at it.

AMANPOUR: High Commissioner Alexander Downer, thank you very much indeed for joining me.

DOWNER: It's a pleasure.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Strong words indeed from the High Commissioner and echoed in a statement from the prime minister, Tony Abbott, following Russia's veto,

who said, "Its actions reinforce concerns that Russia is protecting the perpetrators and continuing to assault the sovereignty of Ukraine."

Now after a break, bound for Britain, migrants who've crossed the seas on dinghies and crossed continents on foot cannot get across the English

Channel. What should be done? We'll ask -- next.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Once a major holiday destination, the French port town of Calais has become a scene of immeasurable desperation for many, fleeing the world's crisis

zones. Thousands of migrants are storming the Channel Tunnel on a nightly basis, risking everything to reach the U.K.

Our Fred Pleitgen talked to some of those, some of the many who dodged death in their search for a better life.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ali Tamimi (ph) from Syria attempted to breach the fences and get on a

truck Tuesday night but then, he says, he saw another man get killed.

"He tried to go through the tunnel with a group of (INAUDIBLE)," he says, "but some of them jumped on the track and were hit. One man died."

Ali Tamimi (ph) is with a group of men from Deir ez-Zor in Eastern Syria. He says he was forced to flee when ISIS took control of the town. They

stay here, an illegal refugee camp, called the Jungle, a couple of miles from the tunnel. He shows me the tents they stay in; seven sleep in this

one. No electricity and very little food.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: The response so far to this crisis has been stern. The French have deployed extra riot police and the British prime minister, David

Cameron, referred to a swarm of migrants. And he's vowing to step up deportations.

Leonard Doyle is the spokesman for the International Organization for Migration, and he joins me now from headquarters in Geneva.

Mr. Doyle, welcome to the program.

LEONARD DOYLE, IOM: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: First and foremost, you know, it's sort of deja vu. All of these people, as our Fred found out there in Calais, have come from all the

war zones that we cover, whether it's Syria, whether it's Ethiopia, whether it's Eritrea, whatever it might be.

What is the solution for them right now?

Is it possible even to think of a solution?

DOYLE: Well, I think it's clear that many of them are absolutely entitled to asylum. They're entitled to refugee status, based on where they come

from and the fears that they've been under violence, that they've been fleeing, as your report so nicely pointed out.

So there's no question that they're deserving of it. What they're not deserving of is being put into a position where they're trying to get to a

safe haven, trying to get asylum, and ending up jumping on trucks and, as we heard, getting killed or seriously injured.

So we've got to have a better way of doing this and many of the European countries point fingers at each other and they're all doing their best, of

course, but they seem to be lacking a coherent policy.

AMANPOUR: Let's just first take the immediate issue before we talk about the coherent policy.

What can France do -- because it's really happening on that side, after all.

Do they need to send more police? Do they need to have, I don't know, areas where they can process asylum requests? What can they do?

Because the British, as you heard, are being incredibly hardline about this.

DOYLE: Well, I think it's important that this be treated as more than a security issue. Obviously there are big security concerns for tourism, for

transport and what have you.

But it is, above all, human -- a humanitarian issue. And if people are being put through this danger, we must first of all treat them well, give

them a safe place to stay and inform them of the risks, inform them of the opportunities, enable them to understand that they're not going to get any

further, they're not going to get the job and the life they hoped, if they're not entitled to refugee status, and give them assistance to get

home in some dignity.

AMANPOUR: How many people are we talking about? And we just talked about the effect it's having. I mean, these are desperate people who are also

causing, for instance, British truck owners and all the rest of it to lose millions and millions of pounds every day, as they're stuck trying to get

through the tunnel.

So it's having an economic impact here.

What should the British be doing? How many -- how -- what are the numbers we're talking about? Is there a swarm, as Cameron said?

DOYLE: Well, I think sometimes language can be overheated and risk diminishing the humanity of these people. There are about 2,000-2,500

migrants, refugees, mixed -- a mixed group in this area, seeking to get to their relatives, seeking to get to a safer place because they choose to.

Now maybe they're not entitled to it; maybe some of them are entitled to. But the situation at the moment is surely not a dignified way to treat

people deserving of asylum.

So I think we need a better way. There's no question about that.

AMANPOUR: What, in your view, I know we've talked a little bit about a better way, trying to figure that out.

One of the ways Europe was meant to be trying to figure this out, particularly when the news and the unacceptable pictures of migrants coming

across the Mediterranean, many of them drowning --

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AMANPOUR: -- people being rescued, Europeans, the leaders tried to say, well, let's have a fair and square sharing of the migrants. That never

went anywhere, did it?

DOYLE: Well, that's a difficult one, because the subject is so toxic in local European policy. So I think we need some growing up. We need to do

some growing up and Europe needs to accept that, you know, after hundreds of years of exporting people abroad to places like the U.S., that maybe

it's time now that our populations are declining and our employers need people, especially in Germany, which has the lowest birth rate in the

world.

So just to remain a competitive economy, we need people. And you need to manage that process, not have an uncontrolled process. It's not

uncontrolled now but it needs to be -- there needs to be some assistance. And you need to give people a fair chance, I think, who are fleeing from

war and fleeing from persecution.

The idea that you don't give a fair chance is just ridiculous. I mean the idea that, to get from Syria, you have to somehow get yourself across the

Mediterranean with a smuggler and get into Italy and what happens then?

So I think it's time for the European Union to face up to it, as their citizens are requesting, and deal with in a fair and judicious way. And

I'm afraid that's not what we've got at the moment.

AMANPOUR: And one of the members of the Liberal Democrats here, obviously in opposition, they have said -- "David Cameron" -- referring to the prime

minister -- "risks dehumanizing some of the world's most desperate people. We are talking about human beings here, not insects."

I repeat that, and you've also talked about not destroying their humanity. But we do live in a political situation where a lot of parties are using

the migrant issue as a populist political issue.

Can you, as the spokesman of the organization that you represent, give us an idea of numbers?

Are there these uncontrollable hordes that are coming in to take over Europe, as we're being told by certain extremist politicians?

DOYLE: Well, in a population as big as Europe's, when you think of it, up to 700 million, depending on how wide you paint the borders, I think

200,000 people -- which is a top amount coming over -- coming across in any regular situation, is a controllable amount, especially if they're shared

out.

And remember, many of these are absolutely deserving and entitled to asylum. But I mean, at the end of the day, people have been migrating for

millennia. And to blame the migrants and accuse them of being somehow criminals is really not fair. People have been -- it's the oldest

adaptation strategy from climate change, from persecution, from human rights abuses.

So if the migrants are to blame in any sense, then we're all to blame because we've all been migrants at one stage in our lives or in our --

looking back in history.

So I think we need to recognize that it's a way that people respond to tragedy, to crises, and let's deal with the core roots of the crises,

whether it's bad governance, whether it's war and pestilence, whether it's climate change.

Let's tackle it there at the root source because, at the end of the day, I'm not sure people -- especially well-educated people, people with a

future ahead of them -- would necessarily like to be camping out seven to a decrepit tent in Calais. I'm sure this is not the future they actually

want.

AMANPOUR: And yet many of them say they are willing to pay any price and take the risk to get over here.

So how do you think this issue is going to be resolved or what's the next step over the next few days?

DOYLE: Well, we've seen it resolved as a result of crises. We saw the ship that went down with some 700 lives aboard back in April. And suddenly you

had a European Union summit and an attempt to deal with it. Now the impetus behind it disappeared because there is an underlying hostility, if

you will, to solving the issue of migration.

But it's not going away. The population of Africa is growing by leaps and bounds. The birth rate, as I mentioned, in Europe is declining and we need

somehow to have a coherent policy that both addresses the root causes, addresses bad governing and at the end of the day allows trained workers to

come and be integrated into our societies.

So I think it takes a high road scenario, to coin a phrase. It takes a bigger politician. It takes a longer-term view. And we're looking for

that.

AMANPOUR: We're looking for it, too. Leonard Doyle, thank you very much indeed, spokesman for the International Organization for Migration.

And after a break, we imagine a world without movement, where life is lived in captivity. The hostages taken by Peru's Shining Path, delivered to

freedom after more than quarter of a century, hidden away. That's next.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, we live in a time that's haunted by stories of abductions and captivity. But imagine a world where captivity is the

only world you've ever known.

This week, the Peruvian army liberated 39 people from a farm, held by the brutal Shining Path rebel group. One of the women said that she had been

there for 30 long years. Twenty-six of the prisoners were just children and many of them were conceived when their mothers were raped and they were

born in captivity.

The conflict with the Shining Path killed up to 70,000 people at its bloody peak and it collapsed when their leader, Guzman, was captured back in 1992.

But the few remnants of the Maoist group have been hiding in Peru's cocaine region with their captives. And after so many years of being enslaved,

several of the hostages found it tough to leave even this cruel existence. They had grown used to it with some of the indoctrinated children fearing

that their rescuers were enemies. But the Peruvian army managed to convince them to flee.

And now they do have a chance to begin life anew.

And that is it for our program tonight. And remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and

Twitter. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

END