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Third Grader Handcuffed in School; Republican Debate Participants?. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired August 04, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:00]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, we continue on here, hour two. You're watching CNN.

We have some breaking news. We are getting reports that shots have been fired at soldiers near Camp Shelby in Mississippi. Specifically, this is near Hattiesburg, Mississippi. An officer tells CNN that shots were fired from civilian vehicles. The troops were off base in this massive training area at the time, we're told, but investigators now looking into who fired those shots.

But the officer tells us that this is not an active shooter situation, again, shots fired at soldiers near Camp Shelby. No one has been hurt, we're told. Again, this is not an active shooter situation -- updates as we get them.

And just a short time from now, Republican presidential hopefuls will officially find out if they make the cut for the very first big debate. CNN has just crunched the poll numbers, and here are the 10 who likely will make it to that stage of the first nationally televised prime-time presidential debate for 2016.

You have Donald Trump. He's a shoo-in, with 23 percent of support among Republican voters. When you look at the numbers and do the math, that's basically twice that of Jeb Bush, his nearest competitor, there at 13 percent, Scott Walker with 11 percent and so on.

Just scraping in the bottom, you have New Jersey Governor Chris Christie and Ohio Governor John Kasich making that top 10.

First, Sara Murray, to you, our CNN political reporter. Let me bring you in and ask you, these are the 10 who we think will make the cut. But who won't make it?

SARA MURRAY, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So the list of people who won't make the cut, man, that's a bummer to be on the top of. And Rick Perry is right there, just barely missing his mark. You also have Bobby Jindal, Carly Fiorina, Lindsey Graham, Rick Santorum, George Pataki, Jim Gilmore, none of them making the debate you can see right there.

And the interesting thing about this mix is these are not no-name candidates, Rick Perry, longest serving governor of Texas, Lindsey Graham, a sitting senator, Rick Santorum, the guy who won Iowa the last time around. So, it's a pretty stunning list of candidates that we won't even see on the stage.

BALDWIN: These are the Republicans. We have talked a lot about the Democrats. But there's been this movement, maybe a draft Biden movement. I know the vice president just recently -- let's be honest. Was he joking about a run? What was he just saying this last hour?

MURRAY: He was asked if he was serious about running, and when he responded to a reporter, he said, only if you will be my running mate. So you can see there he's still trying to deflect questions about this, deal with them in a joking manner. It doesn't seem like he's ready to engage in a substantive way about whether he really wants to take on a run for the presidency.

And they have made it clear, like, look, he's still in the process of making this decision. So I think it's too soon to get an answer from Joe Biden.

BALDWIN: Yes. It seems he is the exception here. He still has a little time. Sara Murray, thank you so much.

MURRAY: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: And now to the political cell phone feud, round one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I wrote the number down. I don't know if it's the write number. Let's try it, 202...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Remember when Donald Trump gained some major political shock points last month, right? When he was standing there, he gave out rival Lindsey Graham's private cell phone number during that news conference?{

Well, round two, Lindsey Graham proved to have quite the sense of humor, hitting back with this video of him burning and chopping and teeing off with his flip phone. Got some laughs, made some points. Now we have round three.

Gawker publishes Trump's cell phone number. How does he respond? Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Hi. This is Donald Trump, and I'm running for the presidency of the United States of America. With your help and support, together, we can make America truly great again. Visit me on Twitter @realDonaldTrump and check out my campaign Web site at www.DonaldTrump.com. Hope to see you on the campaign trail. We're going to do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let me talk about this with our senior media correspondent, Brian Stelter.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: This is so awesome.

BALDWIN: It's pretty fantastic to watch all of this sometimes.

STELTER: What a great way to turn it around.

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: But before we get to that, I know you have some breaking news on this conversation that Rupert Murdoch had with Donald Trump a couple of weeks ago.

STELTER: Yes, there's this real intrigue about Rupert Murdoch and Donald Trump, Murdoch of course one of the most important conservative heavyweights in the country. He owns FOX News. He owns "The Wall Street Journal." He owns "The New York Post."

Some of the outlets have been kind of tough on Trump in the last few weeks. "The Wall Street Journal" said that Trump is a catastrophe, for example, and Murdoch himself said Trump was embarrassing the whole country.

BALDWIN: That was his word, embarrassing.

STELTER: But that was two weeks ago. A lot has changed, apparently.

What I'm about to report on CNN.com is that Murdoch and Trump have gotten on the phone for the first time. They have had their first conversation. And I think this is notable because it's an example of an establishment figure like Murdoch going to somebody who is clearly not part of the establishment, Trump, and maybe mending fences.

[15:05:03]

One source called this a peace-brokering conversation to me. It is true that Murdoch has been softening his tone about Trump. He recently said on Twitter that if Trump comes out unscathed in this debate, it will be a big win and he says everybody now has to pay attention and take Trump seriously.

Sounds to me like things are cooling between the two of them and maybe Murdoch is coming around.

BALDWIN: All right. So we will look ahead to Thursday and see how Trump does with the debate, also this, back to the cell phone. trump just tweeted: "Thank you, Gawker. Call me on my cell phone," as you can see, "917-756-8000, and listen to my campaign message."

Who do you think wins this round? Donald Trump?

STELTER: Absolutely Donald Trump. It's almost like nothing can wound him.

BALDWIN: Yes. STELTER: That's how it looks right now when you look at the polls

with his performance as a front-runner, seeming to gain ground, gain momentum in the most recent polls.

And by taking these lemons and making them into lemonade, every time it seems to happen, I think it's a reminder to the pundits, to the talking heads out there and out here that he's not your normal candidate add and that he is not going to play by normal rules. I think, as we have said before, maybe other candidates can be learning from how Trump does it.

BALDWIN: Take the top 10. We're two hours a way from having that solidified to know definitively who is on that stage Thursday.

STELTER: Right. My guidance I'm getting from FOX News, their representative there this afternoon, is they will not know anything for sure until 5:00. They're all going to meet after 5:00. They're not even sure when they will announce the top 10.

Maybe there's a slight chance there could be a top 11. I'm just putting that out there.

BALDWIN: No way. No way.

STELTER: I don't think it is going to happen, I don't think it is going to happen, but I was guided today they have never actually committed to the exact number. It looks like it will be a top 10. It looks like Perry will be out.

But my point is, we won't know for sure, my point until after 5:00.

BALDWIN: OK. We will wait for it. I'm sure it will be on CNN with the news. Thank you, sir, very much, Brian Stelter.

And like it or not, come Thursday, as we have been discussing for this debate here, when the presidential candidates take to that stage, all eyes will be on Donald Trump. He will be there front and center. But will he be able to keep his lead after the debate or will it be maybe the nail in his political coffin?

Let me bring in Ed Lee, Emory University debate director.

Ed, great to have you on.

ED LEE, EMORY UNIVERSITY: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

BALDWIN: So read your piece on CNN.com. You had a lot of great thoughts. But I have to ask, in these debates, right, when it's so early on, when it's 10, maybe 11, I don't know, when you only have say a minute to respond to a question, what's the strategy, style or substance?

LEE: I think that for most people it's style who are unknown. However, Donald Trump is a known commodity, as you have just reported, that he's up 23 percent, he's almost double digits over the second close competitor. At this point, he's not trying to consolidate it seems his lead with

the Tea Party. He's ultimately trying to bring new people into the party, those who will support him. And I think that for him substance could go a long way to helping him.

BALDWIN: How are you substantive in 60 seconds?

LEE: Well, one of the ways you can do it is you can identify some particular issues that you are concerned about. One of the things that Donald Trump brings to the table that he can tout is that he's a job producer, that the government doesn't produce jobs, that businesses produce jobs, and that he's the best job producer of the 17 people who are running.

And so in 60 seconds, he could hit on the issue of jobs, the economy, and the need for there to be someone outside of government to come in and make it more effective in doing the job that most people want him, want them to do.

BALDWIN: Staying on Trump, and I think you just hit it -- and I have talked to a lot of people -- I think one of the reasons why folks really like him is because he's not this Washington insider, right? People are frustrated with government.

But in your piece, you do reference needing to act presidential and if you're Donald Trump, how do you do that when at the same time you don't want to be of the inside-the-Beltway ilk?

LEE: It's a -- you have identified a very difficult task for him, because the folks he's been communicating with, who he has attracted, are very much excited about the vitriolic and bombastic ways in which he's been communicating.

But there also will be a large collection of people who are starting to tune in for the first time. And for those people, they are interested in someone who will be the nation's first diplomat, someone who can go abroad, someone who they think can represent their issues and interests in a very effective way.

And so I think that he now needs to make a pivot towards trying to communicate with those people in order to make a long-term run for the presidency, that the folks that he's gotten on board now can't sustain his candidacy.

BALDWIN: You know, it's also interesting when you look at we will call it a spectrum of debate. On one end, you have the general, the mega-general election debate where you're one-on-one, and those debates, you have so much time and talk about substance. That's when you really get into the nitty-gritty. Then you have what we're talking about Thursday night, where you're sharing the stage with 10 people.

And I hear you on substance, but you also want to have -- and I think of Lindsey Graham and a zinger with Hillary Clinton last night that clearly he had ready to roll. You want those zingers that we will all be talking about, we, the media, the next day. [15:10:05]

LEE: Well, you're going to talk about Donald Trump the next day.

And the most interesting and newsworthy or noteworthy thing that he could do is to speak to an issue like the economy, to speak to an issue like a large collection of people are interested in and to offer a side or perspective of himself that we have yet to see, that Donald Trump is in a very fortuitous place that many of the other candidates, including Lindsey Graham, would love to be in, that I am talking about Donald Trump, that you can't get enough of talking about Donald Trump, and many in the media, that what he now needs to do is figure out how to communicate with the audience.

The most important thing that a debater needs to do is figure out who their audience is. And for Donald Trump, it's no longer the Tea Party anti-government wing. While that continues to be part of it, it's now figuring out how to build upon that coalition and attract folks who are interested in seeing someone who will represent the nation well. And I think that he can do that. I think he can start to do that.

BALDWIN: All right. All right. Ed Lee, quite a TV event Thursday night. We should postgame on Friday.

LEE: Absolutely.

BALDWIN: Ed Lee, Emory University, thank you so much, sir.

LEE: Thank you for having me. You have a great day.

BALDWIN: You got it. You got it. You too.

Coming up next, the case of a man shot and killed by police after getting in a car crash. He was apparently looking for help, but a homeowner thought he was trying to break in her home. Now that officer is on trial and next you will hear how his lawyer describes that night and says race indeed did not play a factor.

Plus, cops in class, a third grader with ADHD put in handcuffs as a punishment and apparently this wasn't the first time that officer had done that to a child. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:15:56]

BALDWIN: Before Michael Brown, before Eric Garner, even before Tamir Rice, there was the shooting of Jonathan Ferrell, the unarmed African- American man who was killed in September of 2013 by a white officer by the name of Randall Kerrick. Kerrick's trial just began in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Ferrell was a former football player at Florida A&M University. He got into an accident in his car one night. And it was so mangled, this car of his, he had to climb out of the back window. So, after doing so, he went to this nearby neighborhood, knocked on the door of a home for help, where the woman inside thought he was trying to break in. So what did she do? Picked up the phone and called 911.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need help.

911 OPERATOR: Where are you at?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's a guy breaking in my front door.

911 OPERATOR: There's a guy breaking in your front door?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. He's trying to kick it down. My God, please. Oh, my God. I can't believe I opened the door. What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) is wrong with me?

911 OPERATOR: You thought it was your husband.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, he works night. Oh, my God. He has a gun. And I can't find it.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BALDWIN: When officers arrived on the scene, that is when police officer Kerrick shot Ferrell multiple times. Kerrick is now on trial for voluntary manslaughter.

First stop, I have Alina Machado, who has been covering the story ever since it happened there in Charlotte. She joins me with more.

First, do we know how -- what happened to Jonathan Ferrell after officers first arrived an the scene?

ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, we know that three officers responded to the scene after that 911 call was placed and that Jonathan Ferrell approached them. Police have said that one of these officers tried to use a stun gun, but was unsuccessful. Another officer, the officer who's on trial, Randall Kerrick, was the only one to use his gun.

Kerrick fired 12 shots; 10 of those shots hitting Ferrell, killing the 24-year-old. Now, we have known all along that there is dash cam video of the encounter, but it's never been released to the public. We are expecting to see the dash cam video at some point during the trial.

An attorney for Ferrell's family, by the way, who says he has seen the video, he believes ti evidence of murder and that it explains why Kerrick was charged less than 24 hours after the shooting. Kerrick's defense team, meanwhile, paints a totally different picture. They say Ferrell attacked the officer. They believe the shooting was justified.

Here's what the defense said in opening statements about Ferrell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MICHAEL GREENE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He could walk. He could talk. He could advance. And that's going to be supported by the testimony of Officer Neal, who saw him punching, swinging, climbing up officer Kerrick.

Officer Kerrick's DNA is underneath Jonathan Ferrell's fingernails. Ladies and gentlemen, this case is not about race. It never was. This case is about choices, Jonathan Ferrell's bad choices.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACHADO: Now, today is the first full day of testimony. The jury of eight women and four men has seen some of the items that were found inside Ferrell's wrecked car. This trial, Brooke, is expected to last several weeks.

BALDWIN: All right, Alina Machado, thank you very much.

Let's bring in our legal minds. With me now, HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson and CNN legal analyst Sunny Hostin.

Welcome to both of you. I remember this story. I remember we covered it quite thoroughly initially. What I remember about it, Joey Jackson, is that initially it was a nonindictment of that police officer.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That's right.

BALDWIN: But that changed. Remind us why.

JACKSON: Sure. It certainly did. As Alina said, what ended up happening, let's go back to September of...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Yes, 2013.

JACKSON: Exactly. So, two years ago, what happens is, is that there's this incident. He is, as Alina said, charged within 24 hours of this voluntary manslaughter.

The case is presented to a grand jury around January of 2014. The initial grand jury decides not to indict. The case is presented by the district attorney. What the district attorney then does is about week later presents the case to another panel with the argument that there was less than a full complement of grand jurors that are provided by law. You're allowed up to 18 in North Carolina.

[15:20:23]

The defense, of course, tried to block that move. The judge said, this is not double jeopardy, to the extent that it's not a final resolution of a case, as would a trial have been. They re-present, the state does, the case to the grand jury, and lo and behold that second grand jury that heard many more witnesses than the first decided to indict for voluntary manslaughter. BALDWIN: OK. So, there you have it.

JACKSON: That gets us to the trial.

BALDWIN: That gets us to the trial. And hearing some of the opening statements, and Alina mentioned there is dash cam video, has not been released yet. You have one side that says, you watch the dash cam video, absolutely it was a murder. The other side says there was punching, there was DNA found under his nails, that the officer was attacked. How do you argue this?

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Look, I think what's going to be interesting is that this jury will hear two very different versions of events.

The jury will hear from the prosecution that this was an officer who overreact, this is an officer who used excessive force, deadly force. But from the defense, you're going to hear this is an officer that was afraid for his life. I think, bottom line, especially given the climate that we are in, we have been covering these cases, I feel like every day for the past couple of years, I think jurors are very sensitive to these issues, the issues that do generally involve race and policing.

And I don't think that jurors go into the jury room and listen to the facts in a vacuum. I think that they keep their common sense and they determine what makes sense. Does it really make sense for someone who was just in a car accident who is seeking help to attack a police officer who has responded to help?

In my mind's eye, that doesn't really make sense. So I think that's the sort of equations that these jurors will have to grapple with.

BALDWIN: You hear that. But then as we played, the sheer terror, what sounds like terror in that woman's voice, truly believing someone was trying to break into her home, when in actuality that wasn't the case. Then you have the other attorney saying this isn't about race. This was about choices.

JACKSON: That's why it's such a critical point you make.

The question, Brooke, is the state of mind is critical. When you have an officer who is responding to the scene who objectively believes that there's a break-in, not someone that we determine later has crashed a car accidentally who happens to be a former football player.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: He wasn't going into that thinking about a college football player. He's thinking there is an intruder.

JACKSON: Exactly, good guy, nonaggressive. Not thinking about that. There is an intruder. What do I have to do? I'm on a heightened of state alertness.

The defense will argue is that he was, that is the officer, objectively reasonable. He was fearful for his safety, rightly or wrongly. He thought he was under attack, rightly or wrongly. As a result of that, his actions are justified. That's what the argument will be. As to whether the argument carries the day is another matter. We also have to discuss, though, the dash cam, which, of course, will be shown to this jury. I think that will be extremely important.

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: But I think we're not talking about the big elephant in the room, right, which is there's a big black guy who is banging on someone's door. She opens up the door and immediately she believes this is an intruder. And that is a racial issue. That is a racial issue. That is about perceptions. That is about sort of these inherent biases that we carry with us each and every day that people don't want to talk about.

And I hope during this trial that is something that will be talked about.

JACKSON: Sure.

HOSTIN: That is going to be on everyone's mind.

JACKSON: Critical, Sunny. But I think what's also critical is, they're going to say, look, it's 2:30 in the morning. Generally speaking, you don't get your door knocked on at 2:30 in the morning and the guy is kicking because he's in a heightened state of, oh, my God, I crashed my car. Of course it was a mistake, ultimately.

HOSTIN: But perhaps if he looked differently we wouldn't be talking about it today. That is just -- I don't want to make everything about race, but the bottom line is, this is the world that we are living in. This is why we're covering these cases. Black men are typically are treated differently by police officers.

They are perceived differently by people in the community. And it's something that if we don't talk about, that is never going to change. And I'm unafraid to talk about it.

JACKSON: And on the last issue of race, if you look at the jury, the composition, you have two Latin Americans on the jury and you have three African-Americans on the jury. And then the rest of the jurors are white.

(CROSSTALK)

JACKSON: We will see how they interpret the issue of race.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: We will follow it every step of the way. Sunny and Joey, thank you both very much.

HOSTIN: You bet. BALDWIN: Next here on CNN, we have to talk about this child

handcuffed. You have seen the video. Handcuffed above the elbows in the middle of this school, this classroom, by the school resource officer. Now the deputy right there getting sued. We're going to talk to an expert about what should happen in these situations.

Plus, a circus tent collapses, killing a father and his daughter. Coming up, I will talk to a witness who was there when it all happened. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:29:02]

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

An 8-year-old boy in Kentucky, yes, may have been acting out at school. But the ACLU says what a school resource officer did in response to that was absolutely against the law. Know what he did? He put the child in handcuffs. Those handcuffs were not at the child's wrists. They were around his upper arms. And there is video.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't get to swing at me like that. No, you need to behave the way the know you are supposed to, or you suffer the consequences. And it's your decision to behave this way. Sit back down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That little boy was restrained just like that for 15 minutes, according to the ACLU, which is suing that school resource officer, Kevin Sumner, and his boss, the Kenton County sheriff.

Now, this all happened actually in the fall of last year. It happened to this boy and twice to a 9-year-old girl. Both children have ADHD.