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Blue Moon Murder Mystery; Planned Parenthood Controversy. Aired 8- 9:00p ET

Aired August 5, 2015 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Pensacola, Florida. Police discover a grisly scene, a mom and two sons murdered. Bombshell

tonight. We learn the murders were part of a witchcraft satanic ritual killing, the murders allegedly set to coincide with the rare blue moon that

just occurred.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three people are dead, hammered to death.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe the weapon was a claw hammer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And their throats slit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) that it was a ritualistic killing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could the deaths have something with the blue moon?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s witchcraft. I`ll say that right now.


GRACE: And live, Scottsdale, Arizona, the terrifying 911 call of a schoolboy left home alone. The little boy tries to save his own life,

hiding in a closet as two male intruders break into the home, the boy`s terrified voice caught on tape as he makes this desperate 911 call.



911 OPERATOR: They`re trying to get in the house right now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I can hear them through the thing on the door trying to get in. (INAUDIBLE)

911 OPERATOR: Did you open the door? They opened the door and saw you?



GRACE: And Houston, in the last hours, sting video captures a research boss bragging about the sale of tiny fetal human fetus body parts!


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Controversial video...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Talking about extracting intact fetus cadavers and body parts.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t see livers. I see stomachs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Edited undercover video...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Planned Parenthood is actually willing to sell fully intact fetuses.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you agree that $100 would keep you happy?


GRACE: That sick video from YouTube!

Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight, live to Pensacola, Florida. Police discover a grisly scene, a mother and two sons murdered. Tonight, we go behind the

investigation to learn these murders were actually part of a witchcraft satanic ritual killing, the three murders of a mother and two sons

allegedly set to coincide with the rare blue moon that has just occurred.

A blue moon, as most of you know, is when there`s a full moon twice within one calendar month. The moon waxes and wanes, and typically,

there`s one full moon each month. A blue moon is the rare instance when there are two full moons in one month.

Very often, if you look back over satanic killings in the past, you find the positioning of the bodies, you found, for instance, pentagrams,

writings in blood, words written on the walls or the floors. You find the bodies, as I said, positioned, but sometimes holding things such as

candles, pentagrams. There may be writing or painting on the body. Those are the kinds of things you find, along with mutilation of the body or

mutilation of animal bodies.

Virginia Meeks is joining us, a neighbor of the family. Ms. Meeks, thank you for being with us.

VIRGINIA MEEKS, NEIGHBOR OF MURDERED FAMILY (via telephone): You`re welcome.

GRACE: From all I can understand, this was a very quiet family, and this was a total surprise. Is that correct?

MEEKS: Yes, that`s correct. We have a very close community here, and nothing has ever happened in our community. And for this to happen and we

not know it, and it`s right here at my doors, two doors down from me, is just really just frightening.

GRACE: Well, what`s interesting, Ms. Meeks? With me is a neighbor of the murdered family, Ms. Virginia Meeks. It`s not as people look back and

say, Oh, yes, you know what? Police were always called to this home. There was always domestic violence. There was drug dealing. There was

this. There was that.

Nothing at all from this -- actually, this whole neighborhood has a very low crime rate, and particularly, this family very quiet, kept to

themselves. This is a complete surprise.

[20:05:00]What is your reaction when you learned all three of them were found dead?

MEEKS: We were frightened, not just me, my neighbors up the street, all of us were really frightened, and we didn`t know what to do because we

wasn`t told anything. And we just stayed in the house and very -- we didn`t even go out the door much because we were frightened by this

incident. We didn`t know that the...

GRACE: Well, Ms. Meeks, let me ask you this...

MEEKS: ... the throats had been cut. We didn`t know this until the news got it on the television, just like, you know, the rest of the world.

And so we didn`t know whether -- what was going to happen to us. We were frightened because we just didn`t know what type of situation this was.

GRACE: Well, this is what we know. Cooper Davis, news director, News Radio 1620, we know that that may mean that these three victims did not

know their attacker. It`s a mother and two sons. I`m very interested -- Rick Ross joining me, in addition to Cooper Davis and Virginia Meeks. He

is a cult expert and author of "Cults Inside Out: How People Get in and How They Can Get Out."

Rick Ross, what can you tell me about this being linked to the blue moon?

RICK ROSS, CULT EXPERT: Well, actually, Nancy, the blue moon happened apparently a few days after they have -- they have -- the authorities have

stated the murders occurred. And I think that this reminds me of a lot of claims of ritualistic murders that turn out to not actually correlate to a

specific group and an organized in practice.

GRACE: OK, hold on. Back it up! Back it up! Before I get into organized practice and specific groups, I want to talk about this triple

homicide. A mother and two sons have had their throats slit and they were bludgeoned with a claw hammer, OK? The sheriff -- and very rarely do you

see lawmen come out and say, This is connected to a cult killing, a satanic killing, or in this case, a witchcraft killing. You never hear them admit

that. It`s extremely rare.

So my question, backing up to Rick Ross, who is a cult expert -- what about a crime scene would suggest or signal to the sheriffs and police that

this is a witchcraft killing?

ROSS: Well, Nancy, you pegged it when you talked about symbols, artifacts, the positioning of the bodies, a message written in blood,

something more than just they were all killed together near the time of a blue moon.

So what I`m wondering is, what did they find at the crime scene very specifically? Did they find something besides what we have heard? Because

what this may be is the act of a horrible criminal murderer, but not necessarily part of a ritual murder linked to any particular group or


GRACE: Well, I know you keep talking about linked to a group. My concern right now is not whether these particular, I guess witches is what

they should be called. They`re not wiccans. That`s clear. The sheriff specifically said witchcraft.

I`m really not concerned about what group they`re linked to. I`m concerned about, is this a witchcraft killing and who did it and why. So

I`m trying to figure out how they would identify this mother and her two sons, how they would identify this neighborhood. There have been no known

enemies, no problems with this family whatsoever, and the sheriffs are convinced it`s a witchcraft killing.

Let`s take a listen right now to the sheriff`s presser.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s witchcraft. I`ll say that right now. Initial research has led us to believe that there`s a potential that it was

a ritualistic killing -- the method of the murder, blunt force trauma, slit throats, positions of bodies. And then our person of interest has some

ties to a faith and/or religion that is indicative of that.

Those of you that follow any of that will also note that, you know, the time of death we believe on Tuesday also coincides with what`s referred

to as a blue moon, which occurs every three years.




[20:13:51]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A mom and her two children are found brutally murdered in their own home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All three victims were killed by blunt force trauma. Their throats were slit also.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now authorities say it`s possible witchcraft may have been involved.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coincides with what`s referred to as a blue moon.


GRACE: A mother and her two sons, Pensacola, Florida, found on a grisly murder scene, all three dead, their throats slashed, beaten with


With me, Cooper Davis, 1620 there in Pensacola, Virginia Meeks, the family`s neighbor, and right now Rick Ross, cult expert, joining us, cult

expert and author.

You know, Rick Ross, you stated, and I agree with you, that this is eerily reminiscent of the Richard Ramirez "night stalker" murders. In

those murders, he was fascinated with the satanic cult. They were ritualistic murders. And I don`t quite understand the point of satanic or

witchcraft ritualistic killings.

First of all, why does this, this mother and her two sons murdered in their home -- why does it remind you of the "night stalker" killings, the

satanic killings?

[20:05:10]ROSS: Well, because this -- Nancy, this could be the act of someone who they called the person of interest who is involved in some kind

of fringe religious practice, such as witchcraft or satanism, who in their mind, they`re fulfilling that belief system by committing murder.

In that same sense, Richard Ramirez, who acted alone, who was the "night stalker" in the 1980s in Los Angeles, he was obsessed with satanism.

And he felt that satanism was part of what he was fulfilling through the murders that he committed.

GRACE: You know, Rick Ross, let me ask you a question. If you are committing a ritualistic satanic killing, what`s the point? Do you think

you`re getting brownie points with Satan? I mean, why do you kill humans in this manner, the way these three were killed, with clear ties to a

witchcraft killing, according to the local police? What`s the point? What does the perpetrator gain from the ritualistic killing?

ROSS: The point seems to be power. They desire to have power over people. Ramirez was a rapist. He was also an avowed satanist, and

everything was about power, power over the women he raped, power over the many people that he killed.

So for many people, this type of ritualistic crime, in their mind, is an act of power, that they have fulfilled a need to have power over others.

GRACE: I`m also learning, Rick Ross, that when people murder for the motive of ritualistic satanic or witchcraft killings, they commonly believe

that they gain power through those killings.

You also mentioned satanic oaths or images. What do you mean by that?

ROSS: Well, Richard Ramirez would use the pentagram. He would take an oath to Satan. So there are certain symbols that are associated with

witchcraft, with satanism.

If the police found such symbols at the crime scene, and they also saw that each person was murdered in exactly the same way, as if in a ritual --

for example, they were slaughtered, their throats were cut exactly the same way, and then the bodies were arranged in a certain formation, they may

have concluded that it was a ritualistic killing.

But the question is, was this person acting alone, like Richard Ramirez, or do they have evidence that this person is acting in concert

with a group?



[20:22:02]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Multiple blows were struck on each and every victim.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Throats slit, one son even shot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That that was an incapacitating move on the attacker`s part.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sheriff saying the case could be linked to witchcraft.


GRACE: A mother and both sons murdered in their homes, the sheriff saying it is linked to witchcraft. Take a listen to the Escambia County

sheriff right now.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The method of death, we believe, through Dr. Minyard`s (ph) office, was blunt force trauma. We believe the weapon was a

claw hammer. Multiple blows were struck on each and every victim. Their throats were slit, also each and every victim. Richard Thompson also

suffered a gunshot wound entering his right ear and exiting behind the neck. We believe that that was an incapacitating move on the attacker`s


All three victims were killed by blunt force trauma. There was no forced entry into the residence, and nothing was taken from the residence

to indicate this was any type of a robbery. The crime scene was very complex, and took several days to work.

The elements of this case are odd, at best. You know, we have a very reclusive family. Obviously, we`ve canvassed the neighborhood, spoken to

people that have lived there for years and years. Neighbors have related to us that they have never met members of this family, although they`ve

lived there for years.

The family, by the way, was reasonably affluent. Records have already indicated that the family, while not rich by a standard, I would say was

very, very comfortable, you know, long-term savers, you know, good job employment, et cetera. But there was a sizable amount of cash found in the

house inside a safe that was not taken. So we believe that we can safely rule out robbery as the primary motive.


GRACE: So this is a middle-class family that basically saves everything they`ve got. Robbery was not a motive.

Cooper Davis, news director, 1620. There was a safe in the home that was untouched. What do we know from the autopsies?

COOPER DAVIS, NEWS RADIO 1620 (via telephone): Well, at this point, as we`ve mentioned, cause of death declared as blunt force trauma from the

hammer, as you mentioned.

And I think it`s worth -- it`s important to mention that no forced entry. We do have information suggesting a person of interest, that has

spoken with deputies already here, knew this family. And at this point, it would seem they are just trying to get forensics back, which could actually

turn a person of interest into this case into a suspect and perhaps an arrest.


[20:28:58]GRACE: Live, Scottsdale, Arizona, the terrifying 911 call of a schoolboy left home alone. The little boy tries to save his own life,

hiding in a closet as two male intruders break into the family home, the boy`s terrified voice caught on tape as he makes this desperate 911 call.


911 OPERATOR: And you`ve never seen these men before?


911 OPERATOR: Do you see any vehicles out front?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, white pickup truck. Please help! Please don`t hurt me!

911 OPERATOR: Did you open the door? Did they open the door and saw you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Help me! What do I do? What do I do? What do I do? (INAUDIBLE)

911 OPERATOR: OK, did they leave?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my God. I don`t know what to do!


GRACE: This is a 12-year-old little boy who is home alone in this Scottsdale home. It`s 7:30 in the morning. The parents leave for work.

We don`t know why he was left home alone, but he was. And that is when he hears men, two white males breaking into the home.


Listen to this 911 call. The boy hiding in a closet to save his own life, whispering to 911.


CALLER: They`re trying to break down the door right now.

911 DISPATCHER: They`re trying to get in the house right now?

CALLER: Yes, I can hear them. They are banging on the door trying to get in.

911 DISPATCHER: OK. And is it on just your back - from your backyard?


911 DISPATCHER: Ma`am, is it in your backyard?


911 DISPATCHER: OK. Can you see them? Ma`am, can you see them?

CALLER: Yes, I can.

911 DISPATCHER: OK. Do you see any weapons? What are they trying to kick in the door?

CALLER: I don`t know.

911 DISPATCHER: OK, ma`am, I need you to speak. I know it`s hard, but are they trying to kick in the door or just trying to get the door


CALLER: I don`t know.

911 DISPATCHER: Did they .

CALLER: I think they might be inside.

911 DISPATCHER: Where are you at?

CALLER: I`m in the closet.

911 DISPATCHER: Which closet?

CALLER: In the guest room.

911 DISPATCHER: Is that at the front of the house or back of the house?

CALLER: Front.

911 DISPATCHER: OK. Are you by yourself in the house?


911 DISPATCHER: OK, do you have any pets in the home?


911 DISPATCHER: What kind of pets? Do you have dogs?


911 DISPATCHER: And you`ve never seen these men before?


911 DISPATCHER: Do you see the vehicles out front?

CALLER: Yes, white pickup truck. Please help.

911 DISPATCHER: We have officers on the way. You are talking .


GRACE: She`s trying to keep him on the phone. Officers on their way.


CALLER: I don`t know.

911 DISPATCHER: Do you hear them in the house?


911 DISPATCHER: Do you hear them in the house? Where do you hear them? What can you hear them?

CALLER: (whispering)

911 DISPATCHER: OK. Don`t worry. We have officers on the way. Ma`am, does it still sound like they`re in the bedroom with you?



CALLER: They`re in the kitchen right now.

911 DISPATCHER: OK, sounds like they are in the kitchen? But it did sound like two of them?


911 DISPATCHER: Do you have any weapons in the home that they can have access to?

CALLER: I don`t know.

GRACE: The 911 dispatcher thinks it`s a woman, it`s actually a 12- year old little boy.

911 DISPATCHER: Do not hang up, if you have to, just don`t say anything, but leave the line open, all right?

GRACE: Can you imagine this 12-year-old child hiding in a closet as he hears intruders rifling through the house?

911 DISPATCHER: Small truck. You hear them coming? [inaudible].

OK. Hold on one moment. We have officers almost there. Do you still hear them?

GRACE: During this call, he can hear the burglars rifling through the house. This child is completely alone, whispering into the phone, trying

to save his own life.

911 DISPATCHER: OK. What room are you located in, ma`am?

CALLER: I`m in the front room. (INAUDIBLE)

911 DISPATCHER: OK, I understand it is a front room. If the officers are standing on the outside of the house, which room is it?

CALLER: [ inaudible ].

911 DISPATCHER: OK, I`m sorry, I`m having a hard time - The left-hand side?


911 DISPATCHER: Is it the only one on the left side?

CALLER: Yes. [ inaudible ].

911 DISPATCHER: OK. And how old are you?

CALLER: I`m 12.

911 DISPATCHER: OK. Hold on one more minute, OK?


911 DISPATCHER: And you`re home by yourself?


911 DISPATCHER: I`m sorry. What is it? The police are outside.

GRACE: The police are on the way. She`s trying to keep the little boy on the call. The perps are coming toward the door.

911 DISPATCHER: Just stay on the phone with me, OK? And you hear two of them in the room with you?


911 DISPATCHER: OK. Have they noticed any police officers outfront or have they said anything?

CALLER: I don`t know.

911 DISPATCHER: OK. Does your closet door have a lock on it where you can lock yourself in if need be?


911 DISPATCHER: Do you have any older brothers or sisters that .


911 DISPATCHER: Okay, okay. Just making sure.

CALLER: Please don`t hurt me.

911 DISPATCHER: There you hear him saying please don`t hurt me as the perps actually open the closet with the little boy inside. Valerie Parazo,

anchor, KFYI, what happened? Was everybody gone in the neighborhood? Nobody had any idea that at 7:30 in the morning intruders were breaking in

on a little boy?

VALERIE PARASO: That`s exactly what happened. You know, police said that this has been happening frequently, that there have been a lot of

daytime burglaries where robbers will come and they`ll think everyone is gone and they`ll come into the house.

GRACE: Joining me also in addition to Valerie Paraso of KFYI is Officer Kevin Watts with Scottsdale police department. Officer, thank you

so much for being with us. That terrified boy hiding in his closet, trying to save his own life and dialing 911. What time of the day did this


OFFICER KEVIN WATTER: It was just - It was just after 7:30 in the morning, so early Monday morning.

GRACE: They had to be watching the house and see both parents leave to go to work. They had no idea a little boy was there. So there`s a

phenomena of rising burglaries in suburban areas when nobody is home during the day. Everybody leaves to go into the city to go to work, right?

WATTS: We do see that. We have seen a trend not just in our city, but across the metro Phoenix area. Burglars are not expecting -

anticipating and counting on everyone is at work or off at school, and there is not going to be anyone at home. That`s what happened on this day.

GRACE: What about that, Lisa Lockwood? Former police detective, author of "Undercover Angel." What should people do? If you hear someone

or see someone at your door you don`t know, what do you do? This little boy didn`t answer when they came to the door.

LISA LOCKWOOD, FORMER POLICE DETECTIVE: Which was brilliant. The maturity that that young man displayed is incredible. So, there`s

something about what he was taught maybe in school, or in a program or his parents told him if anything was suspicious, call 911. So, yes, daytime

burglaries are an actual epidemic across the nation. Because they want a clean getaway. They don`t want to encounter somebody in that house, they

don`t want an opportunity for somebody to call 911 just as this courageous boy had done.

GRACE: Officer Watts, you say that even if you don`t open the door, you should yell something out so the perps know that you`re there when they

first come to the door because these perps came to the door and when nobody answered, they took that as an OK to enter. Now, let`s take a look at the

two guys. Matt Zarell, what can you tell me about these guys` records? Wow! Look at the one with all the tattoos. That was scary to 12 year old.

ZARELL: Both are in jail on $50,000 bond. They`re facing burglary charges. Both have long rap sheets. Lewallen has a number of DUIs and

drunk charges and Johnson as well has a lot of driving charges, shoplifting, criminal damage. Both are being held at the jail right now.



GRACE: Live Houston in the last hours. Sting video catches a research boss bragging about the sale of tiny human fetal body parts.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we could provide .

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The latest video in a sustained effort to undermine support for Planned Parenthood --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Alter our process. And we`re able to obtain intact fetal cadavers. We can make it part of the budget.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want to see evidence in that of how Planned Parenthood is actually willing to sell fully intact fetuses to buyers of

aborted fetal tissue?


GRACE: That video is from the Center of Medical Progress`s YouTube page. To Jeffrey L. Baney, associate editor of "Houston Forward Times."

So, basically, we`re hearing them bragging about selling baby body parts, fetal body parts, and this is not about the right to abortion. It`s not

about that. It`s about these people haggling over body parts. That`s what this is about, Jeffrey.

JEFFREY L. BANEY, "HOUSTON FORWARD TIMES": Well, I mean, their video -- the operatives posed as members of a fetal procurement company. You see

the director of research discussing how they handle fetal tissue in these issues. They are out to expose Planned Parenthood as they see it to

exploit abortions to obtain and profit selling tissue. Of course, these videos have been edited. So, we have to look at the - you have to look at

the full video to really get a full thing, but this is the fifth video that has come out. The latest has 20 or so explained or unexplained edits, and

they`re edited to show their position, so it`s very interesting to see what comes from it.

GRACE: Let`s take a listen to the sting video.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So if we alter our process and we`re able to obtain intact fetal cadavers, then we can make it part of the budget that

any dissections are this and splitting the specimens into different shipments is this. I mean that`s - it`s all just a matter of line items.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We agreed that $100 would keep you happy?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, let me find out from other affiliates in California, what they are getting.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And if they are getting substantially more, then we can discuss it then.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The money is not the important thing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, no. But it is something to talk about it. I mean it`s one of the first things that you brought up, right? So.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And here`s another thought. We`ve been talking about specimen as per specimen per case or per procured tissue sample.

Which would be so that if we`re able to get a liver thymus pair. You know, maybe that is $75 per specimen. And so, that`s for you, you know, if a

liver thymus pair, and that`s 150 versus if we can get liver thymus, brain hemisphere. That protects us so we`re not paying for what we can`t use. I

think it also --


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe it illustrates things --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s been years since I`ve talked about compensation, so let me just figure out (INAUDIBLE), if that`s ballpark,

and that`s fine. If it`s still low, then we can bump it up.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I said I want a Lamborghini.


GRACE: I said I want a Lamborghini. That video is from the Center of Medical Progress`s YouTube page. And you`re hearing people haggle over

baby fetal body parts, human fetal body parts.


Joining me right now is David Daleiden, the executive director and project lead for Center of Medical Progress. Explain to me how these

videos were taken and what`s the context of haggling over how much you`re going to pay for baby body parts?

DAVID DALEIDEN: Sure. So, things - and see, these videos were taken during a two and a half year long comprehensive in depth long-term

investigator journalism study of how Planned Parenthood sells the body parts from the babies that they abort. And that`s something that Planned

Parenthood has been doing for decades now, and nobody has really been aware of it, Planned Parenthood tried to keep it very, very secret and very deep

down in their operations so no one would find out about it.

GRACE: How do you take the video of this? How does the video get taken?

DALEIDEN: We trained investigators to use police quality undercover equipment in order to obtain that video.

GRACE: So, what do you mean by undercover video? Like something in a writing pen or a hat or spectacles? Because no way would these people be

talking about selling human fetal body parts and say they want to buy a Lamborghini if they knew they were on video.

DALEIDEN: Right, you know. I can`t - I can`t talk about the specifics of the custom - but that I can say it was police call under

cover, the same kind that`s used by law enforcement all around the country.

GRACE: But Andell Brown, defense attorney out of Miami, Is there any legal cause of action or prosecution here?

ANDELL BROWN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right now, there is none. The state of Indiana also investigated Planned Parenthood for these very same

allegations based on these videos and they found no wrongdoing. There are plenty of law enforcement`s agencies that will investigate if the law is

broken. The fact that we don`t have one investigation being sustained tells us something.

GRACE: OK, it does tell me something, but I don`t know exactly what. Andell Brown joining me out of Miami. Back to psychologist Caryn Stark.

You said something that really interested me. You said that people getting abortions should know that the body parts of the babies, the fetuses, are

being sold and farmed out like this. That`s going to bring in a whole lot of moral arguments about is abortion right or wrong, because of rape or

incest, but regardless of why a woman is choosing an abortion, what did you mean by this disclosure theory you`ve got?

CARYN STARK: Well, it seems to me that when you go to a hospital or something is happening and they asked you, would you be willing to donate

body parts, and this doesn`t seem any different. After all, it`s your fetus. And whatever you think about it, whether it bothers you or doesn`t,

it`s still your choice, just like it`s your choice to have the abortion whether, in fact, you want that to happen.

GRACE: You know, I just wonder, Caryn Stark, women that choose an abortion are already going through a lot of -- not all of them, but some of

them are going through a lot of anguish making that decision and then to hear this or to find out about this? It`s amazing to me that abortions are

performed and the women don`t know the body parts are going to be basically auctioned off.

STARK: Nancy, I am also amazed. It doesn`t make a lot of sense to me that someone doesn`t have the right to make a decision about that.



GRACE: A sting catches research bosses on tape haggling over how much they`re going to sell human baby fetus body parts. To Kenneth Goodman, Dr.

Kenneth Goodman, director of the University of Miami, Miller School of Medicine Institute for Bioethics and Health Policy. I think that many,

many people support stem research, as do I. But hearing these people haggle over human body parts, is very disturbing, doctor.

DR. KENNETH GOODMAN, UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI: Well, in fact, if that`s what they`re doing. There`s several issues here. We should tease them out

carefully. One is, any scientist will tell you this, the plural of anecdote is not data. We saw recently a recording during a colonoscopy of

physicians disparaging their patient. That`s not a good reason not to get a colonoscopy. I don`t know about these videos. Obviously, the people who

made them had an agenda. They can cite (inaudible) intelligence law they want, but anyone who`s been a journalist for the last century, knows

there`s a great debate about deceiving people as part of an interview.


GRACE: Wait, Dr. Goodman, I was trying to find out about using fetal tissue for stem cell research. However they got this video, I`m not

concerned if they used a pair of spectacles or a riding pan or a hat that says "kiss my bass." What I`m worried about is what`s going on. Unleash

the lawyers, Andell Brown, Jeff Gold. Andell Brown, what`s your defense to these people?

BROWN: Well, Nancy, we have to look at what the law says. What is legal? Title 42 of the United States Code deals with this issue head on.

And what it says is when you`re collecting fetal tissue, you`re allowed to receive the reasonable compensation for the shipping and handling of those

parts, and it`s not like it`s being sold on the market to whoever`s going to pay the highest cost. It goes to research institutes, and it goes to

academic institutions.

GRACE: Really? Don`t get me wrong, Jeff Gold. I support stem cell research, I want that.


But what I`m hearing doesn`t sound like anything the Constitution planned, where they`re saying, will $100 will make you happy? I want to buy

a Lamborghini. I have got others where they`re talking about, hey, we can do an abortion, and we can get the baby out intact. So we can sell more

body parts, all right? That doesn`t feel right to me.

GOLD: I understand that. But making sausage isn`t pretty either. The bottom line is, the stem cell research --


GRACE: I`m going to erase from my mind --

GOLD: -- will benefit you, those people with an agenda, and me.

GRACE: I`m going to pretend I didn`t hear you refer to baby body parts as making sausage. I`m going to pretend I did not hear that. Dr.

Dupre, listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you looking at 8 and 9 week specimens? Or only second trimester specimen?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 10 to 12 week, end of the first trimester. If those are pretty intact specimens, then that`s something we can work with.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s an interesting concept. Let me explain to you a little bit of a problem. Which may not be a big problem. If our

usual technique is suction, at 10 to 12 weeks, and we switch to using an IPAS or something with less suction, in order to increase the odds that it

will come out intact --


GRACE: Dr. Dupre, what she`s trying to say is, there`s ways to abort a baby where we can save more of their body parts so we can sell them,


DUPRE: That`s right.

GRACE: Caryn Stark, psychologist, for all of us that agree with stem cell research to help people with MS and other debilitating illnesses, I

don`t think this is what people envision.

STARK: It depends, Nancy, I think it`s really hard to pay attention to this because it`s been spliced and diced so many times you don`t know

what was really going on.

Also I think the important issue here is whether the people who are getting the abortions are being told and agree that that`s something they

want to do, like donating body parts.

GRACE: So Jeff Gold, do you agree with Andell Brown there`s no legal cause of action here? I know you guys don`t think it`s criminal what`s

happening, but what about all the women that terminated their pregnancies, they had abortions, let`s not put the perfume on the pig, and now they find

out that haggling was going on over the baby`s body parts?

GOLD: Well, they did have to consent. Everywhere, this is something that the woman herself --

GRACE: You consent to harvesting the organs?

GOLD: Well, she has to consent to these -- just like you would for the donation of organs or anything else, she has to know about it, and

consent in some way. Obviously no one consents to the selling, selling is illegal. But this use for costs still has to be agreed to.

GRACE: You see nothing wrong criminally?

GOLD: If the women consented. If they waived it, consented, then no.

GRACE: And if they did not waive it, do you believe it could be criminal or civil?

GOLD: Yes. It`s civil at least, and --

GRACE: I know it`s civil.

GOLD: Criminal will require them to be selling. If they can get over that burden and say we`re selling rather than just getting costs,

reimbursement, then it may be criminal. But otherwise, civil, if there was no consent.

GRACE: To David Daleiden, let me ask you this, I know you trained these people to video the researchers talking. But are you trying to stop

the right to abortion? The right to choice. What is your point? I don`t like what I`m hearing, okay? I want to understand what you`re trying to do.

DALEIDEN: The purpose of this two and a half year long investigation, Nancy, was to document and illustrate really clearly for the American

people exactly how Planned Parenthood harvests and sells aborted baby parts. And how they do that in violation of multiple state and federal

laws. That`s something that I think Americans like yourself are not pleased about. I think most people are shocked and disgusted by it, and

they don`t want their tax dollars going to fund something like that.

GRACE: You know what, David Daleiden, I`m glad I`ve heard what I heard. Now we have to figure out what to do about it.

Right now let`s stop and remember American heroes, South Carolina police officer, Delton Dale Daniels, 22, killed in the line of duty.

Served Marlboro County sheriff just one week, and a volunteer firefighter, loved the outdoors, parents Carl and Bridgette, brothers Joshua and

Brandon, sister Dorothy. Delton Dale Daniels, American hero.

Thank you to my guests, but most of all, thank you to you for being with us and inviting all of us into your homes. I`m Nancy Grace signing

off for tonight. I hope to see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.