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Donald Trump Dominating GOP Field; Organizers of RedState.com Disinvite Trump To Atlanta Event; Remembering Michael Brown; Politics and Race, One Year After Ferguson; Teachers: Low Pay, High Expectations. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired August 08, 2015 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:25] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow. You're in CNN NEWSROOM.

And we begin this hour with the latest from the campaign trail. Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump firing back after being disinvited from today's RedState gathering of conservative activists in Atlanta. The controversy began with a comment Trump made last night to our very own Don Lemon about FOX moderator Megyn Kelly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: She came out there reading her little script and trying to, you know, be tough and be sharp, and when you meet her you realize she's not very tough and she's not very sharp. She's zippo.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST, CNN TONIGHT: She did push you. Pushed a lot of people. But what is it with you and Megyn Kelly?

TRUMP: Well, I just don't respect her as a journalist. I have no respect for her. I don't think she's very good. I think she's highly overrated. But when I came out there, you know, what am I doing? I'm not getting paid for this. I go out there and, you know, they start saying lift up your arm and you know, I didn't know there would be 24 million people. I figured, if I knew it was going to be a big crowd, because I get big crowds, I get big ratings, they call me the ratings machine. So I have, you know, she gets out and she starts asking me all sorts of ridiculous questions. And you know, you could see there was blood coming out of her eyes, blood coming out of her wherever. But she was in my opinion, she was off-base. And by the way, not in my opinion, in the opinion of hundreds of thousands of people. The great Mike Wallace was a friend of mine. In fact, he interviewed me on "60 Minutes." It was a phenomenal "60 Minutes." But he was a friend of mine. He was a tough (INAUDIBLE) and he was great. And the Sun is only a tiny fraction of Mike, believe me. There is a big difference between Mike Wallace and Chris Wallace because I watched him last night. You know, blood pouring out of his eyes, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Joining me from the RedState gathering in Atlanta, Mark Preston, executive editor of CNN politics. Mark, we will get to all that in a moment. But a big shakeup just in the last few hours within the Trump camp.

MARK PRESTON, EXECUTIVE EDITOR, CNN POLITICS: Yes. We have just learned from our Dana Bash that Roger Stone, one of Trump's senior advisors, a long-time friend, has been fired. At least that is what the Trump campaign is telling Dana Bash. They said that Roger Stone was using the campaign for his own personal publicity.

Now, Stone has fired back himself. He said that that is wrong, that's incorrect. In fact, he had resigned last night and he said the reason he did so is because all this current controversy has taken Donald Trump off of his core message. So, as Donald Trump is dealing with the fallout from what has happened here at RedState, he's also having to deal with some internal campaign turmoil - Poppy.

HARLOW: And joining me on set here at 6:00 Eastern Time will be Roger Stone for his first interview since leaving the Trump camp. So you want to stay with us for that. Of course, Donald Trump, if you're watching, you are welcome to join us as well for that discussion.

Mark, I want to ask you, though, about the reaction to Trump not being where you are. A lot of people were looking forward to him being there, wanted to talk to him, and others, a lot of supporters of Trump are very upset that late last night, Erick Erickson said you're not welcome here anymore.

PRESTON: Right. And there is no doubt about that, Poppy. That there were people certainly that were upset about that. In fact, there was one woman that we spoke to here who had driven all the way down from Indianapolis who was very upset about that as well. Let's hear what she has to say.

HARLOW: All right, Mark. I apologize. We don't have that sound. If you could just paraphrase for us what she did say.

PRESTON: Sure. Sure. So, it's such a fast-moving story today. What we learned from her is that she was very upset that Trump wasn't invited. She said that in fact, Trump's words were misinterpreted. They have been misconstrued, Poppy. And the fact of the matter is she said she's not a Trump supporter but Trump is talking about issues that matter and putting issues on the front table. And she said that Donald Trump should have been here today to speak to RedState -- Poppy.

HARLOW: One of the interesting things there is sort of the difference in reaction from some of the other GOP contenders, right? You have Jeb Bush on stage there saying Trump should apologize, period, for that comment about Megyn Kelly last night to Don Lemon. And you have Ted Cruz asked repeatedly today what he makes of it and he refuses to criticize Donald Trump.

[16:05:08] PRESTON: Yes. We have seen this from Ted Cruz certainly over the past few months. Ted Cruz has been very careful about his criticism of Donald Trump. When John McCain -- when Donald Trump was critical of John McCain in Iowa a few weeks ago, said John McCain was not a war hero because he was a POW, Ted Cruz was very careful in his criticism of Trump. Now, some would say that Ted Cruz is trying to appease the Trump

supporters and perhaps if Trump were to drop out of the race, then Ted Cruz would perhaps get some of that support for his candidacy.

HARLOW: Mark Preston reporting for us, thank you very much. Bring us the latest developments as they happen. Things are moving very quickly there today.

We want to talk more about this and Donald Trump taking to twitter, trying to clarify what he meant in his comments in that interview with don lemon last night about Megyn Kelly.

Joining me to talk about it, Morehouse college professor, CN political commentator Marc Lamont Hill and radio host and CNN political commentator, Ben Ferguson.

Marc, let me begin with you and your tweet. You tweeted this. There is a difference between political correctness and basic decency.

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I don't want to police what people say. I don't want to police people's speech. But sometimes now, the language of political correctness allows us to say hey, I didn't do anything wrong. People are just being P.C. I wasn't being offensive. I was just telling the truth.

Donald Trump takes it a step beyond truth-telling and begins to assault people, when he compares people to animals, when he says he wants to see people like Rosie O'Donnell on their knees. And when he talks about Megyn Kelly bleeding. And even if we took the most generous interpretation possible which is that he meant she was bleeding from her eyes and nose, which I don't believe that at all. But even if we believe that interpretation, he's still trying to minimize her as a journalist. They will try to attack her as opposed to dealing with core issues.

HARLOW: Ben, I had Jeffrey Lord on last hour who is a Trump supporter. He worked in the Reagan White House and he said come on, now, journalists can take it. You know, Megyn Kelly is not asking for an apology so why is anyone else. He said that we can't and shouldn't interpret what Donald Trump meant when he said she was bleeding from wherever. Do you agree with him?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, Donald Trump, it was blatantly obvious he was making a remark, a sexist remark based on her being a woman or hormonal or whatever you want to call it. And when you do something like this, it's real simple. You apologize.

But this is what I have been warning other conservatives about from day one with Donald Trump jumping into this. He doesn't know what he's going to say. He doesn't know how to control himself. This is a narcissistic individual that will say anything to insult someone if he is challenged. And that is not a type of person that you want to be in charge of our military, in charge of education, in charge of finance, in charge of the United States of America, because if you disagree with Donald Trump, look at his campaign manager who is coming on your show in about an hour. If you disagree with Donald Trump one time, he will fire you. That is the worst type of leadership that you can possibly have.

And Donald Trump is not only a sexist and narcissist, but he also is out of control and that is exactly why I have been saying from the very beginning Donald Trump may be entertaining, he may be loud but he is not someone I would trust with the United States of America in any capacity.

HARLOW: Here's a key question, Marc. And that is whether or not voters see him as one and one if you will or really part and party of the Republican Party. I had a guest on last hour there, the Republican strategist who said not worried because no one sees him as part of our party, this party. Do you agree with that, Marc? Is he being seen as totally separate?

HILL: No. I don't think he's being seen as totally separate at all. I think voters are smart, Democratic and Republican voters are smart enough to know that the Republican Party offers more than Donald Trump. If we saw anything on Thursday night, it was that there are a range of types of Republicans that you can be. And I happen to disagree with all of them, but there are different ways to be conservative, different ways to be a member of the GOP.

So I don't think Trump is seen as the whole thing. But when Trump makes comments about immigrants, about Megyn Kelly, about all sorts of people, and you see people like Ted Cruz not respond with critique, you see other people take a hands-off approach because they are being strategically self-interested, when you see that it makes people say that hey, everyone in the Republican Party may not be racist or sexist, but a whole bunch of them don't mind those comments to be made. That makes voters uncomfortable.

It won't stop Republicans from coming out to the polls but what it may do is stop voters who are on the fence from voting Republican in the general election. It may stop certain voters who are unmotivated to come out. And lastly, there are people who are looking for an alternative to Hillary Clinton. There are plenty of folks who don't like or trust the Clintons. But if the alternative is a party that seems to be unwilling to speak out against injustice, they will go with Hillary Clinton.

HARLOW: Thirty seconds, Ben.

[16:10:01] FERGUSON: Let me say this. Look, Donald Trump is not the Republican Party. And if you want proof of it, look at the very first question from the debate. And he was the only person that said I may not be a Republican in 60 days or 90 days or 120 days.

And I also, this is what I have been saying to other conservatives since, again, the very beginning. Donald Trump is an opportunist who saw a bigger opportunity as a Republican at the moment than he did as a Democrat at the moment. But Donald Trump has no problem being a Democrat if it's convenient. The same way he has no problem as he discussed the other night basically bribing people to get what he wants at that moment. He will give money to any Democrat or any Republican if that moment in time serves his interest best. That is a very scary individual. HARLOW: Marc, Ben, thank you. Stay with me. Lot more to talk about

ahead.

Again, tomorrow morning, Donald Trump will be a guest on CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION with Jake Tapper" 9:00 a.m. eastern only right here on CNN. You will not want to miss that.

Well, we saw his back and forth with Megyn Kelly. And you know, lot of folks in the GOP are saying this is the last thing that we need as Democrats, some try to paint them as a party bad for women. The party trying to win the women's vote in 2016. Can they afford Trump as a nominee?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:14:34] HARLOW: Donald Trump's remarks about FOX News host and debate moderator Megyn Kelly has set the political world on fire.

This morning's organizers of the RedState gathering in Atlanta yanked their invitation to Trump to the event who was set to speak there later tonight. He is now criticizing the RedState leader Erick Erickson for being a quote, "total loser."

Let's talk about Trump, the Republican and the critical women's vote. CNN commentators Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill are back.

Gentlemen, to you both, even before today, polls have showed that Trump struggles to attract women voters, nationally in some of the key early voting states, 37 percent of Republican women say they would not vote for him.

Ben to you, a majority of women have voted Democrat in the general election since 1992. So, it's been since 1988 that you have seen the Republican nominee win the women's vote. Can they afford having Trump saying things on stage in the debate like he did and with don lemon last night, or do people see him as not so tied to the party?

[16:15:37] FERGUSON: I think people who look at Donald Trump as actually the brand Donald Trump, not as a Republican, because let's be honest, he hasn't been a Republican for very long. And I think people will look at him specifically as he starts to implode. And we are seeing that right now.

They are going to look at him and judge him for who he is because remember, he also is playing this victim card of the media's against me. Megyn Kelly's against me. Everybody that doesn't like me is against me and if they don't like me, I'm going to call them incompetent or stupid or a moron or idiot or really dumb or a bimbo or whatever he wants to say.

So I really am not concerned about it branding the Republican Party because all the other Republicans on stage, none of them like Donald Trump either. And it's pretty clear they're just trying to figure out how to deal with him. And I think, you know, look, he's imploding as we watch this. And I think he thinks you know what, I don't care if I insult women, I don't care if I insult Hispanics, I don't care if I insult immigrants. He obviously doesn't care who he insults and at some point you run out of people that are going to like you.

HARLOW: Marc to you, Gloria Borger wrote a fascinating column on CNN.com about this this week, and she wrote this in part. She wrote quote "it is not that it's a premeditated war on women as the Democratic Party apparatus likes to dub it. But it's more of a head scratching did you just say that process of flubs that slowly seeps into the ether." Big picture, what does this do to the race?

HILL: Well, it does a few things. One, I would resist that critique, by the way. I think that the notion of the war on women is as much about what people say as it is what people do in terms of public policy around reproductive rights and equal pay at work. There are a range of issues that help us prosecute a war on women. And that's on the left and the right. I think none of us do a good enough job with women in terms of equal rights and justice.

But with regards to the race, when Donald Trump makes these comments, the rest of the party has to respond. Some people are above the fray. The Scott Walkers and certainly Jeb Bushes of the world don't want to deal with Trump at all because they want to look presidential. The people who are on the fringes, the Huckabees and Rand Pauls, to some extent and certainly, the Ted Cruzes of the world don't want to critique Trump because they figure Trump will flame out and they want his base.

And so, what ultimately happens is you have a bunch of people who for strategic self-interested reasons aren't going to criticize Donald Trump which means that female voters are looking at this saying hey, wait a minute, there's not enough people rebuking Trump. It make me uncomfortable.

FERGUSON: I disagree. I think they don't want to be brought into the Jerry Springer show of Donald Trump. Why would you want to get into a twitter war with Donald Trump and get into, you know, the pigs' tie (ph) with him on these issues?

I also think that there's another part of this which is really important as this plays out. You don't want to make Donald Trump absolutely hate you in case you get the nomination, because Donald Trump is narcissistic enough that he may say you know what, I'm not going to win the presidency but I'm going to make sure you sure don't either because I hate you. And so, I will run as a third party candidate. There is part of that being brought into this as well.

HILL: Wow, Ben.

HARLOW: So, maybe that's why --

HILL: What a profile of courage.

HARLOW: -- we're not seeing Ted Cruz criticizing him.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Ben, I want to get your reaction to this. South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley said something interesting this week. And this is someone who has been looked at increasingly by people as a potential running mate in the Republican Party. She said people in elected office need to listen. Let's roll it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. NIKKI HALEY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: So, standing in somebody else's shoes on any policy situation and talking to them not as if you're lecturing them on what should happen, but talking to them as if you hear them and understand, that makes the difference. We all need to listen more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Ben, to you first, then Marc. She says don't lecture, put yourself in others' shoes, listen. We as a party need to do that. What's your reaction to her?

FERGUSON: I agree with her on what she's saying there. Certainly she was listening when they took the flag down in her state, the confederate flag. And I think she obviously is certainly looking at that from a perspective of OK, we really do need to listen to people when they're outraged.

But I also think one of the reasons why Trump has connected is he is speaking for many people that feel like Washington has not been listening to them or fighting for them. So you got to find a balance. You can't just be Dr. Phil, always nodding your head and then all of a sudden, just recapping what others say. You have to have a leadership role and be bold and show a plan and be courageous in that way.

And at the same time, you do have to be able to listen but look like a strong leader. It's a tough line to follow but being the president, you've got to lead.

[16:20:15] HARLOW: Marc, final thought on that? Is anyone doing that well in the party?

HILL: In the Republican Party, there are people, yes. I think Rand Paul is listening to certain pockets. I think that Chris Christie has listened to certain pockets. I think everyone actually on the Republican side has listened to certain pockets. The key is not just listen to the people who are your natural base, but to go beyond that. I think Hillary Clinton has actually modeled it well, as much as being criticized for not talking enough, she's doing the most radical thing possible, deep engaged listening around the country to people. And I'm not a Clinton person. But she's going around the country listening to voters. And I think that's a powerful thing.

FERGUSON: She doesn't take many questions. I'll tell you that much. I don't know if that's listening.

HILL: She's too busy listening, Ben.

HARLOW: Stay with me. You guys can fight about it in the commercial break. Stay with me. More with marc and ben ahead. I'm switching gears here, though, because tomorrow marks one year

since the fatal shooting of Michael Brown. It set off all those protests in Ferguson, Missouri and launched a movement nationwide. Next, hear from the new police chief of Ferguson about the challenges ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:25:02] HARLOW: Tomorrow marks one year since the shooting death of 18-year-old Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hand up!

CROWD: Don't shoot!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hands up!

CROWD: Don't shoot!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: There you see Michael Brown Senior, his father, leading the march of about 200 people to the spot where his son died after that altercation with police officer Darren Wilson. Despite the passage of time and some key leadership changes, the city of Ferguson still has a long way to go.

CNN's Sara Sidner spoke with the new chief of police.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHIEF ANDRE ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: FERGUSON, MISSOURI POLICE DEPARTMENT: I just hope we have peace. We don't need this. No one needs this. It's not just the police officers I'm concerned b I'm concerned about everyone.

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the man leading perhaps the most scrutinized police department in America right now, the Ferguson, Missouri police department. The city where an explosion of anger against police tactics erupted a year ago when Officer Darren Wilson killed unarmed teenager Michael Brown after the two scuffled at the police vehicle.

When you were looking from afar at what was happening here in Ferguson one year ago, what was your take on all that was going on here in Ferguson?

ANDERSON: It bothered me. It really did.

SIDNER: What was it that bothered you? What disturbed you?

ANDERSON: To see that divide that was evident in this community. That's what bothered me. It just didn't feel like we should be this way in America. But I understand that there are differences and I wanted to be part of making a change.

SIDNER: That change coming in big part after the streets of Ferguson looked more like a war zone than small city America.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look out!

SIDNER: Protesters took to the streets for more than 100 days straight with sometimes violent outbursts. Their persistence influencing the department of justice to investigate. The investigation cleared Officer Darren Wilson in the shooting but issued a damning report on the department as a whole, saying it helped create the racial tensions by unfairly targeting, searching and ticketing black people to help fill the city's coffers.

What happens if your bosses, the city manager, comes to you and says we need you to generate more money, we need you to ticket more people. What do you say?

ANDERSON: I won't do that.

SIDNER: You will just say no?

ANDERSON: I will. And they won't do that, either. I've had conversations about the new leadership. And I didn't sign up as a police officer to go out and write tickets to generate funds. That is not our job.

SIDNER: This year a new law has been passed to stop Missouri cities from using their police Departments as ATMs, lowering what they can make on traffic fines. For Ferguson that means a reduction from a maximum of 30 percent to 12.5 percent of its operating revenue.

The new chief says his officers are eager to move forward. Black officers have been hired though still make up only 10 percent of the force. While the community they serve is 67 percent black.

Does Ferguson have racist view? Is there a problem within the department?

ANDERSON: I think that in the department there are individuals that don't understand the community but in fact, there have been some issues with respect to having race problems. There has been. And I think that the police department is doing a good job, has done a good job at getting rid of people that have caused those types of problems.

SIDNER: While the chief and city leaders insist that change is happening in Ferguson for the better, there are some residents here still skeptical. There is a divide along racial and sometimes generational lines about whether the change that's happening here will be long-lasting and real for the people who live and work here. Some saying that all these big titles have interim before them and they will wait and see if the change really makes a difference.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [16:32:24] HARLOW: Tomorrow marks the one year anniversary of the death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri. He was the 18-year-old shot and killed by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson.

Confrontation between Brown who was African-American and Wilson, who is white, sparked days, weeks, months of protests on the streets of Ferguson and around this nation. The Justice Department later cleared Wilson of any wrongdoing, also a grand jury doing the same, but faulted the department, the police department there in Ferguson, for a pattern of discrimination.

Let's talk about race in America one year after the first protest in Ferguson with CNN commentators Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill.

Guys, a very fascinating Pew study that just came out and part of the key findings here, half the country, 50 percent, now consider racism a big problem. That is up from 33 percent who thought so in 2010. That includes nearly three-quarters of African-Americans, 58 percent of Hispanics and 44 percent of whites.

There is also a big jump in Republicans who hold this view, 41 percent of Republicans now saying they consider racism a big problem. Five years ago, 17 percent of Republicans felt that way.

So, Marc, to you first. One year after Michael Brown was shot and killed and the ensuing protests across this country, what do you make of these numbers?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I'm excited by them. I'm encouraged by them. There's nothing good about living in a country where people deny the existence of race and racism.

Some people see this as a sad turn. I see it as a positive turn. Racism as has always existed. It didn't start last year. We simply paid more attention to it.

And with all the spotlight placed on state violence against people, we see more -- we see more incidents of racism, with all the conversation with celebrities who slip out and say racist things, from the Paula Deens to the Hulk Hogans of the world. People say hey, wait a minute, in their private homes sometimes they say things we don't expect in public.

There have been a stream of factors that have made people say race and racism matters. If Republicans see it, Democrats see it, blacks see it, and whites see it, then we have a chance of actually repairing the damage that has been done and actually dismantling white supremacy.

HARLOW: Ben, what do you think and make of the shift in opinion?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I think some of it is positive. I think people are seeing that there are things we can do to be more transparent, especially the police. I think one of the great things that's come out of all this is the fact there seems to be a lot of individuals on both sides of the political spectrum that are very much in favor of body cameras for police officers, not just dashboard cameras. I think that would help things.

I also think you're seeing citizens that are taking it upon themselves to take their phones and use them for good to tell the story of what's happening in front of them and in their communities.

[16:35:00] I think that's a positive.

But I also think there are some cautionary tales here, which is we still have to learn that not everything sometimes is what we want it to be to push our viewpoint. Darren Wilson, the police officer, is a great example of that. He was not indicted even after there was an investigation. He was not in the wrong even though people were saying hands up, don't shoot.

So, we need to be careful before we jump on narratives that in fact were not reality that actually make things very bad for a lot of people in that community and a lot of people were up there saying "hands up, don't shoot", saying he was a murderer, they didn't live in that community, didn't have to deal with the backlash of that community. They didn't have to deal with the destruction of that community.

So, I think that's also part of what we learn. Sometimes we have to be careful before we jump to convict police officers that sometimes are just doing their job.

HARLOW: Marc, does Ben have a point?

HILL: No. First of all, I don't think that anyone was jumping to convict Darren Wilson. They were jumping to get him investigated, to get him charged and to get him into a trial, which is something we rarely see. Not as if there's this whole string of police officers who are convicted or misconvicted for killing people. Police officers rarely get even convicted or charged, rather, much less convicted for the killing of people and even less often for the killing of black people.

And even if I were to concede that Darren Wilson did nothing wrong and I don't believe that he did nothing wrong, in the Justice report if you read it carefully, it doesn't say that either. If I were to concede that point, Ferguson was a racist town before Darren Wilson met Michael Brown in Canfield.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: That doesn't mean he's a racist. That's the point I'm making.

HILL: I don't know what's in Darren Wilson's head. I know when I look at that "New Yorker" piece that came out a week ago from his own mouth, I hear things that are quite racist.

So, I'm not willing to say Darren Wilson is racist or not racist. That isn't my point. My point is that we shouldn't reduce racism to individual actors. I don't care whether an individual person is racist as much as I care about the power that they were unable to wield over people and the power that systems are able to unwield over people.

Ferguson is a racist town. Ferguson has a racist justice system. That's why we are headed there tomorrow. I will be there tomorrow to protest that, to talk about that, because that's the issue. Not an individual Darren Wilson or tragic death of a Michael Brown.

HARLOW: A lot more people talking about it either way you look at it, clearly reflected in those Pew study numbers.

Ben, Marc, thank you. Stay with me. We will have a lightning round with you guys on politics. This really extraordinary GOP primary race, will join us straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:41:02] HARLOW: Time for a lightning round of politics. We're going to sound off on everything we will be talking about between now and September 16th or at least we will try to get to everything when these candidates take the stage for another CNN GOP primary debate. Mark the calendar, September 16th right here on CNN.

Ben Ferguson, Marc Lamont Hill back with me.

No more than 30 seconds, gentlemen, each for your answers.

Ben, to you first -- who needs to give up and get out of this race?

FERGUSON: Donald Trump. I would love for him to end it today, tomorrow, the next day, because it has become a joke. Although now I'm not going to lie, I'm kind of enjoying watching him implode. It's going to be a very fun explosion to watch happen.

HARLOW: Marc?

HILL: George Pataki. Know why? Because half the audience right now is saying who's George Pataki? There's no reason for him to be in the race.

HARLOW: Actually he was the first one to call out Donald Trump.

HILL: Of course he was, because he has nothing to lose. The problem is there are a bunch of candidates in the Republican field who are vying for spots not only on the ticket but for TV shows. They're vying for book tours. They're vying for opportunities to raise their speaking fees with bases. For me that undermines the spirit of this.

Look, everybody has a right to be in the race but if I'm somebody like Pataki, I bail out now and go back to whatever I was doing.

(BUZZER)

HARLOW: There you go, there you go.

Ben, who did the most on Thursday in the GOP debate to improve their chances? Who was the shining light?

FERGUSON: I'll give you two, Marco Rubio and Chris Christie.

I think Chris Christie has somehow become an underdog. I think a lot of people that like Donald Trump and his bluntness are really going to take to Chris Christie.

I also think Marco Rubio was a little bit underrated. People thought he was kind of not going to be able to handle being in the shadow of Jeb Bush. I think now it's the other way around. I think Jeb Bush is worried about Marco Rubio. I think he did an excellent job during the debate. I think he is showing that this guy's a real contender for the White House.

HARLOW: Marc?

HILL: I wish I could watch the TV at Ben's house. He must have had it closed captioned by somebody else. Maybe team Rubio did it.

I think if you look at the 9:00 debates it was John Kasich. It was Governor Kasich of Ohio. He did everything to look sensible, to look reasonable, to look principled. He gave a great answer on gay marriage, one that I don't agree with ultimately but still --

FERGUSON: He was compassionate.

HILL: He didn't sound like -- yes, it was compassionate. He didn't sound like a monster.

Again, it's a tough field but he seemed the most reasonable. I think he has a shot.

HARLOW: Ben, who is the best candidate who will not get the nomination?

FERGUSON: Probably Ben Carson. I think he's an incredibly smart, mild-mannered individual. I think that he's someone that can obviously bring something to the table on a lot of issues but I just don't know if he has that X factor. He's so calm, he's so cool, he's so collected.

However, I said this after the debate the other night. I think he's my number one choice for the vice presidency right now because he is a guy that can actually bring a different perspective, not a political perspective, to the White House.

(BUZZER)

HARLOW: Marc, to you?

HILL: The X factor. Only if X is like, you know, knowledge of politics or experience. He has absolutely no qualification to be president.

Look, every day citizens can be president in America. I'm not begrudging him that. He looked out of place up there, he didn't have his words together, he wasn't coherent. He's a brilliant man. He just doesn't seem to know anything about

being president. And I think that's a bad thing. Same issue I have with Donald Trump. Same issue I have with a few folks.

The best person who will not be president? Again, I think it goes back to Kasich again. I think that he has executive experience, he knows the job, he's in a crucial swing state. He's not brilliant but he knows the issues. I like him.

(BUZZER)

HARLOW: And your time's up.

Ben, who should have been on the main stage, the 9:00 debate, but was not?

FERGUSON: I think definitely the former -- the only woman in the GOP side that's in this.

[16:45:00] She did a fabulous job in that early debate. I think you are going to see her on the debate stage next time around. I think you're going to see a lot of people. She has been going viral online. A lot what have she said was put out there and people kept retweeting it and connecting to it, putting it on Facebook.

There was a lot of buzz about her as a candidate. So, I think she is probably the one you have to say she had a great early debate and now will probably be on the big stage next time.

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HARLOW: Marc, who should have been on the main stage?

HILL: Ben got one right. It's Carly Fiorina.

One, it's shameful that ten people are onstage, not one woman makes the cut. That's a problem. Again, I respect democracy. I'm just saying it looks bad.

You know, Carly Fiorina gave good answers, she was strong, she was smart, she's certainly capable. She's a leader. Again, I don't know if she's presidential material just like I don't know if the other ten are presidential material, but I would like to see her on the stage. She certainly showed she deserves a spot reserved for a guy named Ben Carson.

HARLOW: Marc, a couple weeks ago on this show, you said that Donald Trump will not be here with us in this primary October 24th. You sticking with that date?

HILL: I am, because -- and here's why: one, because there's no -- if I'm wrong, I'm already wrong so I might as well ride it out George Bush style. But also, because I think voters will give up on Donald trump at some point. The GOP has thrown him under the bus.

By September, he will plummet. By October, he will leave. By the end of October, he will give some brilliant reason why he no longer is in the GOP primary. Doesn't mean he won't be an independent later on.

HARLOW: Ben? You agree?

FERGUSON: I think there's a good chance he's right. I hope he's right because hey, maybe by then, Donald Trump could be a Democrat and he will be Marc Lamont Hill's and Hillary Clinton's problem which I would love to hand over to you, buddy. It would be so great to see him and Hillary --

HILL: No, thank you.

FERGUSON: -- onstage with Bernie Sanders. That is what my true dream is for you.

HARLOW: Come on, Ben.

HILL: I would love to see that.

HARLOW: Do you dream about anything more exciting than politics?

FERGUSON: I mean, well, yes, you know, keeping the 30-second box here.

HARLOW: All right, gentlemen. Appreciate you sticking the time. Thank you for being with me, Ben Ferguson, Marc Lamont Hill.

Tonight on this show, you will hear from Donald Trump's top political advisor, a friend of Trump for 35 years, a man who guided him to the top spot in the polls and a man who is now out of a job, Roger Stone says he quit the campaign. Trump says he fired Roger Stone. Roger Stone will join me tonight, 6:00 p.m. Eastern only right here.

We'll be right back.

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[16:51:47] HARLOW: Our "American Opportunities" segment today, the high cost of education. Not for students but for teachers, as teachers get ready for the school year, a lot of kids probably heading back to school pretty soon.

Well, teachers will spend $1.6 billion across this country of their own money for back-to-school supplies for their students. That is nearly $500 for each teacher out of pocket. Just a reminder of how much we expect of our teachers and, frankly, how much they give. That is just one sacrifice teachers make.

Salary for a lot of teachers is another. Between 1999 and 2013, the average salary of a teacher dipped 1.3 percent to $56,383 a year. That's on average.

Even taking inflation into account, teachers working 14 years ago made more than teachers today. That is making it harder and harder to recruit the best of the best to teach our children.

A few weeks ago I asked Education Secretary Arne Duncan about this. And he admitted this is a problem.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARNE DUNCAN, EDUCATION SECRETARY: No one goes into education to become a millionaire. They want to help. You shouldn't have to take a vow of poverty, either.

So, you have places that are doing different things. Denver has done interesting things with their teachers contract, where great teachers can be mentor teachers and give more. It's sort of respecting teachers as leaders and empowering them. That's a great way to both attract and retain.

(END VIDEO CLI)

HARLOW: Danny Kofke joins me now. He was a teacher. He's the author of "How to Survive and Perhaps Thrive on a Teacher's Salary."

Thank you for being here.

DANNY KOFKE, AUTHOR, "HOW TO SURVIVE ON A TEACHER'S SALARY": Hey, Poppy. Thank you so much for having me on.

HARLOW: You heard what Secretary Duncan told me about empowering teachers but is the fact that teachers are just going to have to keep accepting lower salaries despite the importance of our job, of their job, because every single family that I talk to that is struggling with poverty, living in poverty, trying to get out, tells me the answer is education. So, shouldn't these be the people we are paying the most to?

KOFKE: Oh, as a former teacher and have a wife that's a teacher, absolutely. But I think a lot of times with the economic picture we had furlough days a few years ago. My county in Georgia while I was teaching, we had ten furlough days. So, sometimes there's little things that are kind of out of our control as teachers and just new schools and when the economy takes a nosedive, then it affects our salaries.

I know here in Georgia, it seems like a lot of things were on the up- rise in many counties, so hopefully the paychecks will start going up in years to come.

HARLOW: I want you to listen to what Republican presidential candidate Chris Christie of New Jersey said last weekend in an interview with Jake Tapper on "STATE OF THE UNION."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST, "STATE OF THE UNION": During your first term as governor, you were fond of saying you could treat bullies in one of two ways. Quote, "You could sidle up to them or you can punch them in the face." You said, "I like to punch them in the face."

At the national level, who deserves a punch in the face? GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Oh, the national

teachers union, who has already endorsed Hillary Clinton 16, 17 months before the election.

TAPPER: Why?

CHRISTIE: Because they're not for education for our children. They're for greater membership, greater benefits, greater pay for their members. And they are the single most destructive force in public education in America.

I have been saying that since 2009.

[16:55:00] I've got the scars to show it. But I'm never going to stop saying it because they never change their stripes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Does he have a point? Even if you don't fully agree with him, does he have a point about the union as it stands now?

KOFKE: I think in some areas, yes. I mean, some of us have read the horror stories especially in the Northeast of some of the teacher unions protecting really, really bad teachers.

Here in Georgia, we are a right to work state so we have a little union presence but it's not as powerful as the one in the Northeast. So, yes, there are like with anything, there is a minority of the teaching profession that probably shouldn't be in it. But those are the ones that we hear about.

The majority of teachers are good teachers. They get into the profession first and foremost because they have a passion and want to make a difference in the world. There's not many teachers that I talk to that say I want to get into it so I can have all these children and I have to do all this paperwork now and do all the tests.

HARLOW: Let me ask you this. You left the profession. Would you have stayed for a higher salary? I mean, what would it have taken?

KOFKE: I have a passion with personal finance, too, and helping people manage their money so actually now in my new role I get to go to schools and talk to teachers about saving money. So I'm kind of still a teacher, just in a different format.

So, I think following your passions is why people get into teaching. So, I'm still a teacher in a way. So, It's hard to say. I didn't leave and I didn't get into it for the money. So I probably would be where I am right now, but a larger salary would definitely, it would help.

HARLOW: Seems like you have no question that raising teachers' salaries would recruit even more?

KOFKE: Well, of course. If you're going into college and you say if I start off, I'm going to make this amount if I go into the private world, if I'm a teacher I'm going to make this amount, a lot of people will look at that and say, I'm going to start off where I'm going to make more money, especially now with how many college graduates have student loan debt and have to pay it back.

HARLOW: Danny Kofke, thank you. For all of our teachers, thank you all.

KOFKE: Thank you, Poppy.

HARLOW: Coming up, more on Donald Trump's comments about FOX News host Megyn Kelly that has outraged a lot of people. Some standing behind Trump and supporting him. Later, his top former political advisor, member of his inner circle until today will join me.

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