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Bernie Sanders And Donald Trump Soar In Recent Polling; Rookie Texas Police Officer Who Killed Unarmed College Football Player Fired; Tom Brady And Roger Goodell Face Off In Front Of U.S. District Judge. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired August 12, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:22] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: All right, here we go. Top of the hour. Thank you so much for watching. I'm Brooke Baldwin. And this is CNN.

We begin with the race for the White House that no one saw coming. President Bernie Sanders or maybe President Donald Trump. Marinate on that for a moment. Could the 2016 presidential ticket really come to down to a folk singing Democratic socialist from Vermont and a billionaire reality TV star?

Both of these men now sitting on top of the polls in New Hampshire. Look for yourself. The critical first in the nation primary. Bernie Sanders at 44 percent surging ahead of Hillary Clinton at 37 points. And while Donald Trump also leads his Republican rivals in New Hampshire he can now add Iowa to his gains as well pushing Scott Walker out of first place in the first poll taken after last debate.

So joining me now Roger Stone, Republican consultant and Donald Trump's former senior adviser and in the interest of transparency he says he quit last week. Donald Trump says he was fired. There is that. Also Jay Parini, he is an English professor at middle grade college in Vermont and he has been following Sanders since his early days since he was mayor in Burlington, Vermont once a upon a time.

So gentlemen, welcome to all of you.

ROGER STONE, DONALD TRUMP FORMER SENIOR ADVISOR: Great to be here, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Roger let me just begin with you. You know, he keeps rising in the polls. No matter what the flap or the misstep may be. If you did indeed quit are you sorry you did?

STONE: No. I'm delighted because a lot of the critiques that I made from the outside seemed to be listened to. He's now flushing out his issue positions. He is staffing up in the early states. He is coming to grips with getting on the ballad. I'm delighted because I'm 100 percent for Trump.

Now, I must tell you. I like Bernie Sanders even though his philosophy is different than mine. Both these candidates are outsiders. Both of these candidates are non-establishment candidates. And when it gets down to policy, Bush and Clinton, that's identical. They are identical on every issue. They never do sound different. But I think the same anger and frustration by the voters that is propelling Trump is also propelling Sanders. They're both populists on the opposite wings of the spectrum.

BALDWIN: Right, 65,000 people as far as crown drawn for Bernie Sanders in both L.A., Seattle, and Portland, which is incredible.

So Jay, to you, you know, I mean, you are so well aware given your CNN opinion piece that I read, you know, anything from, I don't know, ISIS to Iran to this racial injustice platform for Bernie Sanders. What would a Bernie Sanders presidency look like?

JAY PARINI, HAS FOLLOWED BERNIE SANDERS' POLITICAL CAREER SINCE 1980S: It would be a radical presidency. Bernie Sanders genuinely does represent the 99 percent of working people. I ran into a guy on the street and he said to me you're for Sanders aren't you? I said I sure am. He said, you know, I work 40, 50 hours a week and my wife does in local businesses and we can't find sneakers for our three kids. Something is wrong in the country where your average person can't buy sneakers for your kids. They look to Bernie and say here's a guy whose policies, whose whole life commitment is to average working people. By contrast to Donald Trump, I mean, Donald Trump doesn't just represent the one percent. He almost by himself is the one percent.

BALDWIN: Do you want to respond quickly?

STONE: Well, the voters don't want to redistribute the wealth either. So these guys are on the polar opposites. The same anger is fueling them. The truth is voters aren't ideological. They don't want to say I'm a liberal. Here's what they know. The system is broken.

I worked in Washington for 30 years. I've been a lobbyist. I worked on the Senate side, the house side, I worked in campaigns. Politics is a sewer. The special interests can buy anything, the PACs, the lobbyists, the special pleaders, the Koch brothers, the billionaires everything is for sale.

I will say this about Bernie Sanders, I think he's honest. I think he is ethical. This is also true of Trump. So I think the same anger is fueling these candidacies and we're going to turn both parties upside down before this is over.

BALDWIN: Let me come back to you, with Jay. With regard to those who are now supporting Bernie Sanders, not to mention the massive grounds he's drawing, a new comedian Sara Silverman is backing him just yesterday. He reference this in the lead graph of your piece, this internet famous incredibly, influential online rapper Lil' B, he made national news, right, by switching his allegiance from Hillary Clinton to Bernie Sanders. Here's a clip of our interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRANDON "LIL B" MCCARTNEY, RAPPER: At lot of people started to talking to me about Bernie Sanders and I like, hey, you need to pay attention to him. Bernie was a part of fighting against segregation. That was something that touched my heart and I appreciate it because most likely I don't think that was cool for him to do that back then. But he still marched. As well as I heard he was for free education which is -- that makes me so happy because there's a lot of poor kids that might want to learn.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:05:22] BALDWIN: All Right, Jay, so other than Lil B and Sara Silverman, who are in these crowds packing these arenas for this man?

PARINI: If you look in the crowds you see a lot of young people. My 20-year-old son tells me all of his friends are crazy about Bernie. He is my authentic boy. I think Mr. Stone is correct that Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders represent authentic voices and they're not bought men. Donald Trump obviously could buy and sell anybody. But Bernie Sanders represents average American (INAUDIBLE).

BALDWIN: Not the best connection. But I think you're saying Bernie Sanders represents, you know, average men and women in this country.

Roger, back to you. Let me place some sound, but on Bernie Sanders and Trump, you know, over the weekend there was a Black Lives Matter activist who took the stage and sort of took the podium away from Bernie Sanders. He allowed her to do that and he left. And Donald Trump took that moment and ran with it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Took off his microphone to a protester, like Bernie Sanders?

TRUMP: I would never give up my microphone. I thought that was disgusting. That showed such weakness the way he was taken away by two young women, the microphone. They just took the whole place over. I feel badly for him. But it showed that he's weak. You know what, he's getting the biggest crowds and I'm getting the biggest crowds. We're the two getting the crowds but believe me, that's not going to happen to Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Granted that was prompted by a question. But do you think we will see more jabs from Mr. Trump toward Bernie Sanders or toward Hillary Clinton?

STONE: Well, first he's got to get nominated. He's running against 15 --

BALDWIN: They're not waiting to get nominated though.

STONE: You know, I'm not sure that I'm prepared to say that Bernie Sanders will be nominated. He's clearly getting some strength. I actually think it speaks more to the weakness of Hillary Clinton than the strength of Bernie Sanders. Neither Trump or Sanders on paper would appear to be the candidates winning this race on paper. Where I disagree with the professor is the kind of Americans voting for Trump, they're not wealthy. They are not extremely ideological. They're populous conservatives. They are right at center. But they are the working class Republicans. And therefore, for example, his proposal for a one-time tax increase 20 years ago to eradicate the deficit in one fell swoop only on the super, super wealthy, the Republicans say that violates the Republicans orthodox, not for the trump voters. The Trump voters are working class voters.

BALDWIN: You should read because I think Jay would counter you a bit. We are losing one of the connection. But read his opinion piece because he goes to a lot of it line by line and may disagree.

Final question to you, though, as we look ahead to the next Republican debate. You helped trump prepare for this last one. Who should we expect to see on that stage out of Donald Trump?

STONE: Well, the professor should read my opinion piece at the "Business Insider" yesterday.

I think Trump will be fine in the next debate. Look, he's not a career politician. He has never done this before. The format was not favorable to him.

STONE: BALDWIN: How come? How do you mean?

STONE: Well, in other words, you have seven whole minutes to speak out of this entire two-hour debate.

BALDWIN: But there's a lot of candidates.

STONE: I understand. And that doesn't lend itself to a detailed discussion of the issues. But like anything else in life, I'm confident he'll be better than in the second debate than he was in the first debate and I thought he did fine in the first debate.

My arguments in my letter of resignation had to do with the post- debate. And I think he's turning the corner. He is now very clearly back on the sweeping messages that have propelled him to the first place in this race which is the economy is in the toilet. We are getting taken to the cleaners by our trade partners. Our veterans can't get decent health care.

BALDWIN: But he's been interviewed and he is not really going talking much on substances. He says wait to the next debate. So hopefully we'll hear that substance and all those issues you were just outlining.

STONE: I think it is been course of the campaign.

BALDWIN: Does he have the infrastructure to maintain in all of this?

STONE: I think he can get the infrastructure. He certainly has the financing. It is interesting to me that the last person that had this kind of uprising was Ross Perot. Another man of great wealth, but a man propelled by working people. I see the same thing with Sanders. I see the same thing here with Trump.

BALDWIN: Quickly, there was a piece on the "Wall Street Journal" speaking of Trump's fund. A lot of not his own money is going toward this. I believe I read the word, frugal in the same sentence as Donald Trump. I know it made to the campaign manager goes over the budget for the upcoming week. Is it fair to call him frugal?

STONE: Yes. That's who I want running the federal budget. In other words, they say, you went to Atlantic City and you stiffed the big banks. That's not dumb. That's smart. That's the guy I want running the federal government. We are deeply in debt. There's almost a trillion dollars un-swept in the federal accounts today. Every president from Nixon to Clinton swept those funds in the general fund but not Barack Obama. So before you start cutting social security or Medicare, let's find out what's already in the budget in terms of fact. That's Trump's view.

[14:10:20] BALDWIN: You sure you don't want back?

STONE: Absolutely.

BALDWIN: All right. Roger Stone, thank you. And Jay Parini, thank you both as well.

Don't forget the new CNN poll on the presidential race will be revealed at 4:00 eastern today on "the LEAD" with my colleague Jake Tapper. Jake will also have an interview with Donald Trump 4:00 eastern. Don't miss it. Thank you.

Next, a rookie police officer fired after shooting and killing an unarmed football player. But was his deadly mistake criminal in the eyes of the law?

Plus, they beat us, they blamed us in the search for answers, hear what inmates at that maximum security prison in upstate New York said what happened once these two broke out.

And a beauty queen accused of faking cancer to get rich. We have this entire alleged scheme. All the details ahead here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:15:18] BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

This rookie Texas police officer who shot and killed an unarmed college football player has now been fired. Brad Miller let go from the Arlington police department for what the police chief called inappropriate judgment. He had been on the force for less than a year. Miller shot and killed 19-year-old Christian Taylor while responding to a burglary call at a car dealership. Security cameras captured Taylor entering the lot and damaging a number of cars. And these are actually pictures of some of these edited surveillance video getting on top, smashing some of the windshields.

Miller was working with a training officer when he opened fire on this young man. His training officer pulled out a Taser gun. Obviously, the officer we are discussing pulled out an actual gun.

I have the statement now just in for the attorney for this police officer Brad Miller and it says in part quote "Chief Johnson used 20/20 hindsight to protect his job in a piece anti-police activist. Officer Miller made decisions in a heated violent confrontation to save his and other officers' lives. A four-day investigation and media theatrics are not even close to due process."

Let's discuss with CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney Phillip Holloway and also with me here in New York HLN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney Joey Jackson.

So Joey Jackson, let's just again with that statement.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, look, his attorney, the officer's attorney has to defend him and in his defense he's saying due process requires more, requires an analysis of the facts.

BALDWIN: Those are strong words.

JACKSON: Of course, they're strong words but you expect nothing less from an attorney. But look, for the chief's part, he has something broader to protect. And remember what the chief based this upon. He based this upon procedures and protocol.

Two things in particular, Brooke, were very troubling to the chief and led to the firing. Number one, not establishing a safe perimeter outside of that area and in fact, without establishing that perimeter going into the building. And number two, failing to communicate with the other officers such that this event may or may not have happened in the way it did.

And so, that's what the chief was passing judgment upon. The protocols in terms of whether the procedures were followed that might have prevented this tragedy. The chief was not passing judgment on the criminality or lack thereof with regard to the taking of the life of unarmed Christian Taylor.

BALDWIN: So Phillip then, on the criminality, we know that, you know, he obviously has been fired but could there be, would there be, and what would they be as far as criminal charges go here?

PHILLIP HOLLOWAY, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good afternoon, Brooke. Good afternoon, Joey.

You know, whether or not there's going to be any criminal charges is going to depend on whether or not the officer's conduct was objectively reasonable under the totality of the circumstances. And the officer's attorney apparently has read the law on this because it comes from a U.S. Supreme Court case from 1989 called Graham versus Connor. And one thing that that case says is that in criminal cases or if it were a civil case, for example, the courts cannot use the lens of 20/20 hindsight to determine whether or not the officer's actions were reasonable.

However, when it comes to making a personal decision like firing this officer who was a probationary employee at that point, the chief was well within his rights to terminate him if he believed that the officer even so much as failed to follow the restraining policy.

BALDWIN: Do we even know, I'm turning to you, do we even, we know there was some kind of altercation that obviously led to this. Do we know if it was a verbal altercation? Because I'm asking because I'm wondering then how would the officer feel like his life was in danger?

JACKSON: Sure. Well, you know, look, it ultimately everything will develop and we'll get a full picture of exactly what happened but there are things that are known now. What is known now? It's known that they never got to be a physical confrontation, number one. But number two, that apparently officer Miller felt it could become physical by virtue of Christian Taylor approaching him and moving forward towards him.

Now to Phillip Holloway's point on the issue of the law, it turns down to - it turns into if the officer in fact is reasonably in belief that he's going to be imminently threatened or harmed than could he use force.

BALDWIN: But then I go back to the office who was doing the training who has been on the force for 19-some years who pulls out the taser.

JACKSON: Exactly. And that hurts really in a negative way because what you do is use this objectively reasonable point of view in the officer's position. And the other officer apparently felt that a taser was more appropriate than a firearm and that's what's going to be very problematic from a defense perspective.

BALDWIN: How do you explain that?

Final question to you, Phillip, as a defense attorney, how would you argue against the use of a taser in this situation for this officer in training?

HOLLOWAY: Well, I would say that this officer did in fact not only subjectively in his own mind feel that his life or the lives of the other officers was in danger, but that it was objectively reasonable for him to feel that way.

But to Joey's point, the prosecution, if he is charge would counter that by saying look at all the other officers, they did not make the unilateral decision to rush in. They did not make the decision to leave their partner and they did not resort to a firearm first, they went to a taser. So I think it's going to be very difficult to sell to say that it was objectively reasonable to do so.

[14:20:31] BALDWIN: This reminds me of the Charlotte case where the one officer who shot and killed that young man and everyone else did not pulled that on.

JACKSON: Sure. Grand jury, Brooke. They'll make the determination.

BALDWIN: Joey Jackson, Phillip Holloway, thank you both very much.

JACKSON: Thank you.

HOLLOWAY: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up, life after the escape. While David Sweat and Richard Matt were on the run in upstate New York, all in those woods, new details emerging about what happened inside that Clinton correctional facility in the days following their prison break and in the moments as well. Fellow inmates now painting a pretty grim picture including allegations of torture and beatings and prison officials unleashing their anger with those details.

Also, to settle or not to settle, deflategate heads to court. Tom Brady going before a judge today to fight his four-game suspension.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tom!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't settle, Tom!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:25:39] BALDWIN: Deflategate, the saga continues. It's now made its way here, this case, to federal court. That is where Patriot superstar quarterback Tom Brady and NFL commissioner Roger Goodell, just faced off just a short time ago in front of a U.S. district judge.

Here is the deal. The NFL is at odds with the players' union and Tom Brady over his four-game suspension this fall regarding these underinflated footballs.

So Rachel Nichols has been all over this. She's joins me today from Atlanta. Tell us what happened inside this court, first of all.

RACHEL NICHOLS, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: Yes, unbelievable. More than 200 days, Brooke, since these alleged footballs were deflated in the AFC championship game and here we are.

The two parties appearing in in front of Judge Richard Berman who is known among his colleagues as a settlement judge. He likes to push both sides to find middle ground before he has to rule. And to that end, he met separately with Roger Goodell and his attorneys and then with Tom Brady and his attorneys privately in what they call the robing room. Very Cloak and Dagger there. And then they came out into open court where, really, it became fascinating.

Judge Richard Berman openly questioning attorneys from both sides asking, Brooke, a lot of the questions that we in the media have been asking for months now. Only this time they're under oath and they actually have to answer them.

So Judge Berman impressing the NFL side on whether the Wells (ph) report, this big investigation that the NFL keeps touting is independent. Well, the judge says how could it be independent if you guys paid millions of dollars to the lawyer who completed it?

And by the way, one of the NFL attorneys actually edited the report before it was finalized and given to the public. Also the NFL was questioned on whether they had any direct evidence of Tom Brady doing any kind of cheating. And the attorney really couldn't provide that falling back on the fact that it's really just falling under the judgment of Commissioner Roger Goodell.

But the NFL PA said they didn't get off easy. Their side was questioned on the cell phone. Why didn't Tom Brady destroy his cell phone? Why wasn't he forthcoming in the first place with his text messages? And did he obstruct the investigation?

And really, what this was, was not only an exploration into the issues, Brooke. But also Judge Berman again pushing the sides to settle by demonstrating to them that hey, your case that you think is so strong has got some holes and I have seen it and I have seen on both sides.

So if you think you have all the cards, you have the winnable position and your other side is just going to have to fold, think twice, guys. You're going to want to settle because you have some problems, too. It will be interesting to see if these two sides which are so far afar at the beginning of the day are shaken at all by what happened in court today and they start to move closer.

BALDWIN: To be continued my friend. To be continued.

NICHOLS: You know it will be, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Rachel Nichols, thank you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I really think I'm going to win. I mean, you know, I'm an optimist.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Donald Trump the optimist spoke. He is dominating the polls, dominating the conversation, but what does he have to say about what he will do if or when he wins?

Let's bring in CNN politics reporter M.J. Lee and just take us through some of the few policy versions Trump has put out there thus far. So great to have you on as always.

M.J. LEE, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: So let's begin starting with what Trump said on "NEW DAY" about the Iran nuclear deal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I guarantee you that if I were president, this deal wouldn't be made, a deal would be made that's 100 times better. The sanctions would be doubled because I will convince Germany and I will convince all of the countries that we're talking about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)\

BALDWIN: I hear convincing, convincing. So he is trying to -- he's hoping to dominate with his negotiating prowess.

LEE: Yes. And first of all, the Iran deal, there's nothing that Republicans love to dump on more than that deal.

BALDWIN: It's true.

LEE: So it's not surprising that Trump would talk this way. It's a great way for Republicans to say, you know, President Obama and his foreign policy, you know, deals are not good. This is not good for the country. And for Trump, talking about himself as a negotiator is a key and central theme of his candidacy.

BALDWIN: Successful businessman.

LEE: Right.

BALDWIN: Negotiating powers.

LEE: Right. Over the decades he had made all these business deals and therefore has made, you know, billions and billions of dollars according to Trump. So this is a central part of his candidacy and a way in which he has differentiated himself from the rest of the field. He talked swimmingly about how he would get along with Vladimir Putin.

BALDWIN: Right.

LEE: Which have caught a lot of people's attention.