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Religious Leaders Unite against Slavery; Coming Together against Slavery; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired August 19, 2015 - 14:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: a special edition of the program, where we look back at some of the highlights of the
year so far.
AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour, live from Rome, where, for the first time, leaders of
the world's major faiths have come together to help eradicate modern-day slavery by the year 2020, which is just five years away.
Earlier today I moderated a panel here at the Vatican that included Pope Francis, the Archbishop of Canterbury and leaders of Buddhism,
Hinduism, Judaism, Shiite and Sunni Islam as well. Indeed, the handshake between Francis and the imams was especially notable because of the
negative remarks quoted about Islam by his predecessor, Pope Benedict.
Next to all of today's crises, modern-day slavery is not at the top of the agenda but that is precisely the point of this summit. The nearly 36
million modern-day slaves, which are used for labor, for sex and even forced organ transplants, live in the shadows, their fate entirely in other
More than 14 million people are estimated to be enslaved in India. But it's not only there in the developing world; the United States is home
to 60,000 modern-day slaves. Even in Sweden, hallmark of Scandinavian modernity, there are an estimated 1,200 slaves.
CNN has long championed this issue with the Freedom Project. In a moment, my interview with Justin Welby, head of the worldwide Anglican
Church. But first, the Holy Father himself.
AMANPOUR: Holy Father, you played a key role in establishing the Global Freedom Network. You were the first person to call modern slavery
and human trafficking a crime against humanity. As you appeal for this scourge to be eradicated once and for all, tell us what exactly motivated
your passion about this particular scourge.
POPE FRANCIS (through translator): On behalf of all of our and abilities conversation we take care that human slavery in terms of
prostitution, organs exploitation and also human trafficking in a crime against humanity.
This takes place in hiding behind closed doors, in private homes, in the streets, in the cars. In fact, there is in the fields, in fishing
boats and in so many other places, this takes place both in cities and villages, villages of the richest and the poorest nations on Earth.
The worst is that this situation is unfortunately becoming worse and worse every day. I call upon all people in faith --
POPE FRANCIS (through translator): -- and their leaders and their governments and companies. I call on men and women of good will to provide
their strong support and join this movement against modern slavery in all its forms.
AMANPOUR: Now straight after the summit and the other statements, I sat down for a rare interview with Justin Welby, the Archbishop of
Canterbury and head of the worldwide Anglican Church on this and other key issues affecting the church and our world.
AMANPOUR: Archbishop Justin Welby, thank you for joining us.
WELBY: Thank you very much. It's a great honor to be with you.
AMANPOUR: We have just witnessed an amazing gathering of every faith leader in the world, signing this pledge to eradicate modern slavery.
What made you get on this course so early?
WELBY: I think it's two things. One is the inspiration of the pope. And when we first met, which was very shortly after we'd both come into
office, and we mentioned this over lunch and I heard the passion in his voice and it rekindled something that was there in me already.
For me the origins of it go right back to years spent working on conflict management work, because slavery, the agony of slavery, the taking
away of people, as we've seen in Chibok in northeastern Nigeria and so on, is very much part of conflict. And so that was in my mind.
AMANPOUR: And not only what you have seen sort of on the road, as you say, going back, but you are also from the business community. And I say
this because we understand the moral imperative to eradicate slavery. Who wouldn't?
How does one do it in our world today where it's a multibillion dollar business, where the number of slaves just keep increasing instead of
WELBY: You have to hit at all levels. There is clear government involvement. We've seen the French and the British governments are leading
the way with anti-slavery laws, which are going to have an impact.
They change the culture; they also give the police powers to deal with things. There's a hard edge to dealing with this. It's a policing matter.
There's a business edge at the second level, companies being acutely conscious of their supply chain, acutely conscious of their subcontractors,
investors, particularly in the U.K. in the city of London, asking the companies in which they invest, are you conscious of your supply chains,
putting that little bit of pressure on them.
And lastly, the NGO community, very often in the field, in immense risk, very often local like that remarkable man, James, an ex-slave who
read the declaration, people like that, keeping it in front of us, the vivid human cost.
AMANPOUR: Would you think, for instance, that some kind of divestment movement or some kind of mass global action might work, just as it did to
end apartheid in South Africa, does it take something like that, do you think?
WELBY: There will be cases where divestment is going to be necessary. There will be companies where, however much you talk to them, however much
their name's in the press, they say, no, no, no. We -- it's not our business or we can't follow the supply chain or whatever.
Then divestment is necessary. You start with engagement, you know, to talk about a previous U.S. president, you talk softly and carry a big
AMANPOUR: It is an amazing thing. More and more children and especially the majority of slaves are women.
AMANPOUR: What can be done to sensitize from every religious pulpit, so to speak, not just Christian, but Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Hebrew,
whatever it was that was gathered here today, to actually put women and children's rights forward?
WELBY: Well, you put your finger on it very, very precisely. The vast majority of slaves are women and we have to name it. The biggest
single cause of slavery is the sex trade.
Therefore, a change in our attitude towards sex workers, seeing them as victims, seeing them as people who need to be got alongside and
supported and helped, I was hearing earlier today of a case where a woman had appeared over 150 times in front some judges before they said to her,
are you doing this voluntarily?
And she -- and it became apparent she was a slave.
That's the sensitization will begin to have an effect. You're tagging a bit at that end.
WELBY: But it's also the things you do, frankly, what the media can do, holding up in front of us the faces of the slaves, the children, the
girls, the women above all, that break our hearts and cause us to change popular opinion.
AMANPOUR: Do you think that empowering more women, for instance, what the Church of England has just done, agreed to allow women bishops for the
first time in the history of the church, do you think that could have an effect?
WELBY: I think it's part of a very, very large jigsaw puzzle. I wouldn't like to make over-grand claims about something that, in my
opinion, we should have done some time ago.
But it is part of an over -- of a very big jigsaw puzzle in which pieces are put in which constantly say that the role of women in our
society, the position of women is to be protected and respected in exactly the same way as everyone else, that there is no one who is somehow to be
treated as second-rate or lesser person, having less human rights.
And the more we do that, the more effective the change of culture becomes.
AMANPOUR: When do we think we might see the first woman bishop in England, in the Church of England?
WELBY: Whenever they're chosen. It has to go through for the role of ascent, for the Queen to approve it before they're announced. The -- and
we won't have an announcement before early 2015. But I would expect to see women bishop announced in the first quarter of next year.
AMANPOUR: And do you universally expect to see a lot -- I think I read you say that eventually -- or not -- in not-too-distant future, half
the bishops may be women.
WELBY: Why not? Why not? More than half the congregations are.
AMANPOUR: Might you say something to the pope about that?
WELBY: I'm not going to say what I'd say to the pope. That was a loaded question.
AMANPOUR: What do you say about your own Anglican Church, which is split on this issue and other issues of sexuality?
Do you think that there is a crisis in the Anglican Church?
WELBY: The split within the Anglican Church over women bishops has become far less important. There's -- we've moved much closer to a point
where people accept different views as legitimate, certainly within the Church of England.
There is a formal declaration that accepts both views as legitimate views and we remain part of the family. You don't chuck out family.
On the issue of sexuality within -- particularly within in the Church of England, there are conversations going on, structured conversations,
which will continue for the next couple of years and I'm not going to preempt those by commenting on them.
AMANPOUR: And yet I've heard you say and be quoted as saying that the church could face a very serious schism over these issues.
WELBY: Indeed it could. And part of what we're trying to do is if we disagree, to disagree well. I mean, the kind of thing we were hearing
about today, the faith leaders together, we heard references obliquely to the fact that around the world a lot of our disagreement particularly in
the last few years has become extremely violent, destructive disagreement.
So the part of the role of the church is to demonstrate that even on things people think are fundamental, incredibly important, that they can
disagree well and in love.
That is part of our example.
AMANPOUR: And when we come back, I'll talk more with Archbishop Welby. I'll ask him about tough issues, including how to deal with the
damaging revelations of sexual abuse within the church -- after a break.
AMANPOUR: And welcome back to our special program, live from Rome, where the world's major religious leaders have together signed a pledge to
end modern-day slavery.
Now as we pick up the second part of my interview with Archbishop Justin Welby, we continue to talk about tough issues facing the church,
including the legacy of sexual abuse.
AMANPOUR: We also have emerged and are emerging from a world in which many of our institutions have been condemned and are busy apologizing for
sexual abuse of children in their care, whether it's here in the Vatican, whether it's television, whether it's Parliament, wherever it is, it seems
every time we turn around there's another outrage that's been committed against children.
Can you tell me what you are doing to address this scourge in your own church?
WELBY: We have in the last few years, 10, 15, even 20 years now, been steadily tightening up the current practice and it is very, very tough now.
And where someone seeks to abuse children today, as far as we know, they are -- you can never be sure that everything's done right.
But on the overwhelming majority are stopped and they are instantly reported to the police and to the local authorities and the issue is
The biggest issue for us is the legacy of vast abuse in the days when in, if I may say so, also, television and all kinds of areas, it was
considered relatively acceptable. We -- you know, so-and-so was known to be a bit dodgy, but nobody made too much fuss, that dreadful nightmare era.
We are going through all our files. We've gone through every file, back file of every living clergy person in the Church of England and looked
for any signs that there was a problem and followed them up where there was.
Diocese by diocese, when they were beginning the huge task of going back over all files, back for decades, in many cases back to 1950,
including deceased clergy, and again looking for any evidence, when we see any evidence, following it up to see if the survivors are still alive so
that if they want to engage, if they want us to acknowledge the dreadful evil that was done to them, we will do it.
But they are treated as the important people. Their interests come first, whether the perpetrators are alive or dead, survivors must come
first. It's a huge culture change in our whole society. The church has to get it right. There are no excuses for us for getting it wrong.
AMANPOUR: How did you yourself feel and react when you came across your first evidence case of this?
WELBY: Well, the first one was -- it was some years ago. We reported it; we dealt with it. I was astonished. I -- then when I began to realize
particularly in this role, since I took office as archbishop, the extent to which things were being covered up, it is the most dreadful and traumatic
part of the ministry I have.
It is the bit you listen to people and you are filled with shame and horror and disgust at what was done to them and anger at how the church
could have behaved in that way.
AMANPOUR: There are politicians in our own country, in England, here in Italy, in France, elsewhere, which are making -- who are making a big
deal about --
AMANPOUR: -- the other, the foreigner, the immigrants.
What do you make of this as the church leader, as the head of the Church of England?
WELBY: Two things: first, the United Kingdom, England, is a very, very arid (ph) country. Since 2010, the "Financial Times" this morning
reported, we've had net immigration of over 600,000 people. And immigration is something that has to be handled carefully, because it is a
cause of strain in communities where very large numbers arrive. It always has been.
There's an amazing chapel in Canterbury Cathedral, in which the dean of the cathedral gave a space for worship to Huguenot refugees from
religious persecution in the 16th century. He gave it to them temporarily. It's still there. They still have a Sunday service every week.
It is the great tradition, secondly, of this country to be a place of asylum and safety and rescue and hope for people from all around the world.
It is deeply embedded in our tradition of hospitality.
AMANPOUR: Do you feel some of that is being lost on certain more populist politicians in England right now, in Great Britain?
WELBY: The issue has become a very, very live issue in recent months and years. There is a grave danger of using language that is simply
appealing to emotion.
We have to hold together our pride in the country I love for its generosity, with the recognition that communities must be supported and
strengthened when there are rapid changes in the makeup of that community.
Human nature is what it is. It's no use pretending it otherwise. But our tradition is so great in Britain of welcome and reception, it is
something to be proud of and to go on living out.
AMANPOUR: Archbishop Justin Welby, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
WELBY: Thank you very much for inviting me.
AMANPOUR: Now the man who brought together the archbishop and the pope and all the other world leaders at today's summit is an Australian
iron ore magnate who launched the Global Freedom Network, Andrew Forrest.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREW FORREST, FOUNDER, GLOBAL FREEDOM NETWORK: A dream come true.
I didn't really understand the huge power of this until the Grand Ayatollah told me this will be the first meeting ever between a grand
ayatollah and the pope. And I thought, my goodness, this is the reality; Sunni and Shia coming together, truly the first time; Christianity and
Islam coming together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Now he and Oscar-winning actress, Mira Sorvino, who is a U.N. ambassador on this issue, told me they think this gathering will, in
fact, be a game-changer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIRA SORVINO, ACTRESS AND U.N. GOODWILL AMBASSADOR: I interviewed the young lady who read the declaration in Spanish. Her real name is Carla and
she goes by Claudia, but she -- I interviewed her five years ago with the Blue Heart Campaign in Mexico.
And at that time, she was a broken, tough girl who was trying to hide her pain. She'd just been rescued from sex trafficking. She was 16 and
told me the most horrific stories of violence to her and her young 2-year old that I'd ever heard.
And to see her reading the declaration in Spanish, that was the most beautiful thing for me, because she is why we all do this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Now imagine a world where people are forced to fight to the death for freedom, not hyperbole but history. How far we've actually come
in the battle against slavery -- after this.
AMANPOUR: And finally, imagine a world where fighting for freedom isn't a metaphor; it's a reality as it was in ancient Rome. And 2,000
years on, the stories of slavery are etched into the stones and foundations of this historic city.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): Who could forget the heroes in chains, the gladiators, who literally battled for liberty?
Forced to fight, surrounded by baying crowds and the towering walls of the ancient Colosseum, most of the gladiators were, in fact, slaves and had
to fight and survive for three years before getting their lives back.
Of course, many died in this arena before they could be set free and so death was their only liberty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): A powerful story of the gladiator rebel who sprang from slavery.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): One of the most famous of the gladiator slaves was Spartacus, who had been a soldier, immortalized in film by Kirk
Douglas. Spartacus managed to escape, but his freedom was short-lived. He was caught and crucified alongside 6,000 other runaway slaves who had
joined his rebel army.
SPARTACUS: My son will be born free.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): But over the millennia, slavery has been pushed back by revolution and reform. And though as we've reported
tonight, the pope is leading this first interfaith campaign to wipe it out for good, it is estimated that even today there are still 36 million slaves
in our modern world.
But perhaps we can find hope in the words of another famous slave, Aesop, who celebrated freedom with fables.
"The level of our success is limited only by our imagination," he said.
AMANPOUR: Yes, indeed.
And that is it for our special program. Remember you can always see the show at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thank you
for watching and goodbye from Rome.