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Outrage Over Anchor Babies Remarks; Defense Chief Looking Into Ashley Madison Hack; 9-year-old Girl Killed in Ferguson; Facebook Co- Founder Dustin Moskovitz Regrets Foolish Sacrifice. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired August 21, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:01] RAUL REYES, IMMIGRATION ANALYST AND ATTORNEY: So number it's dehumanizing, but number two, this whole idea is based on a myth which is -- the notion that people can come here illegally, have a child and somehow that baby anchors them in a country and can protect them from deportation. In fact that's not true at all. In 2013 the Department of Homeland Security deported I believe 73,000 parents of U.S. citizen children.

And what Mr. Trump was saying about women waiting -- pregnant women waiting and then coming over to the border, coming to this country and having children, that is not borne out by statistical evidence at all. In fact, you know, people do come here, they have children but what the overwhelming majority of people who've come to this country legally and illegally, they come to work, they come to provide for their families, they come for a better life.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Raj, I want you to take a listen to what Ted Cruz, another candidate for president in the GOP, had to say today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There's nothing that the press likes more than a sideshow on some politically correct debate. Who cares? What people care about solves the problem and I'll tell you, if I'm elected president, the federal government will secure the border.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Is it a sideshow, as he says?

RAJ BHAKTA, FORMER CONTESTANT, "THE APPRENTICE": I think it is. I mean, whether you call the baby an anchor baby or a Mexican baby, the larger issue here is that a large sector led by Republican candidate Trump and he's pulled a lot of the candidates along with him on to a more extreme position, and saying that we need to build a wall.

And Poppy, here's the point about building walls. Ten years ago when I was running for Congress, I took an elephant and a Mariachi band across the U.S.-Mexico border and paraded, demonstrated the (INAUDIBLE) of the border and actually had an immigrant who's coming across the border detained. I began to have a re-evaluation of the thought on the process and a

society that builds walls is one of the key leading indicators of that society becoming in inward looking failing society whether it was the Romans building their wall, Hadrian's Wall, to keep the barbarians out, whether it was the Chinese trying to keep the Manchurians out with the Great Wall, or the Soviets who built the Berlin wall trying to keep the capitalists out.

Interesting point, all of those societies within a reasonably short period of time failed and the very people they were trying to keep out ended up taking over. That's a really, really important point. And what type of society should be. And that's the real debate, anchor baby or this baby or that baby, is not really where we should be focusing our attention.

HARLOW: We're looking at these images of you crossing the border to make that point. But, you know, when it comes to all of the rhetoric around such an important issue that I think everyone agrees needs to be addressed, it's just how do you best address it, you write, Raul, in your op-ed, "Scapegoating American children is no substitute for thoughtful policy solutions."

Do you think that the debate over this term "anchor babies" gets in the way of those thoughtful solution or does it keep us, the public, and therefore our lawmakers focused on the issue?

REYES: I think it's a little bit of both. What we're seeing now which I think is very unfortunate for Jeb Bush who as you mentioned has ties to the Latino community, he's trying to make himself heard maybe to break out of all the media attention that Donald Trump is getting. Unfortunately by using this term, he's really -- you know, he's following Trump down the path, shifting the discourse and the fact is, it's not just that Latinos find it offensive.

You know, as I mentioned, it's an inaccurate term. The American Heritage dictionary defines it as pejorative. The "New York Times" defines it as pejorative. And I think for Jeb Bush going forward, we're seeing this Trump effect in the GOP race, this is something that could come back to haunt him in the general election with Hispanic voters, much in the way that we saw Mitt Romney's self-deportation comment during the primaries come back to hurt him.

So it's unfortunate that he's taken this path. And also, it keeps our immigration debate focused on this whole notion of border security and securing the border. That's not really the problem right now. Our border is more secure than it's been in decades. We know that from DHS, the Pew, "Washington Post," the big question that people do not like addressing is what to do with 11 million undocumented people who are here illegally.

HARLOW: Huge question.

REYES: And until we can get past the obsession of border security and address comprehensive reform, that's the question that goes unanswered.

HARLOW: Raul, thank you. Raj, thank you, gentlemen.

REYES: Thank you.

HARLOW: I wish I had more time. We'll have you on again. I appreciate it.

BHAKTA: Thank you.

HARLOW: Next, news just into us involving the Ashley Madison hack. Huge. And it keeps getting bigger now involving 15,000 government e- mail addresses. Hear what we have just learned on that.

Also, more on our breaking news on two major fronts. The number two leader of ISIS dead in a drone strike and the clock is ticking as North Korea threatens more if the south does not meet its deadlines.

Stay right here. We'll be right back.

[14:34:46]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Well, the Pentagon now interested in that huge hack involving Ashley Madison. The Web site that caters to married people looking to cheat on their spouses. What we are now learning is that more than 15,000 e-mail addresses exposed in the hack are connected to the military and the government.

Joining me now, CNN Money's Laurie Segall who spent the entire week digging into this hack. 15,000 military and government e-mail addresses. Some of them -- well all of those from work.

LAURIE SEGALL, CNN MONEY TECH CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Pretty unbelievable. Why would you even put your work address in there in the first place. You know, not all of those are real. Right? You have to say we can't independently confirm a lot of these but we have been looking at them and a lot of the IP addresses are matching up.

You know, this is a big deal because if you're a high-level authority figure you face something like blackmail if someone finds this out. Also when we talk about the military, people could actually lose their jobs if they are on this list because this is against the military's code of conduct so --

HARLOW: To cheat in any way?

SEGALL: It's not just embarrassing but now we're kind of seeing this whole new level of this hack, Poppy.

[14:40:04] HARLOW: And security concerns.

SEGALL: Absolutely.

HARLOW: Also, when you look at this, it's amazing to me what they could face in terms of legal liability, Ashley Madison. SEGALL: Sure. Absolutely. I mean, they could -- this is also --

first of all, are they going to find these hackers and if they do find these hackers, are they going to be held accountable in a criminal way? They haven't made much headway there but Ashley Madison is probably going to face a lot of suits. I mean, we're looking at defamation, you have this data breach. There are a lot -- you better that they're lawyering up right now. I mean --

HARLOW: Because when you sign on, they say your data is private.

SEGALL: They say that your data is 100 percent private. But then you look at their -- the fine writing and, you know, you can see that sometimes they hedge that a bit. Now that being said, there's so much personal data out there. People's credit card -- bits of their credit card information, they're not facing identity theft. So you better bet that Ashley Madison will be accountable in some way.

HARLOW: All right. Laurie, thank you very much.

SEGALL: Thank you.

HARLOW: We'll bring you more on that as we have it.

Coming up next, heartbreak, absolute heartbreak in Ferguson. A 9- year-old little girl shot and killed this week in her own home while she was doing her homework on her mother's bed.

Next, her teacher will join me to talk about just what an extraordinary young woman this was. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:45:45] HARLOW: Now to a vigil and protests in Ferguson, Missouri, the city that has seen police face off with protesters over deadly police shootings. But in this case, a deadly shooting has officers weeping alongside with the community they serve. They are mourning for a 9-year-old girl, Jamyla Bolden. The little girl was doing homework in her mother's bed when someone opened fire into her home this week killing her. A Ferguson officer who was there for Jamyla's last moments was overcome with grief.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OFFICER GREG CASEM, FERGUSON POLICE: I just tried to do everything I could. I wish I could have saved her. I wish I could save her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Michael Daly, a special correspondent with "The Daily Beast", wrote a touching and beautiful story about her and her family. He joins me. Also on the phone with me Jamyla's teacher Theresa Kendall.

Thank you both for being here.

Theresa, let me begin with you. I am so sorry for your loss. When you look at pictures of Jamyla, she is beaming. And she was such a good student, so driven, so excited about everything. What can you tell us about what she was like as a student and just as a little girl?

THERESA KENDALL, TEACHER: Jamyla was a joy to encounter in all aspects. Jamyla was happy all of the time. She always entered school with a smile, entered the classroom with a smile, and she was always ready for whatever was new for the day. She was a great student, a great human being, a great young lady.

HARLOW: Yes. Absolutely. Michael, you delved deep into her story in your piece. Just walk us through what happened.

MICHAEL DALY, SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT, THE DAILY BEAST: This magical little girl, 9 years old, was sitting on her mother's bed doing her homework. She's looking forward to a reading evaluation the next day because she wanted to show that she did even better than the last one and she's like -- there she is, she's like everything a kid should be, everything we'd want a kid to be.

She was like the future personified and all of a sudden these bullets tore through the bedroom window and one of them struck her and she died.

HARLOW: It is unbelievable.

Teresa, you said about her -- and I'm quoting here -- everyone knew her drive for success, academic success, behavioral success, any success, kickball success, jump rope success. How is the community responding to a loss like this?

KENDALL: Actually the community has been very, very supportive. We have had several calls and parents are coming and just expressing their condolences. As I stated before the district has a wonderful support team that is here in our building for both these students and the staff and we have just resolved to bind together in love and support of one another and I actually appreciate all of the love and support that the community has been to our school and to Jamyla's family.

HARLOW: Michael, I want to quote the end of -- one of the ending lines in your piece about Jamyla. You talked about Sergeant Fuller who we saw weeping there, who was by her side and tried to save her. And you write, "Then in uniform -- then in the uniform of the Ferguson Police officer, Fuller rejoined her fellow officers in the hunt for the killer. At other times, cops had done their worst but they now seemed set on doing better than their best."

Tell me about that.

DALY: First of all, at the school, I'm told, when you come in the entrance, it says, "Do better than your best," and this little girl would go around telling people, I'm doing better than my best today. I'm doing better than my best. And we all saw the Ferguson police at their worst, at the time of the Michael Brown. But I think we forgot that they can also be at their best. You know, when that call came in about a little girl being shot, at

least three of those officers were in there doing everything they could to save her.

HARLOW: Yes.

DALY: I mean, and you know, and this is around the corner from where Michael Brown was killed, just a street away from where people were demonstrating and chanting black lives matter. And no life in the world matter more to these officers than this little girl and the one sergeant has a 9-year-old herself. And you can only imagine how they felt trying to save this kid and not being able to.

[14:50:07] HARLOW: Michael Daly, thank you very much.

DALY: Thank you.

HARLOW: Theresa Kendall, thank you very much. I'm so sorry for your loss. She was an extraordinary little girl.

Coming up next, more on our breaking news on two major fronts. The leader -- the number two leader of ISIS now dead in a drone strike. And also the clock ticking as North Korea threatens war if the south does not meet a deadline. Stay here. This is our special breaking news coverage. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Employees crying at their desks, 85-hour workweeks, answering e-mails 24/7, those are just some of the details of what it is like to work at Amazon according to a bleak reported in "The New York Times" published this week. Amazon now pushing back very hard. Senior VP of worldwide corporate affairs, Jay Carney, saying it's not the case, saying Amazon is a, quote, "incredibly compelling workplace."

[14:55:05] Either way, this "Times" report prompted a widespread conversation about work culture especially in the tech industry. One unexpected voice has post a challenge to big companies -- break that cycle. He is Facebook co-founder, Dustin Moskovitz. He's also the co-founder and CEO of software firm Asana.

Thank you for being here.

DUSTIN MOSKOVITZ, FACEBOOK CO-FOUNDER: Thank you, Poppy.

HARLOW: It's a fascinating read. And I think it touches -- hits home for a lot of us trying to find that balance. I want to read an excerpt from a piece that you wrote about this in the "Medium." It says and let me quote here, many people believe the weekend and -- let's pull up, sorry, that's the wrong one.

All right, here's what it says. "As an industry, we are falling short of our potential. My intellectual conclusion is that these companies are both destroying the personal lives of their employees and getting nothing in return. I wish I had slept more hours and exercised regularly. I wish had made better decisions about what to eat or drink. At times I consume more soda and energy drinks that water. I wish I had made more time for other experiences that helped me grow incredibly quickly once I gave them a chance."

All right. We know you worked incredibly hard starting Facebook. You've made $9 billion off of it. Did you think Facebook would be what it is today if you had cut back a lot?

MOSKOVITZ: Yes. Thank you for asking me that. You know, I think that's sort of the hardest question here, is like, is it all worth it? Like do you have to work that hard to have that level of success?

HARLOW: Yes.

MOSKOVITZ: And I really think the answer is no. I actually think if I had worked less, if I had made more time for the things that helped me cultivate energy and be focused better and just be a more centered human, I actually would have been more effective for Facebook and been a better leader.

HARLOW: Really?

MOSKOVITZ: Been able to use my time more effectively and just formed better relationships.

HARLOW: I mean, you talk about throwing out your back in your 20s.

MOSKOVITZ: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes, I mean, those things like get in the way, too, for sure. I was -- you know, when that happens, you're basically unable to work for a week and, you know, that's my personal experience but there's also a ton of research that makes it very clear that if you work too hard, you burn out and you increase the risk of those kind of injuries as well as mental health problems.

HARLOW: All right. So let's get to some of that research. You also write in this piece, "Many people believe that the weekend and the 40- hour workweek are some sort of great compromise between capitalism and hedonism, but that's not historically accurate." And you point to Henry Ford and you point to sort of the assembly line, et cetera. But wasn't he talking about sort of manual labor on the line, day in, day out. Aren't tech jobs, development jobs, different than that where perhaps 40 hours a week might benefit you -- more than 40 hours a week?

MOSKOVITZ: You know, I think there is an argument to that but my intuition is doing creative work actually requires more energy and I think there's ever reason to believe that, you know, working too long would be even harder on people in creative positions.

There's also been a lot of research since Henry Ford. I mean, that was, you know, the early part of the 20th century and a lot of people have replicated the studies in other industries, including other, you know, blue-collar jobs like construction.

HARLOW: Right.

MOSKOVITZ: But also more recently people have even looked at this topic within industries much closer to our own, like the gaming industry.

HARLOW: Yes.

MOSKOVITZ: And, you know, you just always get the same result and it matches, you know, my personal experience and the experience of a lot of people I've worked with.

HARLOW: Well, you say that this mindset, right, that something is just wrong across the board, especially in tech companies. You say the mindset can lead to ageism and sexism. Expand on that a little bit.

MOSKOVITZ: Well, yes. So just -- you know, what I've observed is a lot of people, you know, basically in their 20s are able to work these hours for a little bit of time and then later they burn out and realize they kind of have to make room for other parts of their life. But when you're in an intense work environment, those people are being compared to people further along, might be beginning to have babies and start families and they're just not able to work those kinds of hours and raise a family and just means that they end up contrasting poorly if the way they are being measured is on Facetime and the amount of intensity and work hours, you know, they're bringing every week.

HARLOW: How do you change mindset at the top? Right? Because one of the issues is, when you work a lot, there's a perception of you that you work all the time and then if you don't, then you're a slacker. So how do you change perception at the top?

MOSKOVITZ: You know, it's a difficult problem and you know really -- like I said, I think we need to break the cycle. A lot of it is people signaling off of what has been done in the past. But we have a new generation of leaders and what I've seen is that a lot of the companies that are started by, you know, entrepreneurs that are a little further along in their career, they just build this in as a value from the beginning, they set a great example for their workers by, you know, leaving at a reasonable hour.

You mentioned a story earlier about Blake from Tom Hughes, you know, making a point of taking his paternity leave to make sure other employees would as well.

HARLOW: Right. Right.

MOSKOVITZ: So if's things like that. You know we meet Tea Party --

HARLOW: From the top.

MOSKOVITZ: Yes. Need to make it clear that this is the culture we're going for and we also need managers who will make sure to think harder about performance.