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Americans Thwart Terror Attack in France; Biden Meets with Sen. Elizabeth Warren in D.C.; North and South Korea Being Talks in DMZ; College Football Player Sentenced for Sexual Assault. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired August 22, 2015 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:12] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Seven o'clock Eastern, and 4:00 p.m. Pacific. I'm Poppy Harlow, joining you this Saturday night from New York.
We begin with an amazing story of heroism. Three Americans, two of them U.S. service members, being held as true heroes tonight.
Tomorrow, they will meet with the president of France who wants to thank them personally. Just yesterday, Spencer Stone, and Alek Skarlatos and Anthony Sadler, were just tourists, about to become heroes. All three of them jumped on and disarmed a man with a rifle, who would open fire on a train bound for Paris. That gunman now is being identified as a Moroccan national, believed to have ties to ISIS.
President Obama has already spoken by phone with the three Americans, praising their quick action that likely prevented a massacre.
CNN's Nic Robertson joins us in northern France this evening with more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: There's a big cheer as the motorcade drove them out of the police station here. They've been here all day, helping the police with their investigation, Spencer Stone getting surgery to his hand and his thumb almost severed, he led the success to bring down that attacker they successfully bought into the ground, injury sustain along the way. This is how the British passenger on the train paid tribute to these three young Americans.
CHRIS NORMAN, HELPED DISARM GUNMAN ON FRENCH TRAIN: What I would like to do, first of all, is to say thank you to Alex Skarlatos and Spencer Stone, without whom I don't think we would be here to speak to you today.
ROBERTSON: The investigation here getting more information about the attacker, a 26-year-old Moroccan. It'd been under the eyes of counterterrorism officials here in France, in Spain, also in Belgium to the north. We now know he got on the train with his weapons in Belgium. It stopped there, and on the way from Amsterdam to Paris. We understand from the Belgian authorities they believe this 26-year-
old has ties and connections to hard line Islamist groups, groups they are already investigating, and now, we understand that the counterterrorism officials believe this Moroccan had gone from Europe to Turkey, they don't know if he managed to get into Syria to make contact with ISIS. That, of course, their concern, the French authorities holding this young Moroccan at security headquarters in Paris. They have 96 hours for which they can hold him and continue the investigation. But for the three young Americans, Anthony Sadler and Alex Skarlatos, and Spencer Stone now heroes in the country. We saw it on the streets right outside the police station.
Nic Robertson, CNN, Arras, France.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: Nic, thank you for that.
French police have the gunman in custody right now, as Nic said. He will be interrogated for the next 96 hours. They are looking at the possible extremist ties.
Let's go to Bob Baer, our intelligence and security analyst, also former CIA operative. We will get to the gunman in a moment and these ties. But first to the heroes, to the Americans, the British man that worked with them to take down the gunman.
You have been trained to react when bullets start flying. How difficult is it to do with what the Americans did on the train with no loss of life?
BOB BAER, FORMER CIA OPERATIVE: Poppy, it's just amazing, the raw courage we are talking about here, the absence of panic is extraordinary. I did go through this training. In fact, the Secret Service is the famous (INAUDIBLE), how to disarm somebody with a gun, and frankly said, most of you guys are not been able to do if you're going to panic, you're going to freeze and rest of it. So, I can't tell you how courageous this act was. It's just amazing.
HARLOW: It certainly is. Let's talk about the gunman. We know his identity. Not much more. We don't know much more about him. We know his name is Ayoub el Khazzani. But now they are saying that he is likely part of a group of French ISIS fighters in Turkey. Do you read that as a lone wolf who was sort of encouraged to carry something out in his homeland or part of a larger plan?
BAER: Poppy, right now I could be mistaken but I think he was part of a larger plan. He had nine magazines apparently, and the fact that he had a Kalashnikov. They're not easy to obtain in France, the fact that he had a pistol as a backup.
He is part of a larger network. He is not one guy that went out with a hatchet or something. So, I think we are going to find other ties. In fact, he is probably connected to some earlier reports a couple of months ago where they had a shoot-out there, they were planning attacks. HARLOW: Right.
BAER: (INAUDIBLE) definitely part of a Spanish network, and the Spanish brought it to the attention of the French.
Calling him a lone wolf, doesn't look like it now.
HARLOW: All right. Bob Baer, thank you very much for your expertise this evening. Those Americans we were just talking about -- an airmen from the U.S. Air Force, the National Guardsmen, and the civilian being held as heroes around the world.
[19:05:06] CNN's Polo Sandoval reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I tried to shoot him.
POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): That's Spencer Stone, injured on board this French train after he and two fellow Americans stopped a would-be terrorist armed with guns and a box cutter. Stone, a U.S. airman, is credited with leading the charge along with Alek Skarlatos and Anthony Sadler.
ANTHONY SADLER, STUDENT: Really proud of my friend that he just reacted so quickly and so bravely. He was really the first one over there. Even after being injured himself, he went to go help the other man who was bleeding.
SANDOVAL: The three childhood friends were traveling together aboard the high speed train when they sprang into action. Stone bloodied yet determined to stop a massacre from happening. The young man had help from British passenger Chris Norman who used his necktie to hogtie the gunman.
CHRIS NORMAN, WITNESS: We have seen enough of these kinds of attacks to understand that they will kill everybody once they get started. I said to myself, OK, maybe I have a chance if I get up and I help as well.
SANDOVAL: Praise now pouring in from all over the world, but no one prouder than the friends' parents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's well within his character. He's a quick thinker. Quick decision maker.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Deep down inside, I felt really, really proud. I told them that. But I didn't tell him as much as I should have. Gosh, I am so proud of both of them, so much. The fact that they saved all those lives and had that instinct and the guts to just do what they did.
SANDOVAL: The three friends left for Europe as tourists and will return to the U.S. as heroes.
(END VIDEOTAPE) SANDOVAL: Yes, and they are expected to make that trip back to the United States very soon, but not without that praise continuing. We are told that come Monday, those three Americans along with that friend, another individual that was hurt doing this whole process, Poppy, are expected to meet with the French President Francois Hollande. I think it's more remarkable, just the level of humility. You've heard from one of these individuals earlier whose -- they don't call it heroism, and they call it instincts.
HARLOW: And you always wonder, how would I act?
SANDOVAL: Exactly. We always asked ourselves, how would I respond if there was a gunman heading my way?
HARLOW: And look what they did.
SANDOVAL: Yes.
HARLOW: Polo, thank you very much.
SANDOVAL: You bet.
HARLOW: Being held as heroes. Wait until they come back to this country, the reception they will get.
Well, coming up next, to politics we go. It's the worst kept secret in Washington. If you have not heard by now, Vice President Joe Biden may run for the White House in 2016. So, when will he make a decision and what key meeting happened today that could change everything?
A live report from our nation's capital, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:10:29] HARLOW: We saw it first right here on CNN. Vice President Joe Biden unexpectedly traveling to Washington, D.C. for a private political meeting.
So, who was he meeting with? And is it a new sign he may jump into the race after all?
CNN's Athena Jones has the details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there. We're getting the details in from my colleague, Jeff Zeleny. We know the vice president met with Senator Elizabeth Warren from Massachusetts. This was a meeting at the vice president's request, and it's interesting because Senator Warren has become something of a liberal icon. She has a lot of fans, fans pushing her to make a run for the White House in 2016. She is going to sit this election out but she has not endorsed any candidate.
And so, we don't know what Biden and Warren discussed, but we do know that Biden told his associates he is going to make a decision about whether to mount a third run for the presidency in about the next month. We are told his advisers told him he has to decide by October 1st.
We know Biden is watching the race very, very closely. He's got to see the appeal of another liberal senator, Bernie Sanders, who's drawing huge crowds, inspiring a lot of enthusiasm, and he's also got to be looking at the numbers -- numbers like Hillary Clinton's high unfavorability ratings.
Take a look at the most recent CNN poll, you can see there that 53 percent of voters have an unfavorable opinion of Hillary Clinton versus just 44 percent for Joe Biden. I should also mention in that poll, more than half of Democratic voters say that Biden should get into the race.
But, of course, it's a big decision. Running for president requires an organization. It requires fund-raising, Joe Biden feels that he would make a good president, but, of course, he wants to run to win. He doesn't just one to run to make Hillary Clinton a better candidate.
So, we're all be waiting to see what that decision is in about a month or so.
Back to you.
HARLOW: Athena, thank you very much for that.
Next, Donald Trump and the women's vote. Why he is polling so well among GOP registered female voters, and what it all means for Hillary Clinton.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:15:43] HARLOW: Donald Trump says he, quote, "cherishes women". But he's also used some unkind words about some women. He once called a female lawyer disgusting and called Rosie O'Donnell a fat loser. But he has the support of a lot of registered Republican female voters.
So, our Randi Kaye went to Iowa to find out more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Donald Trump knocking super model Heidi Klum in "The New York Times," saying Heidi Klum, sadly, she is no longer a 10.
Klum fired back tweeting this video with the hashtag, #Heiditrumpstrump.
Still, it seems no matter what Trump says about women, more and more Republican women like what they see. Even after he blasted FOX News's Megyn Kelly.
HEATHER HALTERMAN, TRUMP SUPPORTER: I don't feel like what he says about women is really degrading. I don't.
KAYE: Trump supporter Heather Halterman volunteers for his campaign in Iowa. She's heard it all. Trump writing that "New York Times" columnist has Gail Collins has a dogface, and he called a female lawyer disgusting for asking to breastfeed and at the time he called Rosie O'Donnell a fat loser.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: She came to my wedding, she ate like a pig, and seriously, the wedding cake was, like, missing in action.
HALTERMAN: He has a lot of great ideas.
KAYE (on camera): It sounds like what you are saying is what he says about women is secondary to what he could do for the country.
HALTERMAN: Exactly.
KAYE: It doesn't bother you. These other things are far more important?
HALTERMAN: Far more important, and I feel like as a mom of two young kids I feel like our country is going down the drain, and I want to make sure they have a really good future ahead of them.
KAYE (voice-over): For Heather, a good future for her boys includes building a wall at our southern border.
HALTERMAN: The overflow of people that are coming in I feel is just detrimental to this country, and the middle class is getting wiped out.
KAYE: She also like that Trump is pro-Israel, sharing this photo of herself with Trump and her friend who survived the Holocaust.
And she agrees with Trump, the tax code must be fixed and the military built up.
College student Katie Utterback has faith Trump will improve the job market, so she's signed on as his youngest Iowa caucus leader.
She likes his straight talk and says women shouldn't be ultra- sensitive to his remarks.
KATIE UTTERBACK, COLLEGE STUDENT: If you're in the business world as a woman, you're playing a man's game, you're going to saddle up your boots and you're going to have to take it like a woman, like a cowgirl!
KAYE: Still, plenty of Republican women want to hear more from Trump.
KIM REEM, PRESIDENT, IOWA FEDERATION OF REPUBLICAN WOMEN: Donald Trump has a lot of work to do in defining the kinds of issues that you know are important to women and then telling us what he's going to do specifically.
KAYE: Kim Reem says Republican women like Trump because he's not beholden to anyone and his lack of political correctness is like a magnet. REEM: I think his message of making America great again is something we all want to believe.
KAYE: Can Donald Trump really make America great again?
Even some supporters aren't sure, but the diehard Trump fans are believers!
(on camera): He's never been a politician. Could you see him talking to world leaders?
HALTERMAN: I would be so proud to call him President Trump.
KAYE: Randi Kaye, CNN, Des Moines, Iowa.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: Fascinating.
Let's talk more about it with brand expert and the DemandWerks CEO, Martha Pease.
Thank you for being here.
You just heard this fascinating op-ed on CNN.com titled "The puzzle of women voters", and it mainly compares Trump to Hillary Clinton and their strategy for women. Even if they're not going after the same women, some female voters, you know this NBC "Wall Street Journal" poll, it shows a steep decline for Hillary Clinton among women since June.
What does this tell us?
MARTHA PEASE, DEMANDWERKS: Well, it's an astonishing turn around. It's among whiten educated women voters. And what it shows from June to July, basically a period of one month, I think you just showed the numbers, that the favorability ratings for Hillary have turned on their head.
[19:20:01] That they are more unfavorable opinions of Hillary than they are favorable now.
HARLOW: Yes. And just to be clear, and this isn't GOP voters. This is female --
PEASE: This is GOP.
HARLOW: This is GOP, OK.
You point out women will provide well over half of the vote in 2016, and you think, Hillary Clinton -- this quote stood out to me is, quote, "Trying to appeal to women in an old-fashioned that doesn't work as well as it once did."
What's old-fashioned about her approach and why isn't it working? PEASE: Well, Hillary Clinton is most comfortable selling facts and
advocating policies and defending herself, and in fact, managing the e-mail story. And those strategies, those waves of communicating today are just not how women want to be communicated with by a candidate.
And there's a lot of research and a number of studies show that women take in information and make decisions differently and what women really want is to have a case laid out in front of them, full disclosure, and facts presented, then be left to gather other information and decide on their own.
HARLOW: Right. You say they want to hear a case without a hard sale?
PEASE: Yes.
HARLOW: And you think she's -- isn't Trump giving a hard sale?
PEASE: Well, Trump is selling himself. But his approach is so much, here I am, take it or leave it. I mean, his outrageousness is almost his strategy, in fact, it is his strategy. It's not just entertainment, and he tells you exactly where he stands and he let's you as a woman decide whether you're going to buy into it and whether you agree with it or not.
HARLOW: You also write Trump, quote, "is playing a savvier game. He understands that women voters are supporting nontraditional candidates. You go to say they want a president to change the game itself. Is it too late for Hillary Clinton to take a page from the Trump book in that respect?
PEASE: I don't think it's too late. I think she needs to find her own strategy to do that. It is a really telling indication in the polls that the leading candidate on the GOP side is a nontraditional candidate, and, you know, Ben Carson is there as well, and Sanders is coming up behind Hillary as well. None of those are traditional political candidates. In fact, two out of three of them aren't even politicians.
And that's something that is important because the more you have a nonpolitician in a leadership position and polls, the more Hillary is boxed into a traditional politician.
HARLOW: But she is what she is, she can't change her history.
PEASE: She can't change her history but she can change how she communicates and she can change the way that she comes at particularly women voters. I mean, women voters are both parties that I talked to have a lot invested personally in being the driving force behind putting the first lady in the White House. There's an enormous amount of commitment to that on the part of women voters on both sides of the fence.
But they want the right woman in the White House. They don't want a politician that happens to be a woman.
HARLOW: They have a female option on the GOP side with Carly Fiorina.
PEASE: Precisely.
HARLOW: Fascinating, "The puzzle of women voters". Go to CNN.com. Read it. Martha, thank you as always. Appreciate it.
Don't forget. CNN hosting the next Republican debate live from the Reagan Presidential Library Wednesday, September 16th, only right here on CNN.
Coming up next, three American heroes take down a gunman on a French train. You will hear from the father of one of them, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:26:43] HARLOW: A gunman toppled and restrained by three Americans onboard a Paris-bound train has just been identified as gunman Ayoub el Khazzani, who authorities believe may have ties to ISIS. The shooter who emerged from the train's bathroom shirtless with a rifle slung over his shoulder was taken down by a British man and three very quick-thinking Americans.
One of those Americans, Anthony Sadler, I spoke with his father, Tony, just a short time ago.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: I have to jump in with your son, what an incredible -- what an incredible man. You have heard from him since he did this?
TONY SADLER, FATHER OF ANTHONY SADLER: We're still dealing with the levels of reality concerning his involvement in this and just the fact that he was present during such an event.
HARLOW: How did you hear about it?
SADLER: I'm sorry. Say that again, Poppy.
HARLOW: How did you hear about it?
SADLER: Initially relief that he was not injured or killed, and the young men that were with him were not injured or killed, and then relief as he began to share with us the events that had taken place. Those were the initial emotional responses. It has been just wrapping our head around the magnitude of this, and, of course, parental pride starting kicking in and how we were proud of him before this, and certainly an event like this can make a parent proud. We are proud of him.
HARLOW: He's young and he is a senior in college and he said it was my last year of college and I came with my friends to see Europe and we stop a terrorist. Tell me about your son?
SADLER: Anthony, he's a nice young man. He is very personable. Likes people. Very much an extrovert. He loves his friends. He believes in enjoying life, and this trip was just an unfolding of his desire to enjoy life and see what he can be, and enjoy what he can enjoy. He's a --
HARLOW: We understand --
SADLER: Go ahead.
HARLOW: I just say, we understand that President Obama just called him and two other Americans that he worked with to bring down this terrorist, called him and thanked him for bravery and heroism. We understand he'll be going to the Elysee Palace on Monday with the French president, Francois Hollande, right?
SADLER: I know there was plans for something like that, yes. And he was excited to talk to our own President Obama as well. He is very excited about that phone call.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: I can now tell you those three Americans will be meeting with the president of France tomorrow, just like you heard there, and he wants to thank them personally for the heroism, and that call they got from President Obama today as well.
North and South Korea taking a break in negotiations right now. Earlier today, after two days of threats and counter-threats, the two countries sat down at the table and began to talk to each other rather than at one another.
Negotiators spent nearly ten hours talking at the historic Truce Village right inside the demilitarized zone or the DMZ, between the two countries.
[19:30:00] That is where we find our Kyung Lah. Talk to me about how these talks went and when they resume?
KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What we know is that these were marathon talks. Ten hours of talks at this table inside (INAUDIBLE). What we are getting as far as content, and we are hearing from South Korea's presidential office, some very vague lines. We know that the focus of it was trying to resolve the current conflict and they want to try and work on the future relationship of North and South Korea, so very, very vague.
We do expect that they will be returning to the table in seven hours. The fact, as you indicated, Poppy, that they are talking to each other is certainly a very good sign. They also sent in very important people for this. North Korea sent in essentially Kim Jong-un's right- hand military man, someone you see frequently with Kim Jong-un whenever he makes an appearance, any military showing.
He also sent his civilian negotiator, so these are very important negotiators at this table, a sign that perhaps this is going to find some sort of resolution at least the current issues. What we should point out though is that the tension here on the Korean Peninsula, at least the public posture of it, that has not changed. The propaganda being blasted over those loud speakers, that is still continuing and as far as the evacuation order, Poppy, that's still in effect, right along the DMZ.
HARLOW: And these are two countries that are technically at war?
LAH: Yes, this war never ended. The Korean War ended in an arm assist. So these two countries never came to a resolution. In fact, North Korea says they actually won the war. So this is a continuation of something that technically never ended.
HARLOW: Right. It makes you wonder what can come out of these talks, but a very good thing that they are resuming in a few hours' time. Kung Lah, thank you very much. Live for us this evening, and very early in the morning where she is right by the DMZ.
Quick break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:35:31]
HARLOW: We turn now to a sexual assault and an ensuing scandal involving Baylor University in Texas. A football player has been sentenced to six months in jail on charges that he sexually assault a fellow student in 2013, and now questions are swirling about what university officials knew and when they knew it.
Here's Nick Valencia.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sam Ukwuachu sat quietly in a Texas courtroom this week as a jury convicted him of sexual assault. The explanation for the scandal lies partly in his past.
Early 2013, Ukwuachu, a freshman all American defensive end is dismissed from the Boise state football team after a confrontation with a girlfriend, so in May of that year he transferred to Baylor University, nearly 1,700 miles away in his home state of Texas.
Baylor's head coach Art Briles now says he knew nothing of the problems of Ukwuachu's past, an issue that would surface less than five months after his transfer, when Ukwuachu was accused of an on- campus sexually assault against a Baylor soccer player.
ART BRILES, BAYLOR HEAD FOOTBALL COACH: (INAUDIBLE) is off the roster. Never played (INAUDIBLE) it's a very unfortunate situation for all concerned.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Coach how much --
VALENCIA: Baylor University is accused of mishandling the rape scandal and the university did investigate the rape but suspended the case without looking at any of the medical evidence, including the victim's rape kit.
In a statement to the media, Baylor University said "after consideration of the preponderance of evidence a decision was rendered to move or not move forward to a full disciplinary hearing." In their investigation, Wako police detectives said there was not enough evidence to make an arrest and they sent the report to prosecutors who brought the case to a grand jury.
Ukwuachu was finally indicted in late June of 2014 eight months after the incident, and speaking to reporters before Friday's practice, Baylor's coach Art Briles said he followed protocol.
BRILES: I mean, nobody is going to do that, bring somebody with a prior conviction or even really an allegation. Like I said, we made our decision on the knowledge that we had two years ago.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VALENCIA: The accusation against Baylor University comes down to who knew what and when did they know it. While head coach Art Briles said that he was not fully aware of the specifics of Ukwuachu's violent past. Over the weekend, the former head coach of Boise State said that he fully appraised Briles of Ukwuachu's disciplinary record and dismissal. Baylor University has launched its own independent investigation, it says, "to find out exactly what happened." Poppy.
HARLOW: Nick, thank you.
Let's talk more about this with CNN legal analyst, former L.A. prosecutor Loni Coombs and criminal defense attorney, Danny Cevallos.
Loni, to you first, the sentence here handed down last night just six months in jail, 10 years probation, does that seem typical for a sexual assault?
LONI COOMBS, FORMER L.A. COUNTY PROSECUTOR: You know, Poppy, there isn't a typical sentence for a sexual assault because these cases range so greatly and the context, or the relationship between the two people, the type of injuries involved, and how much evidence there is, and in this case --
HARLOW: But if it's sexual assault, isn't it sexual assault?
COOMBS: Well, yes, it is, however sometimes you can have situations where if there is not a lot of evidence, they may work out a deal. This was a jury conviction and he was looking at 20 years in prison and $10,000 fine, and the jury actually recommended eight years of straight probation and the judge said "No, I am sending him to jail for 180 days." He's going to have a ten-year probationary tail, meaning if he violates that probation any time in the next 10 years, he can be sent back to prison for up to the maximum time. It does sound light. Six months does sound light for this case when you read the victim's statement and hear the actual details of the assault.
HARLOW: Yes, and Danny, Texas Monthly did a deep dive on this case and found that Baylor University that he transferred into, never examined the rape kit, never, that was administered on this victim. Legally, Danny, was Baylor required to do that?
[19:40:00]
DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Legally, the officer of civil rights from the Department of Education and title 9 require now that universities investigate cases of student on student harassment but none of us should be surprised when that system breaks down, because number one, universities were never designed to be tribunals. They were never designed to be miniature Departments of Justice instead every university is free to investigate on their own and the only real requirement is the threat from the Department of Education that if they fail to miss any sexual harassment cases that they could lose their federal funding.
HARLOW: Right.
CEVALLOS: The only thing that makes this case different from the norm is that most of these cases and these on-campus investigations end with a conviction of the student and a suspension or an expulsion, and this is one of the rare cases where they appear not to have considered the evidence and resolved all doubts of the complainant, but the reality is why do we act surprised when universities which are simply not designed for law enforcement, when we force them to investigate these cases and try them in something resembling a court of law and using a standard preponderance of evidence, which is lower than any criminal standard anywhere in this United States, which is of course always beyond a reasonable doubt.
HARLOW: All right. I want to read this to both of you. This is, you know, about Ukwuachu, who came to Baylor after being kicked out of the football program at Boise State for a violent incident with his then girlfriend. When asked about that, here is what his head coach Art Briles at Baylor said, "in our discussions -- talking about what the other coach at the other university told him, in our discussions he did not disclose there had been violence towards women but he did tell me of a rocky relationship with his girlfriend which contributed to his depression. The only disciplinary action I was aware of were team-related issues, insubordination of coaches and missing practice. So that is, let me correct myself, and that is what apparently Ukwuachu told his coach.
All right. So Loni, to you, if he mentioned these things, was it incumbent on the Baylor coach of the university to do a background check, police reports and look at this more?
COOMBS: Absolutely. I think that's the responsible thing to do. And look these football coaches, they have the resources to do very in depth investigations but thy also are trying to put together a winning football team.
Let's be realistic about the context of this. They want to get the best players and sometimes they take players that have these questionable backgrounds and assume the risk. It's interesting that now the coach is trying to distance himself from that and say he did not know all the details where the former coach said when I heard he was interested in this player I initiated a call to him and I told him about all the problems and when they asked for a waiver, because they could have waived him. He could have played the very first year after the transfer, the coach at Boise State said we are not supporting any waivers, so that he could play earlier at your college."
I mean the red flags were there and they could have talked to the girlfriend with the rocky relationship.
HARLOW: Right and so the red flags were there, and could have, should have, would have, Danny, what kind of legal liability now is maybe this head coach of the university? What are they looking at?
CEVALLOS: The head coach more than the university itself because there's potential liability when these on-campus investigative units fail to miss or in fact miss important evidence and fail to convict someone that maybe they should have convicted, there may be liability for the university, but far more than that for the university at least is the looming threat of the loss of federal funding. The Office of Civil Rights -- I cannot stress this enough, has since 2011 essentially demanded that these universities investigate and essentially incentivize them to fine defendant students liable, and the only thing that makes this case unusual is that for the most part and these cases with the low burdens of proof end in convictions of students and by convictions I mean on campus suspensions or expulsions.
But if the university fails to investigate, then yest, lawsuits have been brought in the past against the university itself and maybe potentially the coach, but under employer liability theory, all roads lead up to the university.
HARLOW: Right. All right. Thank you very much. An important discussion to have. We will stay on this story.
Loni, Danny, stay with me. I'm going to take a quick break and on the other side I want to talk about the latest in the hack of Ashley Madison. Who could be facing a huge lawsuit?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:47:45]
HARLOW: An enormous and embarrassing hack this week. Tens and millions of people outed as customers of the infidelity site Ashley Madison, their personal information dumped under the dark web, ripe for the taking.
Laurie Segall reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LAURIE SEGALL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Let's say somebody has a wondering eye and they are in a marriage and they would go to Ashley Madison. This is a site that says we can make an affair possible.
Now this has always been a controversial night but about a month ago, hackers said that they hacked into the site and they had the data and that they were going to put it out there if Ashley Madison didn't shut down.
Well, Ashley Madison didn't shut down. Fast-forward a month later, a huge data dump, we're talking about 10 gigabytes of personal information, e-mails, phone numbers and user names, and now you have a bunch of sites where all you have to do is put in an e-mail address and you can find out if someone is on that list. You can independently confirm that. Emails are actually legitimate. You have to remember that.
But it started a huge backlash. A couple days later, there's another hug data dump, this one is nearly twice the size of the first one. While the first one had a massive amount of persona customer information, this one has a vast amount of company information. We're talking internal documents, CEO's e-mails, and we're also looking at source code.
Think of the source code as almost the blueprint of ashleymadison.com. Any hacker can look at that source code and decide they want to hack Ashley Madison. One security researcher told me that we are watching the destruction of a company is a huge black eye for Ashley Madison which really sold itself on being 100 percent discreet.
Right now as people are pouring over millions and millions of email addresses trying to figure out who is on there, spouses are looking on there, I guarantee all around the world, there are some hard questions. Ashley Madison is still up and running. Probably not going to get a lot of business.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: Laurie Segall, thank you for that.
The question is, as Laurie just said, how much business are they going to get and how long are they going to be open. You should know, two Canadian law firms have just filed a $760 million class action suit against the parent company of Ashley Madison.
So let's talk about it with our legal analysts, former prosecutor Loni Coombs and CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney, Danny Cevallos. Back with me, Loni, let me begin with you. What are the grounds for this class action case and do they have a chance of winning?
[19:50:06]
COOMBS: They do. There is defrauding them, telling them that they are secure site, they can go on here and they can be rest assured that it is confidential.
There's also the part where they pay an extra fee to have everything, all of their data wiped off. Now we have an example, even though this is distasteful information, people say maybe they shouldn't be able to sue Ashley Madison. They kind of assume the risk. We have Target, remember, the huge hacking scandal at Target. They ended up paying a settlement of $67 million to Visa and the credit card holders there for the damage that was done in that case. HARLOW: It's a good comparison. Danny, look, Ashley Madison didn't
just turnover this data, right? It was hacked, it was stolen and you are a defense attorney, and can't the company argue these were hackers, they should be sued not us?
CEVALLOS: Let me put on my defense hat for this case and what Ashley Madison would probably fall back on is the contract language. At every point somebody clicked on an agreement, do you agree to 10, 100 pages of things that you agreed to that none of us ever bothered to read. The problem is courts uphold these agreements. And Ashley Madison may have contracted away some of it's liability but it's always been bedrock law that you cannot contract away all of your liability, especially for things you do intentionally, like fraud.
So if Ashley Madison defrauded its customers, then even that magic click wrap agreement, even those contract terms, Ashley Madison may not be able to hide behind them.
HARLOW: But isn't there, Loni, any sort of assumption by the court that people aren't going to read all 100 pages of the terms and conditions? And some assumption that if you are advertising that it's totally private then the user should be able to rest assure in that?
COOMSB: Well, because they gave you the language, you are actually, when you sign it and accept the terms, you are held to that agreement that you were supposed to have read the words whether you did or not. But the reality of the situation is, like you said, in this situation, the company itself cannot just wipe away all their liability just by putting that language in there.
So even if the language was in there, and if it's a situation like this where it's so egregious where it might have been intentional that they did not wipe the data clean when they promised to with the extra guarantee, the courts can say, "look, you can't excuse yourself from that liability just by putting a few words in that very long contract that people had to read.
HARLOW: Here's Danny, what maybe the saving grace for Ashley Madison -- not that, it deserves (INAUDIBLE) but maybe --
CEVALLOS: Ashley Madison and saving grace.
HARLOW: Well, yes. (INAUDIBLE) come forward with these cases because they just put them back in the spotlight.
CEVALLOS: Poppy, you are so right. Ashley Madison has found the perfect business model for unappetizing plaintiffs and here is why. Any one who signs up for Ashley Madison as a plaintiff, as a witness in court, initially from the start, has credibility problems and they have perception or optics problems.
HARLOW: Right.
CEVALLOS: People (INAUDIBLE) are not going to like these plaintiffs because they will not agree with their behaviour and they'll assume that they're not credible people. HARLOW: Right.
CEVALLOS: Because guess why? They are on a Web site about cheating. Look this case has also required us as a society moving forward to redefine, what does "delete" actually mean when it comes to data?
HARLOW: Yes, it does. Loni, Danny, thank you as always.
Coming up next, the co-founder of Facebook tells me about how he wishes he had better work/life balance and to own it he's putting on the entire tech community right now. Our American Opportunity next.
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[19:57:07]
HARLOW: In this week's "American Opportunity," some pretty explosive allegations about working at Amazon, employees crying at their desk, 85 hour work week, answering e-mail 24/7, that from a "New York Times" report published this week.
Amazon though pushing back hard, the senior VP for worldwide corporate affairs Jay Carney saying it's not the case and saying Amazon is an incredibly compelling place to work. The "Times" article prompted a widespread conversation about work culture right now especially in the tech industry.
One unexpected voice has posed a challenge to big tech companies, break the cycle. I spoke with Facebook co-founder Dustin Moskovitz and he told me he wished he had worked a lot less.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW (on camera): Will you say that this mind-set, right -- that something is just wrong across the board especially in tech companies. You say the mind-set can lead to ageism and sexism. Expound on that a little bit.
DUSTIN MOSKOVITZ, CO-FOUNDER, FACEBOOK: Well, yes, you know, what I've observed is a lot of people basically in their 20s are able to work these hours for a little bit of time. Then later they burn out and realize they kind of have to make room for other parts of their life. But when you're in an intense work environment, those people are being compared to people who are further along, might be beginning to have babies and start families, and they're just not able to work those kind of hours and raise a family and just means that they end up contrasting poorly if the way they're being measured is on Facetime and the amount of intensity and work hours they're bringing every week.
HARLOW: How do you change mind-set at the top, right? Because one of the issues is, when you work a lot, there's a perception of you that you work all the time, and then if you don't then you're a slacker. So how do you change perception at the top?
MOSKOVITZ: You know, it's a difficult problem, and really like I said I think we need to break the cycle. A lot of it is just people signaling off of what's been done in the past. But we have a new generation of leaders, and what I've seen is that a lot of the companies that are started by entrepreneurs that are a little further along in their career, they just build this in as a value from the beginning. They set a great example for their workers by leaving at a reasonable hour.
You mentioned a story earlier about Blake from Tom Shoes making a point of taking his paternity leave to make sure that his other employees would as well.
HARLOW: Right.
MOSKOVITZ: And so it's things like that. We need to --
HARLOW: From the top.
MOSKOVITZ: Yes. We need to make it clear that this is the culture we're going for and we also need managers who will make sure to think harder about performance and to see more than people sitting at their desk, tolling away and sweating and think about the actual impact they're having as a way of measuring their contributions.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: Much more of my interview with Dustin Moskovitz on cnnmoney.com. Thank you for that, Dustin.
Up next, the king of shock television before Jerry Springer or Glenn Beck, Morton Downey Jr. screamed his way into living rooms in the 1980s and though his talk show was short-lived it left a permanent mark on anyone who saw it. The CNN original film "EVOCATUR," the Morton Downey Jr. Movie, begins right now.
