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Manhunt for Cop Killers; San Antonio Killing. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired September 02, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:00:28] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breakings news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news here once again on this Wednesday. Great to be with you. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

And we have our special live coverage of several major breaking stories. The first, this desperate manhunt to find three men suspected of killing a police officer. We have brand new developments. We're going to take you there.

Also, in the city of Baltimore today, protests are growing outside of a courthouse where right now a judge is getting ready to rule during a pre-trial hearing involving the police officers accused in Freddie Gray's death. Important movement on that story today.

And any moment a news conference is set to begin on the death of a man who had at least one of his hands raised up in the air when deputies opened fire.

But first, our breaking news from the suburbs of northwest - northwest of Chicago, just shy of that Wisconsin border. The ground search there for three suspected cop killers has closed in on one area. But as authorities just explained in the news conference minutes ago, this manhunt, it's far from over.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE FILENKO, LAKE COUNTY, ILLINOIS, MAJOR CRIME TASK FORCE: We've been following up on leads since yesterday through tonight - last night, and still continue following up on leads. We have a lot of social media leads coming in. The community has been fantastic in phoning in tips and leads.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Detectives have obtained surveillance video that may help them learn how Lieutenant Charles - Joe Gliniewicz was murdered early Tuesday morning. He was one month away from retirement, one month, after 32 years on the force.

And while there is much to say about how beloved this officer was, we also know very little about who cut his life so short. The lieutenant's last calls on police radio revealed he was chasing three individuals. He described them only by race. And when a backup officer finally arrived on the scene, Gliniewicz, a 52-year-old father of four sons, had already been shot. Here's how it sounded on dispatch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DISPATCH: Could you start for Fox Lake for an officer down, 128 Honing Road. We'll create the call?

They were responding to a report of a suspicious. A male black and a male white. It appears the officer's gun is missing now.

DISPATCH: All the county units are responding to officer down, Fox Lake, subjects are to be considered armed and dangerous. Air one has been advised.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: First, let me bring in our correspondent, Deborah Feyerick, who's been all over this since this really broke yesterday.

Tell me what, if anything, investigators have been able to glean from surveillance video from the area?

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, one of the things they're doing, Brooke, is that they're trying to get as much surveillance video as they possibly can. They're going to businesses. They're going to homes that might have private security systems. They're trying to get any sort of image of these three individuals. And - but what we do know, according to the commander of the major crimes task force, is that, in fact, they are getting some good leads. There is some forensic evidence that was recovered from the scene, the crime scene, specifically as part of the autopsy, and they're expediting lab analysis of anything that they are finding at the scene. The commander referenced fingerprints and DNA, that kind of detail that perhaps will help them narrow the identity of these three individuals.

BALDWIN: Deb, forgive me for interrupting. Forgive me for interrupting. Juggling a couple of major stories this afternoon.

Let's go straight to San Antonio here. A news conference being given in the wake of that man who was shot and killed by a police officer this week.

SHERIFF SUSAN PAMERLEAU, BEXAR COUNTY, TEXAS: And our hearts also go out to the deputies and their families who were involved in this incident.

As I mentioned at Friday's news conference, the video is just one piece of evidence that we're evaluating in this investigation. There's no doubt that what's shown in that video is of great concern to all of us. But we also want to get this right, as is our purpose in every investigative case.

We want to emphasize the importance of being calm and patient as we work through all of the evidence, witness statements, audio of 911 and radio calls, as well as piecing all of this information together. We want everyone who has seen this video to understand that a thorough investigation is taking place.

[14:05:07] We continue to work closely with the Bexar (ph) County district attorney's office to make sure that they will have everything they need to ensure they can make the right decision and the right action that are based on the facts of the case.

As you heard this morning, the FBI has opened a case which allows them to ensure the integrity of the investigation as it goes forward. We have already been working jointly with the FBI, and they are seeing everything that we have. They have provided valuable assistance to us, and we have welcomed them and welcomed their involvement this investigation.

As I've emphasized, we're working this as diligently and expeditiously as we can, but also to assure that we consider all of the evidence to determine the facts of the case. And that's what our role is in this process.

So the question is, what's next? At the conclusion of our investigation, all the information will be turned over to the district attorney's office for further review and action. And I will leave further discussion of that part of the process to the district attorney's office. And I'm glad to take your questions.

QUESTION: Do you plan on releasing the second video (INAUDIBLE) what happened?

PAMERLEAU: You know, it is part of the investigative process. What I would say, you are aware of this additional video that we have, and it covers a longer period of time prior to the shooting. It also shows it from a different angle. We have submitted that video to the Texas Department of Public Safety's crime lab, and we've asked them to review it to determine if it's possible to enlarge and slow down the sequence so that we have a much more clear view of what happened during those minutes.

QUESTION: But does it show whether he was - Mr. Flores (ph) was holding a knife right before he was shot?

PAMERLEAU: And the - we believe that Mr. Flores had a knife in his hand and that video will help us have a better idea of exactly what he had in his hand.

QUESTION: Sheriff, have you seen the video yourself, and can you tell us whether or not you saw Mr. Flores with a knife in his hand or (INAUDIBLE).

PAMERLEAU: I have seen the video. It appears that he has something in his hand. And, again, that's why we've asked the Texas DPS crime lab to review it with an aim to try to enlarge and to slow down that sequence so we have a better idea of that.

Yes.

QUESTION: Sheriff, there have been reports about this gentleman possibly looking at suicide by cop. Does any (INAUDIBLE) that we've seen, and what the evidence (INAUDIBLE), does that support this theory that this person might have been trying to commit suicide by cop?

PAMERLEAU: I think you're also aware that separately, apart from us, an organization called Broadcastify (ph) provided a - what appears to be audio of multiple scanners which has some information on it. We've not had time to validate that or compare it to 911 and radio calls that we have officially. But certainly that information has been provided to one of the media outlets, and that is out in public domain.

QUESTION: Sheriff, I have a question. If the gentlemen, Flores, was holding up a knife and the officers were talking to him, why did they shoot him in the chest instead of somewhere else when they were trying to arrest him?

PAMERLEAU: You know, in terms of - you have to think about one, the adrenaline, because this situation had been going on for quite a while. But there's also a lot of force science that addresses a lot of those kind of issues. And when individuals qualify, do weapons qualifications, it's pass or fail. And the issue is, and someone could be an expert in handling weapons, but under certain conditions they may or may not hit a target or - and that's why that - and I can't talk for that individual as well.

[14:10:32] QUESTION: Sheriff, was a (INAUDIBLE) was a weapons recovered at the scene after the shooting? Was a weapon recovered in that front area of the house where - where (INAUDIBLE)?

PAMERLEAU: You know, off hand, I - I don't recall what's in the - I don't have that information right now.

QUESTION: Sheriff, did deputies use a Taser and did that Taser hit Mr. Flores?

PAMERLEAU: There was - they used - attempted to use non-lethal force, a Taser, and the probes did not make contact with the individual.

QUESTION: Can you give us some idea, sheriff, of how many shots were fired and how many times Mr. Flores was shot?

PAMERLEAU: You want to comment on that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think we should probably give (ph) it to them.

PAMERLEAU: Yes, and that's in the investigation, and that information will come out.

QUESTION: Sheriff, the community in the country is really concerned about what is happening here. What is your message? (INAUDIBLE).

PAMERLEAU: Yes.

QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE) this issue of (INAUDIBLE) -

PAMERLEAU: Certainly.

QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE).

PAMERLEAU: And - and thank you very much for that question. The important thing is to get this right. It's important to get this right for the Flores family. It's important to get this right for the deputies involved. It's important that we get this right for all of our community and nationally. And that's what we are endeavoring to do to make sure that we're able to get all of the evidence, all of the facts, review those, put those pieces together so that we have a clear view of what happened.

QUESTION: Sheriff -

PAMERLEAU: And, you know, this -

BALDWIN: All right, so you've been listening to the sheriff here in Bexar County, Texas. This is a story that we're been covering here. This involved - this was something that initially began as a domestic phone call and there are now, as we've learned, two - two pieces of video shot from different vantage points of an individual who was ultimately shot and killed by police officers who arrived on the scene. You can see from this one video that one of his hands was up and, according to police, he had a knife in his other hand. Again, the question, what led up to the shooting? What happened during this lengthy confrontation? And why shoot and kill him?

A lot to go through. Hearing a little bit more from the sheriff. I've got former law enforcement coming on, lawyers coming on to weigh in on a story that has everyone talking here. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:17:02] BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

You just heard from the Bexar County sheriff there in Texas saying that a second video of the killing of a man by the name of Gilbert Flores, which police, by the way, have not made public, although the sheriff said yes, indeed, she had seen it, shows the suspect holding a knife as he then is shot and killed. The video, we're told, shows a different, closer angle than the one we're about to see. And just to warn you, what you're about to see is disturbing. It shows Gilbert Flores raising at least one of his hands as he's shot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, they just shot (EXPLETIVE DELETED), bro.

Well, they just cold-blooded shot that (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: We're about to hear from the man whose voice you just heard who took that video, by the way. The sheriff in Bexar County, Texas, says that that man at the time was resisting arrest. We now know the FBI has opened a civil rights probe into the case. The sheriff says they welcome that involvement. Joining me, Michael Thomas, the man who I mentioned used his cell

phone to record the video you just saw. Also I have private investigator and law enforcement analyst Anthony Roman, along with CNN legal analyst Mel Robbins and Danny Cevallos.

So, Anthony, just first to you. I think like the question is, if you have an officer trying to obviously de-escalate a situation, the individual was resisting arrest. We also know the individual had a knife on him. You have a gun. Why shoot and kill?

ANTHONY ROMAN, LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, there are reasons to shoot and kill and there are reasons to hold fire. And here are what the general rules of thumb are. If an individual is holding a knife and they're outside of your general kill zone, which is normally three to six feet. You know, if they're threatening you, you can always retreat. And if you have the ability to move back and no other civilians are in immediate threat, then it would be prudent for police officers to move back a little bit and try and de-escalate the situation, which you can see early in the film occurs.

He begins to approach them. The officers step back several steps, four or five feet, and then re-approach him as he moves back. So they are maintaining an appropriate distance away from him so that he can't immediately lunge at him. Now if he gets within that three to six-foot range, he can effectively lunge at them. And even if he's shot, he can still kill with the knife with the knife. The momentum can carry through.

[14:20:15] So now officers have to make a judgment. How aggressive is he? How belligerent is he? Is he obeying my orders? Do I feel an immediate threat to my life? But hands up or no hands up, if you have a knife in your hands, a hands up motion, is an offensive motion. You can strike that knife into someone's head, neck or chest, and it's a terrible, terrible thought, but this is what these officers are faced with. So the hands up position with a knife in it isn't reason for the officers to hold fire.

BALDWIN: OK.

ROMAN: So this is a far more complex situation than it appears.

BALDWIN: OK. OK.

ROMAN: It seems to me he's a bit farther than nine or 10 feet away, but it's difficult to tell with the -

BALDWIN: It is difficult to tell.

Apparently the second video is closer.

ROMAN: Right.

BALDWIN: You heard the sheriff saying, Mel, that in the second video it extends much more before the shooting, because apparently there was this lengthy confrontation which, by the way, we know nothing about beyond the fact that it took a little while between the officer and this - Flores. We know police are looking at evidence, talking to witnesses, 911 calls. What are you looking at here?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, let's start with the law -

BALDWIN: OK.

ROBBINS: Because as Anthony said, you said two words which are really important, "immediate threat." We know the Supreme Court has established you cannot merely shoot at somebody because they're fleeing. You also can't shoot at them simply because they're resisting arrest. Can you only shoot and have a justified shooting by the police when there is an immediate threat to the surrounding community, like you've got somebody who has just committed a felony and is taking off through a neighborhood, or you have somebody that is - that is creating an immediate threat to the police officer.

BALDWIN: So let's be specific. In this case we know police responded. There was a domestic call.

ROBBINS: Yes.

BALDWIN: Apparently there was a woman with a gash in her head and then the police are there and they see this man. That's what we know so far.

ROBBINS: And for all we know, she could be bleeding out on the kitchen floor and he's blocking their access to the house and the ambulances are waiting in bay and they're having a screaming match back and forth and they're threatening, we're going to have to shoot you if you don't drop that knife and get out of the way. We just don't know. But those are the questions that are going to - that's the test.

BALDWIN: Yes.

ROBBINS: Immediate threat is really critical in terms of testing this legally.

BALDWIN: On that point, Michael Thomas, you were there. You were the one who, you know, you were grabbing a bite at the corner store, saw the commotion, saw the police lights. You, you know, picked up your - I guess it was your phone and started taking this video. What did you see? What did you hear prior to the shots fired?

MICHAEL THOMAS, EYEWITNESS TO SHOOTING (via telephone): Well, I was too far to actually hear the conversation and I had the windows up, so I couldn't actually hear what they were saying back and forth. But I just kind of kept watching and kind of - they were just going back and forth by the vehicle, away from the vehicle, and he kind of just - and it looked like he kind of just stepped back and I guess it looked like he was kind of just giving up, kind of surrendering like I give up and just stepped back away from him.

BALDWIN: Why do you say surrendering, because you saw him throw his arms up?

THOMAS: Yes, ma'am. That's - that's the most reason because usually that means surrendering, just you give up. BALDWIN: Let me pause when you hear them - I mean by hearing

surrendering, that is one person's interpretation, right, Anthony? From afar one would think you're putting your hands up saying, all right, I'm not - I'm not going to resist anymore, what have you, but it could also, to your point, be a motion prior to who knows what with a knife.

ROMAN: To the charge.

BALDWIN: To charge.

ROMAN: To a charge. And he could have said, I'm going to kill you, and at that point they decided, we don't want him lunging at us. He's too close. We don't want that momentum carried through to us. We feel an immediate threat and, therefore, we're going to fire upon him.

BALDWIN: OK. Danny Cevallos, let me bring your voice in. I know you - you wrote an opinion piece for us here at CNN about how this evidence, how this video evidence could play out in a courtroom, what's admissible and what's not.

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, video evidence is terrific because for the most part it's going to be admissible and probably - you know, we always hoped it would be better than witness testimony because we know now the science is in. Eyewitness testimony and our frail brains are horrible witnesses, and our memories are very feeble. But when video came about we thought, oh, now we'll find out what really happened. But it turns out even video might not be reliable because of what's called perspective bias.

And this is a classic example. You have a video that is shot from a great distance with very important events obscured, and the question we all have to answer is, do we see enough in this video to conclude one way or the other whether or not this was warranted deadly force, or if given more information from a second video might we re-evaluate? And, remember, force experts will tell you that it takes about half a second to draw your weapon, half a second to decide what you're going to do, maybe more. In one or two seconds, a suspect can close 20 feet relatively easily. And if he's brandishing a knife, if we find out that that's the case, then that becomes an important factor leaning towards the police in supporting their decision to use deadly force.

[14:25:24] BALDWIN: Well, according to this sheriff, he had a knife, according to a source in to CNN, it was a knife that is hidden behind the pole that he's holding in one of his hands when he has his hands up that you can't see.

Danny Cevallos, stand by. Actually, Mel and Anthony, stand by with me as well because I have more breaking news here because any moment now a judge in Baltimore getting ready to rule during this pre-trial hearing in the Freddie Gray death, hear what just happened in the courtroom as protesters gathered outside the courthouse.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:30:04] BALDWIN: Breaking news now out of Baltimore. A judge today denied motions to throw out charges against those six police officers accused in the death of Freddie Gray.